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Computer for a 9 yr old

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by onbliss

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I plan to introduce computers and programming to my 9 yr old. He uses (rather plays) computers at his school and daycare; but my wife and I wanted to wait for some years before getting him interested in computers. This way we were able to inculcate a great reading habit into him. He is a voracious reader.

I would like to get (build or buy) a simple and less expensive computer for him. If he has the aptitude then maybe sometime in the future we could look at other upgrades or newer systems.

Apart from programming, he might use it for playing games, and an internet connection would be necessary for downloading programs and software.

What are your suggestions for hardware and software?

I was looking at KPL (http://www.kidsprogramminglanguage.com/kids.php). Any thoughts?

And, thanks for all suggestions that are going to pour in.

167 replies

by gadgetgirl

already. I thought the gang would have been on this one like bees to honey.....

(are they all asleep?!)

Ok, from me, a nice little piece of software:

http://www.familyfirst.com/pc_tattletale.html

I'm not saying he'll do anything he shouldn't, don't get me wrong. It's a good way to keep any eye on him though, on the basis that boys will be boys. Remember the internet these days is the old equivalent of Playboy!

I'm thinking it's a good way for you to track back bad downloads; where he could have picked up something nasty (!) as well as what he's doing on the net. You can also teach him safe surfing with this: you can also show him how to search without fear of hitting the "wrong type" of sites - - - -

the example I use in my presenters mode: We have a swimming pool in my area with an unusual name, which brings up 8.3 million hits on Google search, all but one are porn sites. Why? Because the name of the pool is (wait for it.....) Wet and Wild.....!!!

This program can be hidden, so if you wish, your son doesn't even have to know it's there. It's good back up. I actually use this at work. It's the only way I can allow "certain people" to access the internet safely and provide evidence of what they have/haven't accessed.

(Remember I work in a mental health Trust, with a secure unit. Nuff said?)

The only problem with this program is that *some* AV programs detect it as a KSL, and demand its' immediate removal. (Who said Symantec? .... whoops....) so if you decide to use it, drop me a line and I'll tell you which one doesn't.....

I'm absolutely no good on hardware, so I'm afraid this is my only contribution! Having said that, I'd recommend you save yourself some money and go with Open Office as your office program. I've been using it for a while now, and have found very few differences between that and M$ Orifice, and have had no problems with it. It's so similar it shouldn't cause any problems even if he's using Orifice at school. They're THAT similar.

My last suggestion: he needs to be able to "break" things without fear of death by father, so I suggest you start of with a lot of second user bits and pieces first. That way there's no comeback if it does break.

Is he going to be building this with you? It's a great way to learn and understand computers and networks. I wish I'd done that! - my usual comeback comment at work is "I can talk a good network, but I wouldn't have a clue how to build one......"

Hope this helps - and the rest of the gang get their act together and join in!!!

GG

by keith hailey

There was a time that it was cheaper to build your own computer. Today, for what most people use them for, you can usually find something off the shelf that fits the bill.
Personally, I would look at computer surplus sites on the net. usually you can find really good deals on systems that businesses have traded in that are only a year or two old. For dependability, look for workstation class computers (any used Dell Precision with dual Intel processors). Look for as fast as you want to pay for. With a gig or more of memory.
TigerDirect has refurbished units, which can be a good deal. I'd buy a refurb in a heartbeat at the right price.
They have pretty good deals on new systems regularly and if you subscribe to their email notifications, you see great deals every day or two. If you want to build one, they have components and barebones kits.
There are all kinds of places online that carry all you need.
But, it's hard to say for a 9 year old. Anything under 1 ghz is hard to find software for anymore (except maybe online).
And don't forget your local pawn shops, too. Just make sure you get a reciept.
Or, you could just go ahead and get that dream machine that you want and hand yours down. ;) That's what I did with my grandkids and my niece and nephew. They will probably get this one, too, in a year or so.
Take care.

by onbliss

...these days, we can find something that meets our needs. I just do not want to go overboard and buy/build something too fancy. As a .net programmer it is no brainer to choose a PC for me - I like to have all the memory, CPU and hard disk I can get :-) I was unsure about the entry level computers for kids.

by onbliss

...I am not good at hardware either :-). That is one reason I posed the question. I was more looking from the perspective of software programming and computers on a whole. He is a book worm for now.

"Is he going to be building this with you?" Wow, now you have introduced a good thought into my head :-) I was not planning to do that. See there is benefit in posting questions in this forum.

by keith hailey

I'm just the opposite. Great at Hardware but I can just spell Program.
Now, Starting a 9 year old out building a PC and then teaching him to program, I can see the potential there. But putting together only one PC will help, but if you set goals along the way, like,planning to build another one in say, a year or so, It will help to get him to look at things from both a hardware and software perspectives.(not to mention you'll learn, too)
It's really not a hard task, though it may seem daunting at times. There is so much "Stuff" out there.
I'd look at Building at the ends of the trends, like right now, instead of building a Vista monster, I'd Go with a P4 or Athlon XP-ish processor to base it on. Prices are coming down steadily. Then, in a year or so when you build another one, you will have something that makes a great back up, gift to a niece or nephew, or a good way to learn to sell on ebay.
Another way to look at it, is go even more behind the trend and pick up a used P3 system. I gave my grandkids my dell Precision 410 workstation, and at 550 mhz and 512 mgs, I could do everything that I do now and they love it because "Grandaddy gave it to us".
And I'd look for OEM versions of XP. They usually expensive. You don't get a book, but they don't make 'em like they used to, so why pay extra for a pretty box and a pamplet.
Or you could really get crazy and start him on Linux. . . .
Enough of that, These may help

Tiger direct also has good help articles on building and such
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/category/category_tlc.asp?CatId=31

This is a better source for memory, good prices, too
http://www.kahlon.com/

And there are literally hundreds of places online to get parts.

And a place to test it online to see how you did

http://pcpitstop.com/

Another option Would be to go to Dell and look at there refurbs.
I really wouldn't dwell a whole lot on what type, really. He's 9 years old. And a computer is a computer.

And who knows, he might decide that he likes reading "Real" books much better than fiddling with computers at all. All you can really do is help him to find what he was born to do and just enjoy it along the way.
Take care. Hope this helps.

by hal 9000

Let him play as he wants to on the computers that he gets to use at school and the like. Don't even allow him access to one at home under any circumstances as this is harmful to the poor child!

Take one very long good look at him and then add up all the money he has cost you to get to this stage. It will be at least several hundred K so if you want to make the little sod pay you back for all the trouble inconvenience and cost that you have been put through try to keep him away from computers for ever. Only allow him access to one when he's at Uni Studding to be a Brain Surgeon then when he's finished his Internship you can continually hit him for money and keep insisting just how much good that you have done for him as look at where he has ended up while you have made all the sacrifices for him to get there.

I have a 10 year old Nephew who a wiz on computers and loves to play games On Line but otherwise has no interest in actually fixing the things only in playing with them. The machine that he uses predominately is a fairly late model P4 with all the high end stuff and an ADSL Modem connected as that is the fastest available where his parents live. He's been using computers for about 4 years now and has gone from a 1100 AMD with 128 MEG of RAM running 98 SE to something very close to a Top of the Range Gaming System running XP Pro with all the bells & Whistles.

And worse still I had absolutely nothing at all to do with this for some reason it was recommended that to help his Hand Eye Coordination they buy him a computer to play simple games on. He's turned into a monster that continually wants more & more in the way of hardware and at the moment he's still only playing relatively simple games On Line.

As for his Hand Eye Coordination there is absolutely nothing wrong with that as some of the things that he can do with the keyboard go beyond the normal Highly Skilled IT Person. Though to be fair he still walks into walls and things like that but I still believe that's more because he can not be bothered looking where he's actually going and is far more interested in where he has been.

Col

by hal 9000

[i]Let him play as he wants to on the computers that he gets to use at school and the like. Don't even allow him access to one at home under any circumstances as this is harmful to the poor child![/i]

This is what the Social Workers in the Child Welfare industry will tell you to do. Unless of course they have a vested interest in which they work at selling something that they insist that are absolutely necessary for children to have.

[i]Take one very long good look at him and then add up all the money he has cost you to get to this stage. It will be at least several hundred K so if you want to make the little sod pay you back for all the trouble inconvenience and cost that you have been put through try to keep him away from computers for ever. Only allow him access to one when he's at Uni Studding to be a Brain Surgeon then when he's finished his Internship you can continually hit him for money and keep insisting just how much good that you have done for him as look at where he has ended up while you have made all the sacrifices for him to get there.[/i]

Children are expensive and only get more so the older that they get. My youngest is 32 this year and still runs home to get daddy to fix things for her. I've long since given up hope of getting any return on my investment in this monster. Actually Both Monsters as instead of repaying me for everything that was provided for them they continually continue to return here and ask for money or for me to fix things for them. Naturally they don't supply the parts that's my job.

[i]I have a 10 year old Nephew who a wiz on computers and loves to play games On Line but otherwise has no interest in actually fixing the things only in playing with them. The machine that he uses predominately is a fairly late model P4 with all the high end stuff and an ADSL Modem connected as that is the fastest available where his parents live. He's been using computers for about 4 years now and has gone from a 1100 AMD with 128 MEG of RAM running 98 SE to something very close to a Top of the Range Gaming System running XP Pro with all the bells & Whistles.[/i]

Actually I thought that this was fairly self explanatory. These little monsters get together at school and check out the specs of each others home computers then go to their parents and claim that they need something better to do whatever it is that they do on the computers but it's only [b]Keeping up with the Jones Mentality.[/b] They Network much better than us poor adults who are too busy earning a living to actually have the time available to get information for so many different sources.

[i]And worse still I had absolutely nothing at all to do with this for some reason it was recommended that to help his Hand Eye Coordination they buy him a computer to play simple games on. He's turned into a monster that continually wants more & more in the way of hardware and at the moment he's still only playing relatively simple games On Line.[/i]

This was suggest in the strongest terms by a Social Worker in the child welfare industry to help the child improve at school.

[i]As for his Hand Eye Coordination there is absolutely nothing wrong with that as some of the things that he can do with the keyboard go beyond the normal Highly Skilled IT Person. Though to be fair he still walks into walls and things like that but I still believe that's more because he can not be bothered looking where he's actually going and is far more interested in where he has been.[/i]

This little monster [b]Ham's it Up[/b] and is incapable of concentrating on what is presently at hand unless he's playing a game on line. He continually looks everywhere but where he is going is selectively deaf when it suits him. Generally does as he pleases and then blames everyone but him for what happens to him.

This child when asked what he wanted for dinner a couple of years ago while his mother was changing the new born baby looked directly at his mother and said [b]Boiled Baby.[/b] :D

Or a while latter while in the bath waited till his mother got worried because he was too quite and when she got into the bathroom he was lying face down in an overflowing bath tub. When his mother pulled him out and started giving CPR he burst out laughing which made his mother so happy. :(

Then there are the things that these lovely things repeat that are supposed to be confidential and [b]Continually Drop you in it![/b]

As for the computer that he uses they started him off on a 1100 Duron basically something similar to a Pentium only a lot faster. That only lasted for a few months the CD ROM only lasted a few days as apparently CD's and Jam [i]I believe that the Americans call Jam Jelly[/i] covered fingers don't mix to well. I'm still not sure how he managed to do this but he somehow managed to feed the computer bread covered with strawberry jam. When it stopped working the first time when I opened the case I found about half a loaf of bread thickly covered with jam inside the case and naturally a very dead M'Board & Power Supply.

He kept destroying CD's at an alarming rate because sticky little fingers and CD's don't make a good mix. The drives didn't fare much better either as he managed to trash quite a few of those as well. Then he moved from playing games on CD to On Line Gaming where again his [b]Network of Fiends[/b] had told him all about several On Line Gaming Places devoted to children his age so he just had to play these sites. His mother took a quick look and thought that they where safe as they where just games for children, what she failed to notice is that they where playing each other and when one pulled of something special or won a game they talked to each other in [b]Real Time.[/b] Not so great for a 8 year old without any idea of who he was actually communicating with. Places like that while good for children are also dangerous and unless you know exactly what is going on the children can be placed in [b]Harms Way[/b] without you knowing about it.

Why will a child refuse to speak to a stranger face to face by will open up completely on the Internet?

If the child asks for a computer by all means get him one or upgrade either your's or your wifes and give him the old one to use but make sure that he's always fully supervised when using it and that if he gets one of your's every bit of data has been transfered off the HDD and deleted otherwise it will end up as Public Domain Information.

If you don't want to upgrade your existing computers buy an Ex Government one from one of the major resellers who specialise in these you'll pick one up quite cheaply and you don't need to go overboard with something that may never be used. If the child wants to play they will but you never force a child to do something that you want them to do and they are not really interested in doing.

At 9 years old they will not really be interested in writing any programs in any language they may like to use the thing as a Games Console but not as a tool for something. When they get older they may be interested in writing programs but when they get to the Mid Teens they will be looking at writing Porno Games.

Also never allow any child unsupervised access to the Internet one 15 year old downloaded the construction plans for the F16 and printed them as a Science Project in his school newspaper with a Commodore 64 years ago.

Todays equipment is far superior and they have the ability to get into places that are not healthy places to be particularly since 9-11 where they will be treated as terrorists first and children second.

Col

by daveo2000

Just don't ask him to play chess if your name is Dave. He will only play you next to the air lock. :D

by onbliss

...great information and insight.

As I said, my thought is to just introduce him to computers from a technical point of view. My wife and me, both being programmers, have sought to keep him away from computers knowing how addictive it is :-) He rarely^n (rarely to the power of n) gets to use it at home. He gets to play video games only on the weekends and holidays (or real long car drives). Books, TV and travel have kept him occupied.

[i]And who knows, he might decide that he likes reading "Real" books much better than fiddling with computers at all. All you can really do is help him to find what he was born to do and just enjoy it along the way.
Take care. Hope this helps.[/i]

Can't have said it any better. For now he leans towards being a Zoologist :-) though he does not even realize how gifted (unlike his dad that's me :-) )he is in music and mathematics.

I appreciate your posts. Thanks a bunch.

by daveo2000

Don't forget the "computer as tool" approach. You can't get away from computers in this "brave new world" but you can get away from "computers as the end product" mentality that too many of us have.

If he is good at music then make sure that the computer is a fairly good one and buy a copy of Finale and a Midi keyboard with lots of patches in it. He will be able to write music on the screen, learn where the notes go and how to compose multi-part scores.

Ok, maybe Finale might be a bit expensive for him at this point but you should get the idea. The point being, get him something that lets him enter music on score sheets and assign instruments to them.

by onbliss

...I will buy you a beer. That is one heck of an idea. I do not know anything about Finale or Midi...but you have given new wings to our thoughts (my wife's and mine). We were planning to stop at Walmart or someplace and buy him a keyboard. He has been learning recorder at school, and been able to practice it on the recorder and his toddler's brother's xylophone.

by tig2

He's 9. Get him something easy to use- Win98 is screaming to mind but XP Home is fine. Purchase a second-hand through the local paper or resale shop. Peer me for some names and locations.

Keep it simple to start, add complexity as he matures.

by tig2

I have friction burns on both ankles from my snowboots- remember the blizzard? Walking aggravates them and I can't seem to get healing scabbing to begin.

One of these days, we have to meet up. You can't be too far away- I am working downtown just now. We should do lunch. I know a great Greek place on the skyway if you are also downtown.

I am using a machine for Linux testing just now but will have it available to anyone as wants it in the next two to two and a half months. If you feel that you can wait, it may be a good answer.

by danlm

we kind of went overboard, and got her a laptop. Glass of water spilled, fried. The second computer we got her was a 500 dollar best buy. For what she is doing, it works. My daughter is 14.

Now, my daughter loves to draw. When I kick in with the x for the next computer. I will probably recommend that we get a good one so that she can load good graphic programs for her drawing.

Starter computer. Desktop, they are cheaper. Easy to fix. Easy to upgrade if interest by your son dictates.

Just my suggestion.

Dan

by neon samurai

My little one will get my current laptop in a year or two when she's ready. I only "really" need to upgrade my notebook now but by that time I'll "definately" need to upgrade the notebook.

I'm pretty confident jam fingers and a glass of water or two won't hurt it being a toughbook 27 though. When I first got it the demo was to boot it up, start a defrag then toss it from waste hight and jump up and down on it. I believe Panasonic's marketing tended to put it under running water while turned on or run over it with a half ton truck.

Eitherway, I better start saving for the CF28 or later style number now unless I'm going to downgrade when it comes time.

by onbliss

:-) so you are saying don't get him a computer?

Yeah, we did not plan to leave him unsupervised. I wanted the ability to block access to the Internet when my wife or I was not with him.

by hal 9000

The less that you show then the safer that they are. Kids of that age already have an extensive Network of Fiends who will lead them astray and they don't need help.

Really it depends on what you want to do and what you are attempting to teach the child. When they get to that age most of the Children's Programs have been used and are no longer apporate for them. Sad But True and the Learning Software that is available they are not interested in using as that eats into their [b]Play Time.[/b]

Then you have to remember that the child has you wrapped around their little finger and you'll eventually have to give in and allow them what they want as they are worse than [b]Nagging Women[/b] till they get what they want.

Both of my children are incapable of repairing what they break and that's just in software one is 32 and the other 34 this year or so I'm told that they continually run home to Daddy and get him to fix their messes. They no longer even make a phone call as I'm a wake up to them by the way that they first speak to me when they want something so the [b]Sorry I'm on my way out[/b] no longer works. :(

The last time that I got hit by one of them I returned home to find 5 computers sitting on the floor with [b]SWMBO[/b] ready to tear into me for allowing them to be brought over. Apparently they are still attempting to play one off against the other and as yet haven't realised that we are up to speed and know when this is happening. :D

What will happen is that if you have the intention of getting the child interested in programming you'll find that you are writing the programs for them to play with and they will be giving copies to their friends at school to play with as well. They are crafty little Sod's and run rings around their parents for quite some time to come yet.

I got rid of mine when they where approaching 20 but today the children are staying home longer to bleed their parents Dry while they have a [b]Great Time[/b] at our Expense so the trick is not to make it too enticing for them to stay at home. I saw a story here where one girl who's approaching 35 is living at home because she can not afford to move out. This is because she's currently paying off 5 investment houses so she stays at home rent free and Bulges off her Parents who she's bleeding dry with her actions.

Personally I think that we as parents have made things way too easy for our children these days and there is no incentive for them to strike out on their own any more, as they see things it's easier and less trouble to stay at home where everything is done for them than moving out and having to clean up after themselves.

Col

by keith hailey

She had a modem run in by lightening one time and, yeah, I bought her another one. But, I showed her how to open up the case, pointed things out to her, showed her how the card went in, how to ground herself and let her put the card in. She put the cover back on and then I stood there and let her run the installation software.
Well, I got a call a few months ago and she was so proud. She had, on her own, taken out a defective CD drive and put a new one in but couldn't get it to be recognized and wanted to ask me before she took it back to the store. I had her check to make sure the IDE cable was seated right, and that was the problem.
I was so proud of her that I bought her a bunch of memory last month. And I even put it in for her (but I did make her watch).
She's 27, and she has a 9 and 7 year old that I gave my old computer to.
I think I know what my project this summer will be. On the rainy days, anyway.

by onbliss

...I have a 8.5 year old, and you have 30+ years old :-) So you have the experience on this one.
As a parent I am just trying to open different worlds to him. I got him into reading books, my wife ensured he did all his homework + extra academic stuff, we allow him to play video games only on select days. We wanted him to stay away from computers as much as possible.

Who knows he might dislike computers :-)

by dawgit

It's a given that your young person is going want to join the rest of society pretty soon, not to mention emulate Mom and Dad. Quite natural. My suggestion would be to find an old, used, computer, (Not too old mind you, a couple of years should do fine. But not more than two years old.) And have your son (?) (re-)build it new, -WITH You. (the key here) Take it all apart with him, or let him do it, and you watch, help. Than re-build, from scratch, up to an operating, complete computer. He will be proud of 'his' accomplishment. And more important, he will remember 'his' 'first' computer for the rest of his life. And the time you two spent together doing it too.
Priceless.... :) -d

by keith hailey

He can learn about the way dust builds up over time and how to clean it all up. A two year old machine should have enough in it to really make an impression.

Most folks don't realize what a vacuum that their computer is and that dust is the #1 enemy of Electonics.

Mainly how dust build up:
1) decreases the cooling efficiency of the fans by coating the fan blades
2) restricts the airflow through the CPU heat sink fins
3) acts as an insulator to trap heat within the individual IC chips
4) is probably the #1 killer of power supplies and motherboards.

(NOTE: Ground yourself to the case before doing any of the below. Electrostaic Discharge (ESD) is no friend, either)

It's easy to clean the CPU fan blades with an artist paint brush.(Go ahead and take it off and get both sides. That way you can get to the fins, too)

The power supply fan is a little harder, but at least get to what you can reach. If you are comfortable removing the cover go ahead and get the dust out of there, too. (be careful around capacitors. They can wake you up really quick)

You can use a 1 inch paint brush about 3 inches long to get down into the Heat sink fins.

For the individual ICs, the artist paint brush, again(blowing alone won't get the dust film off).

Then finish up by blowing it all out with canned air. (This can raise quite a cloud, you might want to go outside to do this)

If you teach him about periodic maintenance like that, that system "should" still be running even after it becomes obsolete.

They used to teach us "Take care of your equipment and it will take care of you."

Again, I think that's a great idea. :)

by onbliss

...are there any good recommended books out there in the market for building PCs? Or maybe some literature on the internet that I can print out, perhaps?

by onbliss

Like GG suggested! Building a cheap and working computer with the son looks inviting as a summer project.

Except that I would have to read up all about hardware - especially me being the programmer variety IT professional :-)

by hal 9000

It's really quite easy when all is said & done but for reliability you need to follow some basic Anti Static Precautions so make sure that you are not working on any form of Carpet that will cut down the Static Build up that comes with all forms of Carpet and I would suggest initially Second Hand Ex Government Parts so you can be reasonably sure that you'll have a relatively new System and that it will be reliable though not necessarily upgradeable to a massive extent.

Look at Intel CPU's & Chip Set M'Boards if you can find MSI, Gigabyte, ASUS, ABIT or the like so much the better. RAM is pretty much straight forward and as SD RAM is so cheap now you may even want to consider picking this up new so something like Corsair or Kingston RAM would be excellent though what most of the parts suppliers have will work OK and if you do get a RAM problem it will be interesting for both of you to track down.

With the Intel Chip Set M'Board you'll not have any problems with plug in card incompatibility unless you start to fit TV Tuner Cards then with something like a BX440 Chip Set you could have a problem. But as far as things like Video Cards and the like go it's all Plug and Play with out any potential Compatibility Problems to deal with.

You can pickup a second Hand case but I would really suggest installing something like an Antec True Power Power Supply as they protect the internals much better than anything else that I've ever used. Or even better buy a New Antec Case with it's own PS already fitted. While at first this may appear extravagant these are strong cases without sharp edges which can cut you if you are not very careful. Many of the cheap cases will leave some very deep cuts on Little Fingers and will be hard to put the side covers on when the time comes.

Keyboards and Mice are cheap and easy to pickup new so unless they have some Keyboards with Liquid Protection second hand it would probably be cheaper to buy new.

About the only thing left is what type of Monitor are you interested in? The CRTs will be very cheap and will give good results for quite some time but you should never open one of there as they are really dangerous and can quite easily kill someone. Things like LED Monitors are more expensive don't always give the correct colours but on the up side don't take up much room. But if knocked over may break and the liquid inside them is a Health Hazard. If you manage to drop a CRT monitor it will most likely stop working but will not be dangerous. Which ever way you go you want to see the monitor running before you buy it just to make sure that it's actually working properly and check that the controls are not turned all the way one way as that is an indication that the thing is on it's way out and will not last long..

If you want to know anything else drop me a PM and I'll help you out as much as you need.

Col

by neon samurai

I'm currently bouncing OS through VM looking for an introductory system for my own little one.

OLPC's Shugar is good but unavailable outside the project. There are pleanty of people daydreaming about a buy two get one deal to support it though.

I've had a few Linux distros with children's X window managers or themes over major window managers recommended. Though I think a full desktop is too imposing for an introductory system. Your little one has been banging on a keyboard already so a simplified KDE or Gnome theme may work well if you choose *nix.

For programming langauges, I still think Turing is a great introduction but mostly because that's what the schools where using at the time. It's dos based if you can find an old version and license kicking around. I'll have to look into kpl though; if it's the modern update that'd be the place to start.

I'd be curious to hear what you finally decide on. Like I mentioned before; I'm in the same boat but a few years up stream behind you.

by dawgit

At least SuSE does. the DOS package comes with it. As for the window manager, GUI, I think the Gnome set up is pretty simple for most kids. (just my HO) -d

by neon samurai

FreeDOS is past v1.0 now and there's always been a few DosEMU with Linux. The trick is still finding a legal copy of Turing editor and compiler binaries then finding an old Turing text kicking around.

Though, you could also activate DOS and Windows binary support in the kernel and run either natively from the cli also.

by keith hailey

About a year ago I think I saw it and it was only about $12. I've still got 2 copies of it around here somewhere. And win3.1 and Win 4 workgroups. They coud probably use a new home. Except I'm not sure how they would work in a P3 or 4. I haven't tried it. It'd be something to see win 3.11 cruising at about 800 mhz or so.

by hal 9000

They all go into the control centres of heavy machinery like computer controlled Lathes, Milling Machines and the like. The smallest lathe that they use has a 25 foot bed and then they start on the big ones.

They have 1 armature winding machine that literally takes up acers of floor space with all the different wire reels that can be feed onto the system and this kills off the control components at an alarming rate for some reason. Personally I would have thought that the Lathes with all the cutting lube and shavings would be harder on the electronics but for some reason the armature winder is the hardest. At last count I think there are something like 85 DOS 6.22 Licenses tied to that thing but at $60.00 AU per copy it's not worth upsetting M$ in not buying a license.

But I use the Athlon's 64 and DOS Fly's along on these with out a problem. Even the smallest stick of RAM that I can buy new today is more than DOS has any use for but it works though you do have to install some software between the OS and the HDD so that it can be used. I think that I used a 2600 AMD last time and that thing just idles under full load of the machine and is underused to hell. But when you throw some diagnostics at it they get eaten up and spat out faster than you can enter them.

Col

by tig2

An oldie but goodie. I have unfortunately gotten rid of my A+ stuff but can give you a line on where to find it.

by onbliss

...to meet. No I don't work in the downtown. But definitely can get there. Good luck with your training, and is the URL for donation in the other discussion thread?

by keith hailey

I was talking about doing it with my grandson, who'll be 10 in may, and my grandaughter, who turned 7 last October. I usually take them maountain bike riding whenever I get up to north Georgia. But, I think this summer I may just line up a computer project up for them.

I posted earlier that I gave them my old work station and that they love it. They don't get to use it very often. It's rationed out on a rewards basis and supervised with no internet connection.

So, I think a good rainy day project of opening it up and cleaning it out with them will be right on time. The 7 year old will probably pick it up faster than the 9 year old, though. She can focus whereas his brain always seems to be "out there somewhere". Oh, he's smart, just kind of like Hal9000's nephew. He gets preoccupied and is likely to walk into a wall and the occasional tree every now and then(and has a cast on his arm to prove it).

And I really appreciate your original post. It's really got me thinking about how kids are only little for a short time. Thanks.
Keith

by now left tr

Linux is so easy to use remember (or so I'm told) :-)

Actually the real reason I got in to computers was through the systems supplied to me by my parents - ZX81 upwards. The thing is however that in order to get things to work pre 2000 in a computer required considerbale more work on the user. Even games on a Windows 95 computer required a whole lot of work just to get them to start.

Today they 'generally' just work.

by steffi28

So I dont know if anyone has mentioned this or not yet, but http://www.alice.org/ is supposed to be (I havent tried it) really good for starting young kids off on programming. Hope this helps a bit

by onbliss

It looks good. I will keep this in mind.

Seeing the caricature of a girl on the website made me smile. My son is at that age where he is not keen to befriend girls or be associated with girls. I keep chiding him how in another few years he would have a totally different perspective :-)

by steffi28

Hope it helps a bit, I remember being that age myself and hating boys, although my dads reaction was a bit different, I remember it being something like, make sure it stays that way!! Why oh why dont we listen to our parents advice :p

by hal 9000

I'm going through this with my sisters kids now the oldest is about 10 or 11 and they just have to come over to my place to play computer games across the LAN and On Line at the same time.

I've yet to run across a young child that isn't memorised by computers though maybe a bit of reverse Physiology may do the trick here push him onto the computer and make him use it maybe he'll grow to not want to use it. But as I've said I've yet to see a Kid who doesn't want to use a computer even the oldest Nephew who was forced to use a computer for a supposed Hand Eye Coordination Problem can't get enough of the things.

I'll swear that if allowed they would play on the computers here for days at a time and only would take a break to go to the toilet but they wouldn't sleep at all.

Col

by onbliss

I agree with your wisdom and insight. Just watching my son's interest in TV and Video Games makes me believe you. Maybe I can teach him cricket and he can represent USA in another decade or so in a World Cup :-)

by hal 9000

When I'm at that site which about 5 years ago replaced all the machine tools so this lot is going to be in there for a very long time as it took them the better part of a year to strip out the production floor recable it and then move in the new machinery and iron out the bugs. They make Generators/Transformers and the like for the Power Generating Industry here and apparently these pieces of machinery are [b]State of the Art[/b] or so I'm told but they are big monsters. The metal preses which stamp out the plates that end up being part of a transformer of Armature are massive and they are feed automatically till the area in front of them gets filled up then someone has to move away that bunch of stampings.

When I go there I don't get to spend much time in the actual offices and for some reason the engineers involved don't want to discuss [b]Trade Secrets[/b] though for the life of me I can't see what they are actually protecting as everything is pretty straight forward once you get over the size of everything.

But if judging by the equipment that they use is anything to go by and the engineers who work there and design this stuff I don't think that I would be too far out of line in saying Basic. I'm constantly telling them how to do things but am not allowed near any of the active design stuff. If one of these machines breaks down I have to fix it with a supervisor hanging over my shoulder telling me what I can and can not open.

However the engineers that they employ don't know any machine languages as none of them are bright enough for that, they may know all that there is to know about what they make but when it comes to the computers unless they can sort of read it in English I don't think that many of them wouldn't get to far.

Col

by now left tr

Explain this quote as I don?t think you can design Generators & Transformers?

What right do you have to question these peoples intelligence?

Pings of the Arrogant.

by neon samurai

I hear the Linux kernel is swarming through the embedded market but there's still a lot of companies buying Dos to run cashh registers and whatever else like your laiths.

by hal 9000

You are female and just out of a sense of self righteous Indignation you do exactly the opposite of whatever a male ever tells you to do. :p

But don't worry about it you can not help yourself it's hardwired into your brain to be disobedient and totally disregard the advice of your elders. Now if your father had of told you to chase boys you would have become a Nun and never even thought about Boys again in your life. :D

Col ]:)

OH Incidentally anyone have a Schematic for a Female it's been so long I've forgotten what to look for. :(

by steffi28

If my dad had told me to chase boys I would of smiled a huge grin said thanks and turned out worse than I am!!

I only didnt take his advice when I of course knew better, if it was what I already thought then of course I'd make the most out of it :D

by hal 9000

And today neither of them drink a drop. Well maybe a glass of Champaign at weddings and the like but never at any other time and they always only have the one. :p

I'll bet that you would have turned out radically differently if I was responsible for your upbringing. :D

[b]No Scratch That Idea/Thought[/b] the last thing that I need is another so called adult running home for me to fix their problems. :(

Col ]:)

by daveo2000

I am sure that you have gotten lots of really good posts so far but I will just add in my 2 cents worth. I have two kids (7 and 9 yrs) and last year bought both of them computers. Lately I have been buying all of my parts from a company called NewEgg (http://www.newegg.com).

I bought a barebones system + AMD CPU, 1G RAM, hard drive, GE Force video card and an OS for each of them.
BB System = $80
AMD Socket 754 2800+ = $27
1G RAM = $70
160 GB HD = $55
Video = $30 (several in this range)
OS either XP or the new mess = $90

Adds up to around $350
Plus shipping & Tax

It is a serious system that will also work for limited games (fine for Lego Star Wars and Bionicle). I figured it was a good price.

by onbliss

I have been to newegg.com few times. But not bought anything from them, yet :-) OS seems to be the priciest of them all!

Thanks for your suggestion.

by daveo2000

The Lego Mindstorms system, if you haven't checked it out yet, is robotics for kids. You can program it on the PC and transfer the program to the control unit.

There is a development kit called NI LabView at http://zone.ni.com/devzone/cda/tut/p/id/4435 but it looks only to be available for Windows right now. That could limit your choice of OS if you want to go that way.

Does your son not like Star Wars or not like Lego Star Wars? The game is really cool and I doubt if you need to like StarWars to play it and enjoy. On the PC it is a 2 player game and requires that the two players HELP each other (and NOT to compete! :0 ) Bizarre concept, no? ;)

by daveo2000

Actually, I posted it below. The price turns out to be about $350 if I did my math right. That includes $90 to MS for XP.

by daveo2000

As you suggest, the biggest lesson is that computers are "hammers" (tools). They are a means, not an end.

I started my kids out on old Dell throw-a-ways back when they were about 3-yrs old. I gave them Dr. Seuss spelling and word game programs, the Mia series (math, science, reading) and a variety of otherwise annoying to grown-up learning games.

My 9-yr old is now a wiz with fractions and geometry. His teacher keeps complaining to him to show his work and my son just says that there isn't any work converting from 32/64ths to 1/2 so what work does she want him to show?

I must admit he is now addicted to RuneScape (web based game with lots of other kids) but he is learning about economics and how others may try to make a raw deal for you.

Other than that, they can actually go for a day or two without computers and play with the Legos. And, no, they don't get to use the computers before homework is complete.

As a side note. Make sure that you make them quit their programs mid session some times so they learn that losing data in the middle of a game is not fatal to their long term mental health. :) Most of the time, kids will feel obligated to finish a "chapter" or such before quitting. That can take a long time!

by onbliss

...that post offers a great tangent (in my mind). My cultural background is definitely where parents (especially the moms) are so protective of the daughters. I wonder if this is a universal attitude of parents - over-protecting daughters more than the sons?

by steffi28

My dad and his girlfriend have not long had a baby, hes just turned one my dad is already talking about how he cant wait until he is 16 so they can go out together looking for women!! Now I was at least 17 before I was allowed out on a date and then he had to be brought home and vetted! My dad didnt find out I was dating my husband until we had been going out nearly a year, my mum is very good at keeping secrets :D

But you said you think it is more the mothers who are over protective of daughters, I think its more the fathers, as my father said to my 16 year old sister when she brought her new boyfriend home, be careful I remember what I was doing at his age!!

by daveo2000

Hey, Col, you just gave me a great idea!

In the process of doing this, keep some old bad parts (or ask friends for some) so that you can "break" the system and get the idea of [b]troubleshooting[/b] going too! For instance, what do you do if memory goes bad? Or if a hard drive fails partially? What if a monitor cable goes bad and the screen shows a horrid shade of maroon?

By swapping in some bad parts, you can have a "Clue" game IT style. :)

Hide and seek for bad parts :D

by hal 9000

Though I would only suggest Video Leads that are separate from the monitor as I don't think that it's safe opening CRTs.

But I have a Monster M'Board here if anyone wants one it's a Socket 370 with an Intermittent Zener Diode. I nearly went crazy finding out exactly what the problem was and It would be a good learning experience.

As for Bad RAM, HDD's Optical Drives and the like I have plenty here if anyone wants to take on the problems. I wait till I get a big enough amount and then take them to the Government Approved Recycling Centre but I can quite easily push out a few to others if they are interested. About the only thing that I don't have is faulty IE Leads as these get destroyed before they somehow find their way back into something.

Col

by hal 9000

I only tell you what pieces of mine that i want moved and you have to move them. Then if you cheat. :^0 :D

Col ]:)

by daveo2000

You want to limit the poor kid to playing Pong? Baaaaad willywarmer.

Actually, that might be a good way if you want to teach the kid history and reasons. Most of the script kiddies today know "how" to do something but not "why". Once you start talking to the new generation of "programmers" and mention "resource management" they get a little glazed-eyed. After all, why would you care about managing memory and disk space when you can buy it for so little. And if things slow down, throw more CPUs at it. Problem solved.

Starting on something small might be good to teach limits on resources.

Did those machines have components? I remember, above, he was talking about taking parts out and re-assembling it as another element of teaching.

by hal 9000

I'm sure that the airlock is deactivated and Space Welded shut so you should be safe. :D

Actually I used to have to repair the Vic 20's to component level a while ago so yes they do have parts but probably not the thing to teach on. Where as something like a 286 with a Vesia Video Card and IO Interface would be a different story.

Do you remember M'Boards before they had the IO Interface built onto them? :^0

Col

by hal 9000

Perhaps I should have added that when I attempt to explain a problem to them their eyes glaze over and they look for the first chance to escape.

No I'm not talking about hardware but the ways to program the machinery to do what they want. The moment that I start to talk at the Machine Code level the conversation ends and I'm not the one who ends it. If they don't want me to help them why ask?

I don't claim to know what they do from the math point of view but when it comes to programing the machines I have better qualifications. But the point is that they ask and when I answer they loose any need to know anymore.

[b]Here's a simple question for an electronic systems. You have a car Fuel Injector that opens and have a CRO [i]Sorry I'll expand on this jargon CRO means Cathode Ray Oscilloscope[/i] Trace showing from -12 V DC to + 12 V DC with a sine wave initially swinging from the -12 to +12 and diminishing down to eventually nothing when the injector is fully closed. Now how does a 12 Volt System generate a 24 Volt swing on a 12 volt appliance or if you like it better device?[/b]

I can talk some of the more advanced electronics to these people but the moment that I start suggesting ways to improve something at the Machine Code Level they loose interest.

Incidentally your right I do not [i]design Generators & Transformers?[/i]

But I do have a degree in Electrical Engineering so if anything I think that it sounds very presumptuous of you to make out that I'm in any way deriding anyone. I didn't mention names or the company who they work for or anything about them but I did teach a couple of them when they where doing other work before they ended up here in high paying jobs doing what they like.

The simple fact of the matter is that while these people are very capable but they are not very computer literate. If I said the same thing about Surgeons or Lawyers would I be questioning their intelligence by saying that these people don't know the first thing about computers to them all that the computers on their desks are is a tool that is supposed to work?

Just because you work IT doesn't mean that every one knows as much as you do about your preferred job. The same applies here these machines are a means to an end not the end itself. Once you realise that does it still sound as if it [b]Pings of the Arrogant?[/b]

Col
[i]Edited to add[/i]I'll give you the answer to the above question but unfortunately while it is a fairly basic Electronic question it relies on a lot of Maths to explain so I'm unable to devote the 3 or 4 weeks to fully explain to your level of understanding how the answer applies and is brought about. You'll have to search that one out for yourself at your own pace. I'm not being arrogant here either I just don't have the time to teach you the basics involved in Electro Magnetic Theory.

by now left tr

in the context you used it in?

"However the engineers that they employ don't know any machine languages as none of them are bright enough for that, they may know all that there is to know about what they make but when it comes to the computers unless they can sort of read it in English I don't think that many of them wouldn't get to far."

I determined it was more associated with intelligence and not the lack off computer skills. You may mention computers in the paragraph but the overall meaning was not portrayed, to me, as such.

by hal 9000

I didn't expect rickk to want an entire Book written to answer a simple question that had nothing at all to do with the original question.

By bright in this context I mean [b]Computer Literate[/b] [i]in the sence of programing or scripting skills[/i] to these people they are tools not the end of everything. From my continued business with them I believe that the original programs for the computers that drive the machines that make the devices that they make are supplied that way by an outside Software House or someone like that. I don't know as I've never asked. Plain & Simple.

However if this means anything I'm the one that they keep calling back there and none of my staff who are equally as qualified as me if not more so. They seem to like the fact that I can explain in words that they are familiar with why something happens the way that it does and not just tell then this is the way that things work.

Is that good enough?

Col

by hal 9000

I just didn't expect to have to go down that far with a massive explanation for something that is really unimportant. :p

But have you worked out why a Electronic Fuel Injector develops a 24 V DC swing on initialisation yet?

Col ]:)

by now left tr

This relates to an electronic switching module that can directly be mounted without any modifications, instead of the electromagnetic DC relays used in various vehicles.

The ESM consists of a plastic casing protecting said module against the external environmental conditions, an aluminium block preventing over-heating of the electronic circuit, a semiconductor switching element transistor, a printed circuit card on which the electronic circuit elements are arranged, a cover wherein said printed circuit card is placed and the contacts to provide the connection to the power circuit.'

Ta-da

by hal 9000

[i]This relates to an electronic switching module that can directly be mounted without any modifications, instead of the electromagnetic DC relays used in various vehicles.

The ESM consists of a plastic casing protecting said module against the external environmental conditions, an aluminium block preventing over-heating of the electronic circuit, a semiconductor switching element transistor, a printed circuit card on which the electronic circuit elements are arranged, a cover wherein said printed circuit card is placed and the contacts to provide the connection to the power circuit.'[/i]

I didn't mention anything about the complete circuity involved just the Fuel Injector which is an Electro Magnetic device with 2 wires going to it to force it open in an oscillating mode over a fixed period of time depending on what the various sensors within the Vehicle tell the Control Unit is needed and then is computed and the results sent to the Injector.

OK I'm being overly simple here as there are always Banks of Injectors involved in the current crop of modern cars so half of the available injectors are open at any one time but you can measure the voltages used at the individual injector and in the case of any Electronic Fuel Injection system you always measure from a Base of -12 V DC with a upper limit of +12 V DC which shows a 24 V DC Swing on a 12 V DC system.

The Electronic Fuel Injector is a simple electro Magnetic Device that when opened fully breaks the power through a switch at the top of the injector that is lifted off the contacts by the internal ram and then starts to slam shut till the circuit is returned and the process begins again but on the second opening the Electro Magnetic has to stop the closing of the injector by arresting the Kinetic Energy created by the unit loosing power and starting to close. But at the initial Engersation of the Electro Magnetic is the give away here. As Electro Magnetics work slightly differently to other methods that electricity is used.

Actually the same applies to the primary windings of a Coil in a Kettering Ignition System or what many people call a Points Coil Ignitions System.

So all you have is a lot of wire wound in the way that it's required to be to create a Magnetic Field and both the Fuel Injector and Coil work on the same principals. though they do different things.

Now no more help. :D

Col ]:)

by daveo2000

that the field collaping around the electromagnet generates its own voltage in the other direction. I probably am not using the right terms but is that in the neighborhood?

by daveo2000

You know, the 5-slot IBM boxes? RAM was soldered on the mother-board and you could buy a full-length, full-height ISA card to add 384 K of RAM to bring the system up to a whopping 512 K! Oooh, Ahhhh!

Before that, I paid more attention to component stereos and guitar amps (in the "real gear" area) and heathkits (in the "playground"). :)

Thinking back to when Radio Shack and their staff actually understood what a resister was and what it did... Those days are gone . :(

by hal 9000

As I remember they where on up to the 486 M'Boards. They looked like a ISA Socket with an additional socket soldered on the back of them with a gap between the two sockets.

On the original IBM's there was a separate IO Interface that was on an ISA Card with 2 IDE header pins and another for the Floppies which back then where all the 5.25 inch and they had a [b]Massive 50 MEG[/b] HDD in them which was considered as unfillable. Even when I started buying PC's the first one was a 486 and I demanded to have 8 X 16 MEG RAM Sticks and a 100 MEG HDD which the person behind the counter refused to sell to me as the RAM could never be fully used and that 100 MEG HDD was impossible to fill. Took me about a month to fill it and then I needed another one.

They tried to flog me a RAM Drive which was horrendously expensive back in those days and it was only 100 MEG Capacity minus the RAM which didn't work.

Actually I think that I've got a Promise Technology Vesa IO Card that allowed a Massive 4 GIG of HDD Space to be mapped as well as quite a few of the Vesa Video Cards which I used while most people used the straight ISA Video cards with a much lower colour rating I seem to remember that the Vesa Video Cards could display 16.4 Million Colours which was much better than the then current ISA cards which still had RAM measured in KB's.

OH the [b]Good Old Days[/b] of hardware incompatibility and needing to set the individual IRQ's and DMA's on every bit of hardware that you used. I think that I'm going to be sick now. :D

Col

by keith hailey

You got me to thinkin back to. . .

NOT buying a Commodore 64, TI99, or even an IBM XT because none of them had hard drives available at the time, knowing weren't going to be around long because I used a Sperry-Univac in my test station at work.
Once you get used to a whopping 10 Meg Hd with a 10 Meg removable hard disk for different programs, there is no way that you want to sit aound loading parts of your program from 4 or 5 floppy disks then saving to 3 or 4 more.

. . making the plunge (and first steps to a divorce(But Honey, it was the display model, and they were getting rid of it for $500!!) I just couldn't pass it by!) with the Amiga 2000. 80 megs of HD in two 40 meg partitions and 8 megs of ram. Did my first modem install in it, too. 2400 baud of screamin' through the BBS world (Member of "The ComPost-Top of the Heap"), checkin' out posts on Fidonet, shareware, midi music, pictures and "Paint Shop"(which ultimately led to what I do most now) and good conversations with all sorts of tech and scientific types without getting flamed or ridiculed, and viruses were mainly a rumor or a prank you played on your buddy(Anybody remember "The Screamin' Skull"?).

. . trying out a Mac emulator card and blowing away a real Mac on benchmark software while listening to music and downloading a file on the Amiga side. That was cool.

. . learning to partition on my buddies first 40 Meg HDD Due to DOS being limited to 32 megs(ver 3.2 was brand new). We didn't have a clue about DOS (I could spell it and my buddy could spell "Clue", i.e. team work)or IBM compatibles, but we had a book and a will to do it (which you certainly HAD to have. I've been known to be Hard Headed)

. . Loading windows 2 on a computer in the shop and deciding that it REALLY sucked. (OK, what can you "Do" with it? You mean it can only beep? Where are the colors? Man, it to forever to open that window. Forget this.)

. . when people were trying to sell their XTs because of the "286". Then their 286's because the 386 "was here!" At last, Multi-tasking would be available to the IBM world!
(OK, Where's the sound, Jim? You gotta get a WHAT? Why? No video, either? Huh? Who conned you into this, anyway?)

. . the arrival of Windows3.0 (eehhhh, I don't know. Maybe MS is catching on) then 3.1. Then Windows for Workgroups 3.11 (wweelll, maybe...)

. . not being able to find much in the line of appliction software for the Amiga because the most of the developers that really saw the potential were the Germans and college kids that wrote really cool games. All the other programmers seemed lured into the huge money sucking magnet of IBM compatability. Industry driven. An amazing concept. (Question: If half the money put into making IBM compatabilty WORK had been put in to something that already worked (i.e. Amiga) where would we be in computing today? In business today? Beam me up, Scotty?)

. . Building my first IBM Compatable, 386DX @33 mhz with a Compat math coprocessor and 2 megs of Ram (Hey, Ram was EXPENSIVE) with a Soundblaster card, 512K VGA card, 80 Meg HDD, a 5 1/4 Floppy and 2 3.5 FDDs, DOS 5.0 and Windows 3.1.

It was on. Sure, I could do more, better and faster on the Amiga, but it didn't sound as cool as all that stuff I just said.

And to this day I kick myself for getting rid of that machine. It took a 2nd generation pentium at 233 mhz with 64 megs of Ram running Windows 98 to finally do a little better than what I was able to do on the 8 mhz Amiga 2000. Go figure.

I learned a lot and spent a lot of time and money on the way, though.

Thanks for the memories ;)
Keith

by onbliss

I will check out the things you have suggested. The problem (?) with my kid is he has to skip a grade; and his teacher has been highly recommending. He already goes to the 4th grade Maths and Reading. And he has been able to cope with them. Now he is kind of neither here (3rd grade) nor there (4th grade). The teacher feels he has to get into the 5th grade for him to get challenged/engaged/motivated. On one hand it is nice to know that my kid is doing good at school, but promoting him to the 5th grade would put him in a league where his classmates could be anywhere from 1.5 to 2 years older. I am little nervous about the interactions, bullying and other challenges.

Anyway I wanted to get him into something else in the summer. He would be doing the traditional YMCA stuff during the holidays.

by daveo2000

PLEASE make sure (as I am sure that you will) that he is [i]emotionally[/i] ready for 5th grade. I know what you mean about intellectual challenge but you have reason to be concerned about the emotional challenges.

He will be a 9 year old trying to be buddies with 11 year olds and that goes against the laws of big-kid-ism. My kids are 2-1/2 years apart and are definitely in different social circles. My older son has, has a better "ingrained" sense of math and grammar than many high-schoolers. He also likes younger kid things and believes in Santa. The older kids would eat him alive.

What we finally realized was that we needed to find a more challenging school but keep him in the same grade.

My suggestion (as if you don't have enough suggestions already) is to think of school as a social education facility and try to find external means to satisfy his intellectual needs. Talk to him, if he is up to it, and explain that most schools are for average people. They have to be. You have to learn the average stuff as well as the neat stuff. Then, look around for a Gifted and Talented curriculum or a Kumon center or some friends at a local University that would help you come up with extra projects that he can do if he does the "boring" homework that school requires. Maybe this will also teach him patience which is sadly lacking in modern society.

Disclaimer: These are the ramblings of a madman and may or may not have anything to do with your specific reality. They are applicable in mine.

by onbliss

...my concerns - especially he is kind of a good kid :-) Teacher wondered about his maturity factor when skipping grades. One problem with external challenges or coaching is that he would start considering the school to be boring. Kids being kids, he is also likely to start showing-off & disturbing others. We have had complaints from the teacher that sometimes he just [b]blurts[/b] out the answer without waiting for his turn.
He was selected as one of the participants for mentoring talented kids in mathematics. Employees of Lockheed Martin come to the school few times a month and encourage and urge young kids in the field of mathematics.

Definitely you are not rambling. I can easily relate to somethings that you say. Maybe I am rambling too :-)

by hal 9000

He's on the right track but from the wrong angle. When you have a Magnetic Field in a case like this collapse you produce a flow of electrons in a secondary winding like what happens in a Coil.

But when you apply power to the Electro Magnetic as it creates the Magnetic Field it also produces an effect called [b]Back Electron Motor Flow[/b] which resists the flow of electrons through the wire and this increases as the strength of the magnetic field grows.

Hence you get what appears to be a 24 V DC voltage swing on what is a 12 V DC system.

Now that you have the answer Dave would you care to explain the process? :D

Col ]:)

by now left tr

Once again....

But there you go.

Asks a question in a subject they have clearly studied (no doubt for more than 3-4 weeks!) and then attempts to make others who have not (studied in any way) look stupid. Perhaps I should do the same, some time in the future, with a subject I have studied (without being arrogant - in the sprit of things).

by n

Hi, as a teacher of ICT to 5 to 11 year-olds I know they do FAR more that just "playing" - so that got me interested in replying to this post!
I know I have taught 9-year-olds to write, film, edit and present short video documentaries this year on saving water. We have created moving story books (using powerpoint) and used dataloggers to record the temperature of a pot of hot water and a cold water pot over several hours (we also manually logged the temperature with a thermometer as a comparison). We also work with bee-bot robots and the older roamers, program using flowcharts in Flowol (traffic lights most recently). We use the BBC websites which have some excellent models related to science... there is so much we use computers for - and hardly any of the children I teach are really interested in what's in the box, just so long as it does what they want it to do!
As to personally, my 2-year-old has access to a Linux PC attached to our TV. She's developed excellent mouse control already (something I am working on with 6-year-olds at school) and loves simple games...

by onbliss

...you live in Great Britian, right? Maybe the curriculum is different there. I have asked him what he does in the "media" room at school. He says mostly play games or read on the computer - I assume they have the education ones. He has not mentioned anything like what you mention; at least not using computers. I periodically ask him his schedule at school, what he does and when he does. My wife drills into the academic part in detail. I hover around the general stuff.

thanks.

by tor

An adult of my acquaintance wants a basic, "The Model T", computer. I am waiting for the first eco-green-boxes being developed. However, no computer's utility and capacity lasts more than about a half hour before we want it to do more. Kids may find the limit even earlier!

I agree there are lots of things most boxes (and laptops) do that we never use. So stop the foolishness and get a standard system for the kid. He'll ap[preciate it and you will too, espceielly if it keeps demand for upgrades and new things to a minimum for a year or two.

Of more concern to me would be how easy is the new system to crash and how easy is it to fix. Mac/PC; Windows/Linux; desktop/laptop; these are the only important decisions to be made. Afterwards it is all whining and second guessing and depreciation.

Why should kids be any more protected from technology than the rest of us? It is their future.

by daveo2000

If I am not mistaken, Col is at least a little older than I am (but not much). One problem that some of us seemingly cranky gumps have can be traced back to falsely assuming that somebody else already understands what we are talking about. It leads to frustration on the part of the person we are talking to and a total breakdown of communication.

Having learned from that (years earlier) we end up going the other way and allowing for the lack of knowledge on the other person's part and explaining "down" to them. Most of the time this works because the other person (we find out) really doesn't know what we assumed that they don't know.

Then comes the few times that the person we are talking to really does know much of what we know on a subject (as you seem to indicate that you do) and that person gets defensive.

I am willing to give Col the benefit of the doubt on this that the engineers know their standard part of the process but [b]choose to be ignorant[/b] about the programming aspect of it. I would get frustrated too as I am sure you would if you honestly try to help somebody in their job and they go [i]Patrick Star[/i] on you.

For instance, if I was to talk to you about a specific element of putting a [b]shift kit[/b] into a GM automatic transmission, I would not expect you to understand how planetary gear sets figure into the equation. If I was to relate doing this in a conversation with Col I wouldn't even use the term [i]putting in a shift kit[/i] because he probably knows that with a Turbo 350/400/455 the process involves plugging a few holes, leaving out some o-rings and drilling some passages larger. Sure you can put in a "kit" valve body seperator plate but it is cheaper if you just know which holes to change.

I expect that Col would understand this last bit without much (if any) explanation. I don't currently expect you to understand it without some seriously long background discussions.

Now, you could try to change my level of explanation in one of two ways: [b]Hey, you are a lousy git thinking that I am so stupid.[/b] or possibly with [b]Don't worry, I used to rebuild transmissions as a hobby in High School.[b] (Yeah, there are other ways but I am simplifying here.)

Just keep in mind, Hal is old. He is lonely. He has been floating around in that ship ever since the monkeys discovered the monolith. And there are only so many times you can sing "Daisey" to yourself.

by daveo2000

Laugh no more. We have become them. :(

And, Col, yes I do remember VESA slots, I just forgot that they were called that. I used to (in my ignorant ways) call them "long ISA slots". Dopey me.

I also had one of the early IBM PCs (with only 5 slots) with 2 full height floppy drives. ComputerLand offered to install a whopping 10 meg hd in one of the bays and they would "keep the floppy drive for my convenience" for about $1,000. My first mail-order upgrade was a MicroScience 10 meg drive for $600.

by hal 9000

But I've never touched one of those Slush Boxes 4 speed Mercedes Yes quite often but when I was working with Joe Public Cars I got lucky and didn't have to mess with those. But I do understand what you are talking about.

Actually TTM I wasn't trying to be condescending but to properly explain why this is so takes a lot of maths and from my experience not many people are all that interested. Even the term [b]BEMF[/b] is confusing for many people and is something that many Electrical Engineers totally forget about all together till it comes and bites them on the Bum. :D

Incidentally that was a simple explanation as I don't know your level of understanding of these things would it have been better if I had of explained it as a Fourth Year Electrical Engineering Student would like to talk about it? I've been caught out many time over the years because I expect people to know more than they do. Similarly I've also answered some questions in far more detail than they need or want to be answered.

At one place that I worked I was asked to explain what an LED was. Now this is a fairly simple device a simple PN Junction that when energised emits light. Even that simple description was way too much for what was required as no one knew what a PN Junction was and what the person who asked the question really wanted me to say was [b]A Led is a Light Without a Filament[/b] which while being technically correct is not a great explanation of an LED.

The same as the above explanation for the Fuel Injector isn't a very good explanation of how it actually works as it ignores all the maths involved to show you exactly what is happening but most people can understand both of these devices by the simple explanation and you do not need to devote any time to how Silicon is Doped or how or what a PN Junction actually is or any of the Optics involved in actually making an LED that we see every day. These days I don't expect most Computer techs to know what a CRO is either because they are so rarely used these days so I wasn't intending the explanation of what the letters CRO stand for as a put down just an explanation of the test tool, even then it's not a very good explanation as we are using [b]Digital Storage Oscilloscopes[/b] these days and I haven't seen a straight CRO around for a long time but as so many people know what a CRO is or at the very least can look up Cathode Ray Oscilloscope with a simple search and find what they exactly are quite easily if they do not already know.

When you either teach or train people you have to work to the lowest common denominator which is unfortunate but necessary as far too many people just never understand what it is that you are talking about so you have to [b]Keep It Simple Stupid[/b] or you are not understood.

You might not believe this but I swear that it totally true I handed one guy a screwdriver and asked him to undo the screws on a cover and he just looked at me and wanted to know what was expected of him as he had no idea of how to use a screwdriver. Or when I was working for Ford travelling around to their various dealerships I ran into an apprentice who had just returned from his Fourth year college stint and when I asked him what he had been taught he just said Ignition Systems so I said something along the lines of [i]So You Know all about Kettering Ignition Systems do you?[/i] To which he replied no we didn't touch any of that fancy stuff that you are here to show us how to fix we only where taught the Points/Coil Systems. Out of the 25 odd mechanics that where there only 2 knew what a Kettering Ignition System is and this is something that has been in wide spread use for at least 90 years now, so even the ones who went through the better training where not taught the names of what they where working on. So if your average mechanic doesn't know this why should I expect others to know what I'm talking about if I don't make explanations along the way?

OK?

Col

by hal 9000

I used to work for IBM on the Main Frames when the XT hit the streets and like any good Main Frame Tech I laughed at the PC's as the joke that they where.

Then I got handed one of the first portables that where ever made to carry around with me all the time it was the size of a not so small suitcase and had everything built in including a Green Screen Monitor and sound. I never looked inside it but it most likely had a Z80 or something similar driving the thing.

Granted I would love to have it now but back then I couldn't wait to see the end of the thing as it was horrendously expensive so we had to always carry it with us and make sure that there was no possibility of any damage being done to the plastic case.

But sometime back then I picked up a Stallion Network Device which consists of 2 IDE Cards and some very heavy wires that run out to a 15 COM Port device with a 1 KHZ CPU on it. I think that this was the first networking device ever made and I've somehow managed to keep this one all these years. Probably because once it was no longer useful I couldn't give it away to anyone. Then I found a new use for it when I got some smart Ass young Kid I would just point out the box and say go set that up will you and establish a 15 station LAN locally so that I can do some testing latter. The looks on their faces when the opened the box and pulled out the contents was great and the 5.5 inch Floppies never went astray either as this was long after the 3.25 Floppies had become the norm and we where using Token Rings or maybe just starting out with the 10 T Base LAN's if the customer had a lot of money.

I've never actually set one of those things up so one day when I have a lot of time I'll give it a try, that's if I can forget about Procrastinating about other things and get them done so I have some free time. :D

Col

by chaz15

Older, now outdated motherboards/ CPU's etc are not easy to find as in short supply!! Also if they fail, then big bits, eg RAM will also need replacing.
So start looking at the cheaper end of the more modern system components. If you want to build, rather than buy (?) then you need to find out compatibility between CPU, motherboard, RAM, video card, hard drives etc.
I'd stick with a system that supports non-sata drives for start. You'll need an OEM OS,
WinXP is good. Put a good power supply in, and choose a video card that supports DirectX 9. The main problem with the build option is if anything doesn't work or isn't connected correctly.
A larger case is handy for space to work and updating hardware. A DVD rewrite drive is also a good choice.
I've a Gigabyte S series board with an AMD socket AM2, and an AMD Sempron 3600+ processor. I use an Nvidia Geforce 7300 video card and 1Gb system RAM.
For a budget sytem, it's very good and runs practically anything I throw at it. Obviously frame rate suffers with latest top end games, but again, not many want to run these at ultra high resolution. I'd also recommend at least a 17" LCD monitor.
This sort of system has good initial capablity and will grow with your son's computer use and education.
Anything much cheaper has flaws that are more obvious. In any case, in 7-8 years time he will probably want something more sophisticated!
If you could afford to upgrade this sort of system, look at the video card. The Nvidia Geforce 7600GT card is really quite fast!
Good luck!!

by e-ringtech

I introduced all my kids to PC's when they could understand how to use a mouse. (4 or 5 yrs) I?ve been in IT and working with PC?s since 1980. (First IBM?s) We only let them use education programs like Learning Company, Reader Rabbit series, etc.

My son really took interest in PC,s. One November, when he was 9, we logged onto Egghead and Tiger direct to order all the parts to build a pretty cool PC. The sides of the case are clear so you can see the components; we added multi-colored lighted cooling fans and neon cables. ($400 to build our own pretty high-end machine).

For Christmas he wanted an OS so I purchased the full release of SUSE Linux. (Wanted to keep this on the cheap) With all the open source applications available, I?m surprised people give all that money to Bill Gates.

The day after Christmas he had it the Linux OS installed and running. He spent passionate hours learning everything there was to know about Linux, and some of the more popular Linux applications such as Apache Web server, MySQL, PHP, and others.

Now he has assembled a good reference library mostly made up of the 'For Dummies' Series, I also purchased a copy of Visual Studio for him last year. He is now twelve, has his own web server installed at home, has three PC's including a laptop he uses for gamming. He is current on hardware technology, knows what the future technology roadmap will bring, he knows how networks are setup, including routers and switches, what their functionality is, he is familiar and can do some basic executions with Visual Basic, C+, Visual C, His latest venture is learning how to program Java.

He has really become a prodigy. His teacher in his computer class comes to him for assistance as well as other faculty at his school. I look for him to make a career from technology. He wants someday to be bigger in the industry than Bill Gates. He is already made plans for running his own business, aspirations to attend MIT, and is an all around great kid.

See for yourself what you can do at 12 yrs old. (Dad gave little assistance on this project)
He literally ran with it.

http://www.e-ringtech.com

by danintheband

All Of my kids are on computers. I started them off early. 11, 8, and now 6
All of them are trying programing except the 6 year old lol.
Ether way I tried starting off cheap to find out kids get the hang of it quick.

The already no enough to need all the features of today. A couple are even doing their own web sites. (Blocked of Course)
My advise. Don't limit them.
It is the wave of the future. Today is that future.
They are going to need to know as much as they can. Before they go out into the real world.
Dan

by onbliss

..."A BIG Thank you!!!" for the great inputs and suggestions. I will not be replying to each post; but definitely I am reading each post and am thankful to each one of you for the helpful and kind suggestions.

Unless something else comes up, I have plenty of ideas on what to do this summer.

:-)