IT Employment

Ask something
Discussion Locked

is this IT thing for real?

0 helpful
44 replies

by qba98

Closed to new repliesThis discussion is closed. It stays readable, but it takes no new replies.
OK, guys, here I go, as honest as I can be. I've have had my suspicions about the "shortage of IT professionals" for some time, but now, even more so. I'm a recent college grad, and have become disillusioned with making a career out of IT. I didwhat I was told to do—an internship, polished communication skills (when necessary), and still there seems to be no end in sight in this job search. Please tell me why I constantly see commercials for IT trainings schools and boot camps claiming that there exists thousands of IT jobs, yet every honest survey shows that not only are companies not actively recruiting people but they are actually firing them? I know I left a ton of details out, but could someone with some years of experience in this business please explain to me why I feel like I'm at a meat market whenever I go on an interview? Is everyone lying to us? Does this foreign worker thing have anything to do with it? Did corporation conspire to flood the media with misinformation so they could saturate the market with talent and lower salaries? Is this the way the rest of our lives in this modern free market economy are going to be? I can’t imagine living like this for another 40 years. Maybe I should teach.

44 replies

by packratt

No, you're not imagining things, the "IT Thing" is like the wizard behind the curtain, just a sham. Yes, many factors contribute to it, and collusion between training farms, corporate interests, the ITAA, and venders supplying certifications play a major role.

I would go into detail but I'm just too depressed thinking about it right now...

Good luck out there!

by james r linn

Some markets are still going strong, others have slackened.

In Toronto, there was a 9 month hickup after the dot com crash, but now there is demand.

I don't see a real conspiracy. True there are more grads on the market today than there were, but in some areas there are still major shortages. Security specialists, for example, can name their own price.

James

by packratt

Well, I could be my usual suspicious self and ask you what training hut you work for... But I'll be nice and just add that Canada pays it's tech workers on the low end of the scale and thus there is a lot of demand since you can work a less stressful job with less hours and more respect for equal pay and less training.

by rdschaefer

Yes the shortage is real, but it's not what you think. Almost all corps. are totally focused on the bottom line now and are doing ANYTHING to save money in the short-term. That includes not being willing to pay us what we deserve and lying to the govt. so they can import more low-wage foreigners. They don't seem to realize that by saving money up-front, it is costing them MORE in the long run in terms of maintenance and repairs.

Ralph

by james r linn

And you'd be sooo wrong.....

You have to take alot of things into account when you look at salaries. I worked for a global telecom firm and we knew what our counterparts made in other regions. You have to look at the whole picture - salaries, taxes, benefits, and cost of living.

Sure on average we make less than tech workers in Silicon Valley, or New York, for example, but you can buy a luxury home here for what you'd pay for a townhouse in either of those locations.

Its not what it was in the boom, when big companies fought for every grad in electrical and computer engineering, and pay scales shot up.

But there are IT jobs here. My current employer is hiring 500 engineers over the next year.

And I'll just be nice and not suggest you are bitter.

James

by timthetoolman

Hi,

There used to be a huge demand for IT people. That was real.

Now that so many people have entered the market we're seeing the inevitable oversupply. This will settle down over time but right now is not a good time to be inexperienced and coming into the market!

by james r linn

This gets back to my earlier comment - its a regional thing.

I do read salary surveys in both countries, and I've worked for mulitnationals on teams which spanned both countries.

Toronto may pay less than San Jose or New York city, its true. But housing costs, and municipal and provincial(state) taxes are also lower. Interviews with Canadian who went south usually bemoan the fact that the higher salary comes with higher costs and they aren't any farther ahead.
Federal taxes are higher in Canada, but they include health care costs and a great deal of subsidies for university education.

Toronto still has a thriving IT market. Go to the Library and look at the Toronto Star career section. Ottawa had a lot of .com people, so was hita little harder.

I don't work for a training company BTW. I work for a company which employs thousands of engineers. My employer before that was a telecom giant, and trust me the pay was good, the hours were long and the work was stressful.

James

by packratt

...Is what most of your countrymen have told me, which is the canadian wages for IT professionals are low, even when cost of living is factored in. If you dispute that, no problem... But what I suggest is that it is not a regional issue but a company by company issue and you are just one of the very few lucky people to be reimbursed appropriately for the harrassment of being in IT whereas most are not.

You are lucky enough to be in a company that staffs appropriately instead of understaffingto the Nth degree and then expecting the same level of service or more.

Oh, and please feel free to call me whatever you wish, I'm quite certain others have done worse.

by james r linn

and obviously not effectively, to show you how your language ("I won't call you...but") is disingenuous.

Its not one company I've worked for, its many, since 1985. I know many Canadians in the high tech industry, from consultants, contract programmers, computer journalists, people who work in huge multinationals, and people who work in small companies. Yes there are companies who understaff and underpay, but I am sure there are those south of the border too. The grass is always greener somewhere else....

Some of my collegues have gone south, and some have come back again. In NYC, they were cash rich and house poor.

James

by prefbid ii

I think the outlook for IT jobs is very regional. It really has always been that way, it just becomes more pronounced in an economic slump.

You might have to take a job that requires more travel or less pay than you might like. If you go the less pay route, though, go with a non-profit. Most companies realize that non-profits don't pay well and therefore your "current" salary is less likely to haunt you in later years.

Also check out high risk companies. Companies that are teetering on the verge of bankrupcy often are good places to work. They often have IT openings because the "good" IT people already left for more stable pastures. Those left are swamped. Those who come in to help save the company usually end up being treatedwell if the company survives. If the company goes belly up, well at least you have a few months experience. Again, working a failing company can be shown as "having a good attitude in the face of obstacles"

As for the swamping of the market with H1B visa's -- it's all hype. Those foreign workers have every much a natural right to earn a living as anyone who was born in the US. No one said that you were "owed" a job just because you were blessed with having been born in this country. Most of the foreign workers get paid for every dime they are worth, its that a lot of them are not worth as much as US trained workers. That could be due to a lack of English skills or just good background training. However, I have yet to see a H1B worker who wasn't worth their weight in gold for enthusiasm.

So what if the market is tight and the jobs are not plentiful. If you are good, you will not have a problem finding a job. If you are only average -- it may take you a while. If you are only as good as the average H1B visa people, then it may be time to think of changing careers.

by packratt

So... you state that H1b holders are paid every dime that they are worth? Yet they are paid 33+% LESS than american born IT professionals. SO, you are, in essence, saying that they are not worth as much as American labor?

If that is what you are saying then I would have to disagree. It's just unfortunate that they come over here for a better life and get swindled when their new wages are way under board for the extreme cost of living over here. They are used as tools, just like you or I.

by prefbid ii

The problem with looking at wage statistics is that they tend to be too flat. The "average" woman makes less than the "average" man. Yet, that does not tell me a thing about any potential income disparity. It's possible that there are more women who opt for non-monetary wages such as child-care facilities, club membership, shorter hours, less overtime, and intangible job benefits like personal satisfaction and a sense of well-being. I'm not claiming that there is no salary cheating going on because I know there is -- I've seen it.

However the same goes for H1B visa workers. There may be some that are working below thier potential income if they had been US born, however, many of them are NOT as qualified as their US counterpart. Problems that I have SEEN in H1B visa workers who come from non-English speaking countries are: a lack or speaking skills, a lack of writing skills, an unwillingness to try to convince others of their ideas, and too willing to do what they were told. The higher paying IT jobs all REQUIRE these skills. On average, then, we should expect that they will be paid less.

On another note: I have yet to meet a British or Canadian IT worker who knowingly accepted a low salary just so they could work in the US.

by cestalthesickly

Sorry, the idea that somehow, being good at a job will magically make an opening appear for you just doesn't seem realistic to me. The truth is, if you don't have the credentials on paper (when the market is tight) you won't even get an interview, not even necessarily a reply to your earnestly submitted resume'/letters/Emails.

"So what if the market is tight and the jobs are not plentiful. If you are good, you will not have a problem finding a job."

by prefbid ii

Feel free to disagree.

My point is one of trying to distinguish between those that are good at what they do and those who think the world owes them a living. Yes, credentials always help. I've managed to get some doors open because of the undergraduate school and graduate schools that I went to. However, it is also true that credentials are not enough.

I recently corresponded with a few friends from my college days. They are on their ear right now. They have at least one same "door opener" that I have. Yet, they have not made the same use of their opportunities.

Just because you went to the right college or earn the right certification does not mean that you are good at what you do. You have to be good at it too. When you have them both, you're golden. When you have just the talent, you're hirable. When you have just the credentials -- you're homeless.

If you think credentials are all you need for a job, then you are going to be waiting a long time before you are hired. Everyone else is ahead of you in the queue.

by willywill41

If you want my advice, go to Washington DC or Northern Va and get a job with a Government Contractor. They pay well and if you can get a security clearance (Govt) your gold....

by Member 28765817

it jobs are begging in the atlanta area also. however, the cost of living is high and salaries are average. a lot depends on your skills. for instance ae you certified in several languages, c++, mcse, unix, linux, you get the picture. can you do a spreadsheet. there are many variables. but if you're only so-so certified, don't know java, html or any of the more common programs, or went to a college that pushes out it people like eggs in a chicken farm, then you are out of luck. get fully certified, get a masters degree,or teach. try mathematics. but don't expect a lot of money there either. lower your expectations. adk for a starting salary in the 35 to 45,000 range, not 70 to 80,000. those jobs went up in smoke with the dot.bomb bubble.

by packratt

You know, one thing I found startling is that DC seems to be home to more homeless than any other city that I've been in. Quite startling for the nation's capital, must be a sign of all those jobs out there.

Seriously, public sector jobs are allways low paying and can be tenuous if they are tied to election results as some are.

by retro

Despite appearances there actually are a great many jobs in the Northern VA, DC area. Anyone catch the story on 20/20 about how the NSA went black for about 24 hours? Many of our nations security and intelligence agencies are completely overhauling their IT systems. With 9/11 they've even begun picking up the pace. If you can stand the outrageous cost of living, the filth, the drunks, the crime, the traffic, and the crowds...

by prefbid ii

I'm quite certain that all of those homeless people have advanced degrees in computer science or physics. Maybe they're all working on their MSCE and chose the street to be able to afford the tuition.

Or were you just refering to one of the disadvantages of working in the DC area -- you have to step over the people in the street to get to work.

by maxwell edison

There is the possibility that there appears to be more “homeless” in Washington DC only because Washington DC is one of the cities with the most “handout” programs. Most of the homeless, such as the drug addicts, alcoholics, and the societal drop-outs, go to wherever there is a free handout – and Washington DC has plenty of them. They are there purely by choice. And Washington DC – among other communities – have become nothing but enablers in one’s self-destructive life style choices. (No, I’m not referring to the children, the women fleeing abusive environments, or the mentally ill. I’m referring to the other 90%.)

Maxwell

by t165

I went to Washington as a teenager and I was so depressed watching the homeless sleep on benches with garbage bags covering them and throrough dusting of snow that I had a miserable time. I gave all of my spending money the homeless there. I felt soguilty like how could I be vacationing while there are people out there living this way. I will never go to Washinton again. Any city that does such a horrible job providing for its homeless does not deserve my tourism dollars.

by fluxit

Technology is in a null state having had several years of boom, exuberance, and the misfortune of enormous isp failures. There will be in a down and recovery time.

Also industry drifts over time to different things. During the seventies the big push was accounting and CPAs flooded corporate America. The 80's had a big push for the MBA. In the 90's there was a big push for IT people.

My original career was Aero Eng but in the 80's that died and schools closed the aero colleges. Aero Eng today consist of other engineers who specialize in structures and powerplants. Fluid dynamics is almost ignored.

I then went into operations management but self directed work cells and technology eliminated much of the need for management.

Yetall along the way I was being pushed into technology. I actually began working in technology in 82 but continued with other focus until I was forced into IT. Today I am at one of those crossroads as in Aero and Ops Mgt.

I see IT in the next 10 yrs requiring fewer and fewer administrators, engineers, and networkers. I foresee internet appliances replacing the desktop computer.

More importantly, I see employers hiring fewer people as employees. People will form thier own companies and contract with several 'employers' providing information and knowledge services.

For those out there in IT you have an advantage over the common joe because you have acquired the skills necessary to leverage technology and advance a business.

I recommend that you form a company today and leverage technologies. 10 years ago starting a business would require paper flyers and catalogues, hiring staff, and huge advertising budgets. Today those same companies could startup for less than 2% of what it would have taken 10 years ago and you know how to do it.

by nathanh

You must be a great Aero engineer to have made it to our planet. I am sorry but the day that all desktops are replaced with Internet Appliances and no network or security engineers are needed we will be landing on your planet. Are the Internet Appliances going to design, build, troubleshoot, and secure the networks that link everyone? Well, not until we get a little farther in Nano-technology research and deployment. I am sure though that it will become easier and easier to deploy and configure networks as we advance the technologies. Network servers are still at least 5 years from zero administration.
Yes of course, I am exaggeranting the point to be funny. Your point is valid, but I think we have 20-30 years of high demand for admins and engineers. What we should all take from this is the fact that our experience should flow with the overall trends in the world.

I hope you were not offended by my jabs at your views, I think you hit the right note with your closing remarks. Everyone needs to embrace technology and learn to use it in every endeavor to have a chance for success today.

by qba98

OK, I can buy into market fluctuation--supply and demand from econ. 101; but what is bogus is the perpetuation of a "severe shortage" of tech workers by many in the nation, and not just by the fast-talkers who want to be the beneficiary of your monthly checks. There is something fishy going on here.

by prefbid ii

In college Economics I was always fascinated by how the Profs magically got their numbers. "Poof" and you instantly are on the leading edge of a profit curve.

In Real-Econ, sometimes you get stabbed in the back. Sometimes companies hire jerksfor their VPs. Sometimes people die at the most inopportune time. Sometimes the press hypes a minor issue in order to sell papers. Sometimes people lie. Sometimes hiring managers hire the wrong person. Sometimes companies believe the drivel that comes from their MBAs about how to make money. Sometimes people make honest mistakes.

Don't take this as being a "downer", though. I have been very (no make that VERY) successful in IT. I have not made it to the top and I don't know if I want to go there. I've enjoyed most of my IT jobs (everyone has to have a few losers on their resume). I have especially enjoyed the people that I have had the pleasure of working with.

You'll find the jerks, idiots, and incompetents in any field. You might as well work in the field that you enjoy.

by nkqx57a

There will always be a shortage of good IT people, especially at the management levels. Currently the IT industry is in one of its down cycles for two reasons (1) economic downturn and (2) an evolution taking place in the Industry itself.

The internet has caused ?Corporate America? to rethink its direction concerning IT. This economic downturn has been a welcome lull, giving some needed time for corporations to retool their IT organizations and set themselves up for doing business in the 21st Century.

Usually a shortage of resources will cause cost to rise. However, if you are able to control these shortages, you can control their costs. That is what American corporations have been trying to do since 1994. When IT shortages occur andcosts begin to rise, they just import more IT workers causing the shortage to become a surplus, forcing costs down. If they were not able to import the needed resources, they would turn to exporting the work to wherever the costs were lower. The bignegative from all this that the quality of those imported or exported resources is not of standards for success in the 21st Century.

All this sacrifices long-term bottom-lines and future success, for short-term gains without future stability. For doing business in the 21st Century and for becoming a leader in the Global Economy corporations must think beyond the next quarters bottom-line and develop strategies for stabilizing the playing field of a Global Economy. Corporations that are able to do this will be very successful, while those that are not will disappear.

by cestalthesickly

but liars figure. It's true that the number of "computer jobs" has massively increased, and is even still increasing. Of course, that takes into account all the folks saying "would you like fries with that?" as they punch your order into, you guessed it, a computer.

by packratt

You were "trying" to call me ignorant, so I just thought I would tell you where I got my opinion from... Perhaps I should show you the actual posts that this sentiment is from so that you may call your own countrymen ignorant as well?

James, I have the strong suspicion that you are in management and thus have a limited view of how much employees are paid is really worth in the real world, in Canada or elsewhere.

Yse, in Canada you can buy more with less, but you pay less. How much less depends on the company but it is still less, even by your own admission. Sure, it's enough for you, it always is for management and executives. And whatever slops off the feeding trough is good enough for employees as well, I suppose.

by manninro

You have said it best corporations have conspired to flood the media with misinformation so they could saturate the market with talent and lower salaries. Companies are not looking for neophytes but well experienced IT pros. Why? technology is for every changing and companies want those who already are well knowledgeable in this area while aware of the new chances and their impacts.

by kaydi

Don't know if you went to Technical School (BCIT), University, College or one of those really expensive 'get a 4 year tech education in 6 months' deals. Now those are bogus!

I was doing interviews about 6 months ago and some people have the mostoutlandish expectations .. They've been out of school for maybe 1 year, had 1 job and think they should be getting paid $30 an hour! excuse me, get a grip!

I know, I thought I knew everything when I finished school too .. news flash .. I didn't..after about 6 years of experience you might be worth $30 an hour until then, be humble and recognize that you still have lots to learn. And you know what, I learn something new every day, I love this industry and the people I've worked with and learned from.

Chin up and good luck .. learn from every interview, be honest with prospective employers and yourself, always wear a suit and tie !

by packratt

In a world full of overly optimistic and obliviously happy people someone has to be realistic, might as well be me since I've had it up to here, (reaching way over my head), with people avoiding what goes on in the world around them just to feel justified by their inactivity via harsh statements like those who are unfortunate deserve it. It makes me sick, so here I am, your pleasant voice of concience that you've long neglected.

Seriously though... If there is the plethora of jobs in the DC area and not enough bodies to fill the position then train these people who disgust you by forcing you to walk over their huddled bodies so that these poor and suffering companies can have the labor they so desperately need... At least aparently by your opinion the executives deserve more compassion than those that line the streets.

Oh... But I forgot, all those that sleep in the cold must have done something to deserve being there, at least by the prevailing sentiments of the day. My appologies for being so utterly subversive and "cynical".

by prefbid ii

I don't live or work anywhere near DC. I have no particular love for corporate greedmeisters. I have no hatred for the homeless.

Here is what I have observed from my visits to many cities.
DC has a few more homeless than other cities of its size, but it is not that much different. The biggest difference is the type of homeless. I physically did step over homeless people in Austin, TX once (they were blocking the sidewalk). If I could think of something to do for them, I might have doneit. However, they were so strung out on drugs that they probably did not notice the group of us walking over the top of them. In DC I saw more panhandlers. I can't say that I know why they spend time begging in the streets, but that is what they do.

Both of those groups of people are homeless by profession. They choose to live in the streets. I know this because there are no shortage of jobs (albeit low paying) for people who are willing to work. As the apostle Paul said, "If a man will not work, neither let him eat." People who decide that booze or crack is more important than working do get what they deserve.

For the working poor, who you usually find at homeless shelters, asking for work, and trying to do something to get out of their situation -- those are the people who I feel compassion for. That includes people of foreign countries. That's why I feel strongly about opening up trade to our neighbors, about letting foreigners have jobs, and looking to improve the overall economy of the world and not just the US.

by maxwell edison

Have you ever seen one of those sad and pitiful looking guys holding the sign, "Will work for food"? (Of course with a God Bless thrown in for good measure.)

Have you ever stopped and offered him work?

I'd give 100-1 odds that he would decline any job offer given.

Yes, I have.

Yes, he declined.

Yes, on more than one occasion.

No, I've never had one take me up on the offer. Not once.

Maxwell

by packratt

Yeah, nobody asked me when I was homeless, at least not for 'work'.

No, I didn't do drugs, no, it wasn't a choice... I was lucky enough to have the potential to rise above, many don't and fall as a result.

So high up there in that tower of cash that all others look like ants to you. It's so much easier when you blame others for their misery, isn't it?

by zlitocook

There are jobs out there, but!!!!! Unless you have more experence then age you won't get hired. I lucked into a job with UPS as a field sevice technician right out of tech school at 39 years old! It's like all jobs you need to lower your standards and take a job to get the training. It looks good on a resume to have on the job training. A few years ago you might have walked into a $80.000 a year job but not now! Work your way up and learn as you go.

by yamon

Sure there's plenty of jobs out there. Sure, all those gov't openings are everywhere, and sure...there isn't enough people to fill all of them. One thing everyone left out here is, YOU NEED A SECURITY CLEARANCE TO EVEN APPLY for most of those positions, and unless you have one, companies are just putting your profile on the bottom of the stack. Being on the inside with a clearance myself and recently departing that area, if you're not prior service or Gov't, DC is a job market just like Boston, and NYC.

by packratt

It was just a comment about how it's pretty bad when your nation's capital has so many people sleeping on sidewalks, take it as you will. Even though I seriously question your statistic.

Besides, I thought conservatives like you killed all those "hand-out" programs like welfare.

by karthikeyan umapathy

I am also an grad student looking for IT jobs. I am also finding it difficult to get job. Since i am international student i find more difficult especially now only defense companies has jobs.
So I don't foreign worker factor will not effect you since they are most effected.

by nathanh

As an IT Director who recently went on a shopping spree for an employee in the Silicon Valley, I would like to offer my experiences. I interviewed only about a dozen people while I looked at hundreds and hundreds of resumes. There are a glut of people who call themselves IT workers. IT workers they are not! It seems that the telecomm boom and the .com boom created a lot of jobs, so many jobs that non-tech people were pulled in to do tech jobs if he or she just knew a little about operating a computer. You know who you are help desk and project coordinators out there. Other people were lulled into IT from the cert schools and trade schools with "Microsoft Stock Option Millionaire Dreams." Now they know all the key words to put on theresume to intrigue the hiring managers and recruiters without any real experience. When a hiring manager wants to fill a job with a legitamate experienced person the pickings are slim. So yes, the market may seem flooded or look crowded to a person just starting out. But the companies that are reporting job openings that are unfilled may not be total liars, it is difficult to filter the BS out of the available worker pool right now to find a candidate. That, I think, is the real problem that you are experiencing right now. You are competing with hundreds of thousands or phony IT workers. This situation is especially tough on someone with bonified skills and experience who may get lost with the muck of talentless leaches.

My recommendation is to look for nontraditional ways into the door of a company that you wish and avoid that void of non-skilled IT muck.

by t165

I am that help desk person that you ripped apart in your nasty little post. I graduated from a certification program and was hired on the spot.
I was hired because I was cheap and would work like a dog. Unlike the people that you rank so highly inyour post I don't have rich parents to foot my tuition and living expenses for 4+ years of college. I am also not willing to land $100,000 in debt for another piece of paper which does not bring any guarantees.

I didn't care why I was hired, I cared about learning as I could as fast as possible. I work a 50 hour week. Then on the rare occasions when I am not working or researching a project I dive into the dry technical books doing my best to stay ahead of the game. This method has worked well for me in that I never run into a problem that I can't solve. I am dedicated and tireless in my pursuit of infrasture development and maintenance.
There a lot of so called IT people who wrk in my department with IT degrees who can't turn on their damn computers. I have programmers who can't even use WinZip yet can figure out how use yahoo to pick up women.
Before you write off Help Desk people you should take a little time getting to know one of them. Yo would be surprised at our level of knowledge and skill. And unlike other areas of IT world we there is no problem that we won't tackle and solve. We go anyplace at a moments notice and for the most part are on call 24 hours a day because damn designated administrators either won't return pages or don't a have a clue as to what to do other than saying reboot. You have a lot to learn before you pass judgement on others proffessions!

by nathanh

I guess I did not do a good job making my point. I wasn't trying to put down support people or project coordinators. I was trying to say, as you helped make my point, that there are a lot of people in those positions that do not know anything about the technical skills to solve a problem or design a network for that matter. They have managed to get by on KB articles, escalations, and dumb luck. They problem I was trying to describe is that there are so darn many people who apply for each position that have the exact same PAPER credentials as you. As the hiring authority, how am I to differeniate you from the bonehead who can't work WinZip next to you? And that is what I was trying to say: that the dot com/telecomm boom created a lot of need for IT pros and filled them with mostly non-IT pros. Now, all of those people have been let go and are looking for jobs. Most would be better served (and the whole IT industry too) if the non-technical IT workers went back where they came from and those that made something of their expeience, and actually gained some IT skills in the process, were the only ones that stuck with IT.

I don't really want to get into the whole personal background, but you should learn to head your own advice and not pass judgement. So you should know that I have worked in tech support and know many people who have and some that still do. So I make my judgement from a sound position, not from a high perch. I also know there are talented people outthere in the help desk field, I'm just trying to be honest though. Also, I never mentioned that I went to college in my post. You must assume that because I am in management, I went to college. All that I am going to say about that is that it is probably not an accidental assumption.

by hmsardenberg

What do you mean by nontraditional ways to get into the door?

What kind of advice would you give a person who is starting in the IT industry but doesn't have a lot of experience of a technical college degree? I'm currently working on getting MCSE certified (1 more exam to go). Do you think other certifications is the correct path?

by cestalthesickly

I guess what I am really saying is that you need the talent/knowledge to *do* a job, but to get a job you need connections and/or the right stuff on your resume'. When I have been responsible for hiring, I have tried to look at the big picture, butfrankly have generally not bothered to interview people who didn't look promising just based on their introductory letters or resume's. Of course, I have only hired for small businesses (40 people or less), and if someone made an effort to come talk to me in person, I would at least give them an interview... but I was always a bit odd, anyways, so I can't speak for how others do it.

No argument on the idea that nobody owes anyone a living. I am proud to say I have been working at one job or another since I was 14, and have never had need for any government assistance or welfare type stuff. I have lived well below the poverty level(and been quite well off, which is much better.)

This discussion is closed to new replies.