IT Employment
Anybody else out there getting discouraged too?? Ive been working my tail off this past 2 years to become a part of this industry and all I want is to hear is one encouraging thing.
How could the economy be so screwed. One thing I know is that George W will not be getting my vote in '04.
by oldefar
If you read the Micellaneous posts over the past several years you will see a lot of discuouraged US TR members - both those trying to begin a career and those who have decades of experience.
There are several reasons for this. First off, the amount of labor required to support a given level of ICT keeps decreasing. In a fashion similar to Moore's Law, technical expertise becomes codified and moved into the hardware and software at a cost of ICT jobs, or becomes part of the general common body of knowledge and moves to "unskilled" labor. This went relatively unnoticed while ICT grew overall into new areas, but became evident once the market growth slowed.
Next was the unrealistic expectations set during the dot com decade. Fueled by the Y2K issue, ERP and CRM bandwagons, and an apparent Midas touch with anything Internet related, venture capital poured into the IT sectors and salaries skyrocketed. This fueled growth in other areas as well as the newly well off went on buying sprees. Like a house of cards, everything felt the impact when the bubble burst.
Then there is the greed factor. People focus on their own situation, and corporate management has been no exception. Compensation packages and pay differentials between workers and senior management jumped to levels unseen for a 100 years. No one griped as they saw their own salaries grow beyond expectation and so allowed this to occur. Finding a better balance will take time and effort. Meanwhile, the senior management continues to seek better financial performance by reducing head count or outsourcing to lower cost labor to protect their own personal wealth.
The outsourcing is an ongoing trend as old as civilization. What has changed is that technology has shrunk the globe. The impact is felt at an accelerated pace. What used to occur over several career spans now occurs several times within a single career span, which leaves many of us dazed and confused. The eventual result will be a more balanced standard of living globally, which means less of the finite resources for those of us in Western Europe and North America who for years have had more than our share. With 6 billion people, there is a much higher demand on those resources as well.
So what do we do? When I get that figured out I will run for President. Meanwhile, get your own list of needs versus wants squared away and don't let those wants drive your satisfaction with life.
by oz_media
Of any country is what you make it.
HOT DOG STAND (oldie but true)
A guy had a hot dog stand during the great depression. He had signs and banners everywhere advertising his hot dogs, he made up meal deals and business was booming.
Another guy down the street had a donut shop. No signs, no advertising, no deals and business was in the dumps.
The donut vendor saw the hot dog guy putting up another sign (even bigger than before) and asked him how he could be so positive and spend money on advertising when the great depression was on.
The hot dog guy had NO IDEA that there was a depression, his business had been great. Taking the donut vendors words in to mind, he quickly took down his signs and stopped paying for advertising. When business slowed to a trickle, he went to the donut vendor and said;
"Thanks for telling me about the depression, you're right, there really is no business anymore."
OM
by oz_media
You obviously, have NO idea as to how to find work. Don't feel so flattered that your IIT economy has died. It's the same everywhere, unless your in India I suppose.
It in BC is just as bad, it's just that 99.9% of IT staff I've met have little or no presentation skills and basically ask other bummed out IT staff like yourself what the market is like.
The guy who posted this thread doesn't need your deflating and depressing outlook on an industry that you feel has neglected you.
My point, in case you don't understand or haven't heard the Hot Dog story before, is that by listening to others that are suffering, you're not going to progress.
I used to be a member of the Vancouver Board of Trade. When I was behind one of Vancouvers most successful entrpreneurs at the lunch buffet, I asked if I could pay for his meal. he was a little stunned that a young upstart wanted to buy a multi-millionaire his lunch, but he accepted.
During luch, he asked me WHY I wanted to buy him lunch.
I said, why would YOU buy ME lunch? What do you have to learn other than I'm trying to get past bearocratic red tape and start a business. Whereas by buying HIM lunch, I managed to get several relevant issues resolved and definiately gained from meeting him.
People that are in need, dno't need to be told everyone elseis in need as well.
It's the same thing here, people wine about the job market in IT. I have NEVER fhad a problem finding work. I find that although there are hundreds if not thousands of qualified IT staff (many MUCH more qualified than me)but they have NO IDEA how to find work. There are opportunities everywhere, you just need to create them and stop waiting for the handout.
The local paper today has NO IT postings, but I know several companies that are looking for IT staff.
Don't blame your personal failure on the market, it's BS. Blame yourself for not having the ability to go out and creat opportunities.
Just because one guy says there's a depression, don't take your signs down, he's a fool.
Why are you attacking Oz this way? I agree with him, things might be tough but a resourceful person can always find work. It may not be glamorous or prestigious but it pays the bills.
Ralph
by mallardtooxx
Even though Oz and I rarely see eye to eye on most issues but he provided what max was asking for, encouragement. Everyone here knows that the Global IT market sucks but you seem to think that you are alone in your observation. For the record max and oz are right here and you are right in your observation. I am not going to appease any viewpoint on the issue but you must stop and look at OZ's post and see that he was merely trying to offer a different perspective. And as for the off topic thread, well if they bother you then don't read them.
Just another overpaid IT specialists POV
-duck
by jim phelps
I think the reason IT jobs are down is that companies spent a huge amount upgrading and fixing everything for Y2K, and then after that, everything was fixed; nothing to do now.
Also, they spent years of money fixing stuff, and so now they don't have the money to do anything.
Things were booming right before Y2K, but since then, very slow...
by mrafrohead
You know Oz actually posted a important piece of information if you read between the lines. Not to mention there was a good point in it.
To flame him is just plain wrong. Maybe re-read it again and see if it makes any more sense to you.
I'd consider changing that nick to "needs-2-get.my.head.out.of.my.ass"
But that is just my opinion. Take it with a grain of salt.
Mrafrohead
by ghstinshll
by oz_media
"Is he supposed to go out and put up signs saying "APPS BACKUPS COMM LINES" and that'll help him find work?"
YES. How else do you expect to find work?
Katie Bar The Door.
I agree with Oz.(But not his delivery.)
If your invited to a recession or a down-turn, decline to attend. You may have to focus your efforts in a different direction and possibly get a little creative, but suffering through a recession is a matter of choice.
Do a little research and discover how many people got WEALTHY during the Great Depression of the 30s.
Your outcome is most likely a direct result of your outlook.
by oz_media
Can I have a chair please, I feel a little light headed. OOOOOOOO, I feel wooooooooooooozy, uh......I don't know what to say, Max.
Have a nice weekend?
by oldefar
OzMedia and Maxwell Edison have both hit on some truths, but seem to have missed what those truths are.
Oz was not selling IT - he was literally and figuratively feeding a resource, in particular focusing on that person's prestige. Call it salesmanship, brown nosing, sucking up, or business sense it still had nothing to do with IT specific skills. As for advertising - you still have to appeal to perceived need and there has to be an acceptable medium of exchange.
Maxwell is correct on attitude. A positive attitude can be destroyed by association with negative attitudes. However, a bit of reality has to be applied as well. Those who got rich during the Great Depression did not do so by sticking with a dying trade and holding a positive attitude. They found new, NEW opportunities. Attitude won't change reality - the Titanic still sank, and Hitler still lost the war, Gore did not win the last election, and the Cowboys are 0 and 1.
And I think that attitude can indeed change reality. No, it can't change history, as in the case of a sunken ship, but it can change the future, as in the case of Sir Ernest Shackleton's Endurance expedition and a doomed ship, which is one of the greatest survival stories of all time. So yes, attitude can indeed change, or more accurately, mold the future.
However, one has to be able to adapt to the whatever circumstances he/she faces. If a person waits for outside forces to meet his/her needs and desires, the wait may be very long and, most likely, very disappointing.
In the case of job scarcity in any given field, one must either wait for things to change, become among the best in the field to fill the fewer spots available, or change focus. It may be true that a person has his/her heart set on working in IT, but there are only so many spots available.
I spent well over a year after a layoff (13 years ago) doing something totally unrelated to IT, and I was so successful at it that I almost continued permanently. It is true that if opportunities don't obviously present themselves, one can make his/her own opportunity. It's all in the right mindset.
by oz_media
that I don't suck up or brown nose. I don't push for acceptance, I don't agree just to be the same as others. In fact, I often stand alone with my views and opinions, I don't gain a lot of friends here by taking sides and jumping on the you-do-so-I-do bandwagon. I dare to be different, I stand for what I believe.
In the case of discouraging someone who wants to try something new, I won't generally join the herd. I am still one who believes that you can do or be ANYTHING you choose.
The number of things I would have never achieved if I listened to someone like you is incredible. Bands woould never be discovered, cars would be scrapped, computers thrown out, houses would burn to the ground, the list goes on and on. You have a VERY negative and detrimental mindset that could bring any company to it's knees.
BC's unemployment rate is the highest in the country and higher than MOST US cities. IT jobs go across the border all the time due to taxation, IT Training is almost as expensive as real career training to become a doctor. Over the weekend, there were NO IT jobs in the paper, nor were there this morning. I know of three companies that are hiring IT staff in my area and several in Vancouver, there's no advertisement but there are opportunities.
My post of the Hot Dog stand, was to encourage someone that no matter what people say, recession and depression is a self inflicted and VERY contagious disease(sounds like you caught it too).
Life is what YOU make it, not someone else. There IS work, if you know how to market yourself. If someone says there is no opportunity in a specific line of work, it's probably because they aren't very good at it themselves. This doesn't mean that others will fail too.
I'm sure that isn't the attitude that has built The United States of America into the free world's most powerful leader and saviour of all God's children.
...if you really don't believe this, you'll be right.
But if you do believe it, you'll still be right.
by oldefar
A fitting analogy. Much like the ship Endurance, the ICT field stranded on the ice with little chance of regaining its position as a sea faring vessel. Unfortunately, there was no Sir Ernest Shackleton in command. No heroic effort being undertaken to rescue the stranded crew. Those who have sailed on in the life boat are focused only on their personal survival.
So the story of Shackleton is great for attitude, great for heroism, and great for ethics. Imagine, a boss who put his people above his own security! Just don't confuse the attitude of the individual with the vessel. Attitude did not refloat the wreck Endurance.
For those who choose to stay on the ice, look at the steel industry today versus the steel industry in the 1970's. The days of large steel corporations and high wages for a large work force are gone. Still, the US has regained a leadership role in steel production. It bears little resemblence to industry that made Andrew Carnegie rich and has not replaced the jobs lost, but there are those in the US who work making steel again.
by mallardtooxx
If I thought it would help you I would blow sunshine up your ass max98037, but it won't and I don?t work that way. It is a real pain in the butt, the problem is that there is a whole new class of IT out there that no one is willing to recognize, the unemployed. Since the massive scale backs and budget cuts many jobs have evaporated just as quick as they came on the scene these are the facts. However I must say one thing that may help to enlighten you, things will come back. IT is going through a metamorphosis of a sorts and it will emerge a lot different than the way it went in. My advice to you is to learn as much as you can, keep a positive attitude and remember that just because the economy has dipped it is not blown out, this is just a bump. The days of golden servers and unlimited budgets are gone. But you must look at the total picture and keep the bigger picture in focus, if you lose sight of it you will most definitely sink quicker than you can swim.
The dot com days may be gone but the IT world is never going to go away the next big boon is just around the corner. That I can guarantee you, keep your chin up things will change.
-duck
by guruofdos
What were you doing PRIOR to those last two years?
If you were doing something else, what moved you to go into IT. If you just entered the employment market, knowing that post 1998 there has been a downturn in IT (supposedly) then why did you choose that career option?
I'm just asking! I know many young people who see what I do and think that that's what they want to do when they leave school, not realising the implications of a career in todays market. A kid may love playing computer games, or surfing the web, but that is no qualification for a job in computers. Having an interest in a field is no guarantee of success.
I didn't want to get into computers as such. First and foremost I am an electronics engineer and that was my career choice from the tender age of seven. My IT path just happened as a result of my training and career in an electronics environment. I also happen to be reasonably competent, but this competence is based on many many years of hard work and discipline gained in electronics.
I hear people bitch about all the IT jobs going to India or other developing countries. What crap! Yes, it's true many jobs are being outsourced to cheap labour markets, but all of these are the menial jobs. Jobs like coding, running call centres and doing all the hum-drum routine stuff. The real 'work'...skilled work, hands on work, on-site engineering is still local to wherever you are...they don't send network engineers to California from Mumbai on a 'half-hour call-out'!
I have many other interests outside of IT where I could make a comfortable living if I so choose. I have many other interests which are just that....interests. They don't necessarily qualify me for a career. Just being interested and wanting to get a job in IT isn't enough.
I happen to like 'pussy'...my wife has one and I have spent many happy hours 'playing with it' and learning it's ways and wiles. I have seen a few beavers in my time as this is my second marriage and I have had plenty of girlfriends in the past!That in itself does not qualify me to be a gynaecologist! I'd need four years in medical school, two years as an intern in a hospital then another three years of specialist training and study. Of course, if I 'really wanted to be a gynaecologist', and that was the be-all and end-all, then I's go to school and do that training and learn my metier.
The same applies to IT....there are any number of people out there who have 'dabbled' or have one or two minor certs, or have 'toyed with computers' but they are all in the same boat. Microsofts philosophy sums up the IT industry...live now it may not be around next week, or in their words, 'Where do you want to go today?'
A career is for life....not just for Christmas. During your higher education, you should be saying to yourself where do I wan't to go next year, next decade, next quarter century...and prepare before you even put a toe in the water.
When IT dries up, I can go back to electronics....or catering, or retail, or manual work or whatever. Go into IT for the sake of IT and when it's gone, there's nothing left!
... and a fellow Brit too, I'm sorry to say.
Look Guru, I used to like your posts and you might be very clever and all that, but I don't want to hear about your 'Pussy' (your word) exploits, and I imagine most of the persons (and in particular I imagine most of those of the Female persuasion) who grace this forum don't either.
Does your wife read what you say about her ??
Is it just me who thinks your comments tasteless ?
I had hoped this kind of 'lads' talk had died out in the public arena, and we lived in a modern world but it seems not to be so. Just save it for your mates down the boozer eh ?
Do you know what 'sexist' means ? (it's a modern word by the way, perhaps you missed it ?)
Can you imagine any woman writing Tripe such as 'I happen to like dick' in a forum like this one ??
Hardly.
If I talked about my wife like that I'd soon be force fed my balls, chopped up and served on a toothpick with a cube of cheese.
Man ... !
by oz_media
That some of us are still so hung up on words that we find some disgraceful.
I don't think Guru was talking begatively and was just using a common slang name to reference the famale vagina, guess you don't like THAT one either huh?
I actually thought he had a good point, I'd like to be a gyno but after reading Gurus post, I guess all the 'vagina' in the world wouldn't make you an OBGYN.
As for 'I happen to like dick' I'm absolutely POSITIVE I read that same comment today. I don't remeber which discussion but I'm sure someone said they liked dick, it was attributed to the posters second personality of Camilla, I think?
I'm sorry MB but I don't think we are really that insulted by the use of the more common slang terms here, it all part of growing up I think, we learn not to be so stuffy and stuck up that mere words become offensive.
So quit being such a vagina and get with the program!
OM (sorry guys, someone had to do it, better me than you, I've got a reputation to build).
by guruofdos
>Does your wife read what you say about her ??
Yes....she's usually sat right next to me!
>Is it just me who thinks your comments tasteless ?
Apparently so!
For the benefit of our American friends I should just like to point out that the term 'Merchant Banker' is Cockney Rhyming Slang for 'wanker'.
Okay, here ya' go:
You become what you think about.
-Earl Nightingale
(Think about it.)
by maecuff
I have ADD, so I think about 20 kajillion thinks every day. I'm hoping to develop a multiple personality disorder just to sort everything out. Oh, and I happen to like dick.
Oops, sorry, I think Cassandra must have taken over for a moment.
Today you blame George W. Bush for your failures.
Who will you blame tomorrow?
Who will you blame 10 years from now?
Who will you blame 20 years from now?
The person who is to blame for one's failures and/or shortcomings is the person responsible for them.
Who is that?
by oz_media
And 20 years later, George Bush.
Just having fun! :-)
by jimhm
George can only server 8 (two terms) - then the old man could come back and do another 8 - 16 under the bushes - then Jed could be there for 8 - which would take care of the 20...
Hell this guy could blame the Bushes for years ...
by jimhm
As M Jacksons song says - It's the Man In the Mirror ...
This kid needs to put himself into a reality check... and quit crying about someone in the play ground doesn't like me ..Wa Wa ...
The kid needs to Grow Up - otherwise he'll be offing himself before the 10 year marker... but that could be a good thing ... remove himself from the gene pool ... a Darwin Award winner..
I'll give you that raise for being one of the very few to openly express such an observation - a very accurate one, I might add.
You'll find that most people who post on these threads won't go as far as you (or I) have in mentioning such things, because, I suppose, they don't want to be added to his "list" and become a target themselves.
I happened to agree with his opinion, in this instance, which is unusual, but I rarely agree with his tone and his delivery. He really can be quite vicious, mean-spirited, and relentless in his attacks, so be prepared.
by oz_media
What TONE was that in? Delivery? It's a discussion not a joke.
Who ever said that delivery was important, no point in sugar coating facts, I'm not writing a book.
Well Max, we see the same light here, but you're still so far off base with your elementary school personal analogies that, knowing the truth, would be embarrassing enough for you to change your alias.
by zulj
Why don't you just ignore him?
However it does seem to me that you're just attacking his posts for the sole reason of attacking oz. At least when oz "attacks" a post he has relevant reasons for it.
Did you even read his post? I thought it was really good.
by oz_media
Thanks for your support/distant agreement, but you should know I don't look for help in voicing my opinions.
People such as needs-a-raise just need a life in my eyes and that's security enough for me in knowing how much of a sad poser/loser he/she is.
I know some of you were smart enough to see the point of the story and the fact that the poster was simply begging for a little reassurance, in which case I felt at least my post wasn't negative.
For those who don't understand, they will be the ones who's jobs the newbies will get by determination.
That's enough for me to be satisfied.
Someone like needs-a-raise has neither the intelligence nor the ability to market himself/herself properly and will always be bitter that others succeed in life.
Thanks for your backing though, I kinda like the story, after all these years it still rings true, time and time again.
by jim phelps
I write the following "artistic masterpiece" in honor of Oz, because I'm too lazy right now to check my spelling...;)
I thingk you8r right, OZS, there are opportunities out there, if you'll jugw go get them,
by oz_media
LOL !! HAHAHAH!
Ok Ok, I'll use the little ieSpell thing more often!
I think it's just my typing style. Like a home taught pianist, I can play the song but my fingers aren't hitting the right keys.
I think that's why I always get the orphane dletters.
by jellimonsta
One encouraging thing huh?
[q]
Marshall Ferdinand Foch (1851-1929) Supreme Commander of Allied Forces in 1918
My centre is giving way, my right is in retreat; situation excellent. I shall attack.
[/q]
by mallardtooxx
No matter what the situation you must push forward or face certain annihilation.
-duck
by mrafrohead
This whole fiasco that we are experiencing at this point and time isn't due to Bush. If that is the only reason you're not voting for him, I'd check your facts.
We were on this downslope as the keys were handed from Clinton to Bush. The fall started with Clinton. It just wasn't bad yet.
As for the industry. It's starting to pick up. It will be better soon enough. If you can just stand still and have faith, you'll see it will get better.
Remember, shit has to get bad in order for us to really appreciate the good!
Mrafrohead
by dawend
Not good enough though.
Me ? Offended ? Hardly.
Disgraceful ? Your word not mine.
Growing up ? Please.
Nope ...
Just speaking my piece. Now I know you are in the music biz, as I have been too, and such language is fine there, but not out here in OfficeLand methinks. Not if you want to stay employed anyway. Try talking about 'pussy' in the modern office and you'll soon see a harassment suit clunking onto your desk, believe me. And I agree about not being stuffy and it would be nice if many folks weren't, but here we are in the modern world and that's how it is.
By the way ...
Next time I see a 'famale vagina' I'll take a picture for you. You used to be funny and interesting Oz old bean, but your running dry and resorting to dissing and ranting. Take a break and recharge.
Straighten up man !
PS ... it's still wrong to talk about your wife like that to strangers. Surely you are not too far gone to see that ?
by jimhm
Now - I took my pussy out for a walk the other day -- have you played with your pussy today??
The Term has many different meanings - so standing around in an office environment saying the word pussy is nothing. Now if you said something about playing with your Wifes Pussy - or boy Her Pussy was good... then you have crossed the line...
But Mr. Banker - you can't get into trouble with just that one word - same with Dick - I really like Dick - could mean that Richard is one hell of a nice guy and you respect him and like him as a person - "I Like Dick" .. Now if you said "I Like COCK" that is another story all together..
The word doesn't get you into trouble it is the context of its usage... As George Carlin says of the seven words ... Cock is safe word to use by itself - so is Sucker - but put them together and your context is incorrect... can you name some others... Pussy is safe - Dick is OK - Tit is OK - put them with other OK words and the context is wrong ...
All in the words usage - its a word - it can't harm anyone - it can't cause you physical pain -
by oz_media
Actually, the last office I worked with was a large telecom company that had literally NO rules whatsoever about what was said in the office. Most of the girls were worse than the guys.
Before that I was the Quality Assurance manager for one of the US's largest phone companies (based in Canada due to FCC monitoring regulations). The girls language there made me look like Art Garfunkle.
I've never worked in an office where I couldn't tell my boss to F-Off when he is an a-hole, nor where the women are offended by such a vanilla term as pussy, they accepted MUCH harder descriptions of the female anatomy than that.
The music industry is no different than most, you meet, you plan, you conduct normal business just like any other company. The difference is when your are on tour, the roadies keep it interesting then. The bands fight, the fans fight, the media fights it's just a big bash. Day to day though, it's just like any other business. Gone are the days of heavy metal bands tearing apart hotels and due to the STD's nowadays, MOST musicians are better off married and faithful. The odd backstage party goes off the deep end, but I used to be a security manager for the Coliseum (way back in the OD Canucks days) so I have no problem getting things sorted.
I think you just need to realize, if something offends you, it probably doesn't effect others unless they are as starched as you. TV has desensitized most people's outlook on what is acceptable language in an office.
As for speaking about your wife in a certain way, I think that is up to his wife, some find it humorous, some may be offended. For you to preach how someone talks about their spouse is really off track and uncalled for.
I see.
So my views and a few simple observations are now 'Preaching' it seems. Well you should know preaching when you see it eh Oz ?
For the record.
I was not at all offended, just sharing my opinion. I thought this to be a reasonable course of action, given that this is a Forum. It now seems to be clearly revealed that neither of you two can read properly, nor can either of you fools divine that my grasp of English is more than adequate, and furthermore JimHM, I do realise that there is such a thing as context, you patronising tosser.
Oops .. there I go, preaching again. I'm sorry Oz, that'll be your reserved patch eh ? You've been posting here too long and too much Oz, and now you believe your own image alas.
MB.
by mrafrohead
First,
"In the case of discouraging someone who wants to try something new, I won't generally join the herd. I am still one who believes that you can do or be ANYTHING you choose."
Even a bat??? **wocka wocka**
Second,
Who was this post directed at, I'm confused and trying to make sense or the order, or lack thereof going on here.
Mrafrohead
by mrafrohead
Can't we all be civil?
needs-a-raise - point taken. I can say I understand it. I've seen very negative things come from Oz's fingers, BUT on a flipside he does seem to stick with what he says. And, I've also seen some good things, more lately, which is rather impressive.
Maxwell and OZ, now I know Maxwell's character relatively well. He's been here probably quite a long time before I ever arrived and he's honorable. As Oz also is appearing to be to me.
Now I know the both of you are strong, strong personality types, but maybe put your differences aside for the better of the community.
I think we all ( or at least me ) will benefit from it.
And to answer your question Oz, "Well Max, we see the same light here, but you're still so far off base with your elementary school personal analogies that, knowing the truth, would be embarrassing enough for you to change your alias."
After the word "here", it all goes down hill. The point is quite mean and could be worded a different way that is not as condescending.
You and I have talked plenty of shit to each other, I KNOW you know what I'm talking about here...
Mrafrohead
by jimhm
Lets see "Wa-Wa No One Pat's me on the Back - Wa-Wa" - Because I suck at my job and don't know what I am doing... I am going to blame someone like - George W. Bush for my problems. Ya that's it - its not that I suck and know nothing about technology or my job - its because George W. Bush is in the white house..
Now if we had Al Gore in the White House - things would be better and I still would suck and not know anything about technology but they would be forced by law to pat me on the back ... Yea ...
Liberal - Not My Fault
Grow Up - Get a Set of Balls - If they aren't pating you on the back - It may very well be you SUCK at your Job and know little about technology... Face it - You may just suck at this field and should go and become a Chef or something else..
by onbliss
by onbliss
...Moving out to a different country.
You could go and work for some time. You get to travel and see new places/culture/people. [You might also end up seeing how bad it is outside US and might thank the luxury you have now]
You can return when you feel comfortable...
Plenty of people, in the countries that perform outsourcing jobs, need to learn the American culture/language/people. You might get into consulting and teach those. It can be interesting and rewarding.
Just a thought
by oz_media
There are millions of Canadians who have no idea about the American culture.
They don't really WANT to know, but would put up with it between periods of the hockey game.
You'd soon realize you didn't want to go back to the US (as many US visitors do) and would end up learning how to curl.
(Curling is a Canadian sport played on a looong strip of ice with scoring and objectives similar to shuffle board.)
Com on over, eh? Just don't forget the Muklucks, they'll keep your feet warm in the igloo.
by onbliss
I was not thinking of Canada, England, South Africa, Australia or New Zealand ....you get the drift don't you. But for the 'eh' is Canada really different from US? LOL. Just kidding....LOL Sorry could not help getting some free devious pleasure,buddy.
But, I did think about countries like China, India, Ireland, Romania, Philipines, Srilanka, Brazil, Bulgaria, Russia, CIS countries etcetra.
Somebody please pass the globe to OZ :-)
by jimhm
No thanks been to New Found-Land in winter - No Thanks ... 20 some feet of snow ... Colder than a witches tit in a brass bra ..(Old saying here in the states - haven't a clue what it means..) ..
To Freeking cold up there ... if I was to relocate it would be to the Islands Ma'n - down to Jamica or Turks - white sand - blue water - warm weather - naked women ... Not women bundled up like a bear ... dam... Give me the sun..
by jkaras
by oz_media
I think they get so screwed up because the message level gets reached so quickly. A segue lasts a couple of POSTS off the main thread and that's it.
Oldefar had said
"Call it salesmanship, brown nosing, sucking up, or business sense it still had nothing to do with IT specific skills..."
He seemed to think that my response to someone looking for ONLY positive input was sucjing up.
Whatever, you know me better than that yourself.
by oz_media
It's all been faries and unicorns between us hasn't it? LOL
As for Max, he's the first person to jump on someone else's POST and say "yeah , me too, Oz is ..." Which I think is actually really immature coming from someone with such respected status, here at least.
You know VERY WELL that I don't back down, nor do I get pushed by a nobody who thinks he's somebody.
I've tried to becivil with Max and from time to time, we actually discuss something without it going too far off base.
As someone who considers himself quite clever, he is often the first to take a really pathetic stab, to which I punch right back.
I don't care what someone thinks about me, it's just that he is so insistent on thinking he's got me figured out and spreads his BS like cancer at any chance. Truth is, he is EXTREMELY mislead and way off base, I woun't acept that kind of an attempt at defaming or slandering me when he is so wrong. If hw was accurate, that's one thing, when he's not, it REALLY pisses me off.
Call me an A-hole, I can be when I choose to be, call me arrogant, I've ALWAYS been arrogant.
Call me a liar and I'd rather tear your face from your lower jaw with my fingers and laugh hysterically at your quivering, gurling throat. Have you ever listened really carefully to someone who's been throated? The gurgly noise it's REALLY amusing, I've heard it twice (not from my own doing) and it's pretty funny.
by oz_media
are the Bush's just a bunch of inbred redknecks? Cousin Mary-Sue meet your new daddy/brother/uncle.
Personally I think you're all screwed! Get out while you can, Run Forest Run!!
Well our good ole Frenchie that runs the country is gonna hang up the gloves soon too, he wasn't so bad though, a little passive (apart from choking reporters) but that keeps it quieter anyhow.
All I can say is, "da eet's been aaa long time uh, and we da pepOl are about to 'ave a new one 'ere soon yaknow?"
by oz_media
I used to live in Nova Scotia, you're right VERY DAMN COLD!!!
In BC, we have had an (alleged) water shortage this year, not enough snow on the mountains. We got our first day of rain in AGES yeaterday ( not really a day of rain but I think it showered) It's HOT, DAMN HOT here now, I wish itwould cool down. The forest fires finally got a little rain to help.
As for snow, it didn't touch the ground here last year, the year before I think we got a couple of inches that slushed and disappeared in a couple of days. The mountains wre shut down and only had a very short season. Climate wise it's usually warmer than Seattle here.
Yes, Newfoundland and Southern BC are two VERY different places.
by jkaras
by onbliss
Well this article should interest you then...
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/articleshow?msid=184460
by oz_media
I noticed that many people are pointing at companies who are looking for outrageous qualifications, ie. 10+ years for a 3 yr old program.
How do you know this? Where does this info come from ? The newspapaer? Who looks for work in the newspaper, I thought someone said there ARE no jobs advertised any more, or at least very few.
In my last three positions, I never knew what the company was looking for, it was irrelevant, I just go to them and tell them how I can help, I don't even know if they were hiring at the time. Then I justify my promises by actions and eventually they can't find enough for me to do. By then, I want more money or I visit someone else who may or may not realize they need me.
I think many of you need to put a little more effort into presenting yourself, gaining a little more self worth, having some pride in what you do differently and telling the company WHY they NEED you, instead of looking for someone who wants someone with your skills to do something THEY think they need, it way too late by that time, usually the guy is already hired and company policy says they HAVE to advertise for a while.
This is YOUR expertise, how does and HR manager know what the company can gain from hiring you? How does a sales manager know how you will help his portion of the business and increase sales efficiency?
If they knew what they needed, they'd have it. I think the strongest thing an IT member can offer is insight as to how the company can do better or keep up with the others.
You certainly arent the only one who has seen discouragement judging by the comments to your post...
I have been tinkering with computers since college and am relatively new to the Industry, I have been discouraged as well... I have also been very high hopeful... and recently have found myself back in the middle... I think my growing desire to learn new things, even if it is the smallest thing I can learn (related to IT or not) keeps me going. When I decided to go into IT, the technology industry was all the rage, and it drove me crazy that I was still in school, now that the dot bomb is over (for now) I am glad I missed the layoffs and problems...
Hang in there man.... there are good things coming for all of us I think, although they may not be here as quickly as before
These are indeed different times than we saw just a few years ago, but different doesn't necessarily have to mean worse. There hasn't been a time in all of history, regardless of where in the world you may be, when the status quo, whatever it may have been, didn't eventually undergo a change of some sort. The ability to adapt is what ensures continued success (or, in some cases, survival) - well, adaptation along with diligence, determination, self-responsibility, and focus. (Throw in honesty, respect towards others, and eternal optimism, and you have a most satisfied person.)
Downturns and/or hard times don't necessarily mean that things have to be hard or down. But it does mean that you may need to look around a bit, and perhaps shift your efforts and focus. People make money in the stock market - even when stock prices go down. People find jobs when there are apparently none. People make their own jobs and find - or create - a market for their service or product. People constantly find ways to adapt to present circumstances.
When you blame another for your problems, whether those be employment problems or whatever, then by default you must also give them credit for your successes. Personally, I don't buy into such thoughts. I take credit for my achievements, and I take responsibility for my shortcomings. To do otherwise suggests that my own future - indeed my own life - is controlled by others. That's a suggestion I simply can't accept.
There have been a lot of messages posted to this thread that did, in some way, offer something of encouragement - even if some of them sounded rather harsh. But don't put your future (successes or failures) in the lap of someone else - especially some politician in Washington DC. Tap into your inner reservoir of strength and determination (we all have it), assess the circumstances in which you find yourself, define where it is you want to go, and chart the course necessary to take you there. There is a way, if you just look hard enough.
Here's just a couple of ideas; they may or may not be for you. You want to get into the IT field, but no one will hire you. Well, offer to work for free for a predetermined amount of time - just to prove yourself and your abilities. Almost any company will find a spot for a really good person. Or how about this. I assume that you're a relatively smart and personable person, and that you have a good grasp of basic computer and networking concepts. Ask yourself this. How many people do you know (or don't know, for that matter) that don't have your skills but have a desperate need for them. How about the family down the street that doesn't know how to protect their kids from the dangers of the Internet? How about the grandmother who shops on ebay but doesn't have the foggiest idea how to keep her computer free of bugs and viruses? How about that small mom and pop store that may need help understanding how to implement a backup process? There are needs out there. Find them, and fill them. The rest will just fall into place.
Best of luck to you.
by oz_media
The devestation of the BD Fires is horrible. I love the trees and country of BC, it is, without any doubt, the most beautiful place I've visited or even seen in my life. I've been to France, Germany, Switzerland, Japan, many US States and across Canada (just to name a few). NOTHING stacks up to BC for it's sheer beauty and wilderness.
The fires were devastating, unless you go looking for them, you wouldn't know we had fires. BC is a REALLY big place and only a very small portion of it is inhabited by people. If you were to visit Kelowna, you'd see the destruction, same with the Okanagan. These are two EXTREMELY small parts of BC though (not to say they are insignificant though).
The reason the fires got so out of control here is because they are too quick to jump on forest fires and extinguish them without them burning their needed course. This creates a HUGE bed of tinder and an overgrown forest to fuel future fires. They are getting smarter and starting to let them burn their own course but still have a long way to go with controlled burns etc.
If you took the time to visit BC, I would be surprised if you saw the fires, but if you DO come to BC, don't stop in Vancouver too long, it's just a city, visit Vaqncouver Island and the Interior, you will be breathless and pining to return asap. I promise you!
by road-dog
Canada's natural areas are awesome. I did some time at CFB Cold Lake in Alberta. A couple of the guys rented some canoes and tooled around Cold Lake. Out in the middle of it, the water was 60+ feet deep, and you could see the bottom.
My unit's aircraft bombed the range out there, and we had to go out with the EOD guys and dig out all of the duds and blow them in place. Afterward, we filled in the holes.
The Canucks were really nice to us, and the chow was fantastic as compares to the typical fare at a Marine base.
Needless to say, a great time was had by all...
by oz_media
Yes I've spent quite a bit of time at the CFB there. VERY COLD (as the name suggests) but truly stunning to say the absolute least.
Unless people have seen it first hand, they haven't a clue how gorgeous it really is here.
That's Northern Alberta, Alberta has some phenomenal sights, Jasper, Banff etc. I think my favorite place, other than my home outside Port Hardy has got to be the Canadian Rockies. Between BC and Alberta, along the Great Divide (big crack), there is no place like it.
by jimhm
Oz man - how did this happen she thinks we are both on the same page ... Ahhhhhh - Run -
You and me - same .... Oh God what happened -
Oh my - we are both Foolish people -
"Oh No Mr. Bill, not name calling"
I guess the banker must know - they is one of themthar VP'ers supervisor types people that knows people..
Vern what are we going to do - we is in the same boat ... agggggg
by oz_media
It seems that we have another person here who can analyze written words and assertain someone's character. Makes me wish I was smarter, these guys just have it ALL figured out!
As for us being of similar mind, better you than Mr. Banker, I'd have to censor my entire vocabulary to accomaodate his anal attitude, whoops! I said anal.
Oh well Jim, one day by some sheer stoke of luck, I may be able to meet someone as brilliant as Mr. Banker, but I'm sure I would simply be overwhelmed by it and would stutter and stumble my way through it with sweaty, nervous palms.
What a knob, people have NO IDEA who they are talking to here and yet they constantly try to analyze someone based on discussion comments. This tells me straight up that the person has absolutely NO IDEA how to really analyze a personality.
"was not at all offended, just sharing my opinion. I thought this to be a reasonable course of action, given that this is a Forum."
Opinions are not accepted here, it took me some time to realize that if you have something to say, it better be linked to a website and the rest of the peers must agree with it. It's not really a discussion, this is a place for like minded people to agree on matters to reinforce a sense of personal security and well being.
Mr. Banker, you should know that, you ARE so clever and everything, just pull out the Magic 8-Ball and you can analyze this post too.
"Oz is a Sr. contributor in the TR community, so seriously... Pay some respect"
Oz isn't a senior contributor to TR - he posts voluminous amounts of mostly b-s and hateful venom. Then when someone like me comes along and calls him on it, he cries like a little girl... Senior Contributor? HA!
by oz_media
You've made several statements that I cry like a little girl and you've said that I need a 2X4 up the side of the head.
I've offered to give you my address, so if you wish to be cool you can put your money where your mouth is and call me on it. You are more than welcome to visit, I've got a spare room in a house only a block from a really nice lake.
During this time, you'd be VERY welcome to attempt any of the threats you've posted here while cowering in your mommy's basement behind your computer. Instead of making idle threats, that stuff's for the kiddies that sit on the band forums all day, why don't you either A) Shut the hell up because you have NO clue or B) Call my bluff and show up at my place so you can meet your maker.
Why is it that all the little weenies think they're tough when hiding behind the computer?
Ask your mom for bus fare and show yourself child or shut the F-K up ya lille wiener!
As for you pushing my buttons, you don't. I simply can't tolerate someon ewho THINKS they are clever hiding in the darkness and uttering immature threats. Again, if you want my address. ozmedia@excite.com I'll put the coffee on.
by vida
Everyone and Everywhere, life's rough and supporting yourself/family - whatever isn't a cake walk - deal with it or sign up for government support.
I've had a Very rough go of it for 6 years and don't get a fraction of this response to serious job dibilitating situations I encounter and post for any input at all.
Life is stress and scary and unsupportive.
I managed on my own - with a nurse's assistant badge just incase...
a bunch of sissy girls is all most of you are anyway.
by oz_media
You say noone offered any support to your cries for attention. Then you call everyone sissy girls, gee I wonder why you never got any responses.
If you're bitter because you're ignored, there may be a erason you've been ignored. Calling people sissy girls would be a good place to start looking.
I see the point of your post, and I'm sure you've had the hardwest life of anyone here, I mean, when problems arise, we all just giggle our way down to the MacDonalds playground.
Don't flatter yourself, you may have had a hard life, many of us have. Don't single yourself out and then slam others for not responding.
by vida
i don't post for attention - that's your game.
i was specifically referring to posts for industry/job related support - and my direct and invaluable advise came from a very small number ? which has greatly helped in weeding out the professionals from the click-mentality bash-hounds. I mean honestly, the only reason I even replied to this string is that I saw all the ?usuals? and was in a bad mood myself.
ashamed for lowering myself to your incompetent ways ? but admittedly got over my own bad morning from it ? shame, shame...
my life wasn't/isn't bad I take care of that myself ? i was just saying that in general things aren't all easy, we all have to deal with shit in some form or fashion;
take accidentally running across one of your posts for instance...
by the way, my rough go is here in this industry dealing with all the sissy girl techs like yourself, too arrogant and pompous to provide any real answers or support in Any forum.
by oz_media
I moved three months ago, but as I've said before, you are more than welcome to send me email and I'll give you my address.
Quit hiding little man/woman, stand up and be counted or shut up.
by oz_media
Well a guy posts a thread to look for encouragement and it turns into the ever so popular TR flame session (we should get tshirts for that).
To see how IT staff handle day to day discussions would be enough to make me think twice about an IT career.
To max, don't worry, there's just a lot of pent up anger here. That happens when people don't meet face to face and simply see pictures in thier heads and form opinions.
IT is still a very stable career that has a strong future, sorry but I can't see computers going the way of BetaMax!
Most importantly, do what you WANT to do, not what a given market dictates. The only person that can stop your from progressing is YOU. other people can stand in your way but they can't stop you if your determined to make a go of it.
Note: It staff are usually pretty cool people, some a ilttle dorky but that comes with the teritory right? Just because some IT staff and other shut-ins argue about opinions in a very immature manner doesn't mean that IT is not somewhat of a profession.
You will succeed, but only if you want to.
Good luck, it'll get better in time. :-)
OM
by jimhm
Oz you going soft on me with this, you really want to give Max a pat on the back? For What? a Post of "Ive been working my tail off this past 2 years to become a part of this industry and all I want is to hear is one encouraging thing."
What the hell do you think the rest of us have been doing the past 4 or 5 years. What do you think some of us had to do when we got laid off during the BJ Clinton years.
Max - is a wa-wa-wa boy ... needs his Nappies changed - tipped a little nipple (OK I'll take one of these myself)... Needs to Grow up. He is paid to do a Job - not get his butt kissed for doing it. And he could even suck at it - doesn't say what his annual review said.
Oz - man you've gone soft ...
by oz_media
That's funny! The only time I've seen an annual review is when an American company bought the 20 year old Canadian company I was working for and sank it in less than a year. Sorry guys, but in the three times I've seen American companies buy Canadian companies, they have all gone titties up in a year. We don't think the same about service and people, our companies will NOT succeed under the same management styles as the USA employs.
As for my being soft with max, he was looking for a little wind for his sails (not an offense that I'm aware of), I answed with a very simple little story told to disgruntled salesmen for many years. It turned into one of the most active threads on TR and now is becoming a 'flame war' (still hate that phrase) because some people don't have the intelligence to understand it's meaning.
I don't know what's sadder, the fact that people don't feel this guy should be encouraged (quit being so protective and jealous)or the fact that they don't understand a story that even children can see the point of?
It is good for a laugh though, you never know which thread is going to be misunderstood or taken off course, it's like a crap shoot (quick give me the dice).
by oz_media
Maybe he/she's a pearly king/queen!
I know first hand that your wife wouldn't be offended by your language. British people are often called stuck up or snooty, but in reality they are much mroe accepting of things that are Taboo in North America. That's why British TV is better than ours. Canada is getting better, they don't censor the Osbournes on local TV, whereas in the US, MTV's version of the Osbournes is as incomprehensible as Ozzy's accent. Between his Birmingham stutter and having every second word bleeped (like we don't know what they're saying)the show just sucks and loses all it's laughs.
My ex, ex lives in Suffolk and she referes to me as her ex. C*&T. That doesn't mean she's a pig, just that she lives in a more open minded society that doesn't worry about being PC above all else.
I always called her my rat bag, with true respect of course. "Button your lip ratbag" was one of my pet retorts to her.
Now if Mr/Mrs Banker dude/dudette, is from England, I bet that's why Benny Hill got kicked off the air in its first season.
I suppose Monty Pythons isn't acceptable humor, even though they are some of the most highly educated people in the industry and they are loved around the world.
or maybe it's just a result of not getting enough pussy!
by jellimonsta
by wordworker
by jellimonsta
Hey Jeff,
Do you consider the non-profit contract work a viable situation for a moonlighter? I have full time employment but the extra smack always comes in handy and I want to start building projects and employment outside of the four walls of my current employer.
by wordworker
by guruofdos
That's how I started out on my own...sort of!
My company KNOWS I moonlight. In fact, there isn't an employee or manager I haven't done a 'homer' or several for! And that includes the MD.
I also worked for a while for a retail computer store, as a PC Tech in their Service and Upgrade Centre. The 'company' turned away more business than it took in as it wouldn't let their staff work on 3rd party systems. We could only work on equipment we sold or HAD sold. This was so the business covered it's back in case some junior tech 'fried' someones machine!
I printed off a hundred cards, with my name and phone number. If someone turned up with a non-store system and wanted an upgrade or repair, I politely explained the store policy on 'alien' machines, then handed them a card saying 'give this chap a call...I'm sure he can sort you out'.
Many customers were rather shocked to see me turn up at their door, and were delighted to find I could do the job faster, cheaper and more reliably than the store. I also generated a lot of word-of-mouth business that way too. People would say "Don't take it there....they'll charge ?40 but only if it's one of theirs! Mike will come to you, do the job for ?30 AND not care what brand it is." I even recruited four other technicians from the same store to help me out when there was too much work for just me. Within a year, working from my garage, we turned over as much trade as this shop and had an exceedingly good reputation for service and speed. Funny how this store revised their policy after I quit...and then re-employed me to train their techs on 'clone' and third party tricks and tips. After all, the average technician only had Packard Bell and Compaq manuals to learn from!
by oz_media
What kind of senseless drivel is THAT!!!
Why don't you let the guy just die in his little pool of piss. HOw could someone who hasn't had a life NEARLY as hard as me possible warrant getting support ! You guys are all lost, what a nerve!!
Thought it was my turn,sorry. :-)
by wordworker
by oz_media
You are 100% right. You shouldn't be responding to or reading my posts.
Get bent and die soon,
OM :-)
by oz_media
last post wasn't directed at you, that's just how it all lined up.
As for VIda, YES it was directed at you, so once again.
Get bent and die soon,
OM :-)
by jellimonsta
by oz_media
If everyone here had the same drive and perspective, perhapse the whiners would cease. There are so many people complaining that they can't find work or that they have been mislead by the industry.
A little ingenuity goes a loooooooong way!
This is NOT meant to be a poke at the original post by max, he is just wondering what the future holds after reading all the whiny posts about an industry that has gone bad (one of the most progressive industries in the world mind you).
by oz_media
Don't get your knickers in a twist over it.
I guess bollocks is more upto date though.
by oz_media
I hope you know that post was a joke, right? I actually posted something constructive and straight up and then EVERYONE starts slamming me for it. It's great, I can't be right OR wrong!
As for my American mates, I think american peers here MIGHT want to exclude themselves from that group. LOL, I'm definitely not Joe popular here.
Speaking of Molson Golden, I just took one of those, now I've got room for beer. :-P
by mallardtooxx
Hell Oz I'd come tip a few with ya.
-duck
by wordworker
by oz_media
1st round's on me. You're gonna have to get used to eating Canadian bacon with Maple syrup, running from the angry beavers that swarm our city streets and I hope you're comfortable in an igloo, eh?
P.S. Don't forget your touque !
:-P
OM
by guruofdos
1) The IT Market in India is booming...you could always move over there!
2) In 1967 the ratio of computers to technicians was 2:1....it is now 200:1
3) In Europe, 8 out of every 10 households have a home computer...1 out of 10 knows how to maintain it....in North America, 6 out of every 10 households have a computer.
4) Earning ?20 a throw for several half hour jobs is better than not getting one 'larger' job and earning NOTHING.
5) The employment section of my local paper lists dozens of IT vacancies every week. This applies to most local papers around the UK.
6) My local JobCentre has 29 IT vacancies paying bwtween ?14000 and ?27000 a year ($20000-40000)and I am told this is a national and pan-European trend, not just a local 'hot-spot'.
7) I am having to turn work away and I could name at least 20 other people around Europe and the USA having the same problem.
8) Fifteen out of every twenty users who have bought a PC with XP on it are screaming out for people to wipe the drive and install 98...there is real money to be made there!
9) NFP organisations (charities, trusts, etc.) now account for 8% of the demand for IT workers...just because as an organisation they don't make a profit...it doesn't mean they don't pay staff!
10) IT workers still get paid between 13% and 42% above the national average salary in virtually every Western contry. It's higher percentages in Europe and Asia, but still 13% above average in North America.
Finding work is easy. It's consistent work that's hard to find. Salepeople aren't the only ones who can put together a proposal. You can do it.
Sell something. Sell an idea. Sell yourself. Sell a concept. Stop telling people what you have done and tell them what your vision is.
Create an opportunity for yourself. I've done it. I've worked for other people and now I do what I like to do. That's all. I talk to people al day who have computer needs and they all say the same thing. "I don't have the money." Show them how you are going to save them money, better yet show them how they can save time by accomplishing their own work instead of spending the another 5 hours trying to figure out how to connect to a shared printer.
Here's a tip that works!
Give your time to charities by "donating" 2 or 3 hours to tweak their W9x "network" and stand alone machines. Someone in the office needs their broadband tweaked and everyone needs more bandwith. Everyone has storage issues and NOBODY in their orgainization knows how to do it.
On your way out, leave a PAID invoice and some notes on the updates that they could make. On your invoice make sure that you show them your regular rate and apply a discount. Show it on the form. Then on the bottom of the form add that the account is paid in full. All you need to do then is write it off on your taxes as a donation to charity. If you never see these people again at least you can have a tax deduction and a feeling of achievement.
...is one of the best, if not the best, message on this thread.
Well said.
by jimhm
I will agree with you on one point - American Management Sucks - Most have the "We did it at home - it will work anywhere" attitude.
I worked for a company based in the "North" above the Mason/Dixon line. And they purchased a company in New Orleans. Sent down their "Management" teams to straighten them out down there and get them more productive. Well - that work - Not, as you said "Titties UP".
Accidema is to blame for the American management training received in the US, all their training is based on Bottomline numbers, ROI, TOC and cash flow. This is reinforced by upper management and they are never trained in - people skills...
I've been told by upper management - "You and your staff are an assets, to be managed like a computer, phone, office building or other intangible article. We pay you to be productive not think." - and the topper - "You should feel lucky you have a job and are employed by us." ...
I blame the colleges and Accidema for the down fall of the American Management style - with its greediness and its inability to understand the needs of its workers... Its going back to the Mellon - Carnegie - Frick days .... of the late 19 and early 20 century..
by cactus pete
How about management-types that believe it was a success if they come out of the bancruptcy and still have bonuses for themselves.
Why don't they consider bancruptcies to be failures anymore?
This discussion is closed to new replies.
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