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Power supply help (again)

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by markschu

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Hey guys. I have asked some questions concerning upgrading my Dell power supply before and I could use some more help.
I have a Dell XPS 200 which is a small form factor case and the PS is 275W. There is NO larger PS that will fit this case, and I am not ready to build a new system, as I spent close to $1500 on this system in 2006. It has a 3.2 GHZ dual core with 3GB of RAM and I also just put in a 1TB HDD so I do not want a new system for a couple of years again.
I have also upgraded the video card to an ATI HD 2400 PRO which is supposed to require a 300W PS but runs fine most of the time. What happens is, whenever I use my Microsoft XBox 360 wireless adapter (usb) or sometimes when I am running Beyond TV (resource HOG), my computer will shut down. I know this is because I am drawing too much power and my PC is getting too hot and then failing. If I am just running basic programs, it runs fine.
What I am going to do is buy a larger PS (with the Dell PS adapter) and connect it outside my case. I realize this is probably slightly dangerous, but I have no other options left (thanks Dell).
I'm thinking I will gorilla tape (strong duct tape) it to the top of my case and buy longer cables if necessary. I am not worried about anyone getting electrocuted (except myself of course, lol) because, I live alone and no one really comes in close contact with my PC. I also have a air compressor in my shop and open and dust my PC weekly, if not almost daily.
I would like some advice, however, if anyone has ever done something like this (installed a PS outside of their case) and can give me some help or pointers. Or, if there are other options to increase my power so I can avoid anymore power failures.
Thanks guys!

46 replies

by markschu

What are you my mother? Oh, and I would never take advice from a CEO. I think you and your ilk have ruined the philosophy of "living within your means" for the next couple of generations at least. Jagoff...

by john3347

Santee, is using a bit of ingenuity to avoid unnecessary expense not an obvious attempt (and accomplishment) at living within the person's means. What would you recommend the person do; Go out and buy a several hundred dollar item on credit?

by santeewelding

Bolting the MB to the top of his desk, where he can keep an eye on it, and run the longer connections the other way, without buying a new case, is where this thing seems to be heading.

I regret only that I did not suggest he also reason within his means, rather than endlessly try the patience of so many good folks.

by tink!

I've done something similar with a much older unit.

I had an old (and I mean [b]OLD[/b] - this PC had Windows 3.1 installed!) unit that I acquired from a family member. Somewhere down the line the original power supply got shorted and was only supplying about half of what the computer needed. Therefore I took a power supply from another old computer and hooked that one up in addition to the original power supply. If I remember correctly (I no longer have the unit) I used one power supply to run the hard drive(s) and the other to run the rest of the computer. Since, of course, the case was not built for 2 power supplies I had one facing front and left the front part of the case off. The unit now looked quite atrocious with cables coming out both ends, but it worked. As there weren't any exposed wires, I wasn't worried about electrocution. This was the first home computer my children began on.

by mjd420nova

Nothing wrong with mounting a power supply outside the unit and with a bit of ingenuity you could even bolt it to the outside cabinet. You just have to remember to turn on both units unless you use a power strip and the power supplies are of the old school type on/off switch and not a soft type front panel switch. It would be best to turn on the harddrive power first in sequence and last in a shut down.

by unhappyuser

You could buy an empty (universal) PC case (with or without a PS) for probably under $50. Transfer everything into the new box and you're all set.

If you don't want to do that you can follow Tinks lead. We did something similar temporarily on a server whose motherboard died but could not be down (production machine). We used a smaller server to run the system but left the hdd's in the broken unit. We disconnected everything from the big server, except the hdd's, and grounded it to the temporary server. It worked without issue for three days until the new motherboard came in. If you don't mind a mess it will work!

EMD

by markschu

Wow, that IS an old PC! lol... I'm wondering why you didn't just install one new PS? I think that's what I want to do. Here is my PC: http://support.dell.com/support/edocs/systems/xps200/sm/techov1.htm
If you scroll down to "back view", "Inside View of Your Computer" and also to the bottom of the page, you can see the size and placement of my PS. I'm thinking I will just remove this PS, purchase a Dell PS adapter: http://www.endpcnoise.com/cgi-bin/e/std/sku=dellconverter (which I have discovered I need because most Dell PC's are proprietary) and then connect a new Antec or Nexus PS to the top or side and run the cables through the hole where the old PS was powered. What do you think?
Also, do you think I should stay relatively close to my stock PS size(275W), like maybe 350 or 400W? Or is it better to go bigger, say 600 or 700W? I have this PC pretty much at the highest end I am going to be able to upgrade right now, so I don't think I would need ALL of that power anyways. Thanks for your help guys!

by ---tk---

I would probably pick up something that can handle SLI or crossfire... Eventually you might build another PC, and if you do, you shouldn't need to pick up a new PS... I would go with something around 650 Watts... also you will not use all of the power unless the system requires it...

I did the same thing, as long as you know the risk... its up to you :) Frankenstein PC's are always fun!

I would think dusting out your PC every week, might be a little to much... Dust under the right condition will hold a charge, aggravating the dust can push it in just the right spot, in short... you could short out your motherboard or some other part for that matter... Just a though, take it as a grain of salt :) Odds really are low, that that would happen, but its just something to think about....

by tink!

with the way you are proposing to do it. I also don't think you need to up your power any higher than what is actually called for.

As for why I didn't just replace with 1 power supply?

1- means: no money to buy a new one and the extra one I pulled wasn't strong enough by itself either.
2- resources: the other old computer was sitting unused (except as a monitor stand - it was the perfect height :p ), so might as well use it's power supply.

by hal 9000

Not so much bigger but better PS's are a much better idea here.

There are two types of PS the ones rated to a Peek Value and those rated to a Constant Feed of their Rated Value. I would go for one like an Antec 350 or 400W as these are the equivalent of a 500W or bigger cheaper unit. Though the bigger you go it will not do any real harm.

Col

by jamesrl

According to a quick internet search, your XPS200 has a BTX form factor mother board. There are cases out there that fit both an ATX and a BTX motherboard. Buy one, transfer your components in, and install a bigger powersupply. Problem solved.

James

by markschu

Thanks for responding James. Could you tell me where you found that info on the XPS 200? It's been hard for me to get any straight answers out of Dell about my system. I thought my MB was an ATX actually...lol. I had thought about doing just what you said before, removing all my components and transferring to a new case, but people have told me that the MB will not fit or that the connectors in back won't fit right, etc., because it's a Dell. I'm sill quite a newb when it comes to PC building related areas. Obviously, if this is possible, I would love to do it but how can I be sure my motherboard (and video cards) will fit into a specific case? Kind of confused about this.

by john3347

Mark, a BTX MB is an approximate mirror image of an ATX MB. If you are sitting in front of the computer and the PS2 ports in the rear are at the top of the case; an ATX MB will be mounted to the right wall and the left panel will be the removable panel. A BTX MB will be mounted on the left wall of the case and the right panel will be the one that is removed for service.

The only thing that you have to watch if you are identifying the two MB's by this method is that some models from some manufacturers have an ATX MB mounted with the PS2 ports at the bottom; and it will be mounted on the left side and service panel will be as though it were a BTX MB.

Of course, then an AT MB is similar to an ATX MB in appearance except that it is larger.

by markschu

James just told me I should buy a new case (BTX because of my MB) and transfer everything over. I thought of doing this last year already but people on other forums (as well as this one I tihkn) told me I couldn't because my MB wouldn't fit??? I'm confused!!! Obviously, this would be my first option! Any ideas for an BTX case with a 600W or so PS that would work for me?

by thechas

This may sound silly, but it is pretty simple. Just buy a new case.

Sure, you may need to do some research to either find a case that will work with your Dell components, or that you can modify so the Dell parts fit.

Even for an expensive case, you would only be out no more than $100 (US).

Also, the only real danger of having the power supply outside of the case is cooling air and sharp edges. There is no additional danger from routing the DC cables for the computer back into the case.

You do want to make sure that no metal or liquids can accidentally drop into any vent holes on the power supply.

Chas

by markschu

Chas, I was under the impression (from others on different forums) that I COULDN'T transfer my Dell components to another case because everything was proprietary. I do think this is the best way to go, obviously, I could upgrade in a couple of years again. I probably would have done this already had I known.
I have been told that my MB is an BTX (but it shows ATX connections on the diagram? http://support.dell.com/support/edocs/systems/xps200/sm/techov1.htm). Confusing! I looked up BTX on Wiki and it does say that BTX MB's are mounted on the left side of the case (mine is) so I think that's right.
I was just reading another forum and someone mentioned that I would need a BTX conversion kit and listed 2 compatible cases, both ThermalTake's. The Armor and the Aguila. Any experience with BTX conversion kits or these cases?
Also, I work on a 6' x 4' desk and the PC sits way in the back corner and I can't even touch it with my outstretched hand, so no worries of catastrophe.

by thechas

The most critical aspect of a case is can you properly mount the motherboard.

If you either cannot access the connectors for the onboard devices, cannot plug in cards (if needed), or cannot locate enough screws and standoffs to secure the motherboard, the case is useless.

If need be, when I reuse an old case, I will drill and tap holes, modify standoffs, or find appropriate hardware to make it work.

What you can accomplish along these lines depends on your skills and the tools available to you.

Chas

by thechas

You need to pay close attention to both air flow and cooling when you mount the power supply outside of the case.

Many systems rely on the air being pulled out of the case by the power supply fan to provide cooling for the components inside the case.

You may need to mount a fan in the opening left from removing the old power supply.

If there is an air duct that runs up to the power supply, you will need to make sure enough air flows through the duct to keep the parts near the inlet side of the duct cool.

Also, you need to make sure the power supply has sufficient airflow so that it stays cool. If it has air vents or a fan on the bottom, it will need to be mounted to assure air gets to the fan or vents. Don't block off any vents on the sides or front either.

Chas

by john3347

I recently bought a case from TigerDirect for $18. Just do some research and you can find cases on sale with 400 watt power supplies for less than $40. (Just be aware that the power supplies in these $40 cases are prone to premature failure.)

by hal 9000

The leads on these are longer so they shouldn't need extending. :)

Though you just need to join any external PS Electrically to the Case so that any Buildup of Static gets Bleed off. But Honestly I would just buy a new case the only real possible problem is that the IO Plate will be different and these can be removed from most cases and changed.

Event he cheap Cases have Front Panel USB and Sound as well as at least a 300 W PS.

Col

by half9

i would go for a mid tower at least, with plenty of slots and get a good 600w PS, more room to work in and probably more cooling fan holes too, I just built up a perspex case with 4 fans and it looks so cool with the lights installed. It was a breeze to set up, came with all the spacers pedestals ect, and they even had a clear PS to match tne case available in the sales blurb

by markschu

Those perspex cases are pretty cool. A bit more than I'm ready to tackle right now though I'm afraid. Maybe when I build a new PC...thanks : )

by markschu

I've been looking at the ThermalTake cases and they look Per-ity cooooool....lol. Although the conversion kit is an extra $30 :( lol. I'm just kind of worried that if I do go with the new case-transfer route, that a regular BTX case would still be small enough that my PC shutting down due to overheating problems might not be completely solved.

by oh smeg

But with the Antec ones it's just fine not an issue at all.

If the unit is overheating it's because a Fan isn't working once you go to a Big Enough PS. Right now the problem is that the PS is cutting back to prevent burning out and this is causing problems elsewhere.

With a decent PS and a new case if you run into any problems with heat it's just a matter of adding some Case Fans to improve the Air Flow through the case.

What I think you'll find is happening now is that when the PS cuts back on it's output the CPU and PS Fans are going slower and this is allowing things to get too hot.

Col

by markschu

where I have taken it in before and I know they have some new cases there. With all of the money I spent there, I'm sure they would let me try it out, although they probably would be on me to buy it as well...lol.
The cases you are describing that take both ATX and BTX, that is what the BTX conversion kit is needed for, right?

by john3347

I had a pieced up computer one time that didn't allow the power supply that I had available to fit in the space provided in the case. I did, however have a suitable space in the bottom of the case. I just set the PS loose and let 'er rip. If you have the space, but don't feel comfortable with the box "bouncing loose", secure it with some double stick tape - the thick stuff that is about 1/8" thick. If memory serves me correctly, I had to lay the power supply upside down to avoid blocking the fan. I didn't have any overheat problems with that particular setup caused by the power supply not venting outside the case.

p.s. I don't remember now, but I probably removed a PCI card slot cover to run the power cord.

by markschu

...as my PC uses USB for the KB (mouse connects by USB to KB) but my MB is mounted on the left side and the right side opens for service. I am just worried about holes matching up with a standard BTX case because of the way Dell does everything proprietary. (I even need to use this when I have a new PS: http://www.endpcnoise.com/cgi-bin/e/std/sku=dellconverter) I guess I'll have to SEE some BTX cases and try my MB for sure before buying or just go on a wing and a prayer. There is always RMA if it doesn't fit or convertor kits (for an ATX to BTX case) but then it might not fit the conversion kit either! *pulls more hair out*

by markschu

...the conversation any time. I do not WANT or NEED your opinion on this matter. These good folks CHOSE to HELP me. they are not interested in condescending, judging, or preaching, which is about all you seem capable of contributing. I also do not give two shits if my punctuation is correct nor do I like fucking peas. Go find another board to haunt.

by markschu

pretty cool. OK. Here: http://www.antec.com/pdf/CaseComparison.pdf it shows the comparisons between cases, with the motherboard compat. on top on the right. However, it does not have a cat. for BTX, which we have established I own. Could you please clarify if I need to have a case that specifically says BTX, or if I can use a different size. Maybe I should email Antec? *What was my first clue, right, LOL*

by oh smeg

Well at least I would.

I'm not a lover of using adapters in any form and I wasn't suggesting the Skeleton for your needs here just responding to a comment about a Perspex Case above. :)

Personally I would be surprised if Antec doesn't already have something on the Drawing Boards for the BTX M'Boards but as things stand currently I would stick with a Real Case as these provide protection from RF and other sources of Interference that may prove difficult to deal with under other circumstances. A computer case is still a Faraday Cage around the Internal Components that bleeds off any thing that it collects to Earth so it's Important to have a Working Earth Connection here.

Col

by oh smeg

If that Anvil is a sample of their Work I'm impressed no obvious repair at all. :D

Col

by markschu

are all full of...wait for it...GREAT ideas! Thought I was going to say something else didn't ya? ; ) I finally realized (at about 3AM) that all I really needed to do to insure the least hassle was to look at the bigger XPS models above mine! I found that these power supplies were not only bigger, but had the same voltage settings, thereby allowing me to bypass all adapters. Take a look here:
MY PS: http://support.dell.com/support/edocs/systems/xps200/sm/techov1.htm
NEXT XPS MODEL (XPS 400): http://support.dell.com/support/edocs/systems/xps400/sm/techov.htm#wp1053345
As you can see, the 3 connectors that I need are identical to the 3 on the 400 PS! The only concern I still have (I was going to start a new thread actually) is that under the first connector (DC Power Connector P1) 3 of the wires use 22 gauge and on the 400 PS they only use 18 gauge. Do you think this will matter? I could always crack open my old PS and attach the wires to the new PS maybe? Waddya think braintrust?

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