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Server Spec for small network

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by jennifern

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I have a client who just wants to upgrade a 5 user network for a new database application (not a very demanding application, 3 sim users max, and user size not likely to grow much over next 5 yrs). I've just been spec'ing up the hardware, including the machine that will act as server.

The vendors I speak to are hard selling that I need a "Server" as opposed to a well spec'd PC, they site RAID support and HW levelmirroring, both of which I don't need, and when that fails, they site "speed, reliability & efficiency". I've always worked with larger networks, so fully fledged server has made complete sense. But here, is there any reason not to just get a high end PC, a good maintenance contract and a good backup system?

The client wants "the best" but I don't want them just paying for the sake of paying.

Any opinions welcome

25 replies

by timwalsh

On the one hand, you don't want to recommend a sytem they don't need. On the other hand, you don't want to recommend a system that only meets present requirements, regardless of business projections. The trick is always finding the line between prudent overkill, and ridiculous overkill.

Some of the usual advantages of buying a purpose-built server vs. a PC (to be used as a server) include more robust hardware and expandability.

Some questions that need to be asked (if you don't already know the answers) before determining final components are:

What are the hardware requirements for the database? Which components have the biggest affect on the speed and efficiency of the database (CPU, memory, HD size, HD access times)?

How is the size of the database likely to change over time? An increases in size and complexity of the database can have just as much of a detrimental effect on overall database efficiency as an increase in the nuber of users accessing it simultaneously.

What is the criticality of the database to the company's business operations?

Realize that the type of system being purchased (server vs. workstation vs. desktop PC) can affect the type, and level of support offered by the vendor.

by jennifern

Yup, database is critical & I have asked those questions. Answer: CPU speed & RAM gain the main performance improvements. HD size at current standards should be fine for years.

There's not a whole lot of diff in price - (~$500)between a low endserver and high end desktop, but what difference there is could go to upping the RAM & Clock speed, or even getting a second disk for SW mirroring etc etc. In fact I'm getting some good quotes for desktops with higher specs than some more expensivelow end servers.

I take your point about support, and will check that.

by jellimonsta

I have a friend who's company is in a similar situation. Personally, I would recommend the server class system. It does not sound like it is a 24/7 environment so continuous uptime is not really a concern, therefore you probably would not need to worry about RAID or redundant power supplies. However being as it is 'acting' as a server you would (I imagine) have the system running continuously. The only problems with PC class systems though is they are really built to the standards necessary forcontinuous usage.
Low end server systems are fairly low in cost these days and while you can get a high end PC class system for the same cost, it is in my opinion worth purchasing the Server class system.

by jellimonsta

sorry that should read PC class systems are really NOT built to the standards necessary for continuous usage.
I had a senior moment (and I am not even a senior ) :oP

by omie

1. I think before you recommend to your client a system you need to read and be clarified with the features of being on LAN (SERVER) or in a workgroup. Consider you are fully aware of the PRO's and CON's you could tailor a system based on the requirement of your costumer. If you need a centralized file system, network printer, networked based softwares..or even a backup, it is always advisable to set-up the system as LAN, regardless of the number of nodes.
2. The second item also to consider is the user aptitude in using a workstation. One good example is sharing a printer from a workstation in a workgroup environment... Could you believe the complain that they could not print because the workstation that where the printer is attached is off or even they booted up first.
3. Save yourself from a trouble recommend a server.

by admin

to some extent as is a desktop and a workstation. unless of course you're doing the mac, mainframe or some such thing.... you are right in tailoring it to your needs... from my experience with databases though... even if the proggy is not demanding, the time and money it costs to rebuild it if data is lost, corrupted or otherwise damaged it is far worth the cost to go over the requirements of the program when you spec it. I would consider hot swap drives, mirrored, in addition to your back-upswhich I would find a way to keep no more than a week behind (or less depending on how much data changes in a week) off site (yes places do burn, flood etc.). This way they can swap the drives over the phone with you on tech support and then you can pick them up and fix them while it is still running for them and they are happily working away- something they will LOVE you for later unlike the feeling they get when they can't work while you get the manufacturer to fix it and then still have to restore it etc. I would also consider ECC and be pretty wary of maintanance contracts. I could go on and on here, but my experience is that in real life they don't get your 5 users back up using the database in less than a few hours (or days) very often which usually costs a lot more per hour than buying a decent box to begin with.

just my two cents, detractors are certainly welcome! :)

by ghstinshll

This is by far true and reasonable. The Client may have a small need for this machine, but their business needs are more than they can see. Redundant, redundant, redundant.

I've worked in a shop that had non-redundant domain controllers, DHCP servers, DNS servers, etc... every time we had a problem, it took too long to get things back up again. This shouldn't happen to anyone.

Keep your client happy by doing the right thing by them, and you'll keep their business for a long time. Do them wrong and they'll be growing more frustrated with you and end the contract.

by jennifern

I take everyone's point about redundancy...

Feels like server box would be worth it, if we will use a RAID configuration, and so up the price slightly.

by mtberjim

The consulting company I interned with dealt with small networks everyday. The pier-to-pier topology where always a problem, the ones that used server / client topology were always reliable. Most of the servers were Pentium 3?s 750 and up, ata 100 drives, 512 or better memory and tape back up. One option you may want to consider is a on board RAID, 0+1.The cost of 3 ata 100 drives would be nothing compared to having the ability to be up and running again in less than an hour.

by mtberjim

I see the old school is still alive and well. As far as reliability and speed they work just fine. She's not setting up an enterprise, at a guess, a doctor's office. Using ATA will move her away from software RAID and still give her the DR abilitiesof the MUCH more costly SCSI array. She could then afford to implement a tape backup as well. Don't be fooled by the "I don't care what it cost's" comment. Wait till they find out server software costs $1500.00 and antivirus software is $1000.00. She'll spec herself out of the job if she comes's back to them with a $10,000.00 estimate. I?ve seen it happen more than once.

by jennifern

I am only discussing a client/server architecture - don't worry I'm not even considering peer to peer!

My question is just about hardware. I can pick up a PC with 512MB, 120Gig HDD, 2.8mhz, Tape Drive, extra drive bays & expansion slots, I could even add a raid controller... so what's the benefit of buying a box (sometimes with a lower spec) that vendors such as Dell/Gateway etc call a "server" & charge more money for.

by jellimonsta

Server grade components are at a higher level of reliability than those of a PC class system. If the level of uptime is of a concern a server class system is really the way to go. That sounds like a great system you spec'd out, if you want to play video games. If they want reliability go the server route.

by mtberjim

The only concern I have with what you written is having only 1 drive. Tape is good, but if the drive fails, you still have to reinstall everything, set up mappings, shares, permissions and then restore data. Assuming they remembered to change the back up tape and it's still usable. People that work in an office don't take backing up seriously, until they have to recreate a months worth of work. If they can afford it, setup a hardware ata RAID array 0+1 with a spare drive and tell them to sleep well at night.
Good Luck, Jim D.

by ghstinshll

I recommend going to neocomputers.com and configuring a custom server configuration of both SCSI and RAID, and see what your prices are, with backup, etc...

At least there you custom-build everything you need for your application.

If reliability is a major issue for them, go with SCSI, if not, go with IDE, but either way make sure you have RAID and you can move forward with this.

Configure a couple of decisions and have a meeting presenting the pros and cons of both of your decisions and leave it up to "the board", or in this case, the manager in charge.

by info

There is a way to have Raid 5 on a regular PC with ATA Drives, use a regular DAT for a backup, and you can have a good server for a small network for under $1200 USD
2400A $390 USD
3 ATA 20GB Drives $55 USD
Complete Athlon XP 1900 CD COA 512MB $312 USD
get a tape drive and some tapes for about $400
I have found this the best route to go with customers from 5-25 users.

Good luck hope this helps

by leehellcat

How have you found the Athlon for reliability though. I run one at rpesent and find that it runs VERY hot and doesn't perform that well under load ?

I must admit that although it costs a little more, I always edge towards Intel processors for Servers.

by info

I was not endorsing AMD, just using that particular system as an example that you can get a fairly fast system for the customer base the size she was looking for at a fairly cheep price.

Yeh they do run kinda hot if you don't have a good fan. andif you have certain AGP cards with a few boards you have lock ups so you have to be carefull specking out your video(If AGP) board and processor if (AMD). of coarse you should any way though. Once that is done, they are very reliable for a workstation or server. I am not partial to either one.

The main thing I wanted to get across was you can have a Raid 5 server that is fast and will serve the customer well with out spending 2-3k USD. Most customer 5-50 want redundent, and a tape backup andshould have it, and this is how I have help some folks out getting there.

Thanks

by mtberjim

But not in a server, my workstation is an Athlon 2.0 with an IDE RAID setup. It's very fast and very stable. But building a low cost server, I'd still use a P3 pc133 processor and Intel chipset. Call me old school.
To speed up the data transfer I'mstill sold on the IDE RAID.
The funny part is, my server is a 750 Athlon. It's what I had when I needed a box for my web site and mail server. I was going to use it for my son so he could game.

by switchoff_b

Just throwing in my two cents. The company I work for is cheap....really cheap. I managed to put together a file, exchange, pdc, and proxy server to support about 50 users for around $3,000...and was asked if I could trim some things out. HA! Anyways, I've had nothing but reliability with IDE RAID. A Promise FastTrak TX2000 controller and four 120GB Western Digital Special Edition (8MB cache) HDD's. They work flawlessly.

by ghstinshll

When you're 25, you're not considered old school.

ATA isn't recommended, and isn/t the right solution UNLESS it is implemented in a RAID fashion. You didn't mention IDE/ATA RAID, so then its not what's right. In any company, if the data isn't redundant, it's not worth having.

Again, the ONLY way the system will work with IDE/ATA drives, is it it's in a RAID 1, or 0+1 of somthing like that. to get by somewhat cheaper, and IDE system (with PLENTY of RAM) could be built with a RAID motherboard, and buy 3 hard drives. Use one for the OS, and then use RAID 1 to mirror the other two, and all data to be stored on that drive.

$1500 is nothing for a server. That price for a desktop would spec you out of a job, not for a server... (-:{

by leehellcat

I agree, IDE Raid is a good way to go. It is cheap, and you can pick up IDE Drives from Any Computer shop if you need to do an emergency rebuild. Also, you could probably afford to go upto ATA133, an extra 33% for not much more money these days.

I agree with the comment about the server $1500 is darn cheap for a server of any spec. I would not be too fussed about the redundant power supplies if they are slicklers for cost. If they aren't fussed then get them for peace of mind.

Also, the point earlier about using the server as a print Server is a valid one. You should never underestimate the stupidity or an end user!!
I was delaing with a user yesterday who couldn't connect to the Itnernet from Home ...
... turned out his wife was on the phone !!

by ghstinshll

This system will cost more than $1500 no matter where you buy it from, or what hardware it has, with RAID, and a fully licensed Windows 2000 Op System....

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