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Why the elitist attitude?

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by grbeckmeyer 1 view

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I know you've all seen this before if you've worked with many IT people...the 'I'm too technical for you' attitude that many in the industry have. From purposely using tech-speak that is way beyond a customers level to blatant disrespect that somebody doesn't know how to do some simple task. I used to have a customer who ran his own business(es) and dealt (capably, I presume as I believe he was quite wealthy) with many different aspects of those, but he just didn't know jack about computers. I was always happy to work on his computer as it was usually some extremely simple little thing and he would end up praising me up & down for saving him. Same thing with AOLer's and Linux noobs. I personally would never have any AOL software installed on my computer, but how many subscribers do they have now? Is it 9 million? That's 9 million people that now have a computer and internet access that are potential customers to someone like myself! And Linux...I work in a Novell shop and so have been working with Suse Linux to become familiar with it. I use it because of the potential corporate connection, but I'm not 'married' to it, and would be happy to install any other distro if needed. But at a local Linux business meeting a couple months ago, the presenter (a hardcore Linux developer) seemed rather cold at my mention of Suse, like he didn't consider that a 'real' distro since Novell purchased it. Same situation as AOL basically, Novell's direction with Suse has brought a large audience over to take a look at Linux, so I would think that no matter what ties to any particular distro you have, having a few million more people jump into Linux would be a nice step for the greater good of the entire Linux community. These are just my specific examples, I'm not trying to start a war over AOL or Linux distros. My basic idea boils down to 'more people using technology = more opportunity for me when they have problems' I'll be glad to try to 'educate' if they want, but far from being disgusted by people who don't know how to use technology, I would love to meet as many as I could that needed all the help they can get.

36 replies

by dr dij

Unless you want to be the MOther Theresa of computing, it's making a living. Just as you can't feed everyone in the world for free if your a farmer, you can't help everyone with their PC problems for free.

If you want to donate your time that's nice. Many communities have programs to teach seniors and others basics of computers at low cost. And you can find on internet, if you don't get spyware/trojan first. Frankly, some IT guys, to avoid nerd and elitist attitude / stereotype need to GET AWAY from computers on alot of their free time, and be normal people. So they should avoid helping everyone in the world with their computer problems on weekends.

I don't think the majority of IT guys are elitist. However end users do really stupid things and try to get IT guys to fix things really simple things they should figure out for themselve. I.E. IT people seem to be a crutch to avoid thinking.

Besides bothering to learn the basics of whatever computer they're using, computer makers need to make the whole PC more 'foolproof' (and ID10T proof). They need to be more like sophisticated TVs that you can just turn on and use, and be self healing. For example last nite I figured out a problem where access would crash (repeatably) when I started typing in code for a button. I had to browse thru MS site, and download 'Filemon' then browse its log to figure out the problem, way beyond what an average end user could do.

by grbeckmeyer

Let me 'correct' this before it starts going in a totally unintended direction...other than my church, family, and very close friends, I'm not giving away my service. My whole point is that I'd like to see EVERYONE having computers, home networks, wireless, and so on as each of those is one more opportunity for $ for me, versus some that seem to think 'if you don't know how to use, then stay away'. I would agree I don't think the majority are elitist, but there are definitely plenty out there. I also agree with Dr's last point about making computers more foolproof. I think computers today are like cars in the early 1900's...you need to have either above average knowledge to maintain them yourself, or be wealthy enough to simply pay someone to maintain it for you. And yes (for the right $) I'd be more than happy to be some tech-luddite's 'personal mechanic'

by gralfus

When computing first started out, there were the ubergeeks behind the glass that actually worked with the computer, and the others who only accessed it via a dumb terminal. This led to a very real wall between users and the computer geeks. In the unix/linux world, the wall is still very palpable in that you are expected to go learn things on your own by reading the man pages of every command and playing with them until you know how they work, reading any guides you can find, etc. Asking for help from a "guru" (especially at work) usually results in a scowl and a redirection to look it up in the man pages "just like I had to do".

I feel this is a load of dingo's kindeys and doesn't help those who really do want to learn. Mostly it ensures that only the truly geeky will bother to jump through the hoops to learn, which perpetuates the stereotypes.

I try to be helpful to the clueless, though at times I feel like saying "Just step away from the computer". Some of us who have been using systems for years find it hard to fathom that others don't have even a simple grasp of what they are doing on a PC, or even the basic terminology. I think most would be better off with just a dedicated email device and an Xbox for games, rather than a computer.

by tonythetiger

My gripe is with users who keep making the same mistakes over and over... the ones who don't listen.

Then there are the ones who cannot adapt... teach them how to change the left rear tire on a car but when the right rear goes flat, they are helpless.

by apotheon

Repeat offenders that simply refuse to listen when told how to avoid a problem in the first place are pretty high on my aggravation list, but if they're paying the bills I'll generally just grin and bear it (until I have the opportunity to go complain about it to a sympathetic computer geek, such as some of those here on TR).

by the admiral

Here is the deal:

We have a end user who has spilled coffee into his machine four times. It has gotten to the point that this is a common occurance to him.

I put my foot down and told him that if it happens again, he will get a desktop and will be unable to travel or have a notebook.

He thought that I was being rude, however, after going through $10,000 worth of notebooks in coffee, it was time to put him into a box where he is required to be more careful or do without.

If you have a user who repeatedly does the same things over and over again like they have a mental disability, you have to level set them and let them know that the last time is the last time, and then they are on their own. Plain and simple.

We found that doing it like this, many of them will do without rather than asking again after their "last time."

by dbertsche

stated here, however I can remember several instances early on where I was told how to do a particular thing then when I tried it either didn't work or it didn't work as advertised. In some cases I was able to figure out what the issue was but in other cases I had to go back to the "so called guru" who would at first give an elitist response then wind up with egg on his face when it didn't work for him either!

I've also noticed that some who are very knowledgeable are not good at training others. We have a developer who is great at programming but when it comes to explaining and/or training people to use an application or feature he just isn't real strong in that area.

I understand the frustration with users who never seem to learn but usually you'll find these people are like this with non-computer stuff as well, it's just the way it is.

by jbaker

I think that AOL gets snubbed because it is NOT an ISP, but wants everyone to think that it is. And most IT people have had enough dealings with AOL stupidity that they despise it with every fibre of their beings (I know that I do). If I had to choose between AOL broadband and a tin can with string, I would choose the can.

As far as the other goes, most of the hardcore "geek" types have never really felt accepted by most people, and when there is something that they can feel superior to others about, it is an unconscious response to do so.

by jamesrl

When AOL was an ISP, there was still a great deal of prejudice - AOLoser was a common term back then.

I used to be a consultant to a lot of small businesses in the 80s and was grateful to have clients who paid me good money to teach them or fill in for the gaps in their computer knowledge. I came into IT kinda sideways - I took political science in university and used mainframes to do analysis - maybe thats why I have a different approach than many.

James

James

by dr dij

My niece & nephew used AOL pretty much for the chat with friends, and that's it. Wish they would use it for something educational. So it is an expensive replacement for a phone. Since they had the computer anway and it was dial up, I guess it was cheaper than calling all their friends all day.

Then I know people who get spam, and the AV blocked it, telling them they had rec'd virus email. They got upset and called AOL telling them they had a virus email... In the end I guess computers (and AOL need) to be made easier to use.

Then the AOL email did weird stuff like not let you send jpegs or something like that? sounds odd. Maybe they've fixed it and not everything is in that AOL format.

There's people who tried to cancel, even changed credit cards and AOL had agreement with credit-card company to get latest cc# and keep billing them.

Well, if you need endless IM and chat groups, and don't mind paying alot, I guess AOL is the way to go. They do have lots of built in features.

by the admiral

I can give you the simple answer.

"I don't care what the term is, it just needs to work."

The look of an elitist on the fact is stereotypical, because the people who are paid to do the job of IT know what they are doing and are confident in that.

We have people here writing information about how to turn on notebooks for shipment to customers and don't have a clue as to how to do it. So we have to look at the source.

by jamesrl

using the Internet since 1992....

AOL provided access to the internet. There were a service to allow users to dial up and make a connection. Yes they had their own proprietary area, but they also allowed web access and web based email, usenet messaging etc.

I honestly don't know if they still provide those services, I am aware now that they provide "premium" services for broadband customers. In Canada, I know that AOL Canada doesn't exist, and in its place, Netscape Online exists.

Its not an ISP that I would have ever used to recommended. But that doesn't mean it isn't an ISP in any sense.

James

by apotheon

As far as I'm aware, AOL has qualified as an ISP for most of its tenure. AOL Broadband isn't an ISP, of course: it's just a "value added services" provider, of sorts, layering a bunch of nonsensical cruft on top of a perfectly good broadband connection provided by someone else (RoadRunner, in my area). AOL is still a dialup ISP, though.

Perhaps the problem with use of the term ISP has something to do with the fact that AOL provides Internet aggravation, rather than Internet "service".

Even if one refers to the difficulty of getting out to the Internet from AOL at various times in its existence, it was still an "internet service provider", using "internet" with a little i, at minimum. I guess that might make it an iSP rather than an ISP in some ways, though I'm not aware of any point after the early '90s when you literally could NOT get outside of AOL's proprietary little internet.

by the admiral

Actually, they did not up until 1997, when you had to pay additional per miniute to go to the internet. Then they started loosing ground and opened up their network to IP.

They have a problem with adjusting their proprietary network to work with standard offerings.

by grbeckmeyer

I knew I shouldn't have mentioned that as this would turn into an AOL holy war. Like I said, I'm not fond of AOL myself.

I just started going into my own AOL stories, but erased because that's not my real point. Like them or not, they bring MILLIONS of people into using technology, so for that I am very thankful as there are that many more potential paying customers out there.

The reason I started this is because I'm seeing somewhat similar attitudes in the Linux community. I know it can get old answering what seem like basic questions. I was a total Linux noob not so long ago, so I can sympathize when I see a question from someone that has a very simple answer. But a common response to those is RTFM, usually with an extra dose of rudeness thrown in. Sometimes I can agree, because if it seems simple to me then it can probably be answered with a minimal effort. But I also remember well that it seems like a big jump getting started, and it can be hard to figure out where to go for these simple answers. This attitude is going to turn off people who are trying to get started. That just doesn't seem like a good way to help nurture this community that really needs all the growth it can get.

I think gralfus and jbaker in posts 4 & 5 bring up some excellent points that are in line with my original intent for this thread.

by admin

"If it sounds good it is good"

applied to IT, if it's good for you it is good.

What I set up for end users depends on their needs, not mine. The tools I use probably wouldn't fit many of their needs, but they are good for me.

It's all good, just depends on the needs. AOL is awesome for my mom, as are IE and Dell. Firefox on my Sager with a KDE desktop work for me. Neither one of us would really be happy with the other, or positively, we are both rightfully happy with what makes us happy. :)

It's all good !

:)

by howard holton

The Elitist mentality permeiates every field and walk of life. There will always be people who feel that they are superior to others, all I can say is "good for them" - they are exactly what we do not want in this field, but the best compition in the world becuase as soon as your customer, or user, experiences a little customer service they will never go back.

Also keep in mind that there is a difference between an elitist attitude and a computer person who lacks the communication skills to come across any other way - I know a lot of very nice and extremely knowledgeable it pro's that are difficult to talk to because they do not realize that everyone does not use that vocabulary.

Just my 2c - take it or leave it.

by dr dij

right click and.. (No, RIGHT CLICK)
there is no ANY key.
and having to spell out words for them to type in.

read the computerworld.com sharktank every day and probably nothing worse can happen that day at your place.

I had a user who couldn't login. Went over and watch and she knew her password but typed it real quick and typed something else. repeatedly. real actual disconnect between keyboard and mind.

Remember, there are no stupid questions :)

(only stupid users)

I think the problem is people WANT to think computers are more confusing than they are. can't seem to grasp the 'folder' analogy for files and folders, and folders within folders (directories).

then some think because they know a little they are qualified to do all, like a person who can change their oil thinking they can do more with no training.

what really bugs me are the people who 'are too busy' or 'know it already' for training, then have problems related to not having trained on whatever system. Salespeople sometimes fit into this category.

by dbertsche

I agree with everything you've stated but would add those in the computer field who have a problem communicating should work on this issue just as those who aren't as knowledgeable about computers are trying to learn by asking these individuals, it's a two-way street.

by dr dij

I try to explain in terms they'll understand. a disk drive is a filing cabinet, sub directories are folders in other folders, documents are like pieces of paper in the folder.

Oddly some people still act baffled by it all. "It's a computer so it has to be complicated" they seem to be saying.

by jessie

Are prone to the same "God Complex." Just because someone comes to them for answers, they get a very BIG HEAD thinking that all other mere mortals must bow to their supreme power!

My personal take on this is, all of the respective jobs in a company are required to make the company work (with the possible exception of IT - most people could still get their jobs done if they didn't have a computer). I know absolutely NOTHING about marketing, sales, accounting, manufacturing, and whatever else goes on around here... but I do know computers, so let me fix it.

Without doctors... we'd probably manage to live productive lives anyhow, not as long, and not as healthy, but we'd still be born, many of us would grow up and be productive.
Without IT Pros... so they'd have to use paper and snail mail... most of them think that wouldn't be so bad, and most of THAT feeling is because of Elitist IT Pros who make them feel stupid...

by absolutely

But even Stephen Hawking cannot "make" a person feel stupid. Only stupid luser mistakes can make lusers feel stupid. Notwithstanding Linux poseurs and their conscious effort to be conceited, a lot of the stereotype of the arrogant IT pro really originates with lusers who just "wish" that the computer would be as simple to use as a television.

Maybe a machine designed only for web browsing, email and (rudimentary) word processing can be, but the level of physical and logical complexity necessary for a machine that plays back music and video files, edits photos and all the other "multimedia" and passive entertainment purposes that lusers want their machines to do requires a bit of understanding of the tool itself.

If a lumberjack cuts off his arm because he doesn't care how the chainsaw works, he "just wants to cut down trees!" would you tell the chainsaw mechanic he has a "God Complex", or is a condescending, elitist uber geek?

by jessie

Most of my users know exactly what they need to do, to do the functions required of them in their job. If a lumberjack cuts of his arm because he doesn't know how to turn on his chainsaw properly, go ahead and call him an idiot. But if he cuts off his arm because the chainsaw keeps turning itself off and on, or "locks" up on him, and the mechanic calls him an idiot because he didn't know he needed to remove the small hidden pin that's no where in the documentation... that's elitist.

On my car, I know how to drive it, gas it up, change the oil and tires, check the fluid levels and other low level maintenance stuff. I would HOPE that my mechanic won't treat me like an idiot when something I didn't know to look for FALLS OFF the damn car and kills the motor.

I don't expect users to know anything more about computers than I know about my car. I guess that's where you and I differ. You seem to think they should be able to rebuild their transmissions.

by j.lupo

I have to say this and I know from personal experience that the attitude comes from burnout and being pushed. The IT people want to just get the job done so they can move on to the next 100 issues they need to resolve that day (and that is a light number). Users get bent out of shape because they feel brushed off or that they are being talked down to.

As an IT professional when I need assistance with something, I may want to know more so that I don't have to ask again about the same thing. It is very frustrating when I get brushed off by the person because they are burnt out, overworked, or just having a bad day.

As a general rule, I try to keep a smile on my face and pleasant conversation ready. If I don't have time when I am helping someone out, then I politely tell them so. I have used this technique for a long time and have won users back over to actually "hanging" out with us "elitist geeks".

I am not saying that attitude doesn't exist, but I think it is a combination of poor interpersonal skills and burn out. (for everyone involved). Just my opinion.

by apotheon

If it's your job to help end-users, and you're getting paid to do so, you should darned well help the end users out and not treat them like unsightly blemishes. As long as the end-user is courteous to me, I don't see any reason to not return the regard.

With end-users who are NOT part of my job (for instance, on TechRepublic where any help I offer is out of the kindness of my heart), I often direct people to read manpages, do Google searches, and otherwise learn how to do things the same way I had to. Yes, when my help is being offered for free, I often turn into the scowling unix guru you described, gralfus. I even scowl sometimes, particularly when confronted with some nonsense on TR like "I have to make Linux work on a network. What do I do?" Usually, in response to something entirely aggravating like that (when I'm not getting paid, mind you), the my first response involves a link to ESR's excellent essay "How To Ask Questions The Smart Way". If you want it for yourself, a simple Google search for "how to ask questions" will currently turn that up as the first hit.

When I'm helping someone out for free, I'm usually interested in teaching that someone how to fish rather than just giving him or her a fish that I caught (to mangle a tired old bromide), or interested in finding out whether the person even wants to know how to fish. If he or she can't be arsed to learn anything, and just wants to use me as free tech support without any regard for the fact that I'm doing him or her a favor, he or she can go pound sand.

by tonythetiger

What I would liked to see is different departments "charge" each other for their services. That way when management sees one department extremely high for IT services, they'll want to know why.

by j.lupo

Many of the places I have worked in my career did that. You had to bill for your time against an internal account that was setup by department/project/task. It was interesting how little things disappeared and more planning occured.

by jamesrl

At a a few places I have worked, they have implemented it. What it requires is a lot of overhead - everyone has to track which projects they work on, and someone has to assign a value to the work, and do monthly financials on it.

One place I worked at tried it, and came to the conclusion that the overhead was more than the savings, so scrapped it. The other kept it.

I'd have to say it depends on the setup.

James

by j.lupo

Yes it does. It got so that they set up an account to track the time it took to put our billing in the system. :) I think that for IT projects you have to avoid making it too granular. Then it works. I know that a lot of project managers use software like MS Project to do this against project tasks instead of having people on the project enter it.

by jmgarvin

Ok, so there are some jerks in the Linux community and they seem to be the most vocal, but all in all the community isn't that bad.

Bring up usability at a Linux conference and watch how fast the jerks jump up and down and call you a Microsoft shill.

I think the major problem is that, in general, geeks, don't have the social skills to deal with people. Some of us are bless with enough social sense to not come off a cold jerks that are too far beyond you, but there are those that will really make you wonder if they are human or not.

by apotheon

I'm a HUGE fan of usability optimization. That's concern number two in web development for me (right after "content"). I'm also of the opinion that a reasonably well-configured Linux system benefits from far greater usability for its functionality than a comparably functional Windows system in almost all circumstances.

by jmgarvin

I'm a huge fan too. However, drop by a usenet linux group and see what response you get. If you can't do it at the CLI or with a wonky GUI, then it isn't worth doing :-(

Have you read "The Design of Everyday Things" It is a great book that every Linux developer should read!!

by hockeyist

...are the ones who have passed over to the dark side (sales). They know all of the current buzz words to keep you in awe of them...then it's up to the mainstream tech's to support the scat solutions that are a result of meetings between them and their misinformed clients.
N.B. They are only the "elite" if you think that they deserve that title, otherwise they are just very lonely people.

by apotheon

That has nothing to do with Linux and everything to do with Usenet. Any time you step into newsgroups or IRC, and you start getting flames, you should probably take a moment to realize that you are interacting on a newsgroup or in an IRC channel. I mean, really: what did you expect?

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