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Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

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by dotxen

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Hi Everyone,

My name is Robb and I wrote the topic 'Ageism? Good Idea?'.

I wrote this topic to provoke debate about a very important issue in our industry.

I am 55 years old and many of you will have egg on your faces over that bit of knowledge. I have been in the IT industry for more than 15 years and I am now a sage-like soul who now teaches IT technologies to people who want to work in my industry. One of the questions that they ask me, is "Can I get a job at my age in IT?". Because the majority of my students are military Resettlement folk, they are over 35 (in most cases). I always calm their fears by telling them just how tolerant we IT folk are and how age is a real asset. But, to be truthful, I am not sure that this is correct.

To Test this I made myself 'unemployed' and applied for 100 IT jobs. I wrote out a 'proper' CV/Resume and placed my current photograph on it. I stated my age and my qualifications correctly and I also made sure that any referees I stated would respond. Out of the 100 vacancies that I applied for over a two month period I did not received ANY offers of an interview.

I then changed my age and placed a photo of myself taken when I was 30 years old, on the CV. I sent the CV to around 25 companies (some of the original 100 too!) and have received 12 offers of interview and one direct offer of a job. 3 offers came form three of the original companies that did not respond to my 'truthful' CV.

This was not a scientific piece of research, I know that. But I believe that despite the laws about ageism and so on, in my country (UK) and in the USA, the fact remains that ageism is practiced, if not blatently, then in the minds of many of us.

I was intersted to note the many responses to my original article. May I thank all of those who took the time to respond.

I plan to take this issue further, but right now I have to start to earn a living again.

Does anyone have any vacancies?

Best regards - Happy Trails

Robb

249 replies

by stress junkie

I didn't read your previous post because using the word "ageism" made it seem too high-brow to interest me.

I was restructured out of my previous job when my employer was bought by a larger business. Since then I had not taken any steps to regain employment. Initially I intended to take a bit of a vacation from the stress, responsibility, and long hours of IT support. I mostly wanted to get away from incompetent managers. As the months turned into years I found that I could not ever forsee a time when I could bear to work in the typical corporate structure, due entirely to the problems of working with incompetent managers. ( They make me really angry ) Thankfully I've always lived well "below my means" and I've got a lot of money in the bank.

I knew that I would love to work for myself. I'm sure that I would be the best IT manager that I've ever met as well as the best IT support tech/engineer/whatever that I've ever worked with. Since I have such a high regard for myself I was looking for a business model to give me an advantage in the consulting market place. I recently figured out a niche that I believe is being completely ignored by the big consulting houses and I've started my own business.

My business plans include growing my business to the point that I will employ IT support engineers in about two years. I've already decided that I will strongly favor people who are over 40 years old when I am looking for employees. ( I am 47 years old. ) I recognise that increased age does not guarantee emotional maturity or a sense of responsibility but I believe that these qualities will be easier to find among mature employees rather than the propeller headed twenty year olds.

Unfortunately for you I do not expect to be hiring for about two years and I live in the United States.

I think that you are correct in thinking that most businesses favor young, inexperienced, and potentially irresponsible employees over older candidates. I think that there are lot of reasons for this. There is no question in my mind that our culture is based on valuing youth. Young people starting out in their career cannot demand the higher wages that an experienced older person can reasonably expect. Young people are generally more healthy than older people so business paid health insurance premiums may be lower for businesses with generally younger employees.

In my opinion the ONLY things that matter regarding employees are quality of workmanship and a deep seated sense of responsibility. I believe that most business school curricula would say that these are not bottom line assets and that a business will save money by sacrificing experience and quality in favor of youth.

Perhaps in twenty years the name "stress junkie" will be revered as the founding father of a new business paradigm placing quality ahead of everything else and of favoring experience and maturity as the characteristics that are most desireable in employment candidates.

by dotxen

Thank you so much for your excellent and thoughtful response. I do aplogise for the 'high-brow' title of my earlier topic.

You are quite right in what you say, and it behoves us all to take note.

However, I am not anti-youth (neither are you, obviously) but I am annoyed and irritated by recruitment companies and there inept attitude toward useful folk of my age.

I hope that many people from recruitment companies will have read our input and learned from it, and stop salivating over twenty-somethings with university degrees (a useless qualification in network systems support, in my view) and start to recruit, or at least give opportunities to the more mature and experienced amongst us.

Thanks

Robb

by stress junkie

I was once twenty-something and I was very reponsible back then so you're right, I'm not completely prejudiced against younger people.

At this point I've just read your "ageism" post. It's pretty funny. I got a few chuckles from reading it.

by hal 9000

Recruitment agencies are all about passing meat through the mill not the quality of the product {in their case workers} but the numbers as they get paid to push the sausage machine harder or they don't have a job within a very short time.

So they tend to ignore the older workers as they themselves are young know it all sales-people so they quite naturally think that someone their own age or younger is the easiest work which they are so they place the older workers at the bottom of the heap as it will take them far too long to deal with and then proceed to concentrate on those that they can move quickly and hopefully without any work other than sending them to a place and then hopefully never see them again and get paid for their services.

These people are not the slightest bit interested in fitting work places to people or the other way around as most of them are incapable of understanding the nature of the work in IT and they certainly do not understand the lingo so they just go with the bare minimum experience asked for and then offer nothing else. Most of these recruiters actually think that M$ are responsible for Personal Computers and have absolutely no idea what a mainframe is or anything other than Windows as an OS. Actually come to think about it they most likely do not even know that anyone other than Microsoft actually exists as that would be all that they see on their workstations.

Here in AU things are a bit easier as we just lack the population that we require so the older people are being encouraged to keep working particularly the trades people as we do not have anywhere near enough of them. Currently several places are offering $100.00 AU just to attend an interview and any traveling expenses. If you come from a different area they will also pay your moving costs and set you up in a house just to get you to work for them.

Because we have not trained anywhere enough people recently companies are crying out for experienced trade people and are now importing them in from the Philippines and Indonesia on 3 year work permits. The problem is projected to reach a peek in 2015 when there just might be some people available to fill some of the vacancies that are currently available and about another 20 years to be self sufficient in workers for these places. These are not the unskilled jobs but the highly skilled ones where companies are offering $300.00 AU per week above award just in an attempt to attract workers.

One place that I recently went to had a car on the dock and every day that you showed up for work you where given a raffle ticket in the car which was drawn monthly and this was only to encourage their workers to actually attend work even though they are paying well above award wages to any new comers.

Col ]:)

by hal 9000

While you may find that you are the only manager/tech that you can work with happily you are also your own hardest critic so you end up working harder and longer than you ever really need to just to stay happy with your level of work.

Then you do not take holidays or sick leave as you can not justify the lost time and you become your own worst enemy. My boss is exactly the same and I would do anything possible to get away from him that is part of the reason I'm not allowed sharp implements as cutting my wrists just to kill my boss is unacceptable. :D

Col ]:)

by stress junkie

I spent 15 years in contract work, which has some similarities to being completely independent. You're right about being hard on myself.

The good news is that, unlike many people who start a business, I would not be draconian to people that I hire. I'm very oriented to humane business practices. I think that if you get the right people then you don't have to be an ogre. Hopefully when the time comes I will be able to create a great work environment where people will enjoy making a living.

by sleepin'dawg

to become financially independent. Fix in your mind the idea that you don't work for any company, you work at that company. You don't work for anybody, you work with them. Once that idea is fixed in your mind and YOU BELIEVE IT, you'll be positioned to set out on the road to financial independence. Who knows, along the way you could become a millionaire but first you must be independent. Remember you don't work for any company; you work for yourself and you're only at that company for the pay check. Companies have little or no loyalty or gratitude to their employees so why are you loyal and grateful to them. Think of yourself as offering them goods and services in exchange for which they offer you a pay check. There is no earthly reason why you should be 'selling' your wares to one company exclusively. It's a short step from there to being your own boss and then, if you're going to be successful, you'll find you're working for the toughest SOB you've ever worked for. That's when the 18-20 hour days 7/24 start but they'll be fun days because they'll be your own days and you'll be building something for yourself and your loved ones, not someone else.

Dawg ]:)

by hal 9000

I think I'm only here as a Scape Goat for the people that I employ and now I'm working harder than ever to keep them employed as to me at least my staff are important and I need a constant stream of work to keep them employed. ;)

What was supposed to be easy work and a stress free life has gone exactly the opposite way and now it is worse than ever and the worst thing of all is that I only had about 12 hours of what I wanted before I had a complete workforce along with customers.

I could really murder that SOB who came up with the idea that I would be better off working for myself if only I knew then what I know now I'd have stayed where I was after all it was only 18 hour days and I got every second Sunday off now I'm lucky if I'm not dreaming about computer problems on the few chances when I can get some sleep. :D

Col ]:)

by quashie

I applaud your efforts and wish you much success with your business. I cannot think of any valid reasons for age bias. In our area, health insurance rates are "community rated." So, the rates for our business are not dependant on the age of our workers. Moreover, I have seen older workers (even those with serious illnesses) take off far less time from work than younger workers who think nothing of missing work for the flimsiest of reasons.

What really matters is the individual's attitude toward learning and staying current in the field. Again, I have seen younger workers who think they are God's gift to mankind because they have a network certification or an associates degree and I have seen older workers who feel the need to go back to school for advanced degrees in IT or IS.

An astute manager will know what to look for on a resume and what questions to ask on an interview to find the right candidate. He or she does not have to rely on age as the primary criteria to find a good hire. Unfortunately, this world is filled with hacks who take the easy way out all the time. After all, nobody ever got fired for hiring a recent grad with a good GPA.

by crazeycelt

I Grad in 97 with a 3.085 GPA, Neeedless to say I am now back in school for my certifications, a BS in computer sicence along with a AD in info Tech, did not help. I went back to school after 20+ yeas in the US Army. Like staed in the original post I have drawers of letters stateing, We have no postions at tis time for anyone of your education and experiance. I am 55 now and couldnt agree more with the bias as stated.

by johnnywatt

This post is boring.
I will give you one dollar to solve this riddle.

Three men checked into a hotel room for which they paid $30. The next day, the manager realized that the men had been overcharged. She gave the bellhop $5 to return to the three men. On the way to their room the bellhop decided to keep $2 for himself, and give each of the three men one dollar. The three men had now paid $9 each, or a total of $27. This plus the $2 the bellhop kept makes a total of $29. What happened to the other dollar?

by doctordisk

The question you pose is nonsense.
Initial payment was $30.
Manager pays back $5 and keeps $25.
Bellhop pockets $2 and gives each of 3 men $1.
The 3 men therefore between them paid a total of $27.
Money received by manager is $27 MINUS the $2 pocketed by the bellhop.
The missing dollar is only in the head of johnnywat who posed this badly structured math problem.

by hal 9000

Try looking up http://xe.com/ currently I believe that $1.00 AU buys about 77 cents US so it will work out a little better than $5.42 US more like $5.96 US. :D

Really it works out to something like 77.2005 USD
which if I remember correctly is almost enough to leave as a tip at a Mac Donald's for your cheese burger naturally it would have to be more if you ordered a Big Mac. :p

Col ]:)

by wordworker

I have never believed in attaching a photo with a resume. I assume that employers want to low-ball salary for new hires and they figure that 30-somethings will take less money than 40- or 50-somethings, who have presumably earned and are accustomed to receiving a good salary. So at the end of that proverbial day, it's about the money, not the quantity or quality of experience.

I suggest everyone (not just in IT) only go back 10 years on a resume, and leave off dates of graduation or certification. The resume is just to get the interview, not tell your whole work-life story.

by sleepin'dawg

To the slaves, "Today I have good news and bad news."
Slaves: "What is the good news, O benevolent one?"
The benevolent one: "I thought we should take a short easy cruise to a pleasant island where the sun shines and relaxation is possible."
Slaves: "That is indeed good news O benevolent one."
From some smart ass in the back:"What's the bad news???"
The benevolent one:"I thought I'd enjoy a spot of water skiing on the way."

Dawg ]:)

by willcomp

Robb,

Hope that you enjoyed my response to your "ageism" post. Basically reinforced your premise that older folks are technically competent.

However, age discrimination is not confined to IT. It is endemic to industry as a whole, at least here in the US. The first employees downsized are those over 40 and it seem that the only job for anyone over 50 is a greeter at Wal-Mart.

Dalton

by dotxen

I did enjoy your response and thanks for that.

I say Amen to your observations.

The thing that strikes me as sad is not that it happens, but that we make light of it and nothing gets changed.

I am not a sad old git, just a little morose that many of my contempories are just not being valued for nothing more than extra years. That cannot be right and MUST be changed.

The IT industry is no different to any other in this respect. But that is no reason to tolerate bad behaviour on the part of the recruitment agencies, the government and employers. Unless we make a bloody noise, we will all end up unemployed and poor as we pass 45 ish. Our skills will not get passed on and our industry will be all the poorer for it.

Happy trails

Robb

by willcomp

The only good thing is that those young folks taking over will soon have to ante up substantially to cover us baby boomers' social security and medicare costs (or whatever similar programs exist in the U.K.)

I'll be elgible for Social Security in about 4 more years. Revenge is sweet!

Been good threads and some good observations. Really enjoyed the topic since it's "close to home."

Excellent job Robb.

Dalton

by jkaras

It appalls me at your finds, as well as it doesnt suprise me at the same time. There are many forms of prejudice that are engaged in today's world that cant be controlled,race, orgin, past experiences, etc. I am new to the field with a limited amount of experience getting turned down because more experienced workers who tout major experience are out of work taking jobs that they are over qualified for. They are taking jobs because they need the employment taking a huge paycut. The employers are gambling on they will stay, vs investing knowledge in an inexperienced person that will just leave within a two year time frame. The truth is the minute these skilled professionals can find something more in their target pay they leave and the employer is forced to start over again. Some jobs that I have applied for get filled and then reposted two months later. Our vocation as well as other vocations are quite volitile today. Employers to me lately are expecting massive loyalty, huge credentials when they are hiring for far less, non reciprocating employment (training/experience, and laying people off for cheaper labor. Any negativity presented in an interview when explaining why you left a place that couldnt meet your expectations in growth or financial stabilty is frowned upon. I just dont understand the job market these days.

by bhunsinger

That they want to hire youth. Cheaper, more recently educated etc. I once sent to a boot camp and my roomate was a guy who belonged to the Hair club fo rmen. When he went on an interview before that, he didn't get called back. With it: three seconds in a row.
On the other hand, job ads are usually placed after the networking fails- thats were older people have the advantage.

by dotxen

It is a sad reflection that our industry, one of the richest and one of the most important, with some of the richest and largest corporations in the world, does stoop to prejudice to get the last penny form their staff.

Microsoft was created by a bunch of young kids/geeks. That same company operates an unofficial ageist policy. Here in the UK microsoft has a major centre in Reading on the M4 corridor, where most of the biggest IT companies are located, Oracle, Lucent and so on. To get a job at Microsoft you have to be under 35. They wil argue and wriggle, but it's a fact. If you checked out the average age at MS, you will find it's around 32. Whatever happened to thjose young guys who created Microsoft? They just got old.

by dr dij

Why in the world did you put your age on a resume? It isn't even legal in US for them to ask you your age I believe, even in a face to face interview.

And your picture? Never seen a resume with someone's picture on it. (OK, I don't hire people but still haven't heard of it).

Maybe you weren't hired as they thought you were stupid for putting info you weren't supposed on the resume.

by dr dij

Why did he even send a resume with a picture?
I think he's getting 'hard of thinking' to do that.

by dotxen

In the UK you have to state your age. Most recruitment companies make it a required field on their web site registration forms. It is always required by an employer prior to interveiw.

I could be rejected on the spot for misleading an employer if I mistated or didn't put my age and then turned up to an interview. The question that the employer or recruitment agency would ask is, "Why didn't you state your age? That behaviour is not inclined to help you get the job. If you lie about that, what else are you keeping back from us?" That, my friend is the problemo.

by luckyleatherneck

Yep. Fortunately, in the USA, employers have gone through enough litigation over hiring practices that very little of those "personal" statistics are allowed on employment forms -- by the employers own legal advisers. There's a huge consulting industry here with regard to hiring practices, employment forms, and personnel department procedures.
Heck, before I got back into computers, and after active duty in the Corps, I must've filled our 50 employment apps that got so personal as to ask not only what branch of service I served and how long but what service schools attended and what I learned. Since I was point man for a Raid company with 1st Bn 9th Marines in Vietnam and other exotic places, I really didn't have schooling nor experience in military computers, trucks, diesel equipment, radio & electronics. I wasn't getting any hits on the apps I turned in so I re-applied at the company I left years before as a computer operator. This time when I got to the military experience part asking what did I learn, my restraint slackened a bit and I put down; "I learned to kill a man in less than six seconds." Their VP of Data Processing made the final decision to hire me back (without an interview) commenting; "Maybe he can get some things accomplished down there."
Semper Fi.

by rapell

so you ask them back if they'd have shortlisted you, if you had stated your real age!! experimento conitnueum

by black panther

It's pretty easy to work it out when you read the employment history and then if they did miss that and get an interview they would probably prejudice against him once they saw his age.

In Australia it's the same - I have seen it done with my own eyes how the Employer looks at the age ( if it shows ) and puts everyone over 40 in a separate pile or the trash.

If the age is not on then they look through the work history and the smarter ones soon work it out maybe saving time for both Employer and Employee.

sad but true

by why me worry?

You can't just lump all of your work experience onto a resume without showing the dates that you worked at those companies. It will look suspicious and make the new employer think that you jump ship quite too often and will raise many red flags. Then again, if you have a college degree, do you not state when you attained that degree? I think it will create more of a question than if you do state relevant dates, but it is illegal for them to explicitly ask your age and marital status unless they have hired you and you are filling out W-4 forms.

by luckyleatherneck

I tell everyone that age and birth date have no place on a Resume and to limit their experience history to 20 or 10 years. If the hiring people don't guess the age right away from the experience, then the IT Manager examining the details for competency surely will.
Of course, I also tell them to leave the walker at home.

by jkaras

Every application I have ever filled out wether on paper or on the web had date of birth as mandatory information for employment. It's there to qualify employment under labor laws that you dont misrepresent your age and work under a liability, like too young to be employed, operation of dangerous equipment, or physical limitations. You could omit it but I doubt you will get a call back. AS for the picture it was a progressive idea back five years ago. The strategy was to place a name with face amidst thousands of other resumes. It was a easy trick to be more noticed. Also studies have shown that attractive people with less credentials tend to get hired better than less attractive people with more credentials. Curious what type of doctor are you?

by dr dij

I still don't get this defeatist cr*p attitude.

You usually don't fill out an application till you've got an interview, at which point they're likely to be interested in your experience and job skills, and have seen you anyway.

by is girl

I have to agree that a resume with a pic might be discarded by HR because it's so out of the ordinary - unless you are looking for a job in television or such.

And,putting references to your age anywhere on your resume is unwise because you may play into biases against age regardless of if you are too young or too old. After all, what is the perfect age for an IT employee?

As a hiring manager, I can say that I am excited when a mature candidate shows up for an interview because they will most assuredly make more responsible employees than their 20 something counterparts.

The biggest strike against IT workers in their 40s and 50s is the money. They are more suited for managment level positions because of the salaries they command.

by hal 9000

Is they don't want management positions because they like to get their hands dirty with their work because if you are not doing it most of the day you do get left behind as the technology races on. :)

Col ]:)

by dotxen

Great reply. Totally agree.

Here in the UK we have a massive intake of overseas workers. Many are very very good, such as our Indian friends, but with so many incoming, there are a lot of useless eco-tourists. I can't mention the nationalities or I may get arrested.

Getting back to the point.... I am annoyed that recruitment agencies are not being fair to older, senior, mature, whatever, IT people. The loss to our economy must be in the millions a day in terms of having to train less experienced people amd covering the mistakes that younger folk make, through no real fault other than their inexperience and the lack skill to learn from mistakes.

Our's is an aging nation, more so than the USA and Oz. So we are not in a position to continue this mindless prejudice.

Robb

by docbrown

Thanks, Robb. Like many others, I also replied to your 'Ageism' topic, in a rather cynical manner. The real truth on hiring practices in the USA ( and apparently, in the UK) belies the regulations and guidelines that should prevent such discrimination.

It's ironic to me that in my life, I went into IT/IS in the early 70's because my department at ITT was laid off and replaced by an IBM System 370 FixIT computer! I could take losing my job to automation, but losing an automation job to prejudice? I really believed that the change in professions was a good one, but honestly, it wouldn't matter if you were making doughnuts; the mindset of age discrimination would still be there. What worries me too is that my current status as a disabled veteran acts as a 'double-edged sword of denial' when applying for a job.

I think you're on to something that needs to be addressed by the IT industry. The fictitious character in the 'ageism' scenario is more reality than fiction. Perhaps you can publish your findings, no matter how unscientific the results appear to be. If I were in a position, I'd hire you in a second.

PS..Have you ever thought aboput revealing your findings to the organizations that denied you a position?

by hdrconsultant

Hello everyone:

I am new to this forum and pleased to find one related to IT that is not full blown egos.

I think there is another irony to all of this. I believe that Ageism is a reality and whether we like it or not we have to face it. I am a middle aged man, is 50 middle aged? I guess it is if I live to be 100.

Companies do hire the younger applicants for a number of reasons but what ever those reasons are the other irony is that they spend a lot of money engaging with season veteran consultants to instruct, assess or oversee their operations.

This time the table turns because they discriminate against the younger consultant that does not have the experience they require. I have experience this. Last year I was invited to bid on a Disaster Recovery Planning project for a large healthcare provider and out 10 consultants I was the oldest, I meant the senior. All the younger resources where overlooked because they lacked the business and technical experience or the frequent flyer mileage I presented. In most cases you wind up making in two to three months what you probably would make in six months pending on your hourly or fixed rate.

My point is that older IT resources seeking employment may have an opportunity to do something different and at the same time work in the environment you are experienced in. We have to turn a negative in to a positive and maybe consider that at this point of our lives we are at a higher level than those required to fill a position at an IT department.

Maybe we sould all get together and create this huge global consulting firm and employ each other.

Good to be hear.

by dr dij

I'm not saying people don't age discriminate, but you went about it wrong. It was kind of like adding to the bottom of your resume, "while I'm the perfect employee technically, etc, I can't help being a 450 pound slob who eats at my desk and has body odor and is out alot due to health problems."

It may be what you are but you're sticking info you don't want them to decide on in before they need to know it. If it is really unimportant in your case (you're not going senile, and can still do the job fine) then you should have left it out.

You should have NOT put age or grad dates on resume, and only last 5-10 years employement, which is typical here.

It would be more realistic if you compared job offers after interviews and filled out applications, at which point you might have needed to put such personal info in writing for the potential employer. Tho I don't know how you could make a young version of yourself as the control.

by tony hopkinson

To put Date of Birth on your cv. There's no specific law against ageism as far as I'm aware. Would be a waste of time anyway, all they have to do is say wouldn't have fitted in the team. I should point out that business's are far more enlightened than the pimps in general. I started a new job today at the advanced age of 42, took me a while to find it though.
Avoid up to five years experience and salary ranges > 10k. You are wasting your time with those

by dotxen

Good news mate. Here in the UK we do have an ageist attitude. But, there are those that try to overcome it. The 'pimps', well they have top look to their turnover and profit margins. However, I shouldn't be too harsh, as many people of senior years do have good experiences with recruitment agencies. The difficulty is that they are in such a minority.

This problem is not going to go away. As we, in the UK, get older, and with a low birth rate, the sooner we get wise to the fact that it's experience that counts and not certificates, the better.

Having said that, the best scenario is a healthy mix of all ages and both sexes.

Good luck in your new job.

Robb

by hal 9000

Where you describe you position in the business as Alleged Boss and Official Scape Goat you've hit the mark.

Right at the moment I have 10 techs working for me and one office manager just to keep the books in order and arrange work schedules for the guys. I've actually had to fire a couple of these women as they tend to allow the little power that they have go to their heads and start bossing the guys around which is unacceptable to me anyway. ;)

The one I have now sought of works out OK but she doesn't like sending me out on jobs as I continually undercharge on things where the customer have been ripped off previously so I consider this more of a "Good Will" thing and only charge minimal costs to fix up the messes rather than our standard hourly rate. Drives her nuts and she goes mad at the time when I hand her the time sheets to invoice out but at least she knows better than to jump on the guys who do exactly the same thing after ringing me just to see if what they are doing is OK with me. I'm pretty flexible on things like this and whenever we do this the person in question has a customer for life as that customer only wants the original tech to come out again even though by now we are charging the correct prices.

But what I do find stressful now is the way that my staff steal my Classic Mercedes to drive around in rather than the cars that I provide them with. They all seem to think that these are company property and not just my play toys of course as I drive one of them all the time it's a bit hard but when one approached my wife and tells her that he's taking her car and has OKed it with me and I know nothing at all about it I know that they are using me.

One actually was involved in a collision where one of my Mercs was a complete loss as a truck ran a red light and collected him right on the drivers door the only good thing about it was if he had of been in the new car most likely he would have died rather than only suffering minor injuries that he did {well at least until he got out of hospital then he got really hurt :D} I made him write me a new engine management program in Boolean for a 64 K EPROM that was used in the EFI system of the car. Of course I didn't help him one little bit or even give him a starting program to work from he had to do it all from scratch and then he wasn't allowed out until he had proved himself responsible, it didn't matter about his protests of being the innocent victim which he was he shouldn't have taken that car which I had just finished restoring and hadn't even had a chance to drive it anywhere. :(

We do at least have a hell of a lot of fun and that really is all that matters in the end as happy people are productive but the BASTARDS Still Steal My Cars! :D

Col ]:)

by gojints

I just left a blistering (for me) reply to your original post - my apologies.

To answer your question, yes you can. You just applied to stupid companies. As I just replied in your other post, my company just hired someone I believe is around your age (we can't ask you know) as a developer. She's out doing guys half her age who 'know everything'. You just have to find the right company.

I'm 'older' for the company as well. My 50th is next month. I am the office manager, MS Office expert, just got my MOS for Word Expert and am heading for MOS Office Expert before November. Any questions on Word, Excel and PowerPoint are logged to me in our help desk.

It sounds like the HR departments need some help in remembering there is an age discrimination law on the books - even if the current administration would probably like to repeal it.

Keep going - and good luck

by dr dij

You should put last 5-10 years, NO MORE on any resume. Unless it is specifically to impress them, such as '20 years in a security administrator'. Once you have an interview and would like an employment app filled out, you can put earlier jobs, tho few will ask more than that.

If you did lots of interesting things before that, put a summary of them in an experiences or capabilities paragraph.

You can put education but no reason to list the dates. You just put how many years you attended, and if you got a degree. There really is no point to putting the date on there.

Sure they might find out anyway but if you do it this way, they look at your qualifications more immediately. If they want to find out your age they'll have to call you in for an interview.

by black panther

once they see you they discriminate against you ( directly after the interview ) and most likely you have wasted your and their time!!

I have seen it happen a lot unfortunately!!

Then the next time they look at CV's the ones without any age mentioned are left out!

by hal 9000

That you at the very least have mislead them by omission and if you are willing to do that what else are you willing to do that is not in their best interests?

Besides killing it for yourself you are hurting others as well.

Col ]:)

by dr dij

They wouldn't ask for an interview unless they were impressed with resume or phone call.

Sure they could discriminate later but at that point they're less likely to dismiss you out of hand.

It's a defeatist attitude to assume you're going to lose because you're older, probably self-fulfilling prophecy to some degree.

by rapell

sounds funny but its a fact. and it gets worse if ethnicity comes in....they'ld rather employ a 55 yr old white man than a 45 yr old black man, or the other way round depending on who's cooking the soup.

by k.h.

I've worked with people of all ages in IT. In the past, I had to "carry" someone who refused to learn anything new, both who were over 40 and who were younger than 22. The one over 40 was stuck in the novell 3.11 days and refused to move on by 1997. It was their choice but truly sad. When they had to do admin duties, they would quietly call me and ask me to go show them how to take care of the server, etc. After declining training on Novell 4 and 4.11, they were nicely "moved" to another department doing basic support on legacy systems. The one younger than 22 had zip experience, just textbook knowledge. It was so frustrating having to "carry" them as well. But the difference was they were arrogant enough to back talk and didn't want to to learn, they wanted to play Doom and other computer games on the company network. It was sad, but we all have a choice to learn something new and keep up with changing technology, regardless of our age. Being in the IT field is interesting and dynamic in nature.
I've worked with people over 40 who were the perfect mentor - new a lot more than I did and also had the experience to back it up. I've also worked with people under 20 who were sharp and quick to learn - would eventually know a lot more than I would by the time they reached their 30s.
What matters more is their intellect, not their age, in my opinion.

by gpmcdonald

Try applying for work in the educational sector. I changed careers by going back to school at age 46 and began working for the college that granted my degree at age 50. After two years I moved across the country and used that experience and recent degree to get hired on at a major university. Unlike the commercial sector it seems colleges and universities dont care as much about age, only ability.

by av .

Its true, there is ageism and I am glad you posted the topic because it is a huge problem in our field and getting bigger by the day. I'm not sure I like being deceived with your previous post, but ok, I'll go with the flow.

I think you have to look for the right company if you are older. Corporate America has a younger culture unless you are in management. If you want tech support there, forget it, its a longshot. They want young.

Smaller companies offer more opportunity for the older worker or working in education or non-profit. Be prepared to accept less money.

Honestly, its a real kick in the pants. They don't teach this in school - after 20 or 30 years of loyal service, you are parked on the bench or eliminated because you are older even if you are qualified. I never thought I would encounter ageism. I thought I could retire in this field with no problem. I never took into account globalization or high health care costs for older people.

I'm old enough to remember when people used to retire with honors from a company. Why can't we have that today? Why isn't that important anymore? You have to give alot of yourself to work in IT. It requires alot of dedication if you do it right. Its such an unhappy ending for people that gave so much.

I hope, Robb, that you will publish the results of your post somewhere good. There's alot of us wrinkly's out there that are absolutely fabulous. We're all driving sports cars too. We can walk and talk and we know the ropes.

by jkaras

American Airlines!!! Holy cow, imagine that was you who put in double digit years of service and loyaly banking on the pension only to have it taken away, that promise of long term stability taken away because some big wigs made bad choices? If this goes through it could cripple America that every corporation can run itself into the ground, declare chapter 11, get rid of excess baggage and then make an upword climb back into the fight leading the market. The only obsticle is backstabbing the people that made your company successful in the first place. Nice pr. Our economy is in for some hard times, my friend.

by av .

Its not there, its just a big lie. I think a judge approved United Airline's request to be taken over by the federal government yesterday. The workers will all have reduced benefits as a result. The senior executives are not feeling the pain, I'm sure.

A company like United or American can just write that debt off or shift responsibility and then start fresh. Seems to me that the airlines are always in bankruptcy. But - you and I can't declare bankruptcy anymore and "start fresh." We have to pay off our creditors. Hmm - maybe I should incorporate myself . . .

The bottom line is there is nothing thats guaranteed anymore even if its supposed to be. If you think you have Social Security, consider how you could retire if you only had half of what they say you get. Your 401k if you have one. How reliable is that really?

Our economy is in major trouble, its downright scary. It is going to be a real challenge to even be able to retire. I think it will probably be a working retirement for me and alot of other people. I'd rather keep working, though probably part-time, because I'm afraid that one day my nest egg won't be enough and I'll have work.

Welcome to the new retirement for the common man. Only the top executives don't feel the pain. Not fair. The captain should go down with the ship.

by dr dij

Hey, I know this from Star Trek.

And like I said all you did was present them with more pertinent info, your experiences and job history. If they call you in they're already interested in those qualities.

Now you're sounding like a defeatist too. Don't think you're eggs are broken before you step on them [sic] ?

by martimus

Now this is a quite interesting application of your test. EVERY journal I've ever read on resume building and interviewing techniques seems to agree that its a really BAD idea to make direct reference to your age. Hmm... maybe you purposely set yourself up for failure in your first go-around.

In a marketplace where (outside of India) there are NOT more IT jobs than qualified workers maybe its a bad idea to try to impress recruiters with information inappropriate for a resume?

by kevaburg

Ok I admit it! I am one of those people with egg on my face! Having just submitted my comments to your earlier post I thought you were a young sprite with the wrong attitude! For that I apologise and I retract my insults!!! (Ouch!)

BUT, I do stand by the experience related side of my comment. I think that nowadays, the youth tend to move jobs reasonably regularly say for example, every two or three years. But because they are young they can find more work.

The older we get the more carefully we need to think about job moves and career transitions and that could be the answer to the questions posed by your resettlement students.

You sound like a Brit and if so, you might understand what I mean by the experience issues that arose during "Options" in the 90's. IT has become too much a part of everyday life and for almost every business, a mission-critical asset to allow that sort of mistake to be made again.

by jkaras

Uh most employers require first an application to be filled out then accompanied by a resume (or a refusal for one(resume) till the application process has been completed and interview given) when responding to a job posting. If you are referring to blanket mailing of resumes to every place of business that hasnt posted a job opening that you are directly applying for, then the application isnt in the equation. When you show up for the interview they make you fill out the application prior to your interview. Almost all companies nowadays use online applications for employment protocol. They like to use this method to ensure equal opprotunity employment liability as well as a easier method to sort through the amount of applications accepted daily. They can specify certain profeciencies to be picked up in their filters, then start the process of checking the alleged credentials. All applications have a date of birth. It helps prove your existence not false aliases.

How exactly was my previous post defeatist? It was a statement of fact with an explination of why a photo is included if someone decides to in the attempt to increase their chances by doing so. The studies have been proven time and time again that attractive people have an advantage in interviews, life, or what have you. A good looking person with X amount of credentials dressed to impress and another person who is over weight with less hair wearing the same exact suit with the same exact credentials who answered the questions exactly the same applies. The result; the better looking person gets the job a large majority of the time why? Because we equate interest in what we find attractive, we buy into the packaging, not the quality. That is life, that is the truth, its not defeatist. If what I said was false then why do we have to get dressed up for a job? We wont wear those clothes everyday to work or put on a display like that, its called selling yourself. Being deafist is saying I cant so I just quit. Nowhere in my post did I say that. I also asked you for your credentials to your self appointed title of Dr. apparently you failed to back your title as it looks only like an alias. I'll change mine too, I think I will use the title of President! Now bow before me and kiss my pinky ring, lol. Just kidding dude.

by hal 9000

Be better for that alias? :D

I for one actually hate the title DR as it gives people the wrong impression that you are involved in medicine and I've found that those who are impressed with a bunch of letters after your name aren't worth impressing in the first place and those that actually understand what they mean think of you as being pretentious on job applications at least. ;)

The only time I've ever used all of those silly letters after my name is on Legal Reports that are quite likely to end up in Court Action otherwise I just prefer to forget them all together. :p

Col ]:)

by dr dij

I guess I don't remember filling out an app first. You're right, my GF found apps online to fill out. But mostly she emailed resume. I think companies realize much of the time that people DONT WANT to fill out apps before the call back stage, waste of time as they're mostly thrown out.

The photo thing is odd tho. I didn't realize ANYONE sent photos with apps. I consider myself good looking but never would send photo with app.

Also that was part of my point, I've filled out apps when show up at interview but this guy was saying the employer had his age, etc before interview.

Perhaps because it was thru an agency, and while I hadn't put my age down, and purposely left off grad dates, and only last 10 years of employ, they did have the agency info ahead of time.

by mckendrick

I posted a response to "Ageism..." and I stand behind what I wrote. However it turns out reality already has kicked you in the teeth so to speak (see my other post). I waded through many posts (at last count there were over 250) before throwing in my two cents in an admitted effort to reinforce what it seemed EVERYONE else was saying in response to your post. I'm not bothered that you "posed" as someone you're not. I am, however bothered by two other things:

1.) that I shot off at the mouth before doing more homework even if I didn't say anything I don't truly believe

2.) and most important: That the results of your "experiment" were as you describe.

I agree with most everyone who posted under you; knowledge and ability (to waaay oversimplify) should determine the viability of an applicant as a prospect. I do the hiring for my department and I was taught a long time ago that "You can train a skill, not an attitude." It does not speak well for society in the UK (and likely here in the US) that HR departments have forgotten this.

The fact that so many of the posts under "Ageism..." were to chastise you is heartening in part. However, one of the posters pointed out that he wished you had taken a different tack in your initial effort to provoke debate. Perhaps he/she has a point. The tone of your post was that of an arrogant, young, closed-minded tech; perhaps there are more people out there who would have agreed with your stated ideals were your post less polarizing. What I mean to say is, some may agree, but may not want to agree with someone who sounds so overboard.

Best of luck to you in whatever comes along next...

by davidsmo

I've been working in IT since before it was called IS (that's not a typo) and on computers since before there was an IS. That's about (takes off shoes - "3; borrow the 1; carry the 6") 25 years now. The last 19 or so of that has been on unix and the last 10 has been as an admin/consultant. Age and experience work to my advantage ... not hinderance. I, like most everyone here probably, have been baptised by fire so many times that it's like taking a dip in the pool ... now. There's something very reassuring to your boss and those around you when you display (with quiet confidence, passing off stress with a sweep of the fingers across the keyboard) the ability to calmly, effectively and accurately resolve an issue - be it programming, administrative or anything else. When you can sit there and give them a definitive, concise procedure for the layout, design and implementation of something everyone else has been struggling with because of some problem. It's all age, knowledge and experience that does that. You understand what Will Sonnet (Walter Brennan) meant when he said, "No brag, just fact."

by ed

I have been applying for a systems admin. job in an Arizona county IT dept. in the place I wanted to retire to. the same position has been open 8 times over the last 5 years. They get a young know-it-all every time. I am not sure why they keep losing their young know-it-alls but I average working about 12 years per job I get. I begin to wonder what it's costing them to fill and refill the position. I am a tad over qualified for the position but wanted to finish my last 15 working years and not have to move to retire.

by clivey9999

I must admit, I had egg all over my shirt ;-).
My initial reaction was... well not appropriate for a public facing log. Good on you for starting it and testing it - and logging it! I.T. is ALL about experience - even if the OSes have changed. Good luck sir in whatever you decide to do.

by nickinsd2004

My reply to your "Ageism" post was based on the statements you made in your post.

You have proven a valid point in your post above.

I was hired into my current position in IT support at the tender age of 56. ...but I can pass for 55.

Best wishes for the future!

by hal 9000

Also I've seen CV thrown into the waste basket just because they lacked a birth date but that is the LAW here and it may be different in other places. :)

Sorry for sounding defeatist I had a bad day yesterday where nothing that I touched worked the way it should have. I couldn't even get a new out of the box router to work the Bloody thing was broken and I only drove 50 KMS to get there. Good thing that I didn't supply the thing but I also didn't think to take another one along with me just in case so I had a trip back to base to pick one up and then back there again to setup their gateway and in a few days I'll be going back there just to install the new one that has been sent out to them by their ISP and taking mine home again. :D

It's days like yesterday that make the good days feel so great but I just wish they where not with a new customer on the first visit. :(

Col ]:)

by ebenezet

I have been out of work for 3.5 hrs but I have a small computer company now fixing, upgrading and networking pc's....I think it is pathetic the attitiude some folks have about older folks...I am 58, worked for IBM for 18 1/2 yrs in past....I keep up with the latest trends but no one will hire me...Guess I am supposed to crawl into a hole and die...WELL I WONT....so sorry to those out there that would love it....I also teach computer to young folks and older folks....

by hal72940

Let me see if I can remember back that far. I built my first computer in 1974 from articles in Popular Electronics magazine. I have written software in most programming languages and have led crisis management teams on projects that would make your hair turn white. Microsoft wasn't even an idea when I started and Bill Gates was still trying to figure out how to get a date.

Now, 30 years later I am semi-retired and get calls from IT "whiz-kids" because they have no idea why the software upgrade isn't working or how to read a program written in COBOL.

There us an old saying that "Youth is wasted on the young." That seems more appropriate today than at any other time is last 50 years.

I just hope that todays young IT "professionals" will someday understand why it takes more than education to make them truly Professional.

by myshadow04

I just turned 50, I have been in the IT field since 1993, but for nearly 2 1/2 years I have been semi umemployed. Too me it si true that companies do not want to invest in older people regardless of their experience. Over the last 2 plus years I have sent out more resumes than I can remember. I heard back on just a handful. On my resume I did not stated my military years, so I would not age myself (I did this at the suggestion of a headhunter, who told me let them find out my age when they interview me). This I belive helped me get the few interviews that I did receive. I believe the age stopped them from hiring, even tho would not say that.

So do I believe in Age Prejudice? Yes VERY MUCH.

by ironmousetrap47

I am 57 and have done most of my IT work in Government. I believe that age becomes a factor in IT because of the often insane, often irrational, often destructive pace at which the industry evolves. Older folks like myself have seen fads come and go and move a bit more cautiously into new technology than the younger of the genre. That caution is often seen as resistance, even stagnation, when in fact it is simply a sincere desire and objective to minimize wasted energy and anticipate blind alleys. Folks my age applying for work in the IT industry must wear propeller beanies in order to impress and identify with the prevailing powers that be. As Paris Hilton, in her infinite wisdom would say, "That's hot".

by luckyleatherneck

Okay, so you're not the 20 something egotistical neophyte I thought you were. But 30 years ago I sure was.
Yes, ageism still exists today, and your unscientific test is good, but it is changing, although slowly. It is changing because industry is finding that, although one wiz-kid can put up some impressive Java results, the entire train of systems and interfaces to those systems needs thorough anaylsis and a well documented development plan to keep that train from jumping the tracks. Yes, some older folks wouldn't grow out of their comfort zone. I've got a friend, older than me if you can imagine it and already retired 20 years, that specializes in Assembler Code on IBM Mainframe computers. But he's still working today one contract after another because there's a ton of existing code that needs fixes and interfaces. I also ran into a situation with an insurance company here that told me, as a recruiter, not to send the "old guys" because they didn't want to here how it used to be.
The last people to accept change are the change agents themselves -- IT Professionals. But people are living longer and healthier. Our motto 30 years ago was; "20 years from now nobody will care, and we'll either be dead or too senile to be responsible." And then everyone (and I do mean everyone) was working 80 hours a week on Y2K to fix everything. Young hot shots grow old at the same rate as everyone else. Those that remain viable at 50 and after are starting to focus more on the three things I mentioned in my last reply without regard to age.
So, what do you tell the lads?
Lucky

by rocky530

I am 61 and have been looking for a job for a year. I got a million calls because I have an impressive resume. But, when I show up for the interview, they never called me back. I finally found a good job because my boss hired me over the phone. He is not sorry, I know my stuff. But it is a bitch out there. I am lucky to be working.

by Former member

I am 54 years old and so far I applied for at least 300 open positions, withing my experience and skills, and even lowered my pay expectations, but to no avail.

I think there are two categories of age discriminators in the IT hiring affairs: one is much younger network specialists in charge who are intimidated by older and more thoughtful and experienced persons seeking employment. The second, unfortunately, are IT managers or executive managers in business who themselves have dead brains at young age and survive on politics, cliques and backstabbing and they think every older person is like them, and they think that only younger persons are fresh and have functioning brains to do the job.

America is practicing age discrimination OPENLY with the approval of the Federal and State Governments and their so-called "anti-discrimination" agencies. After all the governments in the U.S. are totally enslaved by corporations and their dictat.

But, if you look at Government employees, starting with the Houses and Senates, you find people in their 80s and even at times 100s still working! Of course, they are genius in politics and bullshit management business, but in IT, at 54 we are "not good"!

That is my opinion.

by jkaras

Whose eyeball is that? Everytime I see it it just looks creepy. I invision the eyeball from squids or octopus (octopi?) like the cartoons would always have peeking into something to get the main character. I'm sure its human since it looks like the person is wearing Ben Franklin bifocals. If I had to guess it looks like the fat guy from Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome that says "Break the Deal Spin the Wheel." (he was a rather cool character, couldnt fight mind you but very imposing)I know he was a very popular actor Down Under, just cant remember his name.

by hal 9000

It's a part of a picture that was taken of me on 7-11 two days prior to that incident I dropped a 2.5 ton car on myself and nearly managed to kill my Boss so he sought of allowed me a 1 week break from work while I was in hospital. He only insisted that I have a LT and mobile phone constantly on hand and a connection for the LT to mobile so I could keep checking my e-mail. :)

My Boss is a real mongrel and I am constantly trying to kill him off but as yet haven't managed to but just end up hurting myself. It's one of the joys of being self employed. :D

Actually I took it off a while back after too many people e-mailed me insisting that it was following them around the room as they moved about. I had to give them the chance to get used to it before I reposted it. :p

The complete picture is even worse as I was purple from the chest up and when pulled from under the car was bleeding from the nose, eyes and ears. Apparently the blood could get up to my head but not back down again so I burst a lot of the smaller blood vessels and instead of having "White" in my eyes they where all red. :)

Col ]:)

by jkaras

My bad man. That is an amazing story, glad you are ok. I almost had my 68 camero once fall on me while under it when I was a teenager. For once in my life I listened to my older brother and had a jackstand in place. Sure enough the jack slipped and I got a bloody nose only. I was shaking so bad for hours that it took me the whole weekend to finish my repairs. To this day I still get a phobia when going under a car, when that actually happens, I got a Honda now, no wrenching no more!!!!

On a side note, one of the most disturbing things I saw was a truck driver showed me pictures of an ordeal that had him out for months. Basically he was handing down a door out of his rig when the person started to drop it. Instictfully he re-grabbed the door while holding on to a chain on the truck. The result was he tore about every muscle on his body. The picture showed every, I mean every muscle through translucent skin. He looked like those kids health shows that had a guy dressed in a body suit to point out every muscle in the body. It was soo freakish, major skin crawl.

by grossergnu

Sorry to say, but we have the same over here in Sweden. Same situation. People getting trouble getting jobs at over 40-45. One can get sarcastic or whatever over this, but it is actually a knowledge resorce loss.
In Sweden(I do not know other country regulations), but the soc taxation and other fees, costs to excuse people from their job at higher age, are much, much higher. Therefor companies avoid this, if you are not some well known hell of some guru. Whatever you do turns into solid gold.

Some people have therefor formed this Association of "elderly" IT people and they now offer their skill to companies in need of expert advice or in trouble of some sort. You will find former company directors among them.
This is not much, but all I know of. Sorry not to be able to give any other better ideas.

by hal 9000

It was a 280 SE Mercedes and it fell off the jack stands and they where not those crappy little ones that come from K-Mart but those even crappier ones that come from Snap On. :D

To this day I'm still unsure what happened as it had been on the stands for about 2 - 3 days if I remember correctly and I just climbed under it to undo the drive shaft when everything went to Hell in a Hand basket. I was turned on my side and reduced to 10.5 inches think. But what was really funny was that the people around me first instead of jacking up the car where asking me what I wanted done and I couldn't talk or breath for the matter. I still have a vivid memory of my son asking me what I wanted done and all I was trying to say is "Get this Bloody thing off me!" :)

But it got even worse latter when the meat wagon showed up there I was sitting on the grass smoking a cigarette and they tore strips off me about smoking I was sitting up as well which wasn't a good idea from their point of view. But they insisted on me lying down cutting off the overalls I was wearing and then trying to insert IV needles into me. When I finally was moved to the meat wagon I had 6 Iv's in me and latter I was told about the others that had been left lying on the ground out of their packets. Not a very clever idea really that one. But they had I saline IV going which I could sought of understand then where using another to inject morphine which I didn't really want I'm not sure what the others where in for and I never bothered asking. But the funny thing was that I couldn't move or I might really hurt myself so they put a neck brace on me then placed me on a backboard then a stretcher that was inserted under me and then assembled then onto the meat wagons rolling gurney. But as they picked me up the guy at my head beer gut was forcing my head down onto my chest now that did hurt. :)

When I got out of the meatworks I immediately got back under the car but only after making sure it was stable I reckon I would need a truck to push it off the jack stands but I'm dammed if I know how it fell. :p

But the one good thing to come out of it all is that I can now insist that I'm scared to get under a car and do any work on it when the wife demands that I fix her car. Currently it has a 50 cent part that needs replacing and it is a pig of a job so I'm putting it off until I need to do something more extreme. :D

You don't have to be mad but it sure as Hell helps. :p

Col ]:)

by privers

Age is the price of experience. You get what you pay for, and few employers seem to recognise its value. Maybe this is why IT is full of missed deadlines and poor deliverables.

by network_analyst

Hi Guys,

At my old employer, a medium-sized network integrator, I was originally hired because I could bring in new business. I promised $365,000 but actually brought in $1,087,000! As soon as the management had collected the profit, they began a campaign of harassment. I was told that they lacked confidence in my ability to do my job and that I was incompetent. Customer after customer would ask to have me assigned to their account as the analyst by name. But that didn't stop my management's consistent harassment. It went on for two years!

Finally, I became fed up and quit. I was hired on by another company who preferred seasoned IT workers. Within a few weeks, things began to go awry at my old employer. They started wanting to know who my new employer was. They sent out feelers through the professional community to learn of my latest employment. I was pleasantly surprised to learn that no one in the IT community would offer them any information including the clients!

Then their V.P. of Education quit. He was my age. Later I learned that another older manager was planning to leave as well. It would seem that experienced workers aren't really popular in that place. But the real kicker came when two of the clients that I had worked for under my old employer, called to have my new employer assign me to their projects.

I agree with all of you. Some "hot cat" managers have a prejudice against older workers. They also find, later on, that they have a problem with earning money. My former employer's revenue has dropped over 5 million since they started their campaign. Good for them!

by rapell

come to Uganda and lecture students...they need people like you here. Don't let that wealth of kn owledge and experience go to waste. come!

by dotxen

Hell and thank you for your response to my topic.

Please e-mail me your situation and I will get back to you immediately.

Robb

by dotxen

Hello and thank you for your response to my topic.

Please e-mail me your situation and I will get back to you immediately.

Robb

by mahansench

Unfortunately I'm in the same situation. I will be 50 this year and am currently unemployed. I live in Geneva, Switzerland and the work market has been very tough these past few years. I have more than 18 years experience and have so far only been interviewed for jobs 4 times in the past 6 months. No job offer has come so far although I still feel optimistic. Age does count.

by cmichael

Robb,
I'm 63 and will be out of a job sometime this summer. I have shot out hundreds of my IT resumes and am getting about a 1% response and no offers for interviews. Although I don't mention my age, my work record goes back 20 years.

by llady2000

I am 49 and the company I work in CT for recently closed. I applied to many jobs I am 100% qualified for and get no response. When the jobs are through a recruiter and I question them (and I got this response from at least half a dozen recruiters) they tell me that there would be no use for then submitting my resume, the employer won't talk to anyone over 30. Some only want 30ish males as well.
I did change my resume and soon got an interview but the young woman who interview me was pretty
unhappy when she met me and saw I was older than she was.

by wdoliver

Unfortunately I do not think you will ever get away from Prejudice in one form or another. It appears to be part of our nature.

In regards to Age prejudice, yes it is still aroung with all of the other types. I did a similar test myself with the exception of providing a photo when I was actually seeking other employment with similar results. I took it one step further I went to interviews for those who responded when I removed my age. I did not take any of the jobs; however, 75% of them made me offers.

In the US Age discriminations is against the law; however, it is difficult to prove. Even if age was the factor for not making the offer if asked they would say it was something else.

I make it a point not to provide age information, photos, or references in my resume. I also do not write biographies. I only include the experience that is related to the type of work I am interested and then only just enought to gain their interest for more. I only list my last ten years experience to prevent them from deriving my age. If they ask for age or photo upfront I do not bother with them. I do not want to work for a company that age and looks are the deciding factor for hire. I would not be surprise to find that they are also major factors for advancement in that company.

Age discrimination is there and is a result of our nature in sterotyping people. I am 55 years old and I am ashame to said that a lot of my peers the same age already had one career and are only interested in a 9-5 job with an establish routine and no interest in participating in company growth. Others are so set in their ways that they refuse to adapt to new technology. Now these individuals are the minority; however, once again it is our nature to remember the one bad trait and forget the 40 good ones.

In regards to getting the job in this environment I firmly believe you must sell yourself at the interview. Regardless of the impression your resume makes the one received during the first few minutes of an interview is the one rememeber. Of course, to sell yourself you must get the interview which is why I format my resume as previously stated.

I wish you the best of luck in finding a job that is aligned with your career interest.

by paron

When I was an undergrad, I heard of a famous self-study done by Vassar College (Ivy-league women's college in the U.S.) They undertook the study to show how non-discriminatory their admissions were.

What they found? They were 17x more likely to admit an attractive student than an unattractive one with equal qualifications -- this from an institution that prided itself on freedom from predjudice.

They took the high road, BTW -- stopped accepting photos on the applications, and published their results as a warning for other institutions that actually cared.

The upshot for this discussion? They can't help ageism even if they try, and many of them don't try. Without some legislated and economically enforced regulation, it will continue to be a fact of (long) life that age is a factor in hiring.

by rosaticrew

Robb... I have had age discrimination applied to me in person and face to face by HR people who believe some of the opinions you stated in your first posting. I have also seen some of the results, younger IT folks who believe they know it all because they don't have to think to get some piece of software or hardware installed. Unless you can tape or get it in writing, proving you are being discriminated against because of age is tough. The upside is that those companies that regularly do it are going to find it hard to get really qualified people and be able to keep the good one they have.

by tsecret

I agree, some people have the perception that if you are over 50 in our industry you are out of touch.
I am 54 and I have just finished a state of the art security product for Biometric authentication for any size organizations based on the latest Power 5 server from IBM (the i5). I have been working with the IBM R&D lab's in Rochester MN and it is my experience with cross platform, enterprise requirements and real applications that allowed me to lead the developement team to such a success. I believe that less experienced IT professionals do not have the scope of knowledge to design applications for large companies. It is all about perception, the i5 platform has the same problem. If anyone would look at the i5(AKA AS/400) they would quickly know why it is the most advanced OS in existance today.

by jtmail

Try being a veteran and 57. Even with a M.S. in management, I ended up working for a high school dropout at H&R Block. Nobody else will have me for anything.

John
Lakeland, GA

by davidfacer

I too am supposedly dead-in-the-head at the grand old age of 44. I too have 15 years experience in the IT industry. I did a VERY similar thing after becoming dispirited when I finished one long-term contract, only to find it hard to gain further employment. I had just turned 40. After six months of fruitless job searching, I also changed those details you did and got the same response - only to get abused by prospective employers when I provided my correct details. I never did find employment in Sydney again, and four years later I am now living on the NSW north coast and running my own business. I must have put my resume (proper one) to at least 150 prospective employers, and the BEST response (out of 15) I got was that I was overqualified! I used up a few shoes going to the employers directly, but all I got was a sore ass sitting in waiting rooms. Employers use EVERY trick in the book to not make it obvious, but they DO make pre-selections based on age - in EVERY part of the world. I don't know why, as older people have maturity, life experiences and JOB experience going for them. Senility does not usually come into the picture until much after 40, or even 50 .......... we are supposed to retire at 65 (being male) - what am I supposed to do between 40 and 65 for employment? I have some choices, but retraining at 44 is not a great one.

by tmcal

I am not surprised at Robb's findings, I wonder why people thought that this field would not be affected.
Unfortunately discrimination, bias, and cynicism are human responses that has existed since the beginning of time and is pervasive in much of life. Learning to manage these responses is the difficult challenge humanity faces.

by le-roy

...I wouldn't have been interested in your resume, for either age, if it contained as many misspellings/grammatical errors as your explanation above. If you can't take the time to spell or use a word properly, the quality of any of your efforts would have to be suspect.

by adow

I also am near your age (50) and applied for positions in IT that I'm qualified for - a Linux admin job. I didn't get an interview. They hired a 21 year old who had never used Linux, but was willing to learn.