Prejudice, cynism in the IT sector? Impossible!

so? he doesn't have to spell the way he did above...how dyu know English is not his first language??? might have a better command of his mother tongue than you do of your precious l'angalis!

is this a serious organisation or what? they just want to exploit the kid coz he has a weak fighting position, so they'll pay him whatever they want. Sorry about that, keep searching

I agree totally to "There is no earthly reason why you should be 'selling' your wares to one company exclusively."

I work with a great company and seem satisfied for now. But, I still sell my services to other companies after hours and weekends. I have repeat customers and if my full-time employer says by, I am still employed for myself.

Good post, I take your point.

I have written an article for the UK newspapers. So far only two editors have replied to me and indicated an interest. I guess the problem is that my article does'nt contain too much in the way of sex, drugs and violence.

Say la vee, as the say in France.

Robb

As bad your situation is - it's been like this since 20 years... every year more is automated - and every year more of your kind 'sob around their job' -> while you've known and seen the trend, working in IT. And your son and daughters better work in a mcdonalds - because this generation has jobs promised for ever??? and never change - never stop?

Isn't it rather like -> now that it hits you, it's suddenly important? And - did you really think this symptom is typical for the IT branch???

I'm ten years younger than you are and have experienced the same sh.. for long - but:
what about reaction, maybe in time?
I didn't have a choice - I had to make business on my own responsibility - my 3 kids don't care about 'economy'...

and: I'm in europe, where 'your own biz' is decently hard to achieve, compared to laws in u.s...

we cannot change globalism and automatization - but we can change our ways of thinking and 'what we're used to' - can't we???

More like 75 USD at this point.

I am a Brit' and very proud of it.

My experience is not unique and I know I have no monopoly on the truth. I just happened to have the time to do the test and felt strongly enough to want to write about it and get others to wise up and take note.

The topics I have contributed are particularly elequent and neither do they represent a unique view. But, they have generated some of the highest and most intense responses. That's all I could ask for.

I hope that some people in positions to make change will have read the responses and thought a little more deeply about the consequences to all of us, our industry and our countries, of perpetuating this bad and negative behaviour.

Robb

I don't think suicide or wrist cutting is an acceptable form of protest. One thought I did have is, maybe its time to hire a 53 year old Yank.

No offence, but I think you might have missed the point, or more likely I have failed to make it properly.

In the UK there are more IT vacancies than we have skilled and appropriate people to fill them. I can't speak for the USA, but I detect from my Americam colleagues and friends, that in some areas this is also the case. Here in the UK we are outsourcing and bringing in people from Eastern Europe and the Far East to fill out technical vacancies. India provides a very high percentage of our incoming techies. And yet there are many many unemployed and under-utilised mature and experienced indigenous people ready and wating to get going.

With all these skilled and knowledgeable folk raring to go, why are so many people (mature and experienced) failing to get a job? Why are so many people here, angry and disallusioned about their age in relation to their industry?

I do not have any answers. I only posed the question/statement about the problem of prejudice based on age.

Thanks for your response, I appreciate it.

Robb

My dad (now in his 60's) has gotten around the issue by working as a contractor through several agencies. When he had a heart attack a couple of years ago, there were head-hunter types calling him the next week asking when he would be ready to go back to work. He's been able to be picky about the types of jobs that he takes and limits contracts to 2 years, if the contract is not already limited to a shorter time.

Of course, where he lives (Massachusetts) and the type of work he does (boot code, on board diagnostics, and other low-level coding) both contribute to the availability of jobs for him. As he puts it, he feels like he's already retires because he basically sets his own hours and gets to do something that he loves so it doesn't really seem like work.

-Dell

Here in the US it would be grounds for termination. I know I wouldn't do that to a boss/employer who had graciously allowed use of a company car. I figure if I want a Mercedes, I'll buy one.

...agree. Add to this the good chance that one starts from a "home office" (read basement, garage, or attic...) and it sounds great: no more traffic jams to work; no more silly meetings masquerading as management -- a nice short commute.

Trouble is, you also never leave the office; work is a short walk away & every time you have an idea, you pop into to office...& come up for air hours later. When I first started I thought the family would be happy to have me working form home -- but their perspective was that I wasn't home: I was 'down there' (basement office..).

Ended up installing wireless (yes, w/ 128 WEP and VPN) so I could use a laptop while kids were doing homework, etc. I may not be paying anymore (or less) attention than I was before, but now that I'm visible in the kitchen or family room, I'm "home" again.

Like many here, I, too, am unlikely to go back to a corporate mill working for some techno-neanderthal manager. However, being my own boss wasn't without a few surprises & a sharp learning curve.

I've seen employers let over-50s go, only to 'contract them' as consultants, doing the same job, but at less money and no benefits.

I'm not in too bad of shape. 47 now, but in 4 years will have had 30 years here and be elegible for retirement. I might even try that Walmart Greeter thing... between fishing trips :)

Robb, it is no comfort to know that there is immense age discrimination in the entire Tech sector in North America. After 25 years of a very progressive career in tech-dom I took a year off to charge my batteries. That was 2 years ago. I am 50 now and trying to start my own gig since no-one wants to hire me. In the few interviews I had age came up subtly and not so subtly.
So what do we do about it?

troll for employees that another company just got done training!

Right after I finished a two week Java course, companies were calling me AT WORK offering me jobs!!!

Now my company doesn't have a policy on this, but if I were running one, I think I would insist that if I am going to pay for your training, you are going to use that training to improve my company for some minimum specified period of time.

just kidding before.

age discrimination is most blatant.
i will dye my hair before my next interview.
often the young pups are threatened.
i know exactly what the manager knows and does not know.
but you have to look for creative solutions.
never give up

rk

Why are you surprised? Discrimination is an accepted practice in Europe. Not only age but looks etc. There are no protections there. And they call themselves civilized! This does not happen only in IT. It happens in every sector. I know, I was born there and I am glad I had the opportunity to leave. You may want to say anything about the good old USofA, but this is the country of opportunities. I can attest to it.

I was wondering if you gave both resumes the exact same content, except age. One thought is that you would have a 55 year old with a list of experience, and also a 30 year old with the same list. If you were 30, would you have the same amount of experience as the 55 year old? A 30 year old with that level of experience would be impressive. Also, if you did not put the same amount of experience, how do you know it wasn't just the contents of the resume that made the difference?

Maybe a marketing survey would get some intersting feedback on resume differences vs. age.

That being said, I dropped my non-relevant experience and only listed my college education. That is how I get around the "overqualified" code word for "too old". Even then, I find being a girl geek makes it harder to get responses to my resume. I was thinking about changing my name to Pat...

When I took that step I thought a nice quite life a bit of work and then I could have something that I'd never had previously "Holidays!" :)

Well that only lasted for 12 hours or thereabouts as the same day I was approached by the 10 guys who are now working here all with a list of customers to come work for me {again} as if they didn't complain enough about me when they where working for me previously and all willing to take pay cuts just to be in at the beginning until I could pay them all the right amount when things got rolling. I should have known better and committed myself. A nice padded room with a lovely jacket with long sleeves that tie up quite neatly behind my back and enough drugs so I never worry about anything ever again. :(

But really they are like family and we are all the same as far as I'm concerned.

Now if I could just get rid of my Boss everything would be perfect. :p

Col ]:)

Why don't all of us throw in our lot with one another and start our own company? Even though I am currently employed, I'd like the idea of working in a place where age didn't make a difference.

I know, I know...it all sounds so rediculous. But I think it's one way to fight back. Think of it, all that brain power!

Oh well,at least I can identify with everyone.

would anyone attach a photo to their resume? Seriously, if someone sent me a resume with a photo attached, I'd think they were a little loopy, no matter what their age.

A couple of years ago, I was in the job market after being laid off. I was astonished to find that, at 43, I was considered to be "too experienced" for many jobs. I went to a networking group, and everyone there was over 40 and unemployed. That experience and the people in the group told me a lot.

So here I am, the formerly young whippersnapper who thought that I was terribly clever at 20-something - which I was, but I'm much more clever now - offering my speculation on reasons for the problem:

1. Perception of salary expectation for experienced staff is that they'll be out of the price range. Of course, to some degree, you get what you pay for. Can you afford to spend the first six to twelve months or more training someone? Or would it be more cost effective to hire someone who can hit the ground running because they have the experience necessary to get the job in hand rapidly?

2. Concern that an experienced person will get quickly bored with a job. May be true. May be not true. If I would get bored with a job now, I would have gotten bored nearly as quickly at age 20, though I probably would have been offered the job at 20. So if I take the job now, at least I bring my wisdom and experience to it, and the employer gets to benefit for about the same amount of time before I wriggle into something more challenging.

3. Younger managers can find hiring a person who is more knowledgeable and experienced than they are is a very threatening proposition. I've seen it, both from the 20-something perspective and now. It may not even be a conscious thing. Every hiring manager would benefit from examining their thoughts and feelings on this issue. How would you really feel if your subordinate could run rings around you, but you and your whole team could benefit and shine as a result? Doesn't that make for a wise hiring decision?

4. Some people think that with age comes inflexibility. Occasionally, that is true. Sometimes, however, perceived inflexibility is merely wisdom from gained experience, and a greater understanding of true ethics. And often the experienced person is more flexible than the less, and can see more and better options.

4. Lack of energy in older people. You ought to see my co-worker. In her mid 50s, she's a whirlwind who works an average 60 hour week. There are few that can keep up with her. My other observation is that even those who do have less energy than they might have had 20 or 30 years earlier, their knowledge and experience allows them to perform tasks more rapidly than the less experienced, simply because they have to seek answers less often.

If I read this 20 years ago, I would have bristled. If you're bristling now, step back and think through the logic of what I've said. You may find that your next hire is the more experienced worker, and you may benefit from it.

Did you change your experience to reflect your actual job experience at the age of 30.

Let's assume a starting working age of 20 to make the math easy. If you were honest about your experience at 30 (or some realistic version with today's acronyms) this is a valid experiment. If you simply changed the age on the application, you made this fictional 30 year old look like he had achieved 35 years of experience in only 10 years. Who wouldn't hire that guy. It is not a slight to you or ageism or anything else but common sense if you set yourself up to be compared to a savante you may come up short.

Sorry if these details or the same type of comments are posted somewhere in the thread. This is just my gut response to the summary.

When everything is going to hell around you?

Or one of the guys has just written off a recently finished restoration and all I was thinking about was how badly he was hurt. "I could inflict the punishment latter when the quacks had patched him up." ;)

Actually I would most likely drive you nuts as I'm a BAD BASTARD to work for or so I'm constantly told but the funny thing is that any of the guys will step in and take some of my work when they think I'm working too hard. Or steal my mobile phone just so I can have a nights peace and quite.

But working for yourself and having staff is a constant worry as I'm always feeling obliged to make sure that I have enough work so I can pay them.

Unlike a lot of the current places I would never consider laying off staff when things are slow as I know that I'll need them all again latter and to me they really are far more important than a few $ in my hip pocket or bank account. We are more family than anything else and all as mad as cut snakes so we all work together fairly well.

But if I knew then what I know now it would sure as hell be a different story. :D

Next time I have a bright idea like that last one I'm going to have myself committed and just sit in a nice padded room full of drugs and not noticing anything at all. :)

You know you have got it bad when after an operation you are told that the quacks thought that you had brain damage because they couldn't make sense of what you where saying. Apparently or so "She Who Must Be Obeyed" insists they quacks where really worried about me as I wasn't making any sense to them and after 3 hours in recovery I was transfered to a observation room for constant monitoring and it was there that the wife first saw me and she insists that when I was asked how I felt my only reply was "I've got a pain in my D Drive." Thats what had all the medical staff worried but she just laughed and said he's OK just send him up to the ward and he'll be OK tomorrow you might even understand a few of the words that he says then.

I really have no idea how true that is but she insists it is right. :D

Col ]:)

That now you're working you are far more likely to be offered another job by a different company who already know your age but also know how well you work.

Most likely they will be one of the companies who wouldn't employ you at first.

Try figure that one out.

Col ]:)

You are so right. I have gotten "retooled", re-engineered", "retrained" "right-sized" " only to lose out to less experienced IT'rs

What you said is perfectly correct only in the Western World. In the Asian Countries this just isn't a factor as they respect their elders unlike us the only thing that is currently happening in the Asian countries is that IT there is a "New" thing and so far there are not too many Old IT people there but as time goes on I'm sure that we'll all see them develop much faster than us because they are not willing to forget their elders and they want them working rather than throwing them out upon the scrap heap when they have finished with us or when they think we are no longer of any use to them or are too expensive to employ.

Col

you really ticked me off with your first post. You're on the money about prejudice. I was laid off 18 months ago. I have great references excellent experience multiple certifications (all current) but it took 18 months to get a job!! why?? I'm 57. I was priced competitively (I'm frugal) experienced and knowledgeable...could only be oe thing. The guys that passed me up missed out on a good deal.

Teaching the kid how things work in Linux?

Like most companies they employ the cheapest labor possible and then think that they are doing well because they saved a few $ at the expense of their productivity. Heaven forbid that the directors have to take a pay cut just to have someone who knows what they are doing and therefore makes the system work better so that they make more money.

Most of the current crop of companies are run by accountants who seem to think that everything is replaceable and cheap to do as well. They constantly are complaining about the cost of the wages for staff but I've yet to hear one complain about being over paid themselves.

I know my cynicism is showing through again isn't it?

Col ]:)

The question, "Don't you think you'll be bored with this position?" or statement, "I think you're really over-qualified for this spot" are responses I've received way too many times.
I am 58, soon to be 59, and getting an interview these days is nearly impossible. If I use my full QV, (I still call it a resume) then it is clear how old I am. I mean, job experience going back to 1974 means that either I violated child labor laws, or I'm not so very young any more. So, I?ve taken to giving out a shorter resume.
I would bet that this is not necessarily an IT problem, too, but I can only say what I?ve experienced in IT hiring practices.
While I cannot prove it, I also believe I was let go due to both my age and my health (heart condition). But they used the stock phrase, ?No longer a good fit,? after two years and never having been ?written up? or disciplined for anything. Especially since, on a Help Desk, I closed more calls than any two other people on the desk did!
Even trying to get consulting contracts has been difficult, for the same reasons.
The fact that I have a good, solid background and wide range of experience seems to mean nothing any more.
It's easier to pay someone half what I'd want, and then replace them a few times until they get the right person.
Makes no sense - it comes under the heading of "do it right the first time" as they're going to get the wrong people so many times, that they will pay head hunters - over the course of time - way more than if they hired one of us to begin with and went from there.
So, we're all in the same boat. Maybe we should join and create a company that helps us all get work, even at our "advanced ages" of over 50!
-a.

Good idea - I have 30 years experience, and I probably should leave off the earliest - but how many? Should I take off 10 -15 years?

I am having a terrible time finding a job, and I think it is due to both my age, and my experience. Whil I can probably pass for 40 - 45, my length of experience shows my age, particularly since I started work at 17....

I too am over 55 years. Started when dos was the thing. Now I go send in resumes and get maybe a call back. Probably due to the amount and types of software I list, some predate windows. I believe, I hope incorrectly, that it shows to possible employers an age. I have been in interviews that I have been first choice ,by their comments, only to find that they hired someone that was chosen a week after the close of the job interviews. I end up calling to find out anything and sometime get a staffer that wasn't suppose to give out that information. Just call me pissed! I believe it to be not more then 80% of the HR out there because I have had a resent job where I met the people before any mention of a job. They where OEM manufactures. Down sized was the reason of loss. They were great to work for and just let me prove myself. Russ

I am the first to admit that due to my limited background I'm a bit naive and sheltered from typical corporate thinking. But I can't help but be shocked and somewhat disgusted by this blatantly selfish logic.

I work with a wonderful team of 23 bright and creative individuals who work together to achieve our company's utmost potential. If I for one moment felt that any one of those people, myself included, carried the attitude of "you work for yourself and you're only at that company for the pay check", they would be out the door.

Now don't misunterstand me. I am one of those who believe wholeheartedly that you "work to live" not "live to work". When it comes to my life priorities, my job falls well down the list.

However, I also cannot fathom how anyone could spend a massive portion of their waking hours in something they have no loyalty to, and therefore cannot feel a real part of, but sees it as only a means of feeding their own selfish ambition.

It is just that back-stabbing, climb-over-anyone-in-your-way, everyone-for-themselves attitude that perpetuates the "corporate monster" so many on these forums despise.

Robb,

Your topic has certainly generated a tremendous response. You really hit a raw nerve there as the baby boomers continue to expand our universe.

After being laid off, since 9/11 dried up my company's contracts, the older folks one were the first to be turfed one by one.

Could'nt afford the health insurance premiums on unemployment in the good U.S. of A., so boogied back home to Ontario,Canada. Thank God for our Universal Health Care.

Sent out hundreds of apps but no reply. I kept updating myself in taking company sponsored courses in Project Management till the last minute while working. Thought that it would help to keep current. Obviously that didn't matter.

In Canada, took up some volunteering and a consulting job at a deep discount which could use my research (Hey, pays more than a Wal-Mart greeter!) and PC skills in delivering seminars on a brand new subject. - "Investing in Abilities" - The presentation was to bring awareness to employers (Targeted audience) that people with disabilities have proven that with a little accomodation, they are very loyal, hardworking and productive employees. These were verified with case histories. After a while the series of seminars were over,funding dried up.

So now I am once again pounding the keyboard away looking for an assignment (Maybe I'll move to Calgary, Alberta - heard there are more opportunities there!).

Hmmmm, anyone out there willing to fund a Project - "Investing in Experienced Abilities"?

Cheers guys, maybe we can all put our collective wisdom together and create something new! Ideas anyone!

Robb,

One factor may be that your thirty-something boss isn't comfortable with bossing someone who could be their father. Okay, that makes them a bad boss, but doesn't help you any.
Another thing may be that the positions you're applying for may be more fitting for a younger person, at least in the minds of the employers?
Were any of them project management or management positions? Even at my age of 50, I might question putting you on a team of 'kids', though I would at least want to interview you first.

Mike

(Thoughts of the hiring person)Well at 55 I would think you should be either running your business or managing an IT department. There is also the issue of maybe you would cost too much for all that experience. Take the former. Why is that not so? Is it that you are a failure in your field? Be it technical lack or personality defect. I am scanning dozens of resumes and am forced into assumptions to make fast decisions. All else being equal your age is an indicator of where you should be. either I do not think I can afford you since you may not stay for what I can offer or you are not as good as your age suggest you should be. Next resume. Just playing devils advocate. I am also 55 and have a hard time getting into IT so I am back in my field as a biomedical engineer with, currently, an X-Ray company. I have a total of 8 years IT experience with a few certs.

I'm 60, out of work. I had hoped a voluntary hiatus. After a year off I'm beginning to scout the prospects and suspect my vacation may stretch out there a bit further than anticipated.

This is what I find. Yes, there definite age discrmination. The real question is why. Sure, employers can get a newbie for less money than they think you will want, but employers also tend to have tunnel vision, thinking "I need a body to to X and X only." They don't spend much time looking at what additional value you may bring to the organization based on your experiences.

I also think most managers are intimidated by employees older than they are. They are uncomfortable trying to boss the older person around, no matter what the actual ages are. A twenty-something trying to manage a forty year old is as awkward as a forty year old trying to manage a sixty year old.

I can give you an example of what I'm running into. I started working with computers using a Teletype machine as input and paper tape as output. I worked with the very first every electronic messaging system in the whole world while in the military. I have degrees in accounting and finance. I have extensive experience developing systems in accounting, contract management, property management, publishing, and event productions. My position before leaving was a DBA and web app developer. I'm definitely hands on. Have been a manager and don't really want to do it anymore.

I see the real problem as not even getting a shot at an interview. I can take being rejected but I would like a chance now and again.

My sole job offer so far has been a ride operator at a local amusement park. Actually, I might like that if they could kick they pay up another 30-40K!

Out of Curiosity... In countries, ageism and the discrimination of it are illegal. Hvae you given the results of your survey to a Prosecutor and the local law enforcement? You may be lucky and find them during a slow period or someone who is on the "make" career wise and would love some good media soundbites.

Richard

From your post above I guess I see the problem thus...

If the high-tech gurus don't want to hire you, then that is fine. Perhaps we need to look to other places where the work is.

There is lots of tech work out there, not being done by a tech simply because the company or firm cannot afford to take on a full time member of staff.

They would prefer to have someone stable and knowledgeable who will be there when things do not go right.

THese are the companies that we need to be able to find for ourselves.

Andrew M

...getting discriminated against without the opportunity of an interview, or getting the chance in a face-to-face to perhaps overcome some of the prejudices? If you can't, then you're no worse off than before. But, if you can, then you've struck a blow for equality.

I've seen many cases where the interview went so well that factors that might have otherwise excluded someone suddenly become less important. Granted, your odds of landing the position may be less, but they're 0% if you can't get the interview in the first place.

Every job interview is nothing more than an opportunity to sell yourself, and if you're a good salesman, you can often overcome a lot of objections.

The most important thing is to get the interview - I've got no reservations at all about wasting their time. That's what they're being paid to do.

I am going to be 42 this year and moving countries again back to Australia from the US and the apprehehnsion level is really quite high at home at the moment.

We'll be OK for a few months while I try and find work but I have weddings and university to save for our two kids. I need a reasonabel level of income. I'm not old by any means but I am old-school and I know the business side as well as the tech side so I amore than hopeful that something will pop up.

But really what is the best approach to getting something in the industry. Be flexible? Be ready to move the family at the drop of a hat? Help!

Andrew Martin
Texas and headed for Oz as soon as poss...

I began my own business away from the corporate mindset mainly because I couldn't find a job either. At my age (52), no ne would hire me. And all I want is a technician job! I don't ask for anything special.

What I did discover, though, is a new law, recently passed by the US Supreme Court, that allows those of use who have been discriminated against or feel we've been discriminated against to defend our position. And all we need are statistics! Robb, your little unscientific study, could probably be used as a defense, if necessary to stop age discrimination within these companies.

I know it's not much, but at least in the US, we have some way to defend ourselves. And maybe these practices will stop or at least cause companies to rethink their position.

Regards,
Dennis

Robb:
I read today?s article and I am glad this was a test to see if any other people were having the same issues. Let me assure you that, I for one have been running into the same issue, just like you. I live in the US and let me tell you everyone knows age discrimination is going on, but no-one wants to take on big business. In my country you are entitled to unemployment when you loss your job. Even the state unempolyment agents know that there is age discrimination going on, but the laws are written in such away they cannot do anything about it. Large corporations have high paying law firms and accounts that help them walk the fine line so they do not get sued. And if you bring litigation against them, you do not have the financial recourse to fight them. In the US there are laws that permit a company to fire you without any reason. It is called ?At well employment?, if a manager just does not like you for what ever reason he just lets you go and if you are not in a union you have no recourse. I have seen companies, which will be unnamed, take over other companies and within a short period of time let most of the older employees go for one reason or another. They request or make policies that make working for them intolerable. Big business in the US has the power and the money to squash anyone or group that apposes them. One last comment, I worked for a company for twenty-seven years who had policies that would give every employee some protection against being fired for no reason. When this company was bought out by another company all those checks and balances went out the window. After 33 years at one company I was but in a position where I had no choice; I could not except there offer of employment because of family issues, so I lost my job, and now because of my age I cannot find a good paying job. I can go and cook hamburgers for minimum wage if I want a job. Oh well, that is life and maybe I need to get a life, and stop feeling sorry for myself. I think it is time to stop, and start smelling the roses, life is to short.

Here is proof that youth can be a real PAIN.

I'm not sure when it started, but I've grown very tired of running into grubby foam cups with TIPS written in crayon. I'm sorry I don't tip someone for putting a burger in a bag, thank you is all ya get.

I'd bet the 100 AU that the first was someone UNDER 18. Given a resposible IT position they would likely saw a slot in the cube and tape a TIPS sign just below.

it would seem from these other posts that in Europe age is a required so Robb's study is not as flawed as it would seem to us in the USA. I recently applied for a job where there was a form in the packet that required my birth date. I was appalled because in the USA it is illegal to ask for age and birth date is tantamount to the same thing. I have a friend who works for that outfit and she got me the "updated" version of the form, where suddenly now your birthdate is "optional" beside ethnicity and gender. It really doesn't matter: the young ones use their 70's early 80's birth year as a selling point, and anyone who leaves it off will be assumed to be a geezer. So my new tack is to do it in fountain pen (OMG who but a geezer would use one of those!!) and then "accidentally" splash a tiny drop of water on it so the year part is ambiguous. It's amazing how much 6 and 8 are alike when they get wet.

I don't think it will cahnge any time soon, because corporate America is run by the Stock Market and the only thing tha matters to them is the next quarter or at most the next years profits. Because of this corporate managers can't see beyond the base cost of an employee i.e. salary and benifits. So they would rather continue to train (Break-in) new employees, especially younger ones because they are cheaper, than to higher more experienced ones that don't need all that training. Even worse is the attitude that they would rather let the older, experienced (more expensive) employees go somewhere else rather than pay them enough to keep them and end up having to higher two new people to take their place and have to train them too. They will continue this cycle avery few years. About the time they get someone trained, they will refuse to pay them what they are worth. Then they start the cycle over again.
But then what do you expect from a society that wants everything now and can't see what may be needed down the road.
I know. I was there too long.

Thanks for your post Rob. You really had me going and p!ssed me off too. I should have suspected.

I live in Vancouver and am 46. I lost my tech support job in 2000, not due to the tech bubble bursting, but due to my former employers policy of dumping people over 40 in favor of people in their 20's. They do it every year, and it doesn't even seem to raise an eyebrow.

If I named the company, you would shake your head.

I have at least 10 years IT support experience and besides private support for small companies, I have never been able to get back to a full time IT support position. I did not get one interview between 2000 and 2003.

My education in in Electrical/Electronics, I also have some serious experience in that field. In 2003, I abandoned IT in favor of going back to my roots.

I have found that discrimination here in Vancouver is not limited to age, but also extends to race. If you are not Chinese, Phillipeno, or East Indian, you are not working in any kind of electronics manufacturing in this town.

I am abandoning technology altogether and going into the electrical trades. My only hope of employment seems to be in an industry that is short handed.

I resent this decision being made for me by some pimple faced recruiter or HR crone.

At 50, I recently had a face to face interview with a 20-something HR manager who made three grave mistakes. First, he asked "How long do you intend to work?" It was apparent to me that he was thinking about retirement issues already. Second, he should have had an IT rep there with him as he obviously knew nothing about IT. And third, he inquired on my accent. I am Canadian born but I have lived in the US for the last 15 years.
I was invited to a second interview but declined because of this first encounter. I had no intention of placing my aging career in this bozo's hands.

For those who are 40 to 45+ and believe you have heard 'you're overqualified' or 'you might be unhappy here' or things of that sort, I strongly suggest you check out (free of charge) Nick Corcodilos' ('Ask The Headhunter') website at
www.asktheheadhunter.com

His unique position may make sense to many of you and might move you forward if you feel stalled. He does not condone standard hiring practices, and gives you a perspective on job searching from the point of view of the headhunter, someone whose daily living is predicated on successfully placing people. His advice is amazing. And it really makes sense. I have no realtionship with him, except to enjoy his unique take on the market.

It's funny, I've considered starting a business that focused on senior employees for many years. There are businesses where younger employees simply can't do the job, they are either disinterested or are incompetent.

Only recently did I discover that a well-known firm in my area actually owned up to hiring older workers at reduced salaries. This is a major U.S. Government contractor, well-known for its quality of deliverables. Other businesses are very likely similarly engaged, but at least in the U.S. will not and cannot own up to it.

I experienced a whirlwind of a global IT company's worldwide downsizing a few years ago.
It was painful, after over 15 years of service, but it actually set me aright and forced me to consider after 32 continual years of working with little vacation and almost no sick leave, what is important in my life. Would that we should all have that opportunity! And guess what, those 'out of work' now do, so take advantage of it.

Best of luck to all!

The idea about offering shared services including executive and senior manager guns for hire has real possibilities and should be explored further.

Entrepreneurs and VCs understand the problem. You might even get to the point where a VC would recommend the company, brokering the relationship to those entrepreneurs who might be otherwise reluctant to try the model.

Think, as we all should, of the buyer's real issues and address them in his or her language. Likely technology is not a language most entrepeneurs speak despite what they may say.

THe way you write it there would be a missing $5.
This is actually an accounting issue. I saw it the first time in a math riddle book. It has to do with the way the accountants book receivables.
They show $30 in, $5 out, and $2 Bell hop and each man gets a buck. If you do the math in your head it appears if the $1 is missing but not really. If you do the math sequentialy rather than trying to go backwards. IE $30-$5=$25 + $2 + $3 = $30, rather than $10 each - $1 = $9 *3 +2= Won't work because of MDAS(MyDearAuntSally) or MultiplyDivideAddSubtract. IE accounting math vs Standard math. Clear as mudd right? I though so too.

First, let me congratulate Robb for bringing this serious topic to light.

Now for johnnywatt answer...

Your riddle is simply a malformed illogical question designed to obfuscate and confuse.

The faulty reasoning lies in the addition at the end.

For those with time to waste, you might want to visit http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/trivia/dollar.htm
Excerpt follows:
-------------------------------------------------
Origins: Just about any bit of Internet effluvia, it seems, can be given new life by dressing it up with the claim that sending it along will cause something to "appear on your screen." Just as forwarding the latest silly message to umpteen friends will not cause a cute video clip to waltz across one's PC screen, sending this puzzler along to more people will not produce the correct answer (unless one of the recipients writes back with the solution).

This particular item stumps a good many people because it contains a simple error which is often overlooked due to its deceptive wording. Tracking the money through the transactions reveals that no money has gone missing:

1) The three men start out with $10 each ($10 x 3 = $30).

2) The three men pay $30 for a hotel room. Afterwards, a five dollar overcharge is returned to them ($25 + $5 = $30).

3) The bellboy divides up the $5 overcharge, returning $1 to each of the three men (for a total of $3) and keeping $2 for himself ($25 + $3 + $2 = $30).

Where did the missing dollar go? Nowhere. A dollar only goes "missing" because the statement "each man paid $9 for the room" is wrong -- each of three men paid out a total of $9, but that $9 included both the room charge and the bellboy's tip. All in all, each man paid out a total of $9 and had $1 left over, completely accounting for the $30 they started with.

The room cost $25, so each man paid one-third of that cost ($8.33). The bellboy kept a tip of $2, so each man paid one-third of that cost ($0.67) as well. Overall, each man paid out $9 ($8.33 + $0.67) and had a dollar left over: (3 x $9) + (3 x $1) = $27 + $3 = $30.

Any dollars still left unaccounted for may be sent to us for proper disposal

I don't dispute the data you've gathered, and am not at all surprised by it. However, I wonder if there might be another interpretation than what you have offered. I know a lot of people my age (49) and older who are getting jobs (I just got a new one myself), but the more experienced people don't normally get work by sending out bunches of resumes and hoping something will come of it. Those resume mills are never going to get the best people for the job, or the best job for the people.

After working for 20 or so years you must have contacts that know your value. They're who you should be talking to. It's not that companies don't want mature, experienced people, it's just that they're not looking for them among their piles of resumes.

You did it right. I was fortunate enough that, after I sold a moderately successful business in 1994 and watched the grass grow for about three months, I developed a management software program for the type of business that I had been in for 20 years and sold it to several of my previous customers. One such customer needed an IT department from the ground up. Not knowing much about what was required, but supremely confident in my ability to learn, I took the job. That was 10 years ago, and I am still not an MCSAnything, but I still have the job at age 71 (not a typo). My son, however, a MCSE with years of experience, was caught up in HP downsize/merger and has been unable to find anything in the IT field. I believe that he has two strikes going in, his previous salary (even though he has stated that he will work for much less - like enough for food and fuel) but, more insiduously, his age (47). Many of the posts to this thread have addressed the fact that corporate America places little value on experience and knowlege. This is so prevalent and so stupid. One last point and I'll get off my soapbox. The way to solve the Social Security shortfall as well as return our economy to some semblance of normalcy is to get the jobs back within our borders. Yeah-Right!

We have this same age discrimination here in Canada to. It is not confined to IT either. I think the thing to do, as some have done, is start our own businesses and hire the more mature tech people etc. The one thing for sure about the older worker, especially in tech, is that many have better people skills than the 20 somethings. That means your clients are more at ease.
Start your own business and in time give the big boys something to think about. My two cents from Canada. Age 46

Anyone wants to share their opinion how women in IT face the criticism. Even though I am a project manager, I am continuously educated by my colleagues "so called IT guys" about how not to mistakenly shutdown Oracle instance or delete a network user! My managerial job (in small IT dept.) that I have earned through hard work and knowledge mandates me to have IT rights to do such tasks but few of my male co-workers keep treating all three female employee of the dept as second grade staff. In this day and age, I find it so petty that I don't even argue unnecessarily except letting my boss know of the truth and SHE understands.

So not to delve in any feminism discussion but purely addressing the gender issues too as part of this thread. Another issue is I am the only one in dept with an IT Masters? degree and others are ?self made? programmers.

You gave it to me !!!!

Most of the HR people I've met take the attitude that if you have any real opinions, you're a troublemaker; they're also suckers for people who can fake enthusiasm. Hiring as reality show.

They would normally demand your age on an application just because it's an additional item of identification. The way things are going, in a couple of years they'll just scan it off your TSA-implanted RFID tag.

And the salaries they command? Try being out of a job for a couple of years at age 50, and see how much YOU bid up your salary.

Management jobs in my area are not what you make of them, they're a matter of how well you conceal your body armor. Half the managers I knew spent half their time skewering their peers and the other half crippling their bright-and-shinies. Rule one still remains "My company, right or wrong."

Older employees probably gravitate to IT admin jobs because they're sick of dealing with the thrashing of the developer suites, and the endless quest of the younger developer to throw out everything that's been done up to now to replace it with the latest new, improved version of Visual Basic, C, Java, or Oracle (yes- I'm being deliberately obsolete there: there's no room for all the versions I could list). In an age when any business risk is treated like the next outbreak of pneumonic plague, some people still try to sell the bosses perpetual motion machines, and then come up with a new approach to chaotic life cycles.

And foithuhmoah- let's face it, a new graduate seldom knows what he can and can't do, or what her rights are, or how to recognize a deathmarch project when he's in one.

I'm 53. I've been in computers since 1978.
My latest schooling is approx. 18 months ago.
That also marks, the approx time of my last job interview.

What have I done lately? What are my skills?

Well, I had my own gig for awhile, and I'm good enough to keep 8 web servers, all feeding at the trough of a SQL server, all humming like a top. I even authored 90% of the software used on all the sites.

I've partnered in setting up a network where 38 windows machines, and two unix accounting servers, all happily co-exist to make a car dealership work.

Suffice it to sayt, if there is something you want done, involving a SQL database, and a web server, I'm your guy.

"Ageism"? Such a polite term! I could just puke. The last interview I was on, (I kid you not) the idiot actually had the nerve to ask me, "Are you sure you're going to live long enough to finish this project?" I stood there like a deer in the headlights! I just didn't know how to respond.

I am not employed, I feel, for two reasons:

1. I am actually insistent on making a living wage from my work.

2. I am not 18, ignorant, yet over-eager to please for peanuts.

What does this mean? Basically, it means I am willing to work anywhere in a 75 mile radius from my home, doing just about anything computer related, for any salary above $55K a year.

What most employers now seem to want, instead, is to hire 2 18 yr olds, for $30K each, and let 18 hour days of hurry and enthusiasm accomplish what I could do in 10 hour days of experience and planning.

I can and have worked with people of any age. I am not condescending, belligerent, or threatening of position, regardless of the person's age, yet I find myself increasingly bitter on how I am treated, vs. how I am.

To that end, ( and to perhaps stir the pot a bit) I would like to respond to the many posts I saw on Robb's previous thread, re. how us old geezers should just "politely get out of the way", etc., with a bit of ageism of my own, I have learned in this recent job hunt of mine:

"Son, the youth, and inexperience in life, which you so eloquently display, belie your ignorance of just how little in life you do not know."

Don't forget, in 15 years, or so, you will face the exact same situation yourselves. May you face better treatment than you have meted out.

Is this the real picture down under? I know that there are many IT pros who are out-of-job for months and even years.

I would agree on the first part - the recruitment agencies know nothing about the jobs.

Max

I live in Mexico, aging here is a gray drama. Legions of competing youngsters and labor laws which haven't changed since the 1920's. Prerequisites on age, marital status and sex, can be set by employers at their please, laws simply allow that. Getting a decent job is a miracle.
Seniority resembles wine, some aging improves it, but in the long run, it becomes rotten. At 54 I feel like wine at its best, having still some good years to go. We, IT people, do excercise brain far more than ordinary souls, a fine mean to fight senility.
Do you need a C# guru?, what's wrong if he was a proficient Fortraner long ago?. Is it dangerous an UML designer who was good on HIPO?. I know many Unix wizards, the best one became 66 of age recently, he deployed his first Unix in 1973, today he is certified in Solaris, HP-UX, Red Hat, and self-employed.
I didn't find trouble in moving from structured to OO programming, it was joyfull by all means, so I'm waiting the next wave, since OO won't be the last one. Amazingly, some young fellows embrace current approaches as if they were going to last forever.
Are we better than kids?. Certainly I wouldn't enjoy working three days in a row as I did 30 years ago, I leave that to young IT-superheroes. Life taught me a lot of facts, the valuable ones are not obsolete at all, newbies can't grab these by magic.
A real handicap? Managers feel fear for their jobs when senior fellows show up. A guy who has served 25+ years in the IT fields, won't easily become enthusiastic about clerical duties by leaving the skills of a lifetime to cope with the culture of an ordinary business. Middle aged guys are far more dangerous to 'rookie' managers.
Computer Science, Informatics, Information Technologies, are just names, we witnessed their growth in less than a lifetime, we are some kind of breed!

It is very common in other areas of big business I've personally seen far too many examples of it from the time I spent working for big business and I've fired a few IT staff who felt that way as well they didn't cut in in my section so they left as they where only there for their weekly pay check and would just waste time and generally be nonproductive and even worse consume time by other staff who where already covering for them.

Recently a new term has been coined for some in business calling them Psychotic of something as they regularly demean people and take the credit for their work to gain advancement and increases in payments.

While this is not a new thing it is only now being recognized for what it is and in companies where these people work they regularly cause so many problems that the productive staff leave and then they no longer have the ability to take the credit for others work.

These people are a perfect example of the S##t floating to the top.

Col ]:)

If you don't mind working for Uncle Sam, there are vacancies where i work. I have three. I am a 40something IT manager that is very short handed. I also started my own business and things are looking good there. The thing I have found, and currently I have a specific target market, is that I am trusted by older home computer users because I have experience under my belt. Don't despair. There's work out there for you.

As I walked out on Big Business a few years ago. But the important thing is to sell yourself at the interview. Most often you'll be faced with a wet behind the ears HR person who knows absolutely nothing at all about the position that they are interviewing for.

Then if you at the very least confuse them or impress them they will pass your CV onto the right people who do the actual hiring and firing I used to be in this position and it really drove me nuts as I would get a couple of CV's passed to me and they where all not qualified for the job in hand. On more than one occasion I went through all the CV's that had been submitted for the position myself and chose the ones who I wanted to see and mostly they where a bit peeved off with their treatment by the people who where supposedly helping me and screening the applicants. Some of the ones that I really wanted to talk to or even knew of by reputation wouldn't even accept phone calls from me because of the way that they had been treated by the first person to interview them.

They where the hardest to deal with and most often the ones that I really wanted so I had to go well out of my way to even get them to talk to me and eventually work at the place where they had previously stated they would never again contemplate working at.

Don't get me wrong it's not easy particularly when you get some pimply faced youngster doing the hiring and firring as they themselves feel superior to everyone and are threatened by your abilities. The fact that you have business knowledge can work for you in some instances and against you in others it all depends on how secure in themselves the department managers feel.

I hope that is of some use to you but stick to the major Cities like Sydney or Melbourne or maybe even Darwin at least it is warm there and you don't get all 4 seasons in a hour like you can in Melbourne some days. Right at the moment Darwin is screaming out for a lot of trained staff not necessarily in the IT sector but a lot of people either have not got the qualifications or have just been head hunted and moved away to bigger cities further south. It's worth a look at the very least.

Col ]:)

To answer as many of the posts here and on my previous topic. I have also spent the last week responding to the massive mail-box that I have generated. It's great to know that I am not alone on my little island in the Altlantic in my quest for the holy grail. That is to make a small contribution toward a fairer and more equitable workplace in my industry.

From the number of posts I can see that there is a problem, and not just here in the UK. YOu guys over there in the US and Oz, Kiwi land and Canada, Mexica and many other countries have exactly the same problems with the attitude of society toward the 40+ valuable, experienced and precious resource that we are.

Robb

We don't have any age descrimination laws right now.

Apparently the Europeans are putting something together for next year. I guess it willl seep across the water to us.

In the meantime, it's all about spreading the word, encouraging change and staying angry.

Robb

Not disimilar to my own situation a while ago.

Oh yes, one more thing. There's not much room in the hole. Fairly crowded I believe.

Robb

Same in UK. I've run my own support company for 7 years now and the rewards (not financial) are great. At 50+ (now 55) I found just the same - no interviews. Any one else who is concnerned, maybe you can work for yourself. There are plenty out there who would prefer a more mature support engineer on their site or in their home, than a youngster (no offence intended to the younger element)
Greg

Just because it has not been done before does not mean it can't be done.

This is what revolutions are all about. The micro-electronics revolution (much bigger than Information Technology) is still in its infancy stages.

Although I've got nothing concrete at the moment to contribute to your idea, I think that with perseverance and luck you will ultimately reach your goals.

But the seed has been planted... Let it germinate and see what happens.

"When preparation meets opportunity luck happens"

People our age ("Geezers" by IT standards), have had much more time to prepare than the fresh, young, innocent Noobs entering this field.

Thus we should be more apt at catching any potential opportunity passing by.

I must say that when I started, I lacked the confidence needed to go into business for myself. I presume most Noobs would feel the same way, opting instead for the "safety" of a regular paycheck.

But one thing I found over the years is no matter what, one does not get "rich" or at least financially independent by working for others, even if you earn six or more figures...

Those who take risks usually fare much better in life.

Can I apply for a job?