IT Employment
This is page 3 of the discussion. Read the opening post
by netsec
I do that anyway. Even when away from the office, I get calls 24/7 and I take care of them. My philosophy is doing what needs to be done to make sure the users have as little inconvenience as possible.
Of course IT has made it a little easier than it used to be now that we have VPN Access.
by dotxen
We release a toxin in the executive washroom.
This toxin has the affect of bringing normally ignorant and stupid people, with the intellect of a boiled potato, to a new high.
One whiff and they suddenly realise that they are 40+ and all that goes with that passes through their tiny brains. They know that they can't live for ever, that they belong to the same race as us and that what they do can hurt.
The toxin creates a small hollow in their brain and the next time they fire someone for being too old, or not fitting in to thier flat-pack mentality, the chemical in that hollow, in what passes for their brain, gives them a 20,000 volt kick in the arse.
Get my drift?
Robb
by dotxen
I just did what I did.
There was no real super-planning. I sent a CV out with my truthful age and stuff. I then sent out another CV (appropriately modified) on which I lied blatently and in a criminal fashion.
That's it, nothin more to report.
The response was what all this is about.
We can play around with words, pedantics, semantics. But the truth is that those over 40 to 45+ are being badly treated by people big and clever enough to know better. That, my friend, is just not cricket!
Robb
by jdgeek
I tend to want to agree with the point you are making about people who know better behaving badly. In most instances I believe that the big boys got where they are by behaving badly even though they should know better.
I did not mean to come of as a pedant. To be fair, I think I raised a valid point which deserves to be acknowledged just as the work you've done and experience you've achieved deserve to be acknowledged.
Thanks for stirring the pot. You spawned a great discussion.
by dotxen
Thanks. It was nothing!
Robb.
by dotxen
Lloyd, dear heart, it's MATHS. Not Math. Please try hard to speak the Queens English correctly.
Robb.
by mikebytes
Your initial "discussion" point did raise my ire. (For you folks under 30 "ire" means it pissed me off) however, I did note in my reply that you should provide the opportunity to work to anyone qualified.
Robb, when I was 54 and laid off from BofA I was told by headhunters after 2 months that they were not able to find anything for me because of my age. I am glad they were honest with me so I could redirect my efforts. I have had employment on a sporadic basis since then (2 years). Since this is reality we "old" guys need to advise the youngsters out there to be more aware of their future and plan to retire at a younger age when they get the boot and cannot get a job.
Mike Wierman
by dotxen
We should make sure that we educate the younger folk about what awaits them in their future career.
No-one want to rain on someone's parade, but - forewarned is forearmed.
Thanks Mike.
Robb
by paron
Anything not directly bearing on your performance of the job requirements is almost certainly an attempt to winnow you out of the field.
I would include "salary requirements" in this. However, as we all know, in the winnowing process they "own the ball", so they make the rules.
by pry1
I'm in the position of being in my late fifties and trying to find a new job, so I've been following Robb's thread with great interest. I attended the Inspired Work Discovery program several months ago and found it very helpfull in redefining my goals and objectives regarding employemnt. I want to add the following newsletter to the thread in the hope that it may help someone.
------------------
Dear Reader,
A few years ago, attorneys sent me to another town on a mission, to save a company. The owners were globally influential and their organization had grown very quickly. Like so many entrepreneurs, they had never learned how to hire the right people nor did they fully understand how to work with each other in an effective and supportive manner. We brought the board back to the table and created a timetable for solutions. In the process, it became apparent that many changes had to occur with the professional staff.
Now I'm an old recruiter. Before I moved in my life's work, I hustled workers from one company to another. Organizations were either "clients" or "sources." At least in my world, the purpose of recruitment wasn't to better people's lives, it was to move them from one place to another. Please understand that I'm not trying to take potshots at recruiters, that's coming. The real intent is to influence an idea that we can take charge of our own lives and in doing so, it may be time to redefine our career standards. Simply letting a salesperson talk us into another job, just like the one we hated, might not lead to happiness.
On to the point: Employers tend to fall into sludge, drudge and escalating workplace problems by putting up with the old formulas for recruitment. I think of a very well known pet chain that rhymes with the words, "get go." If you want to evaluate how overlooking talent management strategies can influence the quanity and quality of your customers, go visit this chain. Try to get assistance, try to keep your sanity as it takes fifteen minutes to be checked-out. In my case, I got irritated enough to bring up their name to friends only to be told that In Defense of Animals has been boycotting 'get go' because they claim it mistreats the little animals waiting to be sold. They probably just don't have anyone to feed them.
Back to the corporate reorganization:
At the time, I felt that Internet recruitment was a nightmare, getting either 6,000 resumes from unqualified candidates or no resumes at all. On the other hand, if we used traditional recruitment, our client would be dissatisfied with what could easily have been a million dollar staffing process. In the end, we were able to find over thirty qualified professionals plus a CEO for less than fifty thousand dollars. The process happened with a minimum of fuss and our average ?time open? was less than two weeks. I?m finding that most companies still feel it is acceptable to live with ?time open? numbers that impact every single aspect of profit making and high quality morale.
According to the Saratoga Institute, companies are spending an average of 65 days to fill their job openings. So many organizations are running ?lean? that we live with stress and burn-out as it is. But what are the consequences of living with an open position for a month, two-months, perhaps even six? The greatest damage to an individual or a workplace isn?t from intention. How many of us intend to create damage? The greatest damage comes from hypnosis. It comes from assumptions. For example, Staffing.org publishes a list entitled, ?Established Recruiting Process.? How many steps do you think is being described as ?the norm?? How about 101 steps?
The technology-driven recruitment firm that transformed my outlook is called Decision ToolBox. Their President, Kim Sheperd states, ?Companies should not accept 65 days as a reasonable amount of time to fill their openings. The majority of positions can be filled within 30 days through a combination of technology, careful application of strategy and schedule management.?
Let's decipher this: Kim is talking about is getting more by combining the best of technology with better human thinking. Getting into better solutions often requires that we don't get caught up in traditional turf war language. We still find traditional recruitment demonizing the Monster.Coms of the world, ?Oh, you simply can?t get the best candidates without that personal selection process.? And, the Internet companies are chortling, ?Why pay these ridiculous fees?? The dynamic continues in most industries. If you are patient, we can find a similar turf war in healthcare between traditional and "alternative" medicine. The most educated consumers of healthcare often blend both worlds and get healthy more quickly. Traditional and alternative medicine impose a disservice to the community by continuing this competition.
Corporate bureaucrats continue to characterize the costs of an open position as a ?soft? expense. Why are we so soft on providing answers? What are the actual costs to your organization in lost productivity, low morale and diminished corporate intelligence? Are these questions worthy of answers?
Inspired Work is in a strategic relationship with Decision ToolBox. I?m not here to sell their service. My role is to primarily question ?the norm? and propose that in various ways, the world of work may be ready to move forward. What could happen to your work environment if you started to assume you could find the right person to take that load off your shoulders in a few weeks rather than a few months?
What would happen to your work environment if you had all of the talent to make the results - extraordinary?
Be well,
David Harder
An Acknowledgement:
In front of the world, I want to thank my best friend, Debra Johnson, a brilliant and loving attorney, a former hip-hop professional dancer and one of the great hearts in the world. Two weeks ago today, Debra heard that it may be time for me to find my birth mother. Within fourteen hours, she located my mom. We were reunited last week and as an adopted child, fifty-two years later, I can say miracles do happen and they often come through friends and the real Bhuddas of the world could be right next to you.
With love to Debra - Happy Mother's Day - David Harder
?, Copyright (All Rights Reserved), 2005 - Inspired Work, Inc.
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ANNOUNCEMENTS
" I outgrew this long ago but what am I going to do with my life?"
"How long will I actually put up with this situation?"
"I'd like to resolve the long-hours and stress at work with the needs of my family but how can I set aside two-days to clear up the biggest challenge in my life?"
"I'd like to stop feeling like I'm begging for business when I sell."
"How will I ever stop feeling uncomfortable with sales?"
"I love what I do but my income doesn't match my value."
"I really value this employee but the relationship has turned sour."
"Nothing pains me more than to drive back to the office, knowing this problem is still there, waiting for me."
"I'm used to success, love learning experiences and believe that investing in my future is a valuable and worthy cause."
"I want better and more tangible results from my work."
"Nothing would make me more happy than to walk into the office, make gobs of money, love working with my employees and know we are winning with each other and with our customers."
THE DISCOVERY PROGRAM - May 7 & 8
The Discovery Program, in two-days, leads you to clear and highly personalized definitions of what work will look like for you, if you have a great relationship with it. As a consequence, your entire life improves. The Discovery Program has served thousands of individuals in realizing solutions to anything that has thrown them off the road towards fulfillment and success. And, it's given them the tools to accelerate their dreams and ambitions.
"The Discovery Program allowed me to really look at and evaluate my true passions in such a new way, they could be integrated with my career. I left the program very inspired and with a strong sense of direction on how to propel my career forward, to design it exactly how I wanted it to be."
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Make a comparison: How much of your waking hours are spent getting ready for, being at, driving home and recovering from work? Come join us for the mother's day weekend and afterwards, take something to mom that's worthy of her celebration. If you are a mother, come and create a relationship with your work that gives you a greater relationship with your home life. The results are that profound.
INSPIRED SALES - May 14
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by dotxen
That is a long reply and is inspiring. It is also something that everyone can apply themselves to.
But, at risk of being an ingrate, it does'nt answer the problem directly. The only way to do that is to stop the rot. What you have offered is excellent and I would not detract one iota from it. But it is a workaround, as all that we do to mitigate the impact on us as individuals, is a workaround.
by instituting a workaround you, by definition, avoid dealing directly with the cause of the original problem. Although all that you state and display is very very useful, valuable and good, it is a diversion from the issue. I say that with great respect to you.
Unless and until we deal with the core problem, we will never resolve it. I accept that while we move in that direction, slowly ever so slowly, we have to do something, so a workaround is what we do, and that is fine.
Robb
by hal 9000
There will not be a problem as there will just not be enough young kids to fill the holes that business need.
Lets face facts we have an aging population and because of this in a few years those who are the young ones now will have job security as it will not be possible to just replace them because there is no one around to fill their shoes.
I suppose this comes from living on the bleeding edge of the IT industry as most of us where their for its birth as it appears today. While I really still love mainframes I do accept that there isn't the need for them today that there once was. I'm old enough to have worked with the more modern mainframes those being the ones that didn't rely on punch cards to program them but by todays standards almost any of the high end LT's could perform as much number crunching as those enormous mainframes did if not more.
I suppose we got to play with all the new toys and we are paying the price for it now by being replaced by the youngsters although in my case it was a deliberate decision to get the Hell out of the place and do what I wanted to do instead of doing as I was told to do and how to do things that I considered as wrong.
Col ]:)
by lpan1
Every problem has a solution. Innovation has its rewards. More to come but I need to think about this deeper.
One thing is for sure. A good solution would benefit everybody, young and old(er) alike.
by crc_1
by ladyjet
Hi! I read your information and wish you the best of luck. I'm sure that you'll do well, but I do have a comment about companies who hire the younger over the older IT persons.
Part of the reason the companies hire people 30 and younger is that they can pay them less. Let's face it, even if they pay them $30k/year, it's still less than they'd pay someone in their 40's and 50's who'd want at least $50+k/year with their expernience. Of course, we all know that they wind up letting these people go when they don't perform, which means they don't get the experience they need to do the job, but that's part of big business today: The bottom line and MONEY...
So, you can probably do well if you do an IT consulting business where they hire IT personnel from a stock of your IT people and pay then on the job basis, rather than the same people working for them at $50+k/year.
So, again, good luck to you in the future...we'll be waiting to hear how you do.
by ladyjet
Robb, you knew there was ageism in the IT sector before you put out your CV/resume with your real age on it. However, you never put your age (or dates, until the interview--you can't hire age and/or experience) on your CV/resume because of the laws in this day and age to reduce ageism.
However, even if you didn't use your age/work experience with dates, you still have to figure out how to deal with how you look and how much you want to make. If you want over $50+k/year, it's obvious iwht your experience that you 1) need to make that much, or 2) have the experience to get that much. Now what?
Ageism is not just in the IT business of the computer age. Ageism is rampant all over because with businesses now, bottomline is the most important thing. They hire people younger than 30 because they can get away with paying them less money, even if they appear to give them more--it's not what an experienced worker would want/need for the same job. If they can make mroe money, even if they have to let the younger people go for incompetence, it's less than they'd pay someone in their late 40's/early 50's. Not to mention that if you are really looking for a job, lying on your applicaiton could be cause to get you fired immediately.
There has to be a way to get around this, but so far, the companies are only looking at the Money and the Bottomline, rather than finding someone who can stablize their IT departments. If they can make more profit by hiring people who are just out of school, they'll do that... They're not smart enough to realize that with an experienced person, they could stem the losses much easier and better. Big business? Go figure...
Maybe they should advertise for IT workers here in the States. Is there any online websites down there where one can apply for jobs in AU?
Always wanted to visit Australia.
Keith
KeithWilliamsATL@netscape.net
by vangar
http://www.jobnet.com.au & http://it.seek.com.au/
are the two I use the most, both provide a huge number of available positions from the majority of Aussie recruiters as as well as directories of Recruiters sites.
http://www.immi.gov.au/work/index.htm is the gov immigration site that provides some info on thee rules for getting in to the country.
Just make sure you have credentials .. I don't know how it is in the rest of the world but degrees and certifications are what recruiters want.
I have read that we are suffering a massive skill shortage but in all honestly the fact is that we have the skills, it's just that there is a large base of uncertified skilled workers.
I know guys that could write the manual on enterprise development that have aquired the skills on the job developing infrastructure for global companies that can't get jobs because they do not have degrees and aree not certified in their skills. These guys are getting turned down and the jobs given to new graduates because recruiters can't see past the "Certificate".
The sad fact is that some of the best people are the ones that live and breath IT, have absorbed more skills than you could believe through the pure love of studying technology but have never done the formalised study (or found the time).
These people are bypassed and some bloke that thought IT might be a nice job and paid 4000 dollars for a IT training course but has trouble even turning on a PC will get the job.
I suppose it ccomes back to the recruiting thing and ease of processing.
I hired an MSCE recently that didn't know what IP was ???.
I also hired an ex helpdesk guy with no credentials. The helpdesk guy is teaching me stuff. It turns out that he has spent the last 15 years learning every peice of technology known to man and actively participates in open source dev on more platforms than you could poke a stick at.
I know which one I will keep.
by dotxen
Thanks. And thanks for taking part. It's only because people made points, got annoyed and irritated with me that this topic has had so much activity and interest.
I don't mind the brick-bats and abuse, means absolutely diddly-squat. What does annoy me is inertia and indifference. There is not too much of that on this web site I am pleased to say, thanks to people like you.
Happy Trails.
Robb
by dotxen
Grand old age of 44!!!!! Cripes mate, your only a whipper-snapper, an ankle-biter. Your not even mature! Now, get down on Bondi beach in your best mini strides and watch out for those Funnel-Web spiders sport, they don't 'alf give yuh a bite!
Seriously, your points all make good reading and support my contention that this is a world-wide problem (at least a Western world-wide problem).
It's interesting to note just how many people got fed up and started up their own business. It's easier said than done of course. I know, that's what I do. But, it is at least a way out.
I hope that you are doing well and if you do employ another person or two, let's hope that you can strike a blow for freedom and employ an old duffer like me.
Robb
by dotxen
However me old mate, I agree with your sentiments, if not with your grammar.
Robb
by dotxen
In the good old UK then. Well done.
Where are you. I am based in Wiltshire, down near Stonehenge.
Are you employing anyone else in your tech-supp business?
I would be intersted to hear what you have to say about the tpic and your own experiences.
Robb
by dotxen
I had a very boring weekend in Skovde a few years ago. The pubs were state owned and everything closed dead on 5pm!! Aargh!
I am surprised to hear that you have similar problems in Svenska. I though you guys were all hand-wringing pinkos who paid 50% tax on water and drove cars that did 250 miles to every gallon of Elk pee.
It really is a bleak future for all of us as we drift inevitably toward our Zimmer-frames. Is there any legislation in Sweden against this kind of ageist twaddle?
Sweden is usually ten years ahead of the UK in social policy. I would be surprised if there isn;t some law on your statute books that outlaws ageism.
Thanks for your valued contribution. I do appreciate every single response from everyone, even those that abuse me.
Keep in touch and let us know what trhe situation is in Sweden.
Loved Upsala cathedral.
Robb
by java_cruise
I had a similiar experience when I turned 50. My job got outsourced to India. So, I sent out about 300 resumes across the country, targeted to specific technologies I was experienced in. I had great references, performance reviews. Primary skills in Java, C++, DBA (Oracle,Sql Server), etc. Nada, not one reply in 300. A friend got me a short contract job I took for 3 months. I then took the same resumes truncated the experience to 10 years (I have 20 years experience) removed the dates I graduated from college (BSCS/BSEE) degrees and sent them out to the same 300. I got 3 interviews and 2 offers immediately from that bunch. Hmmm, no discrimination! Yah, right!
Also, in my late thirties I was first programmer hired. I was the lead and given the responsibility to hire the rest of the team. One incredible candidate did better on the interview questions than any one I have ever seen. I would say I'm good programmer and this guy was so sharp I asked a plethora of questions beyond what I normally would. He went to the whiteboard and knocked out code with ease. Oh yeah, he was 60 yrs old!!! The comp. prez found out I had brought him over his 'nobody over fifty rule', the candidate got the boot.
Bottom line, "Do NOT let your kids grow up to be techies" Even if they survive the outsourcing they have no chance for longevity.
by bearyann
by ramabrooks
I am 29 years old and in my 4th year as an Information Technology professional. With the exception of my current assignment every other previous IT assignment, the "older techs" would dismiss us 20 somethings as not having any "knowledge or expereince."
This would come mainly from guys who are over 45 in age. Very few had any college under their belt and the majority assumed they know it all.
Since many people in the "older age group" got into the IT field prior to formalized college programs or certification testing they tend to scoff at working on a degree or learning what it takes to pass a certification test. I do not wish to come across as saying all techs in that age group are like that, just from previous jobs I would say maybe 60% to 75% would fit into this description.
I have found some great mentors and friends in the older crowd and they like me cannot stand the know it alls. Face it IT is to large and complex for one person to know it all and be an expert in it.
One mentor in particular told me that I have 2 choices "learn or die." Those who refuse to learn will find that their career options get shorter.
I would submit that if the resume for the 55 year old had emphasizesd continual learning and growth on more current technologies that there would have been more positive feedback.
Finally, no one in their right mind is suppose to inlcude their age and a photograph when submitting a resume for an IT job. A more scientific study would involve having 2 techs resumes one a person starting in the field and the other being a vetern of IT. Leave age and pics off of it. While you are at it, include a 3rd resume that is mid-career with certs and a college degree and see which one gets the most responses.
Age is not the issue. It is the eternal triad of expereince, education (both college and non-college) and certifications that gets people hired not just because of a person's age. To suggest that people are not getting jobs or passed over because they are too young or too old is the dumbest thing I have heard in IT (including some of the things end users say).
Regardless of your age, you might want to do the following if your resume is seriously sucking on getting job offers:
1) Make sure it is current and up to date
2) Have a professional (like an English teacher) proof read your resume
3) Make sure that your skills are current for the positions you are applying for. If you have 10 years of Windows 3.1 support under your belt, it will not help you with getting a job for Longhorn upgrades.
4) See if the local community college has classes on technology for a job position you want to move into. Consider picking up a technical certificate or degree.
5) Do a brain dump of all your skills, experience, certifications and training/education into one massive resume. Mine is about 4 pages long. From this massive resume, you can copy and paste items that will help you for certain jobs. You could easily come up with multiple resumes each for a different type of IT job (network admin, server admin, DBA, PM and etc).
6) Get certified. View certification as the final exam for a self study class in which you learn the susbstance to the certification.
7) find places to volunteer to gain experience for IT areas that you want to grow into. Besides you build good karma and increase the possibilty that a future employer will know of work through your volunteer experience. Remember the 6 degrees of seperation thing.
8) Get a life, a social life that is. Again with the six-degrees of seperation thing. You may find that even if you end up answering more questions than you ask your social network, that one of them might mention you to someone who is looking for a smart tech.
9) Be happy! No one likes to work with people who have a dark cloud over them.
10) And finally to qoute Napoleon Hill, author of Think and Grow Rich, "practice the law of over compensation. If the benefit does not come at this job, it will come to you in a future job with compounded interest!"
Thanks,
Rama K. Brooks, A+, Netork+, AAS
Generation-X Redneck
from Webberville, MI
by zlitocook
At what Bush is doing to the IT field. About 20.000 new H1 new people. Because we here in the US are too stupid to do the job. It jobs are going to places that can even understand what our country thinks. And when you call their help desk, you talk to john or sam but can not understand what they are saying.
You need a job go to asia or india and ask for a buck a day.
Sorry I have been reading Money mag. and some others on line.
We are not looseing to other countrys, we are a great country and can do more then the small countrys can.
We have and always will be the leader in computers and software.
I will not be a second in any thing! Email me and we will start a new USA division of IT.
by omesiasv
I am 48 and with the same problem. Your message was really useful. Now, where do you (all people here) get the time to follow this most interesting discussion?
I will just begin to experiment with multiple resumes and "multiple age".
by hal 9000
Now really you can not expect any sense from them can you? ;)
Currently they are awarding 2 year work permits so if everything goes to their plans we should only have a 2 year wait for the new trainees to become available. You have to admire the "Common Sense" that they do show don't you? :D
And people wonder why it is that I have such a low regard for Politicians. :D
Col ]:)
by hal 9000
Many years ago when I was really feed up with working for big business and IT I too attempted to go back to my "Roots" so the speak and I wanted a job where I wouldn't be constantly the end person who had to know everything so I applied as nothing more than an assembler at a small electronics place. The interview when fairly well until the Head of the assembly department asked for a practical demonstration of my ability so he had a few circuit boards assembled and placed in a soldering rack and told me to have a go. :D
My mistake was that I finished them all off in short order and then was waiting around for the guy to return when he did he asked what was wrong and I just replied nothing would you like me to test these? Well he came over to have a look see and his only comment to the Boss of the place was "That's better that what I can do" after that it was just going through the motions as I knew I'd blown it. I got the usual over qualified bit which I most certainly was and the fact that they wanted someone there long term and that I would get bored with the job and move on to other things.
It didn't matter in the slightest that it was exactly what I wanted to do and escape any responsibility and I didn't even mention my education status as they didn't ask and I was a bit vague about my past jobs as to the actual position that I held and the type of work that I was doing there I just said Tech at so & so and left it at that.
As it turned out I got a bright idea of working for myself "BIG MISTAKE" that one was and that was the only job that I've ever applied for. I still get a few head hunters calling me to work at some place but they are now getting fewer and fewer as I really am not interested in doing that type of work again and finally I think that the business concerned are waking up to the fact.
Maybe it wouldn't be such a bad idea returning to that work as I would at least have the illusion of Holidays and Sick Leave but I really hated having to constantly have a suit case packed and not knowing where I would be at the end of each day or waking up in some strange motel room and taking a few seconds to remember where I actually was.
Here we get 4 weeks PA holidays and when I left the last place I was owed 6 months in holiday pay which is quite illegal but I really never had the time available to take the holidays as there was always something cropping up. One of the places just paid me for 4 weeks holiday per year on top of my salary while I kept working. It at least saved them the tiresome problems of constantly having me show up on their books as being overdue for holidays and then some one from HR coming down insisting that I take my leave while we had deadlines to meet or more importantly customers who required service/repair work at the drop of a hat.
The guy that wouldn't employ me I meet several years latter when I was called in to do their new network and he was shocked to learn that it was me who he had heard so much about and he just told me that I wouldn't have lasted there as I would have been too bored. :(
If only he knew the truth. :D
So if you want to have a go at electronics again don't appear to be too good as that is even worse then being bad as they can always train you up to their requirements but they'll never stand a chance of training you down to their level. While I was installing the new network I even suggested some improvements that could be brought into production to improve reliability as well as cutting costs and it was then that the guy learned that I had a PhD in Electronic Engineering. Instead of struggling with their constant problems I just may have been able to help them out and save them quite a lot of both money and wasted time. :p
Col ]:)
by hal 9000
The males by age 45 + are boring old farts and there are a lot of us but women in this age group are very rare and well almost nonexistent as they generally where encouraged into other areas when they where younger so they are very few and far between.
While I've personally worked with a lot of women in the days when I worked big business I've never actually run across one my age they have all been quite a lot younger than me anyway so you would have it even harder.
On the other side of the coin though I've found women to be generally far better at multitasking as their brains work differently to the mens no slur or anything like that just an observation over quite a few years of experience just as I was walking away from punching code the women where making inroads into the field and honestly they seemed capable of doing more {tasks} that is in the same time as the men who generally locked themselves away until they finished what they where doing and you interrupted them on pain of death, the women on the other hand just seemed capable of talking to you while they continued punching code.
I never did get to understand how they did this but honestly by that time I was so feed-up with that entire side of the business I couldn't get out fast enough it was only supposed to be a part time job for a few weeks and 4 years latter and department manager I was running away as fast as my little legs could carry me. Give me hardware any day of the week and I'll be happy but I'll admit that a lot of the Sys Admins that I see now days are female and they seem to love the work.
Col ]:)
by trl
> I consider this more of a "Good Will" thing and
> only charge minimal costs to fix up the messes
> rather than our standard hourly rate.
Hal 9000 --
Doing the "Good Will" thing is smart business, but never, ever reduce your rate. Instead, bill fewer hours than you actually work, all the way down to zero when you're acknowledging a real foul-up.
Then hand your manager a timesheet with "billable" and "marketing" and "rework" hours on it, just to keep track for yourself of what you're doing.
There's a book I highly recommend: "Managing the Professional Service Firm" by David H. Maister
best,
t
by hal 9000
That would be a bit hard to do but I do keep a record of the time spent on these jobs and on occasions I've been known only to charge $100.00 AU per day but these have been on real mess ups.
One job that I was called in to do was to fit a CD ROM and I did suggest a DVD ROM instead as there is only a very small difference in price and the DVD was the better option. Well I quoted for the part the labor all 15 minutes of it and spent 4 weeks fixing up the mess.
Not even the network cables where fitted to the walls just hanging out on CAT5E cable. The DSL Internet connection which was setup by a so called professional consisted of a DSL Modem connected to a hub no router to be seen and the only way that they could pass files between different computers was to e-mail them. There was no software other than Windows on any of the computers except the managers unit which had MYOB but only because they already had a copy of it and the best thing is I was asked to see why the spell checker wasn't working in the Word Processor which turned out to be Notepad which they had been told was a fully featured WP. ;)
Just thinking about it gives me goose bumps with all the wasted time there. It should never have happened but that is how some of the so called "Professionals" work all the way down to selling 2 monitors for one computer with no way of fitting the second monitor, the sellers excuse was that they didn't realize that they wanted to use both the monitors at the same time he thought that they just wanted to plug and unplug them as required one being a 17" CRT the the other was a 15" TFT. Doesn't everyone buy 2 monitors per computer just to have one as a spare? :D
Now this was really a "Small Business" with only 6 computers and the Internet connection but all of that hardware cost them 40K and all without any software. And just to make things even better it was all cheap junk and the guy who had pulled the cables for the network had just fitted plugs and made sure that there was an Internet connection available to every computer and then left the place saying "I'll be back soon" well 4 or 6 weeks latter when I was called in he hadn't even rung them to tell them what was going on and then just as I finished everything he walked in and demanded to know what it was that I thought I was doing and he then approached the owner and asked why they didn't ask him to supply the software. :)
But what was even better was his continued insistence that they didn't need any AV products installed as the modem would stop any viruses. :D Even though that had already been taken down and lost weeks of product time.
Maybe he knew a lot more than I did or as I believe he was just trying to rip them off even more. I could have supplied the hardware to a much better quality and with all the software that they needed for less than half of what they paid for the rubbish and still have made a profit. As well as pull the cable and fit it properly. Which when I looked at the building wasn't even necessary.
The main reason that they called me in was because they got an infection and had to do a complete reload and the unit that I fitted the DVD to didn't have any way to use the "OEM CD" that came with the network. Of course every copy of Windows was a Pirate copy as well so I didn't hesitate to report this to M$ and they got new OEM copies of Windows for helping M$ to close this guy down well at least stop him from continuing along on his merry way.
The whole idea of buying a complete network is to have a standard set of hardware as a base and tailor the individual units as required instead they got a mis mash of different everything and no hardware drivers with any of the boxes. The only hardware driver disk that I could find was for the TFT monitor and I really think that was an oversight on his part as well. All they had in the way of software was one recorded Windows XP Pro CD and the TFT monitor disk. But every box had a COA on it even if they where very badly made copies and all with the same product key they didn't even look like the real thing.
Of course I got a very friendly reception when I walked in as their first reaction was how much are you going to attempt to take off us to do this little job?
They where a lot less than friendly when I first got there and I just fitted the drive and after I was preparing to leave I was asked to have a look at the rest of the thing for an opinion.
Well they where up and running for 3 weeks before they got taken down by a virus and even in that short time that had run up a bill from their ISP well into the 3 figure mark owing to the amount of data that was being transfered across the Internet. And what was worse is this was how they where told things should work.
I really can not stand to see things like this happen and it gets me mad as people like this only make it that much harder for the rest of us who do the right thing by our customers. They seem to consider them as a cash cow with an endless supply of funds to keep them occupied and these business are at their mercy because they know no better and even think that they are getting a great deal which they are but just not for them but the guy providing the so called service. On the invoice he had charged them for the installation of the CAT5E cable on 4 different occasions and every time they where under different headings as well as different prices and what made it even worse is that when they moved in the whole place was already wired.
No I can not go on it's getting to me just thinking about the whole thing the only good thing to come out of it all was I now have a customer for life and I did get some small satisfaction when I got a M$ Infringement Alert mentioning the company who supplied this mess and the out of court settlement that they where forced to agree to.
The customer got a fixed invoice and the real time spent was entered down in my books and listed under "Good Will." The real problem here is that I really can not reduce my rates as that gets the Tax Man interested {which means an audit} but I can reduce the number of hours shown on an invoice and charge it out at installation rates rather then consulting rates. But that is about the only way around the problem. On that job I settled for a flat $100.00 per day and they where happy with the amount that I was charging them as in all honesty it would have been cheaper to pull the lot out bin it all and start again from scratch if I charged them the correct amount for the consulting service. I really could have made far more money by fixing the mess up that what it originally cost which is really what should have happened. But of course they would have gone broke a long time before I ever got paid as by the time I got involved they had already been unable to work for at least 2 weeks. They where reloading the boxes themselves and having no success. But at least the "Volume License" copy of XP worked with the provided product keys. :D
Col ]:)
by l squared
Robb,
Maybe things a different over there, and now. My experience was that it was even worse for EE's over 45.
by techrepublic
I'm working on a paper write now, in the spirit of David Isen's "Rise of the Stupid Network" ( www.isen.com ).
Basically, IT needs to be split into two separate streams.
1) Infrustructure
2) Consulting Services
Highly technical people, especially ones with experience, would be in high demand in both, but for different reasons.
Right now, with IT clammering for a voice in the Executive Suite (via CIO / CTO) technical people are getting side-tracked by corporate issues NOT IT centric in nature. And application developers are getting side-tracked into technical Issues, not necessarily Business centric in nature.
I aim to correct that, which has a big upside for all three parties...
1) IT Professionals
2) Younger gung ho Graduates
3) Business everywhere
openplanit@datapaper.com to discuss further and/or participate (web site not up yet)
by techrepublic
well, never got chance to reply.
At this admitteldy early stage things seem to be going OK. Working on putting a training course on MSSQL this week. Got fetched in as an experienced SQL Server guy in development, so now a training skeleton, so they can ask me intelligent questions when mentoring.
by rhenrys
I left a good paying job to care for my ill mom. I was out of work for four years. At the ripe old age of 47 I found myself in 2003 looking for a job. Do you have any idea how tough it was to obtain a position after the dot-com bubble?
How about being over the age of 45 and looking for a job in 2003.
I was very fortunate to get a job at my age.
Most have not been so fortunate.
Don't assume that at a particular person's age, that they should be at a certain "place" in their career. There are too many factors involved.
rhs
by dr dij
what if a place prefers 'older, more experienced' workers? I've seen alot of this in other posts, '
how do I get experience if I have none, blah, blah, blah'...
Isn't this ALSO DISCRIMINATION?
And isn't it a companies right to want
A) a worker who won't keel over dead soon, & doesn't smell funny,
--or--
B) an experienced person who doesn't lie on their resume or think they know everything when they don't even know what they don't know :) ?
If it works both ways, maybe we'll be forced to hire teenagers or out of work hobos to work on our websites (wait, from the quality of many, I think we've already done this)
(I know there are laws in some countries like US about age discrimination)
by spm_in_sv
When I said that I am the only one with MS degree, I was actually referring to it as a possible reverse discrimination. Not suggesting that others do not know anything. So not only that I am a woman but also with formal education dealing with 'self made IT guys'!
Thanks for all the replies.
by techrepublic
by carterdn
by maeseralf
Interesting! Interesting enough!
I teach to unemployed people, or to improve the skills of those who are employed, and the problem also arises to me.
Some years ago, thinking about the education degrading in the modern full-tech-developped societies, I realliced that only people older than 40, skilled, trained and experienced, should be abled to teach to younger people.
Get my answer as supposing it is commited to show how the young should take care about their real capabilities, and not as a deny!
Thanks, thanks and a lot of thanks for being brave enough to perform this way. The modern global-society should debate seriously about the wrong proud of companies to be young sized. Were have the company's culture gone? Once, a mid-sized company commited to technology market, here in Spain, stated as a proud that the mean age of their staff was under 30. And the company itself was 60 years old!
Please, stay on this way. I?m 47 and a half, and I've been on the technology field from the first of the eighties, more than 25 years ago. My first contact with IT was the venerable C/PM, and the S-100 bus around the Z-80, and now I'm teaching Windows XP, and Office XP, and Internet, and TCP, and Linus...
I belive you wander with me: Is there any age limit to Learn?
Best regards:
Ralph Mikel's
by maeseralf
Hi SJunkie!
I?ve read your post just now, and I like it so much as I've keep a copy in my desk, to show it to all those people that deals about a self-job. For me the story is like yours one, and I can't belive to get working for a thirth person any-time.
Best regards!
Ralph Mikel's
by gary.woodman
> Right at the moment Darwin is screaming out for a
> lot of trained staff not necessarily in the IT
> sector but a lot of people either have not got the
> qualifications or have just been head hunted and
> moved away to bigger cities further south. It's
> worth a look at the very least.
I endorse this comment! I worked in Darwin for 13 years (even had my own IT consulting business), and it is a very interesting place to be. On the edge of nowhere, but powerfully interesting. At age 54, I'm about to be made redundant, and I'm seriously considering going back there.
by gary.woodman
> And the salaries they command? Try being out of
> a job for a couple of years at age 50, and see
> how much YOU bid up your salary.
Yeah, I thought "command" was a good verb, for sure, for sure. "Plead diplomatically" would be closer to the mark, at least in my case.
> Older employees probably gravitate to IT admin
> jobs because they're sick of dealing with the
... the crap; there's plenty in any organisation, corporate, small business, public sector, even working for oneself (as Col so colourfully describes). This older employee (age 54, spent 35 years in the industry TODAY!) gravitated to the technical side pretty quickly, and stayed there. Of course that means that nearly everything I ever learned is now obsolete; lucky I'm an enthusiast as well as a dour old fart. Things change even in garbage collection and (dare I say it) sales, marketing, and HR; stagnation is not the future.
by gary.woodman
> "Are you sure you're going to live long enough to finish this project?"
"Listen sonny (young man/woman), I've been analysing/coding/administering/troubleshooting longer than you've been alive, and I'll still be doing it when you've flown off to your next pie-in-the-sky."
It worked fine; I *didn't* get a job at this dreadful place!
Gary
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