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Annon went too far?

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I was thinking about the recent action of the group 'Annonymous'; breaking into Sarah Palins email, to be precise. First of all, I'd like to underline that I support the Democratic party and I think that Palin together with McCain, residing the White House, would be nothing but disastrous. I'm not so fond of Scientology, either. This dislike for the church, together with cool V for Vendetta masks, made me fond of Annonymous. However, I always took Annon as a happy bunch raising awerness about Scientology and bringing the intenrentz on the unlucky bystanders. Why did they get political? This could do nothing but alienate them from the public and anger a few people. I'd like to think that Anon is still disorganized and everyone that feels like wearing the V mask is cool, can claim to be a member of the group, but how do I tell the truth?

Anyway, what's your opinion on the Anonnymous?

91 replies

by tig2

Why do you assume that the individual (who has been
named and is not anonymous) that cracked Sarah Palin's
email and the group that anonymously protests
Scientology are the same?

Have a look at this recent blog by our Security host, Chad
Perrin. You can find it here: https://www.techrepublic.com.com/5208-12846-0.html?
forumID=102&threadID=274627 It is way too easy to
assume that an action taken anonymously is all directed
from the same movement. As Chad points out in his
blog, the simple answer is not always the correct one.

Good on you for asking the question. Too many people
make an assumption and don't bother to dig deeper.

NOTE- My browser has a tendency to chop URLs. Just cut
and paste both lines into your browser for the citation.

by tig2

When I am using Safari, the URLs always get split. Never
happens in Firefox but I don't always use Firefox.

I need to remember to open a TinyURL tab when I am playing
in the forum.

by gate keeper

In as far as proving that she in fact use her private email account to conduct state business.

If you have been closely following the group called Anonymous that is exactly what they have been doing in the past ... exposing corruption.

The inclusion of personal details such as the telephone number for her daughter and family pictures was over the top and turned a potential legitimate exposure into a farce and in that respect did go too far.

by charliespencer

"she in fact use her private email account to conduct state business."

Then the proper response is to contact the Alaska attorney general. It isn't to hack the account and start posting the contents.

Why does everyone assume the posted contents are authentic? If I can hack an account, I can certainly fake the e-mail in it.

by gate keeper

If they exposure was limited to communications between state officials using private email accounts to circumvent the possibility of a subpoena then YES !

but posting private & family information was absolutely wrong.

Whether the individual was affiliated with the group called anonymous or the phenomenon called anonymous ..This is The whole idea behind the existance of wiki-leak.

and they should have been responsible enough to remove content irrelevant to the alleged corruption taking place i.e private family details.

by netman1958

So if the police BELIEVE that you have illegal drugs in your house, it's ok for them to just barge in and search your house without a search warrant? You would be ok with that?

by gate keeper

lets separate two things here.

1- Illegal activity by a public official.
2- Private information irrelevant to the alleged activity.

The first part falls under whistle blowing and serves a legitimate public interest. I don't know about the states, but there are many countries in the world in which that, it is not feasible for you to bring attention to yourself with that kind of information.

If they confined their exposure to aspects related to the alleged activity I agree 100%.

but involving private family details turned a potentially legitimate concern into an invasion of privacy (which i do not agree with)

by jdclyde

it was a single punk kid that thought he could do anything because his daddy has protected him with his position up till now.

To give this punk the association with "anonymous" is an insult to them, as they would not have been stupid enough to commit a felony and make it so easy to track back to him.

One had/has nothing to do with the other.

by tonythetiger

The posted emails seemed to have been inconsequential chit-chat... not "State Business" nor "corruption". Where did you get your information?

by charliespencer

please see the web log post by Chad Perrin, our resident Security Blog host.

http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/security/?p=598

In short, not everyone who calls himself 'anonymous' is affiliated with the loose group calling themselves 'anonymous'. That's one of the disadvantages of hiding behind anonymity.

An admiration for a mask is pretty lousy reason to ascribe to someone's philosophy. If that's one of your motivations, the KKK has those really cool pointy hoods.

by locrian_lyric

New York City has a law against protesting in disguise, as some imported protesters found out back in 2004.

by w2ktechman

that anyone can call themselves anonymous, and take blame for whatever. Some that call themselves this may be decent people, some may not. Some may have restraint and discipline, some may be hoolagans.
You just never know, and since anyone can call themselves part of anonymous, this is a problem.
The anonimisity of anonymous (group), and lack of structure are it's biggest downfall. However acting anonymously is one of its biggest boons.

For more to discuss, TiggerTwo has a couple of year old discussions, and Chad Perrin has a current one.

by jmgarvin

One guy did this and claimed to be part of anonymous. As others have pointed out pleased read Chad's blog on this.

by charliespencer

This is why I cringe when I hear some justify using torture and imprisonment without appeal because those opposed to the US do it. How can it be wrong for them but okay for us to engage in these activities?

I'm naive enough to still believe this country should be able to hold itself up as an example of what a country can be when it's ruled by laws, not men. Many of our current policies make it difficult for us to do that.

by gate keeper

This was wrong, no argument there.

where we differ is WHY it was wrong.

The only reason this was wrong is because they posted personal information not related to the alleged illegal activity.

While you maintain, that regardless of what the governor is doing .. hacking her email account is wrong.

Given the fact that the alleged illegal activity is minor (using private account to conduct state business)... when exposing information that serves the public interest , or are you against the whole whistle-blowing concept ?

where do you draw the line ?

I am extrapolating here, but in my native country even today ... this is the only way to expose corruption .. because it is prohibitive for an individual to confront a powerful public official. This might not be the case in America, but you will always have someone a bit too powerful to be taken head-on.

My argument is not for private individuals ,this is only for public officials or people in the position of public trusts .. who's actions affect alot of people.

by jamesrl

Invading someone's email, without a warrant, is illegal and thats where I draw the line.

If there is sufficient evidence that the official is committing an offense, then it should be reported to the authorities and investigated. If there is enough evidence the investigator can get a warrant.

Are you suggesting that public officials are second class citizens who should not have the same rights to privacy as others? If that were so, then you'd get a lot fewer people lining up to be candidates.

I do not care how noble the cause, hacking an email account is not legal, or moral.

One more thing, by hacking it and publicly exposing it, if there were damning information in an email, it likely would no longer be admissable in court, as once hacked, its difficult to prove that it was the official sending the information. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

James

by charliespencer

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

In short, if the authorities want to search something, they need a warrant from the applicable court granting permission. If you're not a law enforcement agent with a warrant, what you're doing is illegal, just as illegal as what you're trying to expose. Evidence obtained without a warrant by either law enforcement or third parties cannot be used in a trial. This applies whether the evidence is directed against a private individual, a public official, or a corporation, regardless of the size or severity of the crime

Two wrongs CAN'T make a right. Just because you believe someone should be taken down doesn't give you the right to do it. Say all the accused cracker did was publish the state related e-mails, with not personal or family information disclosed. I understand you to be saying this is justified because it turned out Palin was breaking the law. If nothing illegal had been found, would cracking the account still have been justified just because she's a public official? Can the discovery of illegal activity be used to justify other violations of the law if directed at the official? If I find she's covering up bribes, am I justified in shooting her?

Where do YOU draw the line?

Edited to add additional content. Original title changed to make room the 'EDITED' flag.

by tonythetiger

[i]The only reason this was wrong is because they posted personal information not related to the alleged illegal activity.[/i]

What illegal activity was alleged? Who alleged it? Who did they allege it to? Where is the probable cause to suggest that evidence of illegal activity would be found in that email account? What judge signed the search warrant?

How did you know the account was even hers (prior to breaking in)? (By the way, I just created an account named SarahPalinGovernor@yahoo.com. Do you think you have the right to break into it?)

Performing a search going against the principles described in our fourth amendment in the old days have been called a witch-hunt. They were made illegal in England before this country even existed because such searches were nearly always WRONG, just as this break-in proved!

You can't violate someone's personal effects just because you think there might be something wrong going on. The person who did this should be criminally prosecuted, and if found guilty, punished with the maximum possible sentence, and publish the sentence prominently as a example to others who are thinking of doing the same thing.

by charliespencer

is it permissible to break in to her home and rummage through her desk? It's her personal house and furniture, and I don't know in advance that there's actually anything state related in there, but if I find something that makes it okay? Say, she might discuss policy in the living room; let's bug it! And her home phone too! Someone sent state-related mail to her house instead of the office; let's start opening her mail.

Sorry, doesn't hold water.

by tonythetiger

breaking into [b]anything[/b] that does not belong to you should bring high criminal penalties. The fact that the lock on my back door was easy for you to pick does not mitigate in any way the crime you committed by entering.

by charliespencer

The cracker in question doesn't live on the other side of the world; he lives in Tennessee. Just because some don't have functional legal protections and have no safe options to expose illegality doesn't justify someone doing it in a country with legal protections for whistleblowers. This person had no reason to fear for his life and no excuse not to approach the authorities if he suspected something was wrong.

If people in the refugee camps drink feces-contaminated water because it's all they can get, are you going to drink it? They don't have an option.

by jmgarvin

It's awful that we torture our prisoners and hold them without habius corpus, but then complain about other countries doing the same...

We need to be the paragon of virtue, not the do and I say not as I do crowd...

by locrian_lyric

What happened to the German Saboteurs in WWII?

Foreign spies have never in our history (or the history of most other nations) gotten civil process.

It is lunacy to suggest they should.

by jmgarvin

this hearkens back to the days of the Red Scare. You claim they are spies, but do they really fit as spies? Are they combatants? Are they terrorists? Are they "freedom fighters?" What are they?

I suggest we NOT torture them and that we maybe, just maybe think about what we are going to do with them...we can't live them in Cuba forever.

by gate keeper

Everyone hates terrorists but .. gross exaggeration dilutes the message.

1- fighters captured on foreign soil .. are NOT spies.

2- They were not involved in war-crimes.

-------------------------

Unless you have people in Gitmo who were caught within the borders of the united states .. attempting to gain access to confidential information ... they are not spies.

As the American government has said ... these people were captured from a battle field in Afghanistan... fighting American forces .. by what stretch of imagination is that war crimes ?

I'm of course assuming you do not buy into the fairy tale that all 1000 in-mates of Gitmo had a direct hand in 9-11 ?

by jdclyde

to compare the worst stories of "our" treat of prisoners to the normal treatment the terrorists give their captives.

I must have missed where we behead captives, or burn the bodies and either hang them from a bridge or drag them through the streets.

That is like comparing losing at rock-paper-scissors to losing in the UFC ring. It is not based in reality.

by jamesrl

The fact that the enemies do worse, doesn't make it right.

If you think waterboarding is ok for the US to do, then you should be ok for other countries to do the same. So if you are in Saudi on business and someone slips an ounce of (fill in the blank drug) into your backpack, it should be fine to be waterboarded by Saudi police.

James

by locrian_lyric

We give Al Qaeda 100 prisoners for every one of our guys they have.

That way, we will be able to give them....

NOBODY.

by locrian_lyric

My problem with the whole torture issue is that the term has been defined so broadly as it is irrelevant.

I know someone who was tortured, he was crippled by it, and his right arm hangs lifeless on his body. He also has scars and burn-marks all over his body.

THAT is torture.

Keeping someone awake for a few days straight, or waterboarding them is not.

And, if it got to the point where we knew a nuke was hidden, but not where, and we had someone who did know....

I wouldn't feel bad if that individual had a very bad day if it meant that lives would be saved.

Sorry, the life of a maniac who wants to kill because his idea of GOD tells him so isn't worth much to me.

by charliespencer

"if it got to the point where we knew a nuke was hidden, but not where, and we had someone who did know..."

Would you be justified in cracking his e-mail account without a warrant? If so, is cracking Palin's? Again, where's the line?

by locrian_lyric

BUT...

There are CLEAR lines of demarcation.

1)Palin is a private citizen of the USA
2)A spy, saboteur or terrorist, especially a foreign agent, is not now nor has ever been afforded those protections.

by gate keeper

Bush, who believes he gets memo`s from God telling him to invade Iraq ?

or palin who believes invading iraq was a mission of God

by jamesrl

Sleep deprivation may or may not be torture, depending on how its used.

Waterboarding will never be anything less than torture in my mind. Ask McCain, he was tortured, and he has stated that waterboarding is torture.

James

by locrian_lyric

It may be abusive, it may be nasty, and not something I'd care to experience, but I'd take that over what a man I know who WAS tortured went through.

It is not torture.

by jmgarvin

Water boarding IS torture, plain and simple. The fact that you think it is not is mind boggling.

by locrian_lyric

The USA used waterboarding on Khalid Mohammed, the mastermind of 9/11, and he sang like a canary afterwards.

Water boarding worked.

So, EITHER you are incorrect in your statement that torture doesn't work, or water boarding isn't torture.

BTW, for THAT SOB, they should have brought out the molten lead and funnel.

by jamesrl

...but I have quite extensive conservative credentials.

...I've worked for the Conservative party, both paid and volunteer, before during and after elections.

...I've been to a Republican convention.

...I've written "conservative" pieces for my university newspaper, and letters to the editors of various newpapers.

There have been many occasions here where I've agreed with Max, and disagreed with Oz.

James

by jamesrl

....is a martyr and a gift for any terrorist recruiter, whether the prisoner were guilty of anything or not.

And most of those in Gitmo were captured in Afghanistan, where they were allied with the previous Taliban government in a war against the American led coalition and Afghan warlords. They were not spies. Most of them were footsoldiers.

James

by jdclyde

we have to be careful not to hurt their little feelings?

Sleep deprivation, uncomfortable conditions (heat/cold), and worse of all, making them listen to rap "music". All very fitting means of extracting information.

People picked up on the battlefield are not innocent until proven guilty, they are POW's, and SHOULD be subject to military law (within the guides of Geneva), but NOT handed over to civilian courts. War crimes are not the same as criminal law.

Water boarding, only in the most extreme of cases.

I would bet, water boarding would be easy on you compared to what would happen to an American caught with narcotics by the Saudi's.

by locrian_lyric

They're such misunderstood little darlings, you shouldn't mind.

Now, here's something about the Red Scare.

The KGB released files in the 1990s that said, in effect McCarthy was RIGHT.

It's not a 'scare' if it's real.

by jamesrl

The terrorists themselves don't care at all how the US treats its prisoners, except for the considerable propoganda value they get out of Abu Ghraib and Gitmo.

The audience is the rest of the world. If you decide that its ok to torture, you have just climbed down from any ability to claim the moral high ground. You risk alientating your allies, you prevent neutrals from joining you, and you push some who may have been on the fence to the other side.

That and study after study shows torture is not reliable.

What happens in Gitmo is NOT ok by the Geneva convention.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/02/08/national/main3807334.shtml

"Despite U.S. and international laws which recognize waterboarding as torture - a technique which dates back at least to the Spanish Inquisition, and for which U.S. courts have obtained convictions as a war crime - CIA Director Michael Hayden said the use of waterboarding by the U.S. was legal in 2002 and 2003 because a Justice Department lawyer signed a secret legal opinion claiming terror detainees were not protected by the Geneva Convention's ban on torture. "

So US courts have convicted people of the war crime of using waterboarding - were they wrong?

Tom Ridge former head of Homeland Security and a former soldier, thinks waterboarding is torture as does Mike McConnell, director of National Intelligence.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22735168/

James

by charliespencer

And let them fend for themselves instead of staying in better conditions than many of our servicemen and women?

If we can't turn them loose because they're a threat, then bring them to trial. If there's not enough evidence to try them, ship them out. One or the other.

by jamesrl

My thinking is based on my concepts of individual rights, the golden rule, and Matthew 5:38-42, as well as my knowledge of history and politics.

Edited to add:
Also been influenced by the opinions of my father in law, a retired colonel who was subjected to everything short of torture in an escape and evade course conducted by US SF. He did some intelligence work in his day. And he is the farthest thing from a bleeding heart you will ever find.

James

by charliespencer

the level of dialog is superior to that over on apotheon's 'anonymous' discussion. I suspect that isn't due to the subject matter as to the participants. Despite the mention of 'anonymous', this one doesn't seem to be attracting the cyber-buzzards sniffing the web for fresh mentions of their carrion of choice. No personal name calling, no pointless accusations. Good job people, even the ones I disagree with.

by jmgarvin

Ok, you are right...This is a civil discussion, but in the other thread...yikes...It's getting a little creepy over there....

by netman1958

I've been keeping up with that thread since it started and I would swear that everyone was talking in tongues. I know about COS but I'd never heard of these groups that called themselves "anonymous". It's a very scary world out there.

by the scummy one

but then again, Palmetto seems to beat me to any of the good ones. And since he has been sane, and a bit amusing at times, I just butt out of it for now.

I suspect that it aint gonna get better either. Maybe Scummy will have to smack down on someone :^0

by jdclyde

Has already shown they are more interested in anything that would make the US look bad, while completely (conveniently) ignoring the atrocities committed by the enemies of the civilized world.

We hear people saying that the US brought it on themselves, and should be nicer to the savage nations of the world.

I am all in favor of the US stopping being both the world police as well as the world welfare office. Even before the economy turned south, we should not have been wasting the time in other nations while our own back yard is out of sorts.

I have the same attitude towards the self-hating liberals here in the States, that run around telling the world how bad the US is.

That the people in the middle East want Obama to be president is a good indicator of there being something terribly wrong in Denmark.

by tonythetiger

gives the authorities limited permission to do something which would otherwise be illegal. Illegal is illegal, no matter who does it.

The fourth amendment does not specify that our right to be secure against unreasonable searches and seizures is limited only to those performed by the authorities.

by jmgarvin

If they are not, send them home.

The Red Scare was far more than what the KGB released, it turned into a witch hunt. Which is exactly where we are at right now.

by ontheropes

I won't be going back.

I kind of wish I'd tried to stay with it from the start but right now I'm thinking there's no point to it. The TR noobs remind me of kids playing with big words, big ideas.

by charliespencer

They're all so self-important, on both sides of the issue, that I can't resist deflating them. Like boxy said, it's like watching a slo-mo train wreck: you can't look away. Truly Theater of the Absurd.

by charliespencer

to start a new discussion on their own. Their participation in the groups they support indicates they're followers by nature. They can "Me, too!" with the best, but don't wait on them to have an original thought. They're dependent on their respective "collectives", which have much more in common that either side will admit.

by locrian_lyric

There is no requirement for a FORMAL declaration of war, just the authorization to use force and the allocation of funds.

by jmgarvin

but that seems too me too ;-)

Actually, I think you got it. I couldn't quite put my finger on it, but you nailed it. It's the me too syndrome in full effect. Good times....

by ontheropes

Information gathered by torturing is suspect. What wouldn't you confess to if you're being tortured?

by oz_media

And that's about it.

I agree with you wholly on this one, James.

I do have to ask though, if there is corruption in the government (sorry, I don't really mean [i]IF[/i]) then won't a corrupt official be the one to 'investigate' the matter?

Would be nice if there was actually a trusted, independent third party to do so.

How about Canadian forced investigating US government corruption (and vice versa of course).

Except all it is is a third party report, the punishment if any is entirely up to the country in question, not the investigator.

This would also expose corruption within teh ranks. If teh public sees and knows of the corruption, its a bit harder for a crooked government to simply get away with a slap on the wrist.

I actually liked the way that our multi part system allows one to act as a watchdog, as they are only just too happy to expose the other party's corruption, as we have seen before.

But it is not just political posturing and cammpaign lies it is actually exposed corruption.

The people need to be back in control and must be aware that even while most people give up and HATE the government and politics in general, we should still be holding them accountable.

by locrian_lyric

But the information he spewed out after that bit was confirmed, and led to us dismantling much of Al Qaeda.

At this point, forget information from him, torture him just for fun.

by oz_media

Even he has been amused by my more right leaning ideals. I certainly lean farther right than left, especially in Canada where our left is a ridiculous group of bleeding hearts with one or two real people working on realistic 'green' issues.

Max and I have rather have similar conservative views, as far as personal responsibility for your career and life. We disagree on the necessity of SOME social programs.

We agree on music, we agree on employment (I guess that's personal responsibility) but we disagree on politics in many areas too.

I think we would be more closely aligned if I was American though. While I hate Bush, I also don't like the US left wing at all. I don't mind Obama, especially over Palin (noting she is the actual Republican candidate everyone wants to hear from, not McCain) and I don't even mind MOST of what McCain says but I don't trust or buy into Palin's BS at all. She has become the one to hear though, all the focus has been conveniently shifted towards Palin and not McCain.

People say shes a bit of a looker but all I see is Peggy Hill, a backward American blinded by pariotism and not able to see reality for what it is. Now roll those R's and seem global/multilingual.

In this US election, I'd vote Obama but I don't really support the left wing whining by followers. While I don't support the party wholly, I do support the candidate.

With the right wing I support much of the party but I don' tsupport many of the people. That whole extreme right thing just doesn't appeal to me, just liek the extreme left. I just think they should be less radical on both sides and let their middle ground converge so that the individual issues be debated for public scrutiny.

Definitely a much better election than Bush/Gore or Bush/Kerry!

The days are ticking away though, Bush will no longer be leader of the free world soon and we can all get back to living our lives again.

Ding dong, the witch is dead!
Which old witch?
The WICKED witch!

by oz_media

That ammendment is not so black and white, just like Free Speech, it is not absolute.

There are MANY cases today where a warrant is NOT needed for search and seizure, in the US anyway.

by oz_media

Congress officially approved extended miltary engagement, short of Declaring War.

[i]For the United States, Article One, Section Eight of the Constitution says "Congress shall have power to ... declare War;" however, that passage provides no specific format for what form legislation text must have to be considered a "Declaration of War" nor does the Constitution itself use this term. Many have postulated "Declaration(s) of War" must contain that phrase as or within the title. Many oppose that reasoning."

" Despite the constitutional requirement that Congress declare war, in practice, formal Declarations of War have occurred only upon prior request by the President. And contrary to the popular opinion that the framers of the Constitution intended that the President cannot engage in war without an act of Congress, in fact the framers chose the final wording with the intent of "leaving to the Executive the power to repel sudden attacks" without the explicit approval of Congress.[1] However, debate continues as to the legal extent of the President's authority in this regard. The War Powers Resolution of 1973 (Pub.L. 93-148) limits the power of the President to wage war without the approval of the Congress. The United States of America has formally declared war against foreign nations five separate times."[/i]

Here's how the US government sidestepped the constitutional issues though.
"Extremely heated debate developed in the United States beginning on or around September 11, 2001. Opponents of the uses of military force since began to argue, chiefly, that the Iraq War was unconstitutional, because it lacked a clear declaration of war, and was waged over the objection of a significantly sized demographic in the United States.

Instead of formal war declarations, the United States Congress has begun issuing authorizations of force. Such authorizations have included the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution that greatly increased American participation in the Vietnam War, and the recent "Authorization of the Use of Military Force" (AUMF) resolution that started the War in Iraq. Some question the legality of these authorizations of force. Many who support declarations of war argue that they keep administrations honest by forcing them to lay out their case to the American people while, at the same time, honoring the constitutional role of the United States Congress."

AUMF: When resolutions were being set against the weapons inspectors being tossed out of Iraq repeatedly and Saddam was being uncooprative, Bush said that he would use force (AUMF) to cokmplete the search if inspections were not allowed to continue.

Heres' what he said exactly: [i]" With this resolution, Congress has now authorized the use of force. I have not ordered the use of force. I hope the use of force will not become necessary. Yet, confronting the threat posed by Iraq is necessary, by whatever means that requires. [b]Either the Iraqi regime will give up its weapons of mass destruction, or, for the sake of peace, the United States will lead a global coalition to disarm that regime.[/b] If any doubt our nation's resolve, our determination, they would be unwise to test it. "[/i]

(a global coalition? Why did everyone else back out and request more proof of these so called WMD before following into Iraq))

In other words, if Iraq doesn't cooperate with inspections, Congress has approved for me to use the AUMF ammendment to the Constituion in order to "disarm that regime".[/i]

Here's where the BIG LIE began though.

Weapons inspectors were NOT stopped form progressing after that time. They WERE inspecting and turning up NOTHING, except a few old unusable and unused weapons.

Bush REMOVED inspectors and sent troops in to invade Iraq anyway.

So in reality it was BUSH who decided to invade Iraq, as Congress has permitted him to do, and it was BUSH who lied about imminent threats and removed inspectors to make room for an invasion, which wasn't supposed to occur IF inspectors were allowed to complete their tasks.

Saddam said he HAD destroyed weapons, as requested, Bush didn't believe him.

Saddam HAD let inspectors undergo their tasks and they were repoortedly only 6 weeks from completion, but theUS would have had no basis for an invasion if they came up empty handed. They were pulled out and troops sent in.

It is unconstutitional, it is an outright LIE by the US government and it has cost thousands of lives, both US and Iraqi as well as trillions of dollars.

Yet it is justified in so many little minds.

That is a war of crime.

by w2ktechman

WTF are you thinking?
So you are justifying torture because you believe that someone does something that you do not agree with?

So who else should be 'tortured just for fun'?

by boxfiddler Hot topic

Wow. There's a healthy concept. At its mildest, it gives us parents who think it's funny as hell to tickle their kids 'til they piss themselves, at the high end of that spectrum it brings us the Jeffrey Dahmers of the world.

by jamesrl

Some may confess, some may not, some may tell the torturer whatever they think he wants to hear.

Torture may get some truths, but how will you know. You may just as likely spend time chasing ghosts. Thats what the FBI and many military intelligence officers have said on the record.

And let me point out, that the people you torture rarely have had a trial. So you haven't proven that they are guilty, yet you are eager to torture them.

As for molten lead and funnell, how many times have I seen you complain about terrorist beheadings etc. And yet you just advocate exactly the same thing. What does that make you?

James

by ontheropes

You don't factor into my decisions anymore.

Edited- Not exactly what I wanted to say but I feel that your AS is causing you to miss the point of my previous post.

What I do want to say is that the way I think of you right now, especially after reading your post below, I seriously doubt that I'll be in your corner or interact directly with you again at TR. That is what I meant by sad. No great loss to you I know, just the way it is. Paradigm's shift.

by tonythetiger

overwhelmingly obvious, and delay would likely cause a loss or destruction of this evidence. A cop chasing a running gunman into a private home, for example, or pulling over a car with a bloody sleeve hanging out of the trunk, would not have to get a warrant to search the home or the car. The search still requires probable cause to exist to an equivalent degree to that which would be required in order to obtain a warrant.

by tonythetiger

[i]Would be nice if there was actually a trusted, independent third party to do so.[/i]

... "Who's watching the watchers?"

Not surprisingly, the closest thing to an answer is to keep the number of those who have to be watched to an absolute minimum.

by jmgarvin

There are other, far more efficient and practical methods to extract information. Social Engineering is probably the most practical and also will produce the best results. Behind that bribery and behind that boot camp type manipulations.

by oz_media

As it stands now, anyoen entering the US can have their personal notbook computer held, reviewed for content and siezed without further explanation in order for them to further investigate the contents.

They don't need a reason.

Border guards get away with anything, because they are border guards, it gets pretty tiring and has definitely reduced the number of Canadian consumers shopping in the US.

by jmgarvin

We are shooting ourselves in the foot. We are driving off tourists, killing the value of the dollar, bailing out failing companies for no reason other than to do it, and pissing on The Constitution.

I'm tired of this administration, this congress, and the piss poor leadership in the states. I've had it.

I'm serious that if whoever gets elected, if they continue down this path, I'm gone...I'm moving to Canada or Australia or the UK or somewhere but the US.

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