1? 2? 3? There Goes Another

--Where are these starving children?--

This is irrelevant to my post.

--Why is the US responsible for fixing the problem?--

Why not? Are we, or are we not, a Christian nation? According to our current right wing leadership, we are a Christian nation. Where?s the follow through? Or is Jesus just a convenient icon to drag up for votes?

--Why can't their own governments fix the problem?--

Good question. No doubt some children who are starving to death and dying of hunger related diseases would survive if their local ?governments? were better. But overall, the lack of resources undercuts many well meaning governments. Jesus? call for love, tolerance and charity cannot be satisfied with finger pointing at governments overseas.

--Why aren't you there feeding the starving children?--

This is irrelevant to my post. What I do or don?t do; what you do or don?t do; none of this one on one finger pointing addresses the hypocrisy and un-Christian behavior of the so-called Christian right and so-called compassionate conservatives.

--How can we get food to these starving children when warlords are killing relief workers?
Why are children starving while their own governments spend millions of their own war machine?
Don't countries with starving children also have many wealthy citizens?--

Three questions -- probably three more children gone. Please see above.

--And to paraphrase Sam Kineson:
"They live in a freaking desert! Why don't they move? Nothing grows in the desert! We have a desert, we don't live there! Move!"--

Would that they could. Perhaps the "Christian? and ?Islamic? nations, along with their leading loudmouth moralists, who are so good at lecturing the rest of us, will open their doors. Poor Sam ? he did have a way of cutting to the point.

find a Taliban zealot -- different rhetoric but the same narrow bigotry and intolerance.

Thanks so much for your courageous stand against religious extremism. Whenever they gain the secular power to do so, religious zealots will always try oppressing the rest of us. They never have and never will live up to the laws they claim to believe in. There's always an excuse, some direct communiqu? from the almighty that they use as a loophole for themselves. Alas, they are all too human. However, unlike the rest of us, they can't accept this simple truth and choose to hide behind a cheesecloth of bogus "faith" and self-proclaimed direct knowledge of the god of their choosing.

Live and let live is too dangerous a code for them. They?d have to learn how to live with people as they are, not how they think they should be. They?d have to learn how to deal with the world as it is, not with a tragic fantasy about paradise on earth.

with throwing money at the problem is that it removes the sense of humility that someone who is beholden to others should have. I agree with the "do it yourself" part though. Not only is it more efficient, it reinforces in the recipient the concept that life is part work!

you know me. You don't. So stop pretending. Now let?s get down to brass tacks. I applaud and admire anything you have or will do in the future to stop children from unnecessarily starving to death. I applaud and admire this type of work, whether it is done under the auspices of religion, private charity, governments, economic development agencies, private corporations, etc. Unfortunately, even with all the efforts of every person, every organization and every government trying to help, one child dies from starvation or hunger related disease every THREE seconds.

As the leader of the most ?Christian? nation on earth, the wealthiest nation, the most powerful nation, is it too much to ask our born again President to use his office and position to promote a massive effort to prevent the unnecessary starvation of an innocent child every three seconds. Remember, 1, 2, 3? another child is gone -- 1,2, 3?and another?. 1, 2, 3 one more . . .

"There ARE many Christian charities that do a lot for the poor and the starving in the world. I would venture more Christian organizations than otherwise too."

... if their members weren't taxed as much.

You know, don't you, that the welfare system wasn't created for the poor. It was created for the deadbeats!

You see, it used to be that anyone who genuinely needed help got it through the good people of their community. The deadbeats saw this as an opportunity to do less work, and they devised ways to get on the gravy train, as they saw it. The good people of the community soon caught on, and, cut the scammers scammers off. Well, not wanting to work for a living, these scammers cried to the government "Nobody will help us". and the government, taken in by the scammers, started taxing the good people. Of course, this led to the good people not having enough money to help all of the genuinely needy people, so some of them had to be turned away, and the government raised the taxes to help these people too, and, as you know, the snowball turned into an avalanche. But it was the lazy who got the ball rolling.

This needs to be put back under the control of the commmunity. Some bug-eyed bureaucrat a thousand miles away has no idea how to tell the scammer from the truly needy, but those in the person's community do! Not only that, we can provide $100 worth of real help with $100, not provide $29 worth of half-vast help for $100 the way the government does!

--William Jefferson Clinton, the "first Black president", ruled this great country for eight years.--

Watch out, your racial attitudes are showing.

--How is it there are any poor people left? Oh yeah, Democrats don't give a squat about this either??

Two wrongs don?t make a right. And they don?t excuse ?compassionate? conservatives' criminal neglect in the face of starving children.

--First thing, it is time stupid people stop breeding.--

Which book of the bible contains this commandment?

--If you can not feed a child but you plunge ahead popping them out anyways, THAT is the person responsible for the starving. --

Careful, your rather un-Christian hatred for poor people is showing.

-- Simple. Can't pay for your family, you don't have a family. --

Ok in the simplistic, black & white fantasy world of perhaps well meaning, but fatally na?ve, conservatives. Never has and never will work in the world as it really is.

--There ARE many Christian charities that do a lot for the poor and the starving in the world. I would venture more Christian organizations than otherwise too.--

And I applaud this. Unfortunately, even with all the efforts of every person, every organization and every government trying to help, one child dies from starvation or hunger related disease every THREE seconds.

As the leader of the most ?Christian? nation on earth, the wealthiest nation, the most powerful nation, is it too much to ask our born again President to use his office and position to promote a massive effort to prevent the unnecessary starvation of an innocent child every three seconds. Remember, 1, 2, 3? another child is gone -- 1,2, 3?and another?. 1, 2, 3 one more . . .

-- What are YOU doing to help the "another child blah blah blah". How many have YOU saved. How much money do YOU give. How much time do YOU donate?--

Don?t be afraid to say it: another child starves to death or dies of hunger related diseases every three seconds. 1, 2, 3 another one dead . . . . . . . . .

-- How many have YOU saved. How much money do YOU give. How much time do YOU donate? How about the Democratic party? What are THEY doing that the Republicans are not? ?

I hate to have to say it, but GET OVER YOURSELF. I?m talking about children starving to death and like a lot of your fellow travelers, your response is to point a finger at me and the Democrats. Does this make you feel more comfortable with the reality that two or three children starved to death while you were busy justifying the criminal inaction of our so-called Christian leadership? Someday you?ll realize that the world doesn?t boil down to shop-worn piety and ?free? market ideology. Until then, save your pity for the tens of millions of children who will starve to death while our ?great? nation pours hundreds of billions into the boy emperor?s Iraqi adventure, and hundreds more into a war machine that long ago knew no equal on the face of the earth. Christian, my foot!

.....the shirt off someone else's back.

There seems to be a real disconnect here. I?m talking about innocent children starving to death unnecessarily and you?re promoting the benefits of self-reliance and preaching free market ideology.

If you want to be a strict free market advocate and allow that government has no role in the economy ? that?s fine. But don?t claim to be a follower of Jesus Christ at the same time. If you want to follow Christ ? that?s also fine. But don?t ascribe sacredness to free market capitalism at the same time.

You cannot truly follow Christ and answer the suffering of children with platitudes about the inappropriateness of government action to alleviate suffering. No one can claim to be Christian in one breath and then talk of being forced to help the needy in the next.

-- New Mexico is a nanny state. I GIVE a TON of my paycheck to the state. I get very little out of it. The roads are craptastic and the services offered to me are mediocore at best. However, the reason I pay so much is because this is a nanny state. I pay for OTHERS to live off MY dime. I pay for food, shelter, medical care, etc, etc, etc, etc, for those that can't afford it. I'm FORCED to pay this. ?

What?s the matter? You don?t like nannies? Sorry, couldn?t resist. I think the problem isn?t that you are giving; the problem is that we Americans don?t force our governments to spend our money on our real needs. Instead, we get let them spend most of it on pork for corporate interests, tax breaks for the wealthiest among us, war by choice instead of necessity, unnecessary arms and a host of other nonsensical projects. And then, having been hoodwinked by a lot of rubbish about how our so-called conservatives are merely orchestrating free markets, we begrudge the relative pittance these same "conservatives" toss to the poor.

-- However, I give money to the Catholic church, which does the same things, but more efficiently. --
-- The church spends my money on food, clothing, and medical care that goes DIRECTLY to the those that need it. With the state, I'm paying for all the state workers that are overhead, along with the massive amounts of paper and equipment they buy. Not to mention the corruption at all levels.... --

Congratulations on your status as a recovering Catholic. I mean it. It?s no small feat to escape the mountain of propaganda. But don?t forget the Church?s other side. While they do spend some money on the people they feel are worthy, they also have spent, and continue to spend, a fortune on the Church itself. And since the Church does not have to pay taxes, all of us are subsidizing the Catholic Church, as well as every other organized religion practicing in the US.

-- While you rail against the Christians, you've done nothing to help. --

I?m not railing against Christians, just the hypocrites and liars who cloak themselves in the mantle of Christianity. There?s a big difference. I can?t imagine Jesus Christ being pleased with these phonies. What I can?t understand is why so many Americans who identify themselves as Christians tolerate this usurpation of their faith. If George W. Bush and the self-righteous, rightwing, religious bullies who love him are Christian, than I?m John the Baptist.

PS: Watch that talk about government being the last resort for controlling the oil companies. Pretty soon they?ll be calling you a godless, commie rat. Take care of yourself.

This was not a "well thought out" or "meaningful" discussion started by our poster. Nothing but flamebait and then sit back and enjoy that he/she got a rise out of everyone with a deliveratly stupid and inacurate "discussion".

If he/she really felt this way, he/she would be too busy over in these countries doing something to help. The stupid and lazy will always try to accuse others of not caring, while they are doing nothing to end the problem themselves.

Oh, I missed the part about supporting documents? Oh well, he/she didn't care that much either.

Everyone has their charities. I spend my efforts with the cancer society.

Maybe the Christian Republicans can write up a grant to give to the religious charities that go over there? Oh wait, that wouldn't make the poster happy either because the money was givin to a religious group to do something. Stupid people don't like that, even though it has been supported by the Supreme court. Oh, facts and reality are always such a downer to the stupid... And our poster is definately stupid.

A few dark clouds on your horizon and you're all going crazy. I'm not attacking Christians. I am attacking the liars and hypocrites who pose as Christians while they excuse and condone starvation of children at the rate of one every three seconds. When will the real Christians stand up and reclaim their faith? That's what I want to know.

epw expects government to be in the charity business. But that's not the role of government, at least it's not in the minds of people like Thomas Jefferson and me (and others, of course). What about you?

Moreover, government run charity or government run _________ (anything - fill in the blank) is about the most inefficient way to run just about anything (with a few exceptions).

Government can't give anything to anyone without first taking it from someone else. And what government gives is probably only about 25 percent of what it takes, when you factor in the waste, fraud, abuse, politics, and overhead. And in doing so, considering how much government really does take from people, it actually creates more people who, in turn, become less able to be charitable themselves, and it creates more people who become dependent on government. The numbers bear this out. For example, in the United States, people living in "poverty" (defined in a variety of ways) decreased, in both real numbers and percentages, every decade of the 20th century UNTIL the government got involved with the debacle called the [i]War on Poverty[/i], which actually resulted in a reversal of the trend, and MORE people became mired in poverty and became dependent on government.

Not only is it not the role of government in the United States, but it's counter-productive. So why do it? The ONLY reason is use it as an excuse to turn a blind-eye to a problem, and put the burden on someone else. It's NOT being charitable by expecting the government to do it. In fact, it's just the opposite. It's being mean, selfish and self-centered because it's passing the buck to someone else.

One of the reasons why government aid is ineffective, and private aid doesn't have sufficient reach is the amount of political corruption in many parts of Africa. Aid gets skimmed or outright stolen. Those in need starve while theives prosper.

I don't have a ready solution. I would propose that our governments work with other governments to find ways to reduce this corruption and theft - that could be a bigger contribution than increasing the government's donations. Private charities may be better at getting aid directly to those in need because they have feet on the ground. Governments could find ways to help them.

This is a prime example where "throwing money" at the problem doesn't work.

My family directly supports an orphanage in South Africa for aids babies. One of the congregation where my wife goes to church works there almost full time. I know evey dollar is improving the lives of some small child in Africa.

James

Please respond in the following format:

Problem:

Solution:

Not only will this make is easier to read, but far easier to understand WHAT solution you are providing to the problem...

So,
All along EPW, you actually had a hidden message, of higher meaning and purpose, buried within your trolling and baiting, and now we are all better people for it.

Naghhhhhhhh,

If you really had such a just and noble purpose, you would have just said it outright instead of being obscure.

My hats off to Amazinwriter for seeing something in you that is positive and meaningfull, but I think that speaks more about her good character then yours.

ABC hosts multiple fan, message boards for their t.v. shows. The boards are frequently assaulted by people making the same kind of statements you made. Actually, if I look far enough back, I think your 1-2-3 tirade was allready used in the Lost Plot Board.
So you are either the very same troll, or you ripped it off from somebody else then posted it here as if it was your own.

And what point would that be?

There are a lot of things in life that we become aware of and can't seem to do much about. Sometimes all we can do is feel, and express the feeling. The good thing about feelings is that they all pass in time. Compassion grows from having felt a lot.
I get those missing children pictures in my mail, as most of us do in the States. I clip them out and tape them to my desk where I can see them, and I pause and care. I recignize that I am powerless, but I care anyway. Who knows? Perhaps one day one of those kids will cross my path and I will recognize him/her.

Back in 1975 I started a company along with three other guys. Twenty years later that company employed 16,000 people. 16,000 good paying high tech jobs. That fed a lot of families. And continues to do so. The company ultimately was sold for $8.24 billion and merger into another company, but still provides employment for thousands. (I sold my interest in the company way too soon, so I didn't make much at all.)

Four kids just out of school, working at crappy jobs for little more than minimum wage so they could put money into their own start-up business provided a good life for thousands just by providing a product that people wanted.

I'm a conservative and a Christian. And I bet I've done more for other people than you.

--Not in this country. But in countries run by corrupt dictators, socialists, etc.?

Does it matter? This is irrelevant.

--Do you think this country (republicans and christians) should step in and run the rest of the world too? --

Republicans and Christians = this country? Which country do you mean? Please remember that those who identify themselves as Republicans do not even constitute a majority in the US. Also, we?d all be better off recognizing the difference between actual Christians and the impostors who claim to be Christian. These fakers apparently have confused following Jesus Christ with sophistry, greed, cowardice, hypocrisy, theft, war-mongering and yes, ignoring the unnecessary death and suffering of innocent children due to starvation and hunger related diseases.

Remember 1 2 3 ? another child needlessly dies. What would Jesus do? Blame the Democrats? Blame socialists? Throw up a ton of smoke? Attack ?sinners?? Mimic the Republicans and say anything and everything to avoid having to face the horrible consequences of their own callous greed and indifference? I don?t think so. And that my friend makes our Republican boy emperor president and his phony right wing cheerleaders nothing more than bogus ?Christians,? the kind that are only in it for the votes.

Starvation is the worst where people have the least economic and political freedom. Countries
with the least poverty/starvation have the most economic and political freedom, and are based on capitalism and usually the Judeo-Christian ethic. It works every time its tried.

Again, this misses the point. Living in a ?capitalist? country, supposedly under the influence the Judeo/Christian ethic, does not absolve us from a moral obligation to try saving the child who will needlessly starve to death when you finish this sentence. 1 2 3 ? there goes yet one more innocent victim.

just wanted those kids fattenned up so she could eat them :)

No doubt you have suffered tough times and struggled through them. No one says you haven?t or that you shouldn?t be happy at having overcome the difficulties. Yet in spite of your successes and in spite of all the efforts of all caring people, starvation takes a child?s life every three seconds of every day of every year. And all the while, our born again President does what? While real Christians help however they can, our loudmouth, sanctimonious religious zealots do what? Can any one offer an answer?

Dad just threw me in!

for the sake of the kids.

Call the goveneror, call the mayor, call your state reps.

Call the local press.

Be careful how you say what you say, because you don't want to get in trouble yourself while trying to help someone else.

My sister-in-law used to work for protective services. I will ask her for ideas on how to help and get back to you.

Wrong on all points. Care to try again?

NT

I HAVE spoken....

you have still done nothing to resolve any of the issues, or help ANYONE but yourself.

"-- The most important job of a bureaucracy is to guarantee its own survival. --

This is undoubtedly part of the psychology of any bureaucracy, but what else is new. "

why insist on government involvement?

My personal taxes feed approximately 18 needy people. If I had that money I could feed twice as many and have money left over, so supporting government involvement in charity work is sheer lunacy, unless your goal is growing the bureaucracy. Is it?

Here?s another interesting item about the boy emperor?s lies and posturing in front of the world community about the goal of eliminating starvation, hunger, disease and extreme poverty in the world. The full article by Jeffrey Sachs appears on the Financial Times at http://www.unmillenniumproject.org/documents/FinancialTimes11-07-05.pdf (All emphasis is mine.)

--?Roughly four-fifths of the $50bn increase (in aid) will come from the European Union, though Europe represents but two-fifths of the GNP of the donor countries. Notably, the pre-enlargement EU-15 have set a bold timetable to reach 0.56 per cent of GNP in aid by 2010 and the internationally agreed target of 0.7 per cent of GNP by 2015. Canada and Japan gave a nod to 0.7, but refused to commit to a timetable.
THE US DID WORSE, DENYING REPEATEDLY IN RECENT WEEKS IT HAD EVER PLEDGED 0.7, ALTHOUGH MR BUSH SIGNED ON TO THE MARCH 2002 MONTERREY CONSENSUS TO "MAKE CONCRETE EFFORTS TOWARDS THE TARGET OF 0.7 PER CENT". Instead, the US cobbled together some small programmes backed by big spin. The new US effort against malaria is welcome, but $1.2bn over five years is paltry when $3bn each year is needed to fight the disease in Africa. The US five-year effort is LESS THAN ONE DAY OF PENTAGON SPENDING, and two cents of every $1,000 of US national income.? ?

My, my, my. It seems the boy emperor is not only a liar, but a bad one at that. Why is it that serious American Christians don?t rise up and give this bad boy and his hypocrite cronies the boot they so richly deserve?

This country still gives more to the rest of the world than the other industrial nations put together.

Add in private charities and the gap gets wider.

And tell us (since you seem to blame it on one political party), what the percentage was under any democrat you care to name?

You hate George Bush.

You don't give a ret's ass about starving children. Or starving anything else. So why bring them into it at all? It is handy as a platform to tell everyone how awful you think Bush is I suppose.

Is that why you can't name anything that you have done to help? Other than same vague, obviously silly ideas that someone else should do something.

....spewing partisan rhetoric, then you must compare the foreign aid approved in the budgets under the Bush Administration to ALL past administrations. However, I'll settle for Jimmy Carter to the present.

1. Total foreign aid.

2. Foreign aid ear-marked for the hungry in Africa.

3. Foreign aid for AIDS relief, treatment, and reseach.

Both in real dollars and as a percentage of the total budget.

Show which administrations were Democrat, and which were Republican. And ESPECIALLY highlight the very "christain" Jimmy Carter administration.

Also, while you're at it, please provide the same numbers for the United Nations. And detail what they have done, and what they have ignored.

P.S. Do you realize how foolish you look?