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100,000 deaths, the reality

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by oz_media

Closed to new repliesThis discussion is closed. It stays readable, but it takes no new replies.

"On the O'Reilly Factor, retired Army Col. David Hunt said it is "confirmed," evidently from his sources, that coalition forces have killed over 100,000 Iraqi military."

"As reported in Friday?s newspapers, the estimate is being treated with considerable skepticism. The motives of the editors of The Lancet were questioned in The New York Times story (tucked away in a single column on page A8), because the study was released in a special Web version before The Lancet?s usual publication date. It is as if the Times were implying that such major news should have been held until after the election. Over at the Washington Post, a researcher for Human Rights Watch criticized the study's method by alleging that the sample was too small. HRW and some other groups have tried to count casualties by using documents, such as press reports. Those estimates have been around 17,000 Iraqi deaths."

"In the study, teams of researchers led by Dr. Les Roberts fanned out across Iraq in mid-September to interview nearly 1,000 families in 33 locations. Families were interviewed about births and deaths in the household before and after the invasion."

So in actuyality what has happened is these pople HAVE conducted an survey based on a reasonable sample when compared to sample sizes used for polls in the USA.

These deaths are NOT ALL DUE TO US ATTACKS THOUGH. These deaths include ALL deaths, the VIOLENT deaths are said to be 2.5 times higher than before the invasion and that's ALL it proves.

"Before the invasion, the most common causes of death in Iraq were heart attacks, strokes and chronic diseases. Afterward, violent death was far ahead of all other causes."

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
IN the USA rough stats:

14.1 to 1,000 child injury death index
2.2 to 1,000 die from maltreatment

152,921 due to other accidents including; MV (non-traffic), Drowning, Fire/burn, suffocation, falls, natural/environmental each year.

So I suppose including all the other hundreds of ways that children die each year, drugs, abuse, illness and natural/violent deaths, America could also dig up a similar if not far greater number on thier own child population deaths. AND THAT'S JUST CHILDREN!

The issue is that the 100,000 total taken from Iraq is NOT attributable to the Iraqi invasion, they may well have had 100,000 deaths, but this is only said to be a 2.5% increase in violent deaths due to the nature of the fight in Iraq.

Take your stats and look into them next time instead of wasting everyone's time for days on end and then proving that you had a knee jerk reaction and did not qualify your statements.

This stats includes ALL deaths Buicky, not just those directly attributable to war in Iraq. The increase has only been a small percentage over regular deaths. One also must take into consideration the mental state of families interviewed and how they will attribute almost any death to the hostilities in Iraq.

These are FAR from any relevant or accurate numbers, maybe you can get your record to stop skipping now and get back to reality.

33 replies

by bucky kaufman (mcsd)

re:
These deaths are NOT ALL DUE TO US ATTACKS THOUGH. These deaths include ALL deaths, the VIOLENT deaths are said to be 2.5 times higher than before the invasion and that's ALL it proves.
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You needed a study to tell you that?

Are you *really* surprised to learn that the US-backed War against the People of Iraq has created more, not less, violent deaths?

I mean, sheesh, you got death camps in Baghdad, dozens of thousands of troops slaughtering the Fallujans and about $1M per day going to funding a war. What could you possibly have expected to come out of this - free elections?

by oz_media

First of all, you are running off on some heated tangent that makes no sense and supports nothing you have claimed so far.

Second of all, you need to realize just how against this war and the Bush administration I am.

You are still barking up the wrong tree though. You see, in the USA, people are alowed to vote for the person they feel would be best suited to control thier country's affairs for a four year term. This process resulted in GWB being elected, TWICE.

Now, this would generally lead to the conclusion that 300 Million people feel he is the best man. Now whether the entire nation votes for him or not is completely irrelevant, the majority vote will represent the greatest samle of the US population in favour of his leadership.

So anyway, IT'S TOO LATE BUCKY!!

Now, you continuallly go on and on abot 100K dead Iraqi's, when referring to the war,GWB...well and anything else regardless of the topic. This implies that YOU feel the war is responsible for 100K dead Iraqi's. IT ISN'T, based on YOUR numbers, it is responsible for a TWO POINT FIVE PERCENT (2.5%) increase in dead Iraqi's.

Now you say that EVERYONE knows this, which removes ALL impact from such a statement, and yet you continue to throw this number around as if it is relevant and has meaning. In fact I would have thought the percentage much higher.

There are many interpretations of your statistic, and yet they all differ in conclusion. This would then reslut in the stats being invaluable and well.....useless. They survey questions should have specifically targeted a conclusion instead.

So, 100K dead Iraqi's? Who cares? The number is invalid.

NEXT

by bucky kaufman (mcsd)

re:
Now, you continuallly go on and on abot 100K dead Iraqi's, when referring to the war,GWB...well and anything else regardless of the topic. This implies that YOU feel the war is responsible for 100K dead Iraqi's.
---- ---- ---- ----

100,000 - 90,000 - 80,000 - you dispute the deaths, promote the war as a humanitarian mission and claim the Iraqis love us for it - even though they kill a few more of us every single day, day in and day out, week after week, year after year.

But I'm a progressive - open to new ideas. How many dozens of thousands of innocent Iraqis do *you* think the US Republican Guard has killed, or should continue to kill - all of 'em? Only a nother coupla dozen thousand?

I wish you guys were as concerend with Americas' REAL enemies as you are with our brothers and sisters in Iraq.

re:
So, 100K dead Iraqi's? Who cares? The number is invalid.
---- ---- ---- ----
Your casual disregard for Human Life is not very Christian, is it?

by protiusx

Ok Bucky since you won?t pony up I thought I?d do it for you. The number of dead Iraqi?s that the DNC and leftist media keeps spewing forth comes from a survey report from John Hopkins University (Boy they?re centrist aren?t they!) that claims ?about 100,000 Iraqi civilians have died as a result of the war?.
When one looks at the figures of the study the only conclusion is that these results are a load of tosh.
?The report's authors derive this figure by estimating how many Iraqis died in a 14-month period before the U.S. invasion, conducting surveys on how many died in a similar period after the invasion began (more on those surveys later), and subtracting the difference. That difference?the number of "extra" deaths in the post-invasion period?signifies the war's toll. That number is 98,000. But read the passage that cites the calculation more fully:
We estimate there were 98,000 extra deaths (95% CI 8000-194 000) during the post-war period.
Readers who are accustomed to perusing statistical documents know what the set of numbers in the parentheses means. For the other 99.9 percent of you, I'll spell it out in plain English?which, disturbingly, the study never does. It means that the authors are 95 percent confident that the war-caused deaths totaled some number between 8,000 and 194,000. (The number cited in plain language?98,000?is roughly at the halfway point in this absurdly vast range.)? ? Fred Kaplan MSN
So there you go Bucky my boy. Put that in your saucer and spin it.

by bucky kaufman (mcsd)

Yeah - I already knew where the figure came from, and that it's *wildly* inaccurate.

The point I was making, and which y'all Bush Loyalists were proving - is your casual disregard for the value of human life.

100,000 - 90,000 - 50,000 - how many have to be slaughtered before forces loyal to the Bush Regime start feeling good about themselves?

I think the most reliable figures put the death count of innocent, unarmed, noncombatant civillians closer to 30,000 - that's not including the Iraqi soldiers killed in the initial invasion - just the innocents.

You got all up in arms about 3000 innocent Americans being killed, so why do you now so enthusiastically defend the deaths of 10x as many innocents?

Is it because their skin is brown? Because their church is not your church?

You guys originally supported US-backed terrorism because of nuclear bombs, but you were proven wrong. You said it was becasue the Iraqis are al Quaeda - but you were proven wrong there, too.

Now you say the dozens upon dozens of thousands of dead Innocent Iraqis are necessary to... replace their broken democracy with another equally broken democracy?

Are you aware that there is no plan to withdraw US-backed death squads and torture brigades after the January elections?

What will your excuse be then - faith?

by oz_media

Bucky, you are months late. THis conversation and defense was used by me and MANY others whenit actually mattered.

What do you want Bucky, do you want Protius to give GWB a call and tell him he's changed his mind and doesn't support that war? Get real, you are completely insane with your too little too late argument. There is no point to prove, so you have no goal to reach, don't you get it? HOW and WHY do you STILL argue such points of no value?

I did notice you called me a Republican though, this is quite amusing. I have had every label in the book here, but Republican is a new one! :D

Now go wash your mouth out with soap and come up with something new to talk about that everyone hasn't already heard 100,000 times.

by g.brown

All you do is quote some "statistics" ... as just about anyone knows ... most of these are made up!!!

If you ask me ... the "exact" number doesn't really matter ....

Anyone with an unbiased view can see the atrocities being perpetrated, apart from people who just view it as collateral damage :( to satisfy their "morality"

"The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities commited by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them." George Orwell, 1945

by packet spoofer

The point protius was trying to make is NOT that the lives don't matter, but that they were unqualified numbers....The people matter.....but qualify the amount, don't just take what someone on one side of the political spectrum drums up....and then chastise anyone who challenges the number you they up with as calloused insensative people who don't give a rip about the dying going on in Iraq. The truth is, if the people in Iraq would have risen up against this tyrant a long time ago, we would not be cleaning this mess up. They have themselves to blame for tolerating years of abusive dictatorial leadership. I blame the U.N. , The iraqi people, and the inability of the international community to deal with this problem. I fault them for the fact that American and coalition men and women are fighting and dying in iraq.

by oz_media

Damn, you are so defensive you are completely blind to what you are reading, get some help.

First of all you said "promote the war as a humanitarian mission and claim the Iraqis love us for it " Now I think you were responding to MY comments when you jumped to that retarded conclusion.

-Could you perhaps tell me what gave you the idea that I think such things?

-Did I promote ANYTHING AT ALL here?

"But I'm a progressive - open to new ideas."

Now you are saying things I never said at all, AGAIN.

-when did I say ANYTHING of the sort?

I didn't, I haven't, I am NOT Republican as you would like to suggest.

What you have done here is the most immature defensive rant that I have ever seen from a child yet alone an adult. You keep hearing voices in your head that tell you people are saying things they haven't.

You JUMPED to a rash conclusion based on a STEREOTYPE that you have created for those that oppose you. Everything that you deem negative about the war is all of a sudden bundled into a stereotype that anyone who opposes you MUST fit.

It is childish Bucky, grow up and at least TRY to look like an adult here.

You are SOOOOOOOO wrong it is amusing, I am sure anyone else reading your analogies of me must be rolling with laughter, had you actually been around to hear my complaint BEFORE the election, then you would not be even on the same train of thought. YOu are so far off base it is ridiculous.

Go and get a life Bucky, stand outside the White House with your sign of protest, people here are ready to move on. If you have such deep rooted issues, perhaps you should seek professional help before you cause permanent damage to yourself.

by bucky kaufman (mcsd)

re:
I didn't, I haven't, I am NOT Republican as you would like to suggest.
---- ---- ---- ----

I was responding to your post saying we should all get together and support Bush. While you may not be a registered Republican, you are indeed advocating their ideals.

re:
had you actually been around to hear my complaint BEFORE the election, then you would not be even on the same train of thought.
----- ----- ----- ----- -----

What caused you to change your mind, and advocate support for Bush?

by oz_media

Firstly Bucky, you have been making absurd assumptions about me for a few weeks now, I am NOT Amerrican. I am NOT a Democrat (never was) nor am I a Republican (never was).

You sir are 100% incorrect and way off base in your quick, unqualified analogies of my character.

A "turncoat", for realizing that it is too late to do ANYTHING about it other than move on and live my life, I am a turncoat,

For understanding that the majority of voting Americans chose Bush, for whetever reasons, regardless of all other issues put forward and his opponents challenges, I am a turncoat.

For accepting that I cannot do anything at this point other than be a broken record just like you I am a turncoat.

YOU ARE WRONG, NOT EVEN FORMING A SINGLE LOGICAL THOUGHT. YOU NEED HELP.

Do you still complain because Bobby wouldn't ket you play first base in grade 3?

You also said, "What caused you to change your mind, and advocate support for Bush?"

What possibly gives you the idea that I advocate support for Bush? Because I have the mental capacity to understand that America voted for him as president for a seond term?

You sir need to get over your denial and come to terms with reality.

You have a fantastic, yet not clever, knack for asking questions, without answering questions asked of yourself.

You have an uncanny ability to dwell on the rhetoric and irrelevancies of US political affairs. QUoting 100K dead as if you have a point, knowing all along it is an inflated and extremely inacacurate GUESSTIMATE.

You are completely insane, you have no thought process, no logic, no common sense and no reason at all. I'd say you were brain dead as of Nov. 1st.

by packet spoofer

Oz, you put a lot of time into responding to a guy that obviously has his head lodged where the son does not shine.....my question is....why? there are alot of thoughtful discussions you could be engaging in rather than being set off by this nutcase....

by oz_media

Guys like this are just excercise, he has no ability to form a logical thought or conclusion based on facts presented it's not exactly a battle of wits!

This guy even thinks he is giong to achieve something by convincing people he's mad.
:D

by olprof67

And while we're on the subject of "Iraqi" casualties, let's not forget the imported fanatics from outside who specifically came to Iraq to offer themselves to the cause of radical Islam.

These individuals cheered the loudest on 9-11-01; their enemy is not simply the United States -- it is an emerging global economy that has no use for them whatsoever.

if the Iraqi incursion served to lure these criminals into enclaves like Falluja where they can be most easily dealt with, then Mr. Bush and our military deserve yet another round of thanks.

by bucky kaufman (mcsd)

re:
if the Iraqi incursion served to lure these criminals into enclaves like Falluja where they can be most easily dealt
---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ----

Why do you NeoCons support the expansion of al Quaeda?

This is a fine example of how Bush's followers have such a casual disregard for the lives of Iraqi civillians.

But the Iraqi people didn't deserve to have al Quaeda lured into their country. It's why so many of them, who have *nothing* to do with al Quaeda are killing US soldiers every, single day - week after week, month after month, year after year.

Perhaps you think the best way to keep your computer virus-free is to infect all the machines around you?

by olprof67

We enjoy hearing liberals run off at the mouth.

It enables the vast majority in the moderate center to identify them and tune them out.

Just like militant Islamists give themselves away.

Your self-righteousnes is your own undoing .... please foam away!

by maxwell edison

Remember when I told you all
About those nasty Republicans
And I begged you to believe
Because I'd go berserk?
Well...

You left me all alone
And then the the voices in my head
Got worse and worse
And now you see I've gone
Completely out of my mind
And...

They're coming to take me away, HA HA
They're coming to take me away, HO HO HEE HEE HA HA
To the funny farm
Where life is beautiful all the time
And I'll be happy to see
Those nice, young men
In their clean, white coats
And they're coming to take me away, Ha-haaa!

You thought it was a joke
And so you laughed
You laughed when I had said
That NeoCons would make me flip my lid
Right...

You know you laughed, I heard you laugh
You laughed, you laughed and laughed
And then you left
But now you know I'm utterly mad!
And...

They're coming to take me away, HA HA
They're coming to take me away, HO HO HEE HEE HA HA
To the happy home
With trees and flowers and chirping birds
And basket weavers who sit and smile
And twiddle their thumbs and toes
And they're coming to take me away, Ha-haaa!

I warned you once
I warned you twice
About those NeoCons
And all about
Their ruthless power-grabing deeds!!
Hah...

Well you just wait
They'll find you yet
And when they do they'll
Put you in the clink, you mangy mutt!
And...

They're coming to take me away, HA HA
They're coming to take me away, HO HO HEE HEE HA HA
To the funny farm
Where life is beautiful all the time
And I'll be happy to see
Those nice, young men
In their clean, white coats
And they're coming to take me away, Ha-haaa!

To the happy home
With trees and flowers and chirping birds
And basket weavers who sit and smile
And twiddle their thumbs and toes
And they're coming to take me away, Ha-haaa!

To the funny farm
Where life is beautiful all the time
And I'll be happy to see
Those nice, young men
In their clean, white coats
And they're coming to take me away, Ha-haaa!

- Jerry Samuels (ak.a. Napoleon XIV) and edited by Maxwell Edison

by bucky kaufman (mcsd)

re:
HOW and WHY do you STILL argue such points of no value?
---- ---- ---- ---- ----

What makes you think the lives of innocent Iraqis have no value?

I'll answer yours if you'll answer mine.

by oz_media

Now first of all, we are not discussing the value of Iraqi lives, we are discussing the FACT that GWB has been elected for a second term, and you can't do ANYTHING about it other than complain.

Yes, war is a hrrrible sate of arrairs for any country. No I do NOT agree with the way the war was entered without proper justification or support from allies. NO I do not think Bush is an able leader of the US. Now obviously MOST Americans think otherwise.

But do you know what? He IS leading you for another four years.

I Do care about the lives of innocent Iraqi's, I also care about the lives of the soldiers who are being sent to die under this idiots thumb. So what? Who cares? America didn't because they elected him TWICE. So what can you do about it, other than simply complain and refuse to get on with your life?

Get oer it.

Now, for MY question (you said you'd show me yours if I showed you mine),

WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO ACHIEVE BY COMPLAINING ABOUT BUSH HERE AND CALLING PEOPLE NAMES?

by bucky kaufman (mcsd)

re:
Now first of all, we are not discussing the value of Iraqi lives
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I guess it was the topic sentence about "100,000" dead Iraqis that threw me. My bad.

by bucky kaufman (mcsd)

re:
You have an uncanny ability to dwell on the rhetoric and irrelevancies of US political affairs.
----- ----- ----- ----- ----- -----

What makes you think US political affairs are irrelevent? That's just nuts.

by oz_media

Well you have responded to yet another post without answering questions already asked of you.

You are not worth my nor anyone's time. You are simply an idiot disguised as a lunatic.

Of course political affairs are not irrelevant, the issues YOU have raised are. THERE IS NOTHING YOU NOR I CAN DO TO CHANGE THE CURRENT ADMINISTRATION OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

You are wasting YOUR time, MY time and EVERYONE else's time with your incessant rambling on ridiculous claims.

Get a life before you start asking people more questions, especially if you have no answers yourself.

by oz_media

You are a complete moron to come to such idiotic conclusions, get some help.

You do it all the time, have never made any sense in this not any other thread and just waste time, what a loser, you are simply a cyst to society. Nothing productive yet lots of issues to bitch and whine about.

THis thread is NOT about the VALUE of Iraqi lives, IT ISN'T I STARTED IT AND WOULD KNOW WHAT THE FRIGGIN TOPIC IS ABOUT, AND [b]IT IS NOT ABOUT THE VALUE OF ANYONE"S LIFE[/b] Yes you are horribly wrong and it is "your bad". If I didn't know better I'd say you were seven.

This post, that I started, is 100% about your attempts at making an issue of an unrealistic and an unqualified, irrelevant statistic.

Now even YOU agreed it is wrong, therefore you LIED by stating it's relevancy in every discussion for the last few days.

I am done with you, people told me you were a nutcase but I thopught you MAY have a little common sense, my mistake, you are an utter and complete freak of nature, and you teach CHILDREN?!? When your student ask you a question, do you simply start asking them questions?

Well I can confidently say, I'm glad my kid went to school far away from you, he would be in an asylum by now (and me in jail).

What a tool :D

by g.brown

So you don't think things like:

Invading a country (in many people's view illegaly)

Abu Gareb

To name but two things ...

If someone invaded your country ... would you put up with this?? I doubt it.

by packet spoofer

I would beg to be invaded by the armies of the united states....that maniac gassed 5000 of his own citizens and was researching new and improved methods of killing people. He is responsible for hundreds of thousands of innocent iraqi deaths and should have been dealt with by the international community..;... They however, have no problem with dictators who exterminate hundreds of thousand or even millions of their own people, because they are busy double dealing and trying to line their pockets with money from programs that should have helped the iraqi people, but instead empowered Hussein

by bucky kaufman (mcsd)

re:
I would beg to be invaded by the armies of the united states....that maniac gassed 5000 of his own citizens
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With the advice and consent of King George I.

You're probably not aware that Bush gave Saddam permission to slaughter the Kurds because they're terrorists.

It's wild how, out of sheer ignorance, you would defend terrorists - as a way of supporting Bush.

This is probably why y'all have been such a spectacular failure at preventing terrorism, and so successful at spreading it.

by g.brown

You say that if your president killed thousands of innocent civillians, then you would beg to be invaded by another country.

Do you not count the thousands who have been killed in Iraq?

WWhen exactly would you like someone to invade you??

On your next point ... inventing new and improved methods of killing people.

So when did America stop "inventing new and improved methods of killing people"??

Can you tell me which coutries are not?

Well, the international community was dealing with it (albeit slowly ... but what other options, other than war could you come up with) until the "coalition", in my view went into the war illegally.

And on your last point ... well youre starting to sound a little racist.

You still haven't answered my main question which was that if your country was invaded would you stand by whilst you see things like torturing in Abu Gareb!!

by bucky kaufman (mcsd)

The reason I haven't answered your questions to your satisfaction is because you haven't asked any legitimate questions.

Do you still kick your dog, or have you advanced to beating your family?

If you want some honest answers, you'll need to ask some honest questions.

by bucky kaufman (mcsd)

re:
The people matter.....but qualify the amount, don't just take what someone on one side of the political spectrum drums up
---- ---- ---- ---- ----

I agree. Unfortunately, the Bush Regime does not. They don't track the number of Iraqi deaths. They simply kill them and leave them.

Since the ones you trust doesn't think it's important enough to track - and you don't trust the people who do track the deaths - you effectively dismiss the value of their lives.

This doctors group counted 100,000 dead because of the war. I trust the doctors.

The Bush Regime does not dispute that number because, for them, the lives of innocent Iraqis don't count.

by g.brown

OK, so you blame invading Iraq, which was not an imminent threat, on Iraq.

I blame the "coalition" for believing something that wasn't there aka WMD, or intentionally misleading people.

So I belive they are either stupid, or liars.

And you are just falling for it hook, line and sinker!!

by packet spoofer

terrorist attack in our country in 3 years.....how does that equate to a failure.....?
The extra terrestrials are coming bucky.....look out!

by packet spoofer

point G....

You said.....
"You say that if your president killed thousands of innocent civillians, then you would beg to be invaded by another country.

Do you not count the thousands who have been killed in Iraq?"
No....there is no moral equivilence to people killed in war vs. People gassed by an evil dictator....
The vast majority of the people that were killed in iraq were not innocent civilians. I am not advocating the killing of innocent people, but if you listen to some here, you would think that that is what everyone of the war dead in iraq is...innocent civilians.

"WWhen exactly would you like someone to invade you?? "
I would not in reality like to have someone invade my country. I would like to think that a torturer/murderer like Saddam could never rise to leadership in our country. Now to those of you like bucky that would interject claiming that this is what Bush is, save it.....that is rediculous and somewhere under all of the ranting, I sincerely believe you know it too!

"On your next point ... inventing new and improved methods of killing people.

So when did America stop "inventing new and improved methods of killing people"??"
There exist many threats to americans in the world...north korea now has weapons pointed at us, not to mention former threats...if you were a leader in america and did not respond to these threats by balancing them with appropriate weaponery, you would not be a leader here long....
And any leader in any responsible country would do the same thing if they could....

"Can you tell me which coutries are not?"
No

"Well, the international community was dealing with it (albeit slowly ... but what other options, other than war could you come up with) until the "coalition", in my view went into the war illegally."
You feel we did this illegally...that is your view, but I disagree, and we pursued action through the UN, but they would not enforce there own resolutions..

"And on your last point ... well youre starting to sound a little racist."
I do not see this, and I am no racist....but you will see what you choose to see in my statements...

"You still haven't answered my main question which was that if your country was invaded would you stand by whilst you see things like torturing in Abu Gareb!!"
Shame on the soldiers and anyone who was involved in the attrocious behavior at Abu Gareb...I do not condone this at all....I think it makes success much more difficult...

This discussion is closed to new replies.