99 lashes

I think if you went to Baltimore, it would live up to your expectations.

(I was going to say New Jersey, but I figured I would get a lot less hate mail if I confined it to a city rather than a state. But then, I just realized I am going to get hate mail from both now).

Its really how all women are treated in the Islamic world. Then there is Neda from Iran, who's life was cut short because she was protesting. She has become the face of their revolution.

http://articles.cnn.com/2010-06-20/world/iran.neda.anniversary_1_neda-agha-soltan-green-movement-iranian-president-mahmoud-ahmadinejad?_s=PM:WORLD

Did you mean that you posted on TR or the Iranian sites? I hope you mean the Iranian sites. Its disturbing that those replies could be from peers on TR.

Yes, we got rid of Saddam and his depraved sons. Saudi Arabia, I guess we don't mess with them because of oil even though they are just as bad. Originally, we went into Afghanistan (before the Iraq war) to stop the atrocities where women were being executed for just about anything and to get rid of the Taliban.

Sharia law is practiced throughout the Islamic world, unfortunately, but Iran is the focus now because they want to acquire nuclear weapons.

What an awful life for any woman to be born in the middle-east. Yuk.

AV

It had NOTHING to do with bashing America, not in any way shape or form.

This thread was started by an absolute f-in idiot who wanted to bash Iraq, as if America was superior and it was your duty to set them straight.

I simply said he needs to look at his own country's problems before pointing a finger and expecting the rest of the world to act as HIS country does, which I am sure you agree has enough issues of its.

It's the whole stones and glass houses routine.

As I said somewhere else here, it's like a fat kid telling a skinny kid he has a weight problem. They BOTH have problems, just different sides of the spectrum.

To correct you, this is actually a bash Iran. It even commented "INVADE AND DESTROY, OR LOOK THE OTHER WAY"

To have someone say the same about America, which I didn't, is simply unacceptable though?

The OP insinuates that it is your duty to invade and destroy nations who's laws and culture differ from your own ideals. This is also why I pointed out that your ideals differ from many others who feel YOUR laws are overly repressive and unfairly taking away your freedoms.

So why does an American get to bash, suggest invading and destroying a foreign nation due to moral differences, but the mere mention of your own issues is deemed wrongful bashing of America? This is where the hypocrisy comes into play.

Canada has a lot of problems too, so does the UK, but that doesn't mean I am bashing Canada or the UK, just facing the reality so many Americans (many posting here) seem to be completely blind to.

I haven't suggested that you change your immoral laws that seem repressive to others, just in order to meet our own ideals and moral standards.

Santee is the arseholl here, not me, I just offered a does of reality in the mix.

As for apples and oranges, that's crap too. Th ebottom line is, WHAT BUSINESS IS IT OF YOURS IF ANOTHER NATION LASHES PEOPLE OR STONES THEN INSTEAD OF ELECTROCUTING OR POISONING THEM TO DEATH?

You are both intent on killing people for their crimes(and often wrongfully doing so) and locking them up for the most menial of issues.

Get over yourselves, the US justice system is as hooped as any.
What others do is none of your business and there are far worse punishments handed out in other nations but the buzz word for public hatred has got to be Iran.

Santee is just a gimp that belongs in a freak circus with his racial hatred.

[i]In other words, mind your own f-in business, it's not your nation to make such decisions and judgments for. [/i]

We're not entitled to opinions but you are? Faugh!

Seems like you've got your head so far up it, you're looking out your mouth.

Make sure you're sitting down it may just scare the hell out of you.

I didn't start a thread saying you should be invaded while posting how you repressed someone in a prision system. I simply used America as an example to illustrate the hypocrisy of the original poster.

Canadians think US laws are screwed up, but that's YOUR country, YOUR laws, YOUR society, not Canada's to chastize. Your laws even impact our nation negatively too, there has been an increase in deaths by handgun because US guns make it across the border where there are actually more guns per capita but under tighter control.

It's not a matter of your opinion vs mine. All it was was some a-hole bashing Iran and suggesting invading them, without realizing its none of his business what they do withing their borders, especially when others see the US justice system as being repressive too.

I only pointed out the hypocrisy in the OP.

Do you feel it really IS your job to invade countries who's laws differ from your own? America the world's police? YOU may think so but nobody else is buying it.

It's none of your f-in business if we want to discuss something here. If you don't like it, you don't have to show up. That you continually show up marks you as incapable of the same "live-and-let-live" attitude you excoriate us for not having. That you are also unable to differentiate between a question about a potential moral dilemma and bashing makes you even less welcome.

This used to be a nice discussion until you moved in.

The way it was being used as a noun was incorrect.

Another nation's punishment is none of your business, still don't get it? why is Iranian punishment so wrong, yet poisining someone to death is just fine. Lashing someone 99 times is bad, electrucuting someone until death is not.

My point is, people living in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. It's always Americans being so shocked at other nations, as if they are above all others. It's as if they believe they really do live in utopia and not some overly repressive police state. Wake up.

Why nto make a stand against all teh people released after 20+ years on death row, when they are later found innocent. And then wonder how many WERE executed for comitting no crime at all.

YOU have your share of legal problems and bad justice too, my point is who are you to suggest invading a nation because you disagree with it's forms of justice?

Every nation wrongly incarcerates people, they don't all execute those they incarcerate though.

My point it, the US justice system is as flawed as any. Is it Canada's place to set you straight? No. Is it the EU or UK's place to set yoru straight? No.

But as the OP suggests, Iran is wrong and you should be able to invade them for such things.

You come in to these discussions and trash America and Americans in general for the same type of ignorance and intolerance you express in your posts.

Done.

It's a term used for a f'ing GAME! Yet lets apply it to our justice system and PLAY with real people's lives instead.

But hey, again, that is YOUR justice systemm not mine. If you didn't like it you could just up and move. It's not for others to suggest invading America over noncompliance with their laws.

So why is everyone moving to America? the same reason Americans move to Canada and claim refugee status, the same reason Iranians flee to France and the UK. The same reason someoen leaves Australia for Spain or Germany for Norway. People MOVE.

For decades America has flaunted itself as teh land of opportunity and freedom, so much so that most Americans still believe it really is. Yet there are fewer jobs than in Canada or the UK and there are no more freedoms as most other 'free' nations.

People MOVE because they MOVE. It's got nothing to do with America being superior in any way shape or form. YOu can believe what you wish, but once you see that there is more freedom elsewhere, more money, more employment, more opportunity, you may change your tone, as many thousands of Americans do each and every year. Its 2010 not 1950.

Your closing sentence hits the nail on the head. You wouldn't listen to Canada's suggesting slacker penalities for drug related crime, nor does anyone expect you to, we certainly don't suggest an invasion of America to set you straight.

I didn't attack America, I simply said that in order to attack another nation for their justice system, your own better be pretty damn flawless.

It's a long time portrayal, people around the world don't see what teh Us is REALLY like, no different or better than anywhere else really. Just a bit less freedom and a lot more violence.

The entrie basis of my post was to illustrate just that! I used it to point out the hypocrisy in the OP.

Certainly you really arent that blatantly stupid!

My point, to Santee, was 'who are you to chastize others when you have your own justice problems that others ignore.' It's nobody's business but yoru own, just as in Iran it's nobody's business but their own.

I didn't START a post about the horrific treatment from the US justice system, I didn't start a post about invading America for their wrongdoings. Santee did so toward Iran, I merely pointed out that it's not his business to decide what's right or wrong elsewhere in the world when his own nations has it's own pile of problems. Nobody expects America to conform to their laws, why should Americans expect it from others?

Always got to stick your oar in, don't you, even when you are obviously completely lost in the discussion.

If you are really that dense that you can't read back and see it yourself, you need to get a grip and open your eyes for once instead of jumping to defend America at all costs, as if you can do no wrong!

It has NOTHING to do with who printed the article. NOTHING AT ALL. And FYI the article Santee used in his bash Iran post was CNN World, US edition, though it is irrelevant.

Santee posted it and suggested they should invade and destroy them, as if it is any of your business to police other nations.

Get a farking clue already!

It's almost hilarious how a blatant bash Iran thread is seen as a bash America thread just because a little reality was thrown into the mix to show the hypocrisy of the OP.

One day an American will look inwards and realize that you are not any better or different than most other free nations, and the world will stop turning, the skies will grow dark and hell will freeze over, an AMERICAN with world vision, heaven help you all.

Balkanized.

Every time you come in to one of these discussions, you display the same arrogance and intolerance you accuse Americans of having. Further, you don't even think about who you're replying to, you just reflexively attack. In this thread, you've even accused neilb of being an American.

It's old. It's been done. It's boring.

edit: And you can't be so stupid as to believe that all Americans think the American system is perfect.

While I'm sure America is not in Canada's class for just treatment of criminals and its overall sweetness of human nature, I'd have to say we're not so bad. The western democracies all take turns leading the world in the enlightenment of the criminal justice process, and we'll have our turn again. American society produces more criminals than others do, and it chooses to prosecute drug dealers more vigorously than makes sense, so we have issues that color the situation. We're going through a particular bit of a crisis now. We've locked up more people than we can afford to house. Our justice policy is shaped by populist politics, and not by genius criminologists working independently.

Really, Oz, don't you think that if you had spent any time incarcerated in Russia, or Iran, or Afghanistan, or Laos, or Zimbabwe, you might wish that their jails and courts were like those you deplore in the USA? Not that we are the happiest place in the west to be in jail, but we're okay.

I'm sure that in Canada's jails if you're a cute and willowy young man, you'd better watch your ass, too. Prison rape is universal.

fyi, those of you who do not know the remarkable story that led Karla and Paul to prison, and what they did to Karla's sister, among others, you can Wikipedia them. Karla got out serving only 10 years on the terms of a plea bargain. Oh, Canada!

It was a BASH Iran post from Santee. End of.

If it was posed as an open question by a normally impartial peer, you'd have a point, as it was posted as a shot, and followed with the most ignorant comments about invading and wiping 'them' out, by one of TR's most biased, bigoted and culturally ignorant peers, your point needs a hat to fit it.

As for me stopping in, it is my freedom to do so just as it yours to defend the holy states of America, which wasn't even bashed to begin with if you knew how to read.

You are just too f'in defensive and dense to know any better. Get over yourself, you are nobody but some insignificant pratt on the Internet, what makes you believe you are ANY better or any more entitled to an opinion than ANYONE else who walks this Earth?

Just because I didn't sit back and let a bunch or morons bash a foreign nation they have been trained to hate, it doesn't mean it would have been a rational and open discussion at all.
You can fool yourself, it must be pretty easy, but not me.

In teaching a pig to sing, you waste your time and you annoy the pig.

The other one has something to do with a choir.

Oz thinks a discussion and it's first post are somehow connected... how bizarre! :O

So I won't get on to you about your complete misunderstanding of my comments to neil ABOUT America. The use of YOU was in the third person, like the opening paragraph also was, as was neil's observation.

Education, could be useful for you,well they tried anyway.

As for me doing this too long, do you mean I've been reading these posts too long, from morons who think they should be judging others when their own nation is a global farce?

When someone bashes another country and ignores his own country's shortcomings, it's fair game, when he is then shown the hypocrisy of that comment it is antiAmerican?

You are clever, aren't you?

As for all Americans loving your justice system, I implied nothing of the sort, it was a comment directed solely at the OP of this thread, who seemed to feel he was right to judge another nation and deem it horriffic and worthy of invasion. Meanwhile completely ignoring that people around the world see the exact same thing with US justice. BLIND and IGNORANT, you two should go bowling.

It wasn't antiAmerican, it was someone being smug and then being told to open his eyes to his opwn reality, which he had ignorantly chosen to not consider..and now you ignorantly support it without a clue what you are talking about.

Perhaps they should learn to be masons.

It's nice to see that, when I criticize Americans, you can accept the how and why, thank you for that.

Muddleheaded, but valiant.

My comment was towards the first and following posts which echoed the same tone. It is THAT which this has all stemmed from, I know a lot of you can't keep up but at least give it a go.

one way or another... *thwack*
Shouldn't have taught them to throws stones though...

The gravel on the bottom of the tank still has some scum on it, get back to it.

Well this thread I did, but others post once in a while for me too. Used to be more often but these days I post more than tha others.

There's actually three of us, used to be several more, who use the same PC when bored to rattle the cages.

You do your part for less than minimum wage.

Not likely.

There are stupid people everywhere (none of which have been in this discussion, or named by you, Oz).

Every country (or namely, the decision makers) has the same purpose in mind with any action taken.
The problem, then, lies in the publication of these ideals.

I think that the USA is one of the most (if not, The Most) publicized nations in the world, so nothing escapes the rest of us.

For example, and out of my curiosity: Who is Australia's new Prime Minister (and without research)?
I could bet that more people in the world knew about Obama's presidency than who won our election.

Having a death sentence at all is immoral and wrong.

Places that have that are in the dark ages.

of Canadian Vectians.

Wooo. Spooky.

:D

Many people, myself included, reacted in shock and horror when the news of Homolka's plea bargain was announced. Here is someone who participated as a partner in the murders, even if she didn't do the actual killing.

But the justification thats been given is that without her co-operation there would not be a solid case against Bernardo and there may not have been a conviction. Its also worth noting that Bernardo was a suspect in many rapes before he starting seeing Hmoloka and so getting him off the street was a big concern. There is even some evidence that one man was convicted of murder of someone Bernardo knew, and that Bernardo might have been the "real" suspect. I met the man who was convicted, he worked at a company I did some consulting for in the 80s.

James

Good thing you're in R&D.

You claim there are no stupid people here in this discussion?
OP.

You also claim my comments were not anti-American? Perhaps there are many here in need of an education then.

I am labeled as anti-America, even though I conduct daily business with Americans whom I respect and find very clever.

The problem is, is I say the word America or American, people instantly construes it as being anti-American as they simply cannot accept someone noting that they have flaws too. I didn't say ANYTHING against America here, but am seen as bashing America, illustrating the horrific reading comprehension skills that many peers choose to display here. However the original post about invading and wiping out Iranians for their own forms of justice seems quite acceptable.

I merely pointed out that not everyone else sees US laws as being fair and just either, however nobody is condemning you and saying you should be invaded and wiped out for wrongly sentencing and executing innocent citizens.

So yes, stupidity seems to run rampant amongst the masses here.

I make over $45/hr while reading your crap and laughing at your BS. If you THINK that you are worth paying for posts, you are much more pathetic than I ever believed .

And that;s exactly my point. I didn't condone their actions, nor do I deem them medieval simply because my society would not accept such actions. To me, capital punishment is dumb and immoral too, it's a result of ignorance leading to the execution of many innocents due to legal arrogance. If you cannot prove all crimes 100% (not simply beyond reasonable doubt) you have no right to take someone's life for committing a crime. The fact that your system continues to sentence people to death, illustrates that your justice system deems itself perfect and incapable of a mistake, when thousands of those 'mistakes' have been made already over the years.

You live in a society that wrongly accuses, sentences, incarcerates and often executes innocent citizens, yet stands proud in doing so. Who are you to judge what you BELIEVE to be immoral actions of others?

Regardless of whether you deem Iranian justice is horrific, barbaric or what, to suggest that you go n do something about it simply perpetuates the global view of America wanting to be the world police.

You just don't seem to know your place in the world.

Well, let's see. I'm alone in this world, with no information other than what I gather with my eyes and find in my heart to tell me what's right. When I pray, I hear only myself; God does not appear to want to make it easy by answering the important questions for me. I have to fill in all the blanks by myself.

Although there's uncertainty in this life, and relativism between cultures as to what's right and wrong in particular situations, there is still right and wrong. If I don't stand for what is right, as I see it and know it to be, then I abjure my responsibility as a moral agent, and fail myself, people, and God. Incidentally, I'm not sure that God cares as much about these things as I do. Hope he does. Like I say, I'm clueless on the surface of this old planet, and any way it comes, my morals are my job.

I don't know how people can stone a woman to death for adultery, evidence of which is often assumed instead of known. They must be taking some sort of moral vacation, letting themselves get caught up in the edgy excitement of murder, and drawing smug satisfaction from village elders who assure them it's right. The way someone can convince himself this is justice is as grotesque as the murder itself.

And, getting back to your points, avoiding a moral judgement on an issue like this on the grounds that it's unreasonable to have unflattering opinions about sadistic murder masquerading as justice in another culture, is no evidence of a refined moral sense. I note that you're extremely comfortable condemning American courts and jails.

I really don't understand your anger. But, I suppose, people that have such extreme points of view is what makes this forum interesting.

Firstly, Santee is not stupid, he merely has a different point of view than you do. That hardly makes him stupid. I have yet to see someone show aggravating stupidity, other than certain question posters who make no attempt to solve their own problem.
Generally speaking, those who post in the discussions forum do have some sense, therefor are not stupid.

Second, I didn't say your comments weren't - or were, I meant to portray that the problem doesn't lie solely with the Americans and that stupidity is a worldwide disease.

In fact, this 'American Stupidity' most likely comes from media and the push for profit.

Oz, you can say that you think invading Iran and changing their laws is a bad idea -- ignorant even, but not stupid.
Stupid is walking onto a busy road without looking and being steamrolled by a garbage truck.
Stupid is-not taking an emotional response to a lawful action heard on the news.

That you read this question as bashing is not my problem, but yours. My response to that question is, to me, the only reasonable response to that question. If you didn't read my response, that's also your problem.

Are Americans not authorized to express opinions about world events until our system is perfect? Bugger that...and you.

If you are trying to justify a physical attack because of the 'justice' system of another country, I would have to agree that your 'justice' system had better be flawless. An attack implies that you are planning on replacing their entire 'justice' system.

You can have flaws if you criticize aspects of a country's 'justice' system that you dislike, especially if your 'justice' system is more humane and promotes true justice. Just be prepared to defend your flaws against their criticism if THEY have a better 'justice' system in other areas.

Of course, 'better' may be a cultural thing. Chopping off a hand if you are a thief probably does a 'better' job of discouraging repeat offenses than thirty days in jail.

I only used the US justice system as an example to illustrate that looking outward as if all is great inward is poor judgment.

I have also said that Canada i not perfect, neither is the UK, EU etc.

My point was, nobody's perfect, who is Santee to start expecting judgment to be passed o a foreign culture?

Santee always has an ulterior motive behind posting, rarely a forthright one.

His "moral observation" as people would like to see it, is merely a bash Iran post seeking carpet bagger and camel jockey replies to suit his appetite for bigotry.

I only pointed ou tthat he who lives in glass houses should't be throwing stones, I shared open views of teh US justice system that most Americans here have also claimd they do not support either. But we don't see a post about how America incarcerates people or executes the innocent, we see a post about what another nation is doing instead. another nation that the media has worked hard at to get the American public to dislike, as they did Afghanistan and then Iraq consecutively in order to support two wars. You don't think Iran has been in the US military's sights for a long time? If things had turned out successful in Iraq, you don't think soldiers would have been shipped directly to an invasion of Iran?

No, instead they go back to Afghanistan, which they never should have left so prematurely on a wild goose chase with no end in sight, even today after years of occupation. So once things look positive in Afghanistan, and a republican president is at the helm, you don't think that they will be seeking public support to invade Iran? These are just the stepping stones to achieve their desired offensives.

get dullard public minds, like Santee, to start jumping on the bandwagon and you are halfway there before you even know it. 4 to 6 years down the road, it continues, in Iran.

Sensational, and usually horrendously incorrect media spins always create hatred toward another government. God you even started to shoot from the hip at France when they didn't take your side, all because of media spins.
When Canada was accused of letting terrorists into the US, Americans were all over Canada's case, not realizing that Us customs guards permitted them into the US, not Canadian.

A lot of sheep there just waiting to be told who to hate next, helpfulin case the government needs support in their plans for total domination of anothers resources.
Sieg Heil!

I'm not Canadian and I actually like America. Spend a lot of time there, make a lot of money there.

This has nothing to do with what I think of America at all, try reading. I said, in comparison, that your system is seen as horrendously flawed and immoral too, time to look inward before you point fingers that's all. But take it as you will, you were obviously trained to defend the most idiotic actions without questioning them anyway.

People were taught by the media to fear Iraq, not ALL people but a great deal, which helped support the occupation. It was all here, as you very well remember, how everyoe was talking about how I'd let my new born babies dies from an attack, how I didn't care about public safety, my country and all that BS.

First it was women wearing Burqas, then how they were repressed and spit on in the streets, then how their water supplies kept being sabotaged etc. It finally ended with WMD to really strike fear into the weary.

So in hindsight, are we not seeing a setup to open doors for the same down the road? The ground work to attack Iran?

First it was the seeking out of nuclear weaponry, they tried the direct alliance with AlQaeda, now it's all about how horrific they are to the people when it comes to justice. Just look at the posts here saying how immoral it is to bury people to the chest and stone them, lashings etc.
Hatred and fear breeding.

A few years down the road, it makes for easy support for an occupation of Iraq. The end result, after many years and thousands of American lives lost, more to come perhaps, and they have control of the world's oil reserves AT LAST!

Remember, the Us was just scoffed at when seeking better deals in Venezuela, they have already threatened to cut off the US as they now have more amicable trade with China who lets them run their government as they please, the US was instilling government criteria for trade.

These are predictions made nearly a decade ago by US oil companies and laughed at by US politicians, yet the course of action is unfolding exactly as predicted.

"We wouldn't POSSIBLY do that, it would be wrong!" Yet it is unfolding just as expected.

"Do what that wilt shall be the whole of the law." or was that Aliester Crowley? LOL.

(an intro passage used on of my artists CD's).

I couldn't agree more James (hope you were witting down for that). In fact to the point that if coincidental justice were at play, as is so common in today's courtrooms, he would be helped responsible for the deaths of anyone attacked as a result.

Why not, Charles Manson got off on that hitch but people STILL don't agree with it being just.

The OP is an instigator, his "QUESTION" was not open ended, it was leading. If you agree with turning your back, you are ignoring what he deems inexcusable actions of others in a foreign nation, for an American that's just not right. His objective is clearly to have people agree that Iranians are a backward and archaic people.

"Invade and destroy, or look the other way in equanimity with sorrow?"

Of course we ALL know what his true intentions are, it would be out of character for him to really consider the latter, or support anyone who did.

Do not judge others lest ye be judged yourself.

We all see what happens when judgment is passed on the American system, as illustrated here when judgment was never even passed to begin with, just assumed so.

I have to agree with what you say about instant media. It is one of the worst parts of today's world when a spin master gets a hold of it.

People need to think and get the whole story before they act. And that applies to everybody involved.

Of course, instant media can also be one of the best parts of today's world under the right conditions.

I am a sales manager, the access to worldwide company data and technological updates from the Internet alone is simply stunning. I remember te days of filing cabinets as far as the eye can see, full of customer files and industruy data, it was an incredibly time consuming task in itself.

So while I applaud the technology that makes us more productive, financiall beneficial and globally competitive, I see the horrors too.

of course ANY media, whether the newspapers, telegraph etc. has always been 'misused' or abused to lead people into a particular train of thought, it is just rampant nowdays and many people just can't determine good from bad anymore. just too many sources that can't be confirmed, it's one of those read it enough times and you'll believe it scenarios. Briliant but but sad at the same time really.

No matter what system is devised, someone will abuse it.

I think that unfortunately too many people believe everything they see and hear these days "I checked it out on the Internet and it's true", comes into play far too often.

These so called 'atrocities' have been occurring since the dawn of time, however now that there is an easy outlet for it, people are becoming personally invested in the business of others whom they would have not even shown interest toward before or simply turned a blind eye to as they sought out the local news instead.

The fear mongering has not ben dissuaded by teh governments either, they just let it flow in case they need reasons for action, then it is SO easy for them to find the support.

It's not new, this isn't something that has occurred just since Americans became faced with terrorism, other nations have dealt with this reality for decades.

But now it is news, fodder for the media to perpetuate racial hatred and feel high about thei rown nations in the process. certainly it isn't productive and posts like the OP don't do anything to help anyone in any way.

I guess that's been my point all along, WHY NOW? Is it merely because it is trendy/newsworthy to all of a sudden pay attention to actions in the Middle East, whilst far more atrocious events happen daily worldwide?

People with such passions need to learn that this and much worse is a fact of life in many foreign nations and has been long before 9/11. However nobody cared then, now that they fear for their own safety, or pretend to anyway, they use it as justification to start judging others.

The Internet and internet news has been around for a decade and a half now, yet all of a sudden it's time to take action?

It's all just because people have be trained to be concerned abotu Middle Eastern activity, it's not new, just newsowrthy for many as it sells stories and creates controversy.

You can't 'fix' everyone and pretending to care now is simply hypocrisy at it's worst.

Forgive me, AV, for using that as a hook for this post.

Not so. I went the northern length of Iran and right through the middle of Afghanistan, much of it on foot, through the wildest and hairiest of places, in 1968, fresh from, and with the, observational skills of a newspaper reporter.

To say, "No one", was not in my vocabulary at the time. Nor, is it now. Old habits of accuracy, truthfulness, and hard lessons of reporting die hard.

"No one" -- that easy expression -- is too much, to me, the work of an Oz. His work particularly with respect to "reporting" on the mindset of another. Please don't mimic him. Easy to write, I know, but hell to back up if you wish to be taken seriously.

I made friends at the time. The hospitality of Islam to a stranger kept me in one piece.

Though I have not kept up those friendships over the years, I have paid and I do pay scrupulous attention to anything and everything, since, that happens in that fond part of the world.

Speak carefully, AV. Attend also to other easy parts of your post.

______

Comma Police

But you're using the first definition, and I'm using the second.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/instigator

I won't say no one, I'll correct that to say most Americans. You've actually had a different experience.

What I meant is that most American people never cared about our differences with the Middle East before 9/11, but now, there is more of a focus on what their intentions are. Friend or foe?

Its a matter of trust. Islam may have been welcoming to you in 1968, but today you might be beheaded. You really can't be sure, and thats the problem. If you say you're from America, it probably isn't a good thing.

AV

Reporting the mindset of not only one other, but a whole people.

At least you didn't use my favorite, "The vast majority".

Had you, I would have caused your beheading.

They were just people from different backgrounds before 9/11. A common sight in the NY Metro area.

After 9/11, there was fear and mistrust that has never totally gone away. Its understandable because the people that died in the WTC all lived here in our communities.

AV

You are getting closer to the bone -- the bone of your own experience and perception, never a thing to apologize for.

This does not include what some crow to be the minding experience of another, and bruited perceptions of same.

Oz.

Quotes in bold are from Oz_Media. I started at this paragraph because of the first sentence in the following paragraph.

"I guess that's been my point all along, WHY NOW? Is it merely because it is trendy/newsworthy to all of a sudden pay attention to actions in the Middle East, whilst far more atrocious events happen daily worldwide?"

Why now? The better question might be why this particular case has made the headlines as opposed to other atrocities. Women's rights groups might be promoting it, especially since there is very little mention of the men involved facing lashes or stoning. Or there could be some groups trying to use it as an excuse for war. Or it could even be something promoted by the woman's lawyer and family. All of the above and more might be the cause.

People with such passions need to learn that this and much worse is a fact of life in many foreign nations and has been long before 9/11. However nobody cared then, now that they fear for their own safety, or pretend to anyway, they use it as justification to start judging others.

I think you are partly wrong about people not caring about these things or even knowing about them before 9/11. Some people knew about them and some of those people were doing something about it because they truly care about what is happening.

At the same time, 9/11 and various sources have caused a greater number of people to pay more attention to what is happening in other countries. Some of these people truly care about what happening but others are using it as an excuse for their actions.

The Internet and internet news has been around for a decade and a half now, yet all of a sudden it's time to take action?

A decade and a half ago Compuserve and AOL were big players in a field composed of computer geeks and a handful of others. I'd say that it has been within the last five to seven years that the Internet and internet news has been making a major impact on things. Social networking might be the key to the transformation. Camera phones and Twitter also play a part. That and people learning how to use electronic media to herd the masses.

It's all just because people have be trained to be concerned abotu Middle Eastern activity, it's not new, just newsowrthy for many as it sells stories and creates controversy.

Didn't you mention earlier that "People with such passions need to learn that this and much worse is a fact of life in many foreign nations and has been long before 9/11."? If this group of people doesn't start learning about things today, when should they start learning about them? They have to start some time.

Of course, they also need to learn to think for themselves and remember that the Internet is not always accurate. For that matter, they should always question their sources and seek as much of the truth behind the reports as they can find.

You can't 'fix' everyone and pretending to care now is simply hypocrisy at it's worst.

Pretending to care is hypocrisy. Learning to care based on newly acquired information moves away from hypocrisy and toward true caring.

You are right in that Middle Eastern awareness began after 9/11 and that you were 'snookered' into supporting the occupation of IRAQ. Going after the Taliban in Afghanistan was obvious, I supported such retaliation to, as did most of your allies who quickly stood at your side, with arms. It WAS somewhat successful, then the focus changed and it all wen to crap as you withdrew troops and funding to focus on Iraq, we all saw what happened after that.

As for Iranian nukes, again they TRIED to say the same thing years ago. The same day that US confirmed that they had NOT sought out nuclear arms, GWB was on TV that night saying they HAD confirmed they were seeking nuclear arms. Only to let it fall to the wayside and not be repeated again, some say he wasn't sure, but his advisors state that he was.

Remember the race to arms against the commie Russians? If they beat us they will kill us?

Russia knows better and so does Iran. Launch a nuclear attack on the USA and the Middle East isn't inhabitable for decades, and they KNOW that. They aren't morons living in sand castles, they are extremely technologically advanced, have some of the best scientific universities on the planet, live in palaces that pale the White House (bad pun, huh?)and have trillions of dollars invested IN US property. In fact 'they' say that if Middle Eastern investments in the US were removed it would literally destroy the US financially, thus the great fear about oil trade moving to the Euro. That would cause investments to be moved across the pond and the US would financially perish as they don't HAVE the money to return to them to begin with.

Will Iran seek out nuclear arms, they would be stupid not to, everyone else with any power has, years ago.

Will Iran use said arms to attack the US? not bloody likely, but that fear is still put into people's heads and causes support for such 'protection' from Iranian's gaining such technology.

Those same scientists could easily move to Afghanistan, Iraq etc with their development plans too. Just as many German scientists joined the allies in developing the atom bomb.

It's not the country as much as it is the brilliant minds that get enticed by the almighty dollar to do so.

I think another bank shot is just around the corner. Rack 'em up.

AV, I completely understood your point. It does not lead me to think 'every American' at all, I have the comprehension skills to determine your meaning without correction.

Others amongst us? Maybe not so much, as we see. People in tech seem to think too literally and don't understand such subtleties are to be taken less literally...ooops, make that, 'In my observations, there have been many people working in the field of information technology that seem to take such comments literally and don't appear capable of differentiating a passionate comment from a statement of certainty. ;)

You simply repeated me and echoed my comments.

Is passion, stick to poetry.

I figured that quoting the text of the prior posting would make things clearer. I've seen too many arguments in forums that stem from misunderstandings.

I have to disagree that I'm echoing your comments.

When you posed a question, I tried answering it, though some of the questions generated more questions than answers.

When you made a statement, I tried to question the aspects that bothered me as well as expand on things.

The closest thing I did to an echo was tied to the last paragraph. The first sentence was an echo. The second sentence touches on what should be happening as people learn more about the world and the injustices that exist.

Gandhi was a brilliant man, a man of PEACE and HOPE, like Obama or even David Suzuki (what a mix they all are, interesting cocktail party anyway!).

In this case, such voices fall upon deaf ears though, we are talking about a hostile government that has stuck to such traditions for centuries and continues to do so in order to spit in the face of the modern world. I think much of these actions are to spite other nations, to show defiantly that they will retain ancient customs, especially when so appalling to others.

It's like baiting media to show how they retain customs and refuse to accept modern society, as is the aim for many Islamic leaders.@this will get a rise out of them, have Habib take a picture for the AP to plaster all over the world.

People, such as Santee, who try to make such a big deal out of it, simply perpetuate it.

Don't pay the kid any attention and he'll stop whining, may actually be the best course of action. They have revolted and protested these actions themselves for many years, it is not acceptable or 'normal' punishment, much it makes for great news when they do. "Look how barbaric we are with our customs, what are YOU going to do about it"

Remember this is a nation of men who find spitting upon another is one of the greatest portrayals of disgust there is. Spitting in the face of the west is reason for celebration. It truly is effective, got a rise out of people worldwide, if it wasn't, it wouldn't be done anymore. Just look at all the attention spitting at women on the streets was in Afghanistan. These days the actions are more to show disgust and disdain but the whole spitting on the women things has become old hat, according to women who have been interviewed there. They once again return to hospitals and schools without repercussion, as it is no longer news to repress them and attack them.

It takes a different mindset, they don't act like you or I, they act like our children, as advanced as they really are.

Don't pay any attention and they'll find some way to grab some more press and show their antiquated custom to the world once again. And here we are, just gobbling it all up and giving them another 15 minutes in the limelight.

You'd be able to identify your own ridiculous comments.

To those who are concerned about matters that don't effect them nor their nation.

Generalist said "There are 10 coconuts in the basket"

In truth there are only 8.

generalist said "All people feel a certain way."

In truth only most.

That's not correction it is irrelevant hair splitting.

The US always stated that they wanted to deal with Iran diplomatically, even when GWB was President, though he did say they were part of the "Axis of Evil".

You make a real good point about investments in this country by Middle Eastern countries. That is the truth and even true in the case of the Mosque they want to build in NYC. Its partly funded by Saudi investors, the same country that also gave us the radicals that flew planes into the World Trade Center. The investors in that Mosque are extremely contentious to the people that lost loved ones on 9/11. Its understandable.

Iran wouldn't use nuclear arms against the US, but they have expressed many times that Israel should be wiped off the face of the Earth. That is the problem. If they even attempt that, the US will likely be drawn into something that no one wants.

Thankfully, we don't have warmonger Bush as our President anymore. No more "bring it on". Today, an olive branch is extended from Obama with some tough love from Hillary Clinton.

AV

People that live and work in the NY/NJ metro area experienced a terrible bonding experience because of 9/11.

I don't know if people outside of this area realize how devastating 9/11 was. There were so many funerals after that and people that got sick from helping those affected by the attack. It was really so terrible and everyone in this area was changed forever.

My brother-in-law worked at Marsh McLennan at the time. They lost 400 people in the WTC attack and he was lucky enough not to have been there that day. I remember calling him that day and he told me that "everyone is dead". It was surreal and I'll never forget it.

AV

It wasn't just where you were.

Later that day, shortly after it all, I was at a 7-11 just up the street, getting something.

This is 3,000-something miles from you.

The woman behind the counter had an expression on her face.

I had to ask her, "You okay?"

I asked her as a way of asking my own self.

[i] Now refine your list...to those who are concerned about matters that don't effect them nor their nation. [/i]

This matter (discussion) affects neither you nor your nation.

You need one after, "Then,.."

Not that it would intrude on the mind of Oz, who struts to a different drummer.