General discussion


A year later

By Oz_Media ·
Well, hopefully with a year behind it, we can attempt to discuss the progress of the Iraqi invasion without too much hostility, we should be looking beyond the reasons for now and lookig toward the end of this conflict.

CBC aired the documentary again "Deadline Baghdad" they say it was banned by censors in the US and several other countries and the CRTC in Canada has tried stopping its airing but unsuccessfully as it breaches fredom of expression rights.

In a nutshell, 50 reporters that hav ebeen in Iraq from many different countriesd showed unedited footage and photos of what was really going on. Not a very pretty picture and i won't go into any details, lets just say it is NO WHERE NEAR as pretty and successful as we are generally shown it to be, even the soldiers are disgusted with the guerilla warfare style it is being fought in.

Besides that though, what has bene accomplished?

I notice the latest tout from the Bush Administration is that Lybia has stopped building neuclear arms, first I've heard of that goal as an objective, even though this has been a long term goal of all the worlds nations.

They also say that they hae uncovered parts for building nuclear arms and they are being shipped out of the country now, we should see more in the future.

Some say Iraq has enough money in it's own oil resources to pay for thier own reconstruction now, but from what I understand, they have only turned out 6 billion in oil this year and repairs are slated at over 100 billion to restore Baghdad (not the 180 billion as originally proposed).

So what are the stories from other parts of the globe?

Please try to keep this to just reporting the latest news as shown in your media and not personal opinions, as they usually get nasty. Nobody can flame YOU for delivering the news.

If we do this like big kids, we may be able to actually share news reports without it becoming self opinionated war.

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How many Iraqis have died?

by jardinier In reply to A year later

What is very noticeable in general reports about Iraq is that, while the USA keeps a tally of US service people who have died, and are continuing to die in Iraq, there is rarely any mention of the tens of thousands of innocent Iraqi citizens who have lost their lives, or been seriously wounded in this illegal invasion. It is most certainly not a war as, to the best of my knowledge, the USA never actually declared war on Iraq.

If a Labor Government had been in power at the time, Australia would definitely NOT have joined the accurately named COW. Mark Latham, the new leader of the Australian Labor Party, and very likely the next Prime Minister of Australia after the next election, made speeches about Labor's stance well before the start of the invasion. He especially referred to the young children who would inevitably be killed.

Now what REALLY gets my goat is that, even after acknowledging that the "intelligence" about the alleged WMDs was flawed, there has still been NO ADMISSION from the US that oil was a part of the equation, which even Blind Freddie could see.

As a friend said to me yesterday: the Arab peoples have always followed a tribal culture, and there is no indication that this will ever change. Even the oil producing Middle Eastern countries which are not in any way accused of terrorism have, on the back of the enormous income from oil, ended up with filthy rich dictators or oligarchies who neglect to give a fair deal to the citizens.

As the Iraqis have repeatedly declared, after initially thanking the COW of ridding them of their sadistic leader, Saddam Hussein, they do NOT want a Western-style democracy. More than likely, after the dust settles and the blood stops flowing, they will end up by choosing as their leader another dictator, who will be a Muslim of one kind or another, who will try and turn Iraq into a Muslim country.

The terrorist attacks in Bali, and more recently in Spain, were obviously directed at countries which supported the invasion. When will the American public face up to the obvious fact that the invasion should never have occurred in the first place?

And, more importantly, when will the US Government admit that its decision to invade Iraq was premature; was not supported by the UN Security Council; and could, as it has done, turn into "Vietnam in the sand?"

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Wel I see your points BUT...

by Oz_Media In reply to How many Iraqis have died ...

Julian, I really don't want this to be a debate about opinions. You offered some information updates which is great but we need to try and remove personal opinion from shadowing the reports.

Other than that, nicely said.

In another sense, "Haiti?s Crisis ? Reaction from Members of the U.S. Congress"

QUOTE: "I ask this President, how can he justify our attack of Iraq by claiming we are building a democracy while he sits idly by and watches a democracy in Haiti being destroyed by thugs whose only goal is to steal power from a duly-elected President? "

From what was reported over the weekend, Haitians citizens have never supported the Iraq war yet they are supposed to be one of the countries that were said to strongly support the effort. I wonder what the truths are, especialy with no stable government in place to speak on thier behalf.

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Opinions and facts

by antipodes In reply to Wel I see your points BUT ...

I have sat back quietly for a while observing the nature of postings to the various discussions. I have deduced that some/most/or even possibly all TR members consider the media in general so biased as to not be a reliable source of FACTS.

As statistics are also scorned in some discussions, then things like relative body counts would no doubt also come into question.

From whence therefore do we get an accurate account of events in Iraq? Quite frankly I am astounded that apparently not ONE of the presumably well paid members of TechRepublic has taken a week or two off work and flown to Baghdad to actually get a first-hand look at and feel of the situation.

I most certainly would have done this myself if I had the money for the air fare, which I don't.

I daresay that "jul646" could have backed up his personal opinions with excerpts from the media with comments from important people who are or have been in Iraq. But if the media is biased, and "jul646" quoted from the media, then this would not, in the eyes of many TR members, in any way have validated his opinions.

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by Oz_Media In reply to Opinions and facts

AuntP I see your point but this is an excercise in seeing exactly how the media portrays the success/failure of the invasion one year since it began.

Sorry but I really get off on the media. I hate watching all the political BS normally but since media and mass marketing is an 'interest' of mine,I am interested in seeing how media portrays events and how accurately.

I'm not trying to be a hypcrite by all of a sudden NOT wanting personal opinions. I still feel personal feeling is best for most of our discussions because they promote thought that is needed for public opinion, such as the 'gay marriage' discussion. I don't think there's a single resource LINKED to or a statement referred to other than the bible which is the center of the issue, fantastic discussion!

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How many have not....

by TopesBlues In reply to How many Iraqis have died ...

How many Iraqis haven?t died in the last year? Not much is said about the mass graves that have been found. In the hundreds of thousands from what I have heard from the press. How many Iraqis aren?t being held as political prisoners and tortured tonight by the Hussein?s thugs? How many Iraqis haven?t been executed by the Fediyne (sorry about the spelling) in the last year? At least now they might have a chance at a better future.
As far as I know,,,The US hasn?t shipped any of the oil to ourselves. ( I may be wrong on that but I haven?t read any where that we were. I?ll get ready for the backlash on that one.) As far as the UN, the countries that objected (France,Russia,Germany) to us invading all had illegal oil contracts with Iraq. Against the UN resolution. The one thing I do agree on is that in the end Iraq will probably have a Muslim based govt that is not friendly to its own people much less the US?.and that?s my two cents!

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Toeing the line

by Oz_Media In reply to How many have not....

well you startyed out offereing speculation and sheer defense, but no news or reports, we must watch that we keep personal predjudices out of this.

You did say that " As far as the UN, the countries that objected (France,Russia,Germany) to us invading all had illegal oil contracts with Iraq."

Now from the US Embassy's Report to Congress, these countries were in turn trading this 'ill gained oil' with America, as the USA was unable to purchase directly from Iraq.

I'm not saying that the US is to blame but I this definitely implies the motivation for other countries to try and profit from US demand.

Just like a drug dealer, they only succeed because of junkies that buy it from them, supply and demand.

The first part about mass graves and how many more would have died is pure speculation. There's no doubt that UK troops found mass graves but to say you have saved all these people is pure speculation and just doesn't hold water.

What does the US news say about the mass graves? What updates have YOU heard?

What I find is that we are all getting a different story. What I se from Canadian news is dramatically different from the what the US networks say.

bu simply compiling links to information sources around the world, we MAY get someidea of how and why people formed positive or negative opinions.

Reinforcing a single point isn't going to work at all.

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Delayed response

by Oz_Media In reply to How many have not....

Actually I did consider what you had said today but as an aside to the topic here:
The soldiers that died are trained to defend thier country, they were under the impression this was in Americas defense.

Had you been told that your son had to die so that 100 Iraqi's wouldn't, I'm sure the support wouldn't have been so great.

If they needed you to sacrifice your life because thousands die of starvation in Ethiopia, I don't think support would last long once bodies came home.

But I say again, I really don't want this discussion to turn that way.

I value your opinion and accept it but am more interested in seeing how you have reached your opinion, was this in the news?

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My opinions.

by TopesBlues In reply to Delayed response

Your right, the amount of people that weren?t killed is all speculation. As far as where and how I get my opinions is based on what I read-hear in the news. Including network news,PBS and BBC. Amongst others. There is also a show called Frontline that?s aired on PBS that does documentaries on very current events. It?s a lot more credible than the news as far as I?m concerned. Just a little belated.

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Well done

by Oz_Media In reply to My opinions.

I watch frontline in Canada sometimes too, I believe It is also aired in Australia and the UK. It is often an extreme humanitarian or 'left' angled but it doesn't MAKE up stories, they just show am angle of a story that is yet to be considered. It's good for weighing against other reports.

Now you mentioned that there are these mass graves and that the US stopping Saddam may have stopped further executions. Now I agree with this completely anyone who has seen the graves on TV would agree.

I have a question.
1) In Canada, that angle has been explored, they then spoke with leaders of other nations who say this torturous mass execution was known and was slated to be stopped by force anyway. The reluctance of the others to invade hastily was due to the only reason for invasion being that the UN was not doing it's job in finding the WMD. Now this has been proven wrong, they did do thier jobs and very efficiently. They had uncovered unused warheads and all other SAID sites were clean. The US didn't believe this as the defectors were saying that arms existed. Each time, the inspections were clean.

Has this been in your news reports or is it a different message?

This is why I wasn't in favour of a hasty invasion, it has uncovered NOTHING AT ALL that we weren't already aware of and willing to act upon. GWB AND his informants (said to be simply looking to get Liberation from the USA and lying about WMD sites)were wrong. They have been proven wrong and US news STILL won't air it as such. Instead the focus is turned to Liberation, and now how Libya has stood down. THIS is an example of propaganda in the first degree, I don't think any different than the German propaganda that said how well they were succeeding and had all the German citizens looking at the Allies as bad people that neede stopping. The German citizens had NO idea what was really happening and turned against the rest of the world.

Since the invasion and the time leading to it, I've seen US citizens turn against France, Germany, Spain, Canada, Australia etc. for not supporting them. Perhaps it is due to a difference in reporting style, perhaps it is because bad news is not accepted, propaganda or perhaps many things, not REALLY my focus as to why just how and what.

I REALLY don't want to argue these points with you as you are no more informed than me and we simply see different angles, although we both see some truth here. I am just looking for your honesty in what has been reported as you've shown so far.


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Whether war

by Cactus Pete In reply to How many Iraqis have died ...

"It is most certainly not a war as, to the best of my knowledge, the USA never actually declared war on Iraq."

The US was never not at war since the original Desert Storm in '**. They were still at war when invading a year ago - that was the rationale for not having to declare it again.

What gets me is that I still haven't heard them declare an end to the war yet.... I hope that happens before June 30.

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