Adventures in Linux
This is page 2 of the discussion. Read the opening post
Linux
This is page 2 of the discussion. Read the opening post
by apotheon
by athanman
by bobinvegas9
by apotheon
by filker0
I usually install cygwin (http://www.cygwin.com/) on my Windows machines and use ssh from there to access remote Linux, Unix, and other Unix-like systems. Cygwin even has an X11 server, so you can run X11 apps from the Windows workstation. The drawback is that a lot of KDE apps use extensions that are not supported by the cygwin server, so you may see a lot of warnings in the text window from which you ran ssh to get to the remote host. Further, typing control-C in the "root" cygwin terminal window often kills not only the program you're running in that window, but any spawned off xterms as well, which is quite inconvenient.
PuTTY works fine when you don't want the heavy-weight solution that cygwin offers, but cygwin does offer one additional benefit -- it gives you a bash shell on your Windows workstation, and it's easy to port many command-line tools from Linux to cygwin with a simple "make".
by apotheon
by dmarston
First: Congratulations of taking the plunge!
(The rest of this is off base and some ranting is involved :P )
But, this thread (and countless others like it) is a prime example of why Linux (any and all distros) will never become the dominate O.S. for everyday users.
With all its power and configurability comes it's weakness. Let's face it, Aunt Betty and her quilt knitting friends will NEVER edit config files or compile source code. Nor do they want to! (The same can be said of most business users, the Accountants, Salesmen, H.R. folks, etc. etc.)
Average users want to be able to turn it on, read email, print pictures, and create documents. M$ Windoze and Mac accomplish this flawlessly. RedHat is getting closer to this level of "newbie proof", but even RH needs tweaking to get everything to work right. And unless you?re a geek, most Linux documentation might as well be written in Swahili. (Ironically, in some distros you have to be a geek even to find the documentation by using the CLI MAN commands)
A while back I read a piece about some guy trying to print to a shared printer (on XP), it went on to describe his efforts digging through the documentation, setting up SAMBA, dealing with dependencies, etc. until he got it working.
Super! He got it working!
Unfortunately, he left Aunt Betty WAAYYY back there somewhere in the MAN pages; Way before he figured out he needed SAMBA, let alone figuring out the dependency trees.
If Little O?l Betty can?t just "point and click" and have it work, she WILL use something else.
The same thing goes for installing applications. In Windoze, you put the disc in, double click ?setup.exe? and it auto-magically does its thing. Linux users have to deal with dependencies, Tar balls / RPMs /packages, kernel versions, compiling from source, etc. etc. etc.
So herein lies the point; If (and only if) Linux programmers start thinking about Aunt Betty and her book club buddies can Linux become mainstream. Until then, Linux will always be for "Geeks Only".
YES, Linux is better
YES, Linux is more secure
YES, Linux is cool
YES, M$ Windoze sucks
NO, Linux (as is) can not, and will not, become mainstream.
So, To all developers (and end users who influence developers);
Just because some functionality can be added in, doesn?t mean that is should be added in.
Get a picture of the most computer illiterate person you know, tape it on your monitor, and with every piece of your software ask yourself? would (insert name) understand this??
Think about USEABILITY first! Then you can give the options for advanced functionality and tuning. Just because your printing software can support 14 different formats, doesn?t mean the end user should have to choose among them! If the printer hooked to the computer can only use format # 3, then show, and default to format # 3!
Aunt Betty has no clue what any of these things do, and she DOESN?T CARE! She wants to print this weeks quilt pattern.
That?s it, Period.
Whether or not this software / driver supports 47 different configurations or not, is absolutely irrelevant to her.
(This applies to ALL software, I know I?m picking on printing, but only because it illustrates the point well)
Once your software is ?Aunt Betty proof?, and accomplishes its primary goal (i.e. the printer auto-magically prints), then you can make the advanced features available through either config files or plug-ins or whatever.
Secondly, make the documentation ?Aunt Betty proof? as well by using plain English and make it easy to find!
Thirdly, Make installers that include everything your software needs to run!
If you can?t grab it off the shelf, rip off the shrink-wrap, and install it, neither will Aunt Betty!
Well, that?s my rant.. :P
by apotheon
Carpetbombing a discussion forum is rude and annoying. Stop it.
That said, I'll repeat here the same thing I said in response to your horribly underinformed rant in the "Linux in the real world" thread:
When you've supported as many end-users trying to install Windows from scratch, or trying to resolve issues when hardware gets replaced, as I have, then perhaps you'll realize that Windows is at best no better than Linux for issues like this.
"Aunt Betty and her quilt knitting friends will NEVER edit config files or compile source code."
They'll never hack the Windows Registry, flash BIOS, or resolve driver conflicts through the Device Manager, either. The real difference is in the fact that it's harder to find vendors that sell complete systems with Linux pre-installed and pre-configured.
"in some distros you have to be a geek even to find the documentation by using the CLI MAN commands"
Funny, I never realized you had to be a "geek" to type "man" and hit the Enter key. That's news to me. In any case, I'd rather have obscure documentation than none at all.
"A while back I read a piece about some guy trying to print to a shared printer (on XP), it went on to describe his efforts digging through the documentation, setting up SAMBA, dealing with dependencies, etc."
Funny, with Red Hat using KDE (for instance), I just click Control Center > System > Printing Manager and use the GUI printing configuration tool; this is very like the way Windows handles it. On Mandrake with KDE it's slightly more complex: I open the Mandrake menu and go to System > Configuration > Configure Your Computer > Hardware > Printers (which is made a little more obvious by the fact that the icon for Hardware shows a printer). It's similarly easy in GNOME. While I wouldn't throw a user who'd only used Windows previously into CLI printing configuration without waterwings, even it is not too difficult on distributions like Debian (my favorite).
"The same thing goes for installing applications. In Windoze, you put the disc in, double click 'setup.exe' and it auto-magically does its thing."
Jeez, that sounds pretty much like a pain in the arse. You have to have a CD? I just type "apt-get install [packagename]" in Debian, or "urpmi [packagename]" in Mandrake, or "yum install [packagename]" in Fedora Core, and it installs, dependencies and all. Even better, unlike with Windows applications, installing a new one using "apt-get install" doesn't tend to break other applications that use some of the same libraries (DLLs in Windows-speak).
"Just because some functionality can be added in, doesn?t mean that is should be added in."
Gee, I've been saying that about Microsoft for years, and they're still not listening to little old me. Next time you decide to say something like that, maybe you should have a look at the broken-ass mess of "features" that MS calls "Office" first.
"Once your software is ?Aunt Betty proof?, and accomplishes its primary goal (i.e. the printer auto-magically prints), then you can make the advanced features available through either config files or plug-ins or whatever."
Well, good. Then we're done. See above, re: KDE and GNOME configuration of printing. By the way, "config files . . . or whatever" is what's going on behind the scenes, just as Windows Registry settings, MIME type configuration, DLL dependencies, and so on are going on behind the scenes when you configure printers for Windows. This isn't "extra functionality" that gets added on later. This is what makes it all work in the first place. The point of using plain text config files rather than a Windows Registry is to make it easier for an expert to troubleshoot when Aunt Betty completely screws something up.
"Make installers that include everything your software needs to run!"
Ooh, bloat. Good plan. More complexity. Less secure software is fun. More broken software is fun. Oh, yeah, and even Windows doesn't do this as much as you think. Luckily, unlike Windows, major Linux distributions provide massive software package repositories that allow you to ignore things like dependencies and just say "install this thing", and it installs and automagically works. I'm guessing you haven't actually tried this stuff out, though.
"If you can?t grab it off the shelf, rip off the shrink-wrap, and install it,"
Why would I want to do all that? I can just skip the "grab it off the shelf" and "rip off the shrink-wrap" steps and go straight to "install it".
by george.ayton
Hey! I'm with ya Garion11. My issue is the modem tho, the optical mouse also stopped working 10 min into the session. I switched to a serial mouse and all ok there now. I unstalled red hat from 3 cd's that came in a magazine. I kept XP on the pc as well, after 4 days of playing around on spare disk drives. In researching why the modem can't be found(aWINmodem), I have discovered a shipfull of modem lore to consider.
SOme say the Conexxion winmodem is no good, others sya depends on the chipset..!?
more maybe later. I am at gt.ayton@sympatico.ca when not working.
by apotheon
In general, you should use what many call a "hardware" modem for anything but Windows. The reason "Winmodems" are called "Winmodems" is that they were designed with only part of the modulation/demodulation functionality provided by hardware, with most of it being provided through a software emulator of the hardware functionality of a "true" modem.
This software-based modulation and demodulation has a number of (negative) side-effects. For one thing, it's more "fragile", as it's entirely too easy for the software component to get corrupted (thus introducing a shorter lifespan for the modem). For another, there's higher latency with software-based operation rather than hardware-based. Finally, because it relies on specific software functionality to work, and because that functionality is the only thing that differentiates one brand of Winmodem from another, all of the source code is jealously guarded, copyrighted, legally protected trade secrets, making it difficult indeed for the open source community to properly support Winmodems.
These days, the only fully hardware-based modems available are, for the most part, external modems. Unfortunately, they tend to cost significantly more than internal modems (around five times as much: average $35 instead of $7, roughly). There are internal hardware modems out there, but they all tend to be ten years old and hard to find.
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