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by jardinier

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What is this? Is it a new religion, or perhaps a new political movement?
Now before I become involved in these TR political discussions I had never heard the term used anywhere. I am certainly not anti-America, the country, or anti-American, the individual. In fact I have mentioned in some earlier discussion that I have liked the Americans whom I have met, and I also stated that when I was Living in Kings Cross, at the time of the Vietnam War, I was very impressed by the refinement and courtesy of the US soldiers who came to this part of Sydney for their R & R. Some girls living in the same rooming house as myself went out with some of these men, and likewise commented on their gentlemanly behaviour.

Now I may not like the current US Administration, and I most certainly have good reasons (too many to list here) to dislike the current Australian government. But this does not mean that I dislike America and Americans in general, any more than I would be inclined to dislike Australia or Australians in general.

Australia is a great place to live, as anyone who has visited here will agree.

So if you read any general anti-American sentiments in any of my postings, then you are imposing that interpretation yourself (yourselves).

52 replies

by mrbill-

Taxes are too high. But love the countryside over there.

Better yet why don't you throw off the shackels and join us. We would be happy to add a couple stars to Olde Glory, better for you than joining the ECU any day.

by hal 9000

Even Ronald Ragen said as much so you Brits will just have to settle for the 52 nd State mantle.

by mrbill-

I?d welcome either one of your states, except Australia would be 4 states itself, and UK would be 3, the former due to size and the latter for socio reasons. But we?d have to loss NI, too much trouble. Imagine the great cultural heritage we would have. Not to mention how much more powerful we would be. Let those whiners in the UN say something then. Think about the special services we could field.

Should we invite the chaps from the north? Nice folks, good beer, and beautiful country.

by hal 9000

Six States and two Terretorities so there may be a bit of a problem there but other wise I can't see a problem.

by trib

The UK and Australia should just form an alliance with the US along the lines of the EU (Canada can join if they want to). We would dominate the global for decades to come and each of our economies complements the others such that they would be almost unstoppable!!! That is after a short period of squabbling and some aftershocks from the changes (20 years should do it).

As for the bashing. Sometimes the US takes the hit and sometimes it?s in the limelight. Most of the people who bash it want to live here given the chance any way (I know I am generalizing). As far as bashing in TR well free speech gives one the right to say what the want. I think the issue is one of is this a political or technical one?

by oz_media

Your statement, although seemingly open minded and free is actually typically arrogant.

"We would dominate the global for decades to come and each of our economies complements the others such that they would be almost unstoppable!!!"

Is that the focus of world affairs now? Domination via a pissing contest? Unstoppable by who? I didn't realize we were trying to win something, I just wake up, take a pee, shower, eat and start my day. I didn't realize I had to win something each day to justify my existence.

"As for the bashing. Sometimes the US takes the hit and sometimes it?s in the limelight. Most of the people who bash it want to live here given the chance any way (I know I am generalizing)."

recents reports showed that although almost ALL Americans feel the rest of the world wants to move to America, only 18% actually do. That's a pretty low number to assume everyone wants to live there. I moved out of the US due to the misguided BS. Of course you are going to be constantly ridiculed and attacked. You are constantly going against other countries wishes while expecting them to become an alliance, if they don't, all the American citizens slam the others for NONCOMPLIANCE with their ideas. You assume you are respected and parised by all other countries in the globe, where most are simply laughing at you. You insist on being at the forefront of all things global, if Jesus still walked on Earth, he would play second fiddle to the States, if he didn't, you'd launch an attack on all churches with the end result being hundreds of American's accidentally killing other American's again when the church didn't even fight back.

Way to go boys, no wonder the USA has become the laughing stock it is.

I think, America isn't a bad country a little boring but not bad, American's aren't bad people, BUT the people in charge of the misguided and underhanded actions of the American government should be shot on sight.

by mrbill-

What are you basing the boring statement on, compared to what?

If Christ was walking the Earth he would not be in the States, remember he came to save the LOST!

You make a lot of generalizations about the US being a bunch of sheep. To that I play the BS card! The US has its share of knuckleheads, just like every Nation. But we also have our fair share of individuals. If we did not have free thinkers we would not be one of the leading research and developmental countries in the world. If I come across as being patriotic it is because I do love my country. I do not follow everything the "Gov" says but I do listen to what they say and weigh it against other ideas and choose what is right, though not always popular.

Sorry if I rambled.

by jimhm

Ozzie - you are the ugly Canadian - or should we call you the Ugly World Citizen - since you don't calm aligance to any country. You only live in Canada but dislike it (from all the other posts you have made).

From my travels I have met many, British, Aussies, South Africans, Canadians, Chineese, German and others and I have found very few (except the French and maybe 1 Canadian - sorry Ozzie just kidding) that I wouldn't mind calling a friend.

Now - I don't agree with many of their forms of government but it is their choice and beliefs. Now you can attack me or my country (Ozzie) but expect that I will defend! You have the right to bash and comment all you want on my choice of government or our leaders, but they are elected and may or may not change in 4 years. And that is our choice!

I only wish you would speak from knowledge Oz and not from La-La-Land (things in your own mind that have no basis in fact, you quote stuff but never give a source). You speak of Common knowledge - well if it were common that everyone would know it. If you or a select few only know it - then it isn't "Common Knowledge".

But all in all I think the world is a pretty dam good. And will stay that way "as long as the strong rise up to distroy the tyrants and oppressors of the weak." (OK - Ozzie baby, come with your comments of how the U.S.A. are the tyrants and oppressors of the world today.)

I guess these Political threads started because most of the tech articles lately have been pretty boring - and not worth commenting on. But what the heck - its a world community and always interesting reading ....and debating politics is like debating religon or Software or Hardware.. Microsoft or Open Source - Apple or Intel - IBM or Sun - Everyone has their beliefs and biasas..

by oz_media

And thank you for at least having an opinion. You seem to stand out from the crowd quite often, perhapse because you form your own opinions and judgements based on a collective of information that you absorb, my hats off to you.

I make a lot of generalizations becaus ei find that one statement applies to Many if not Most Americans. You'll see a tonne of people jumping on the me too bandwagon here just to avoid being different or being singled out. To these people I say baaaaaaaaaaaa!

To you, I say, thanks for your opinion.

by tomsal

That's all it really is "Me against the world". Note that "me" is meaning YOU as well as me (as if YOU are saying it in other words).

The world isn't going to change for you (or me), I don't give a rat's arse what nation you call home. Life is life. Its what you make of it and then you die.

Some people have easy (or at least easier) lives compared to other - where they have the luxury of being sheltered from some horrible realities.

Others have it miserably difficult. Either way its what you make of it (it being your circumstances), just because you live a certain country doesn't mean you have to be bound by the "normal" rules/policies of the majority in that country.

In the end its just YOU (me) against the world.

by oz_media

I find in North America, more than other countries I've been to, it is more of a sheltered life.
This may or may not be the reason for Americans feeling constantly PERSONALLY threatened and why they have become so defensive, like I say, may or may not, just an opinion you pro-American ranters.

ANYONE, can make millions in Canada or the US, that same positive attitude is not seen as a reality in Europe, for example. Instead, the hard reality of life is something you grow up with, when you see the devastation and hardship that so many years of world war has created, it is hard to see the world as your oyster. People also don't seem to get as upset when the government denies them the little privaledges that North American's have become so accustomed to. I don't remember tha last time I heard a brit complaining that his rights to free speech had been violated, it's more like "Shut the F-K up or you'll go to jail for whining".

I agree when you say it's me against the world, probably why I don't understand the American infatuation with politics. Who gives a crap if the government wants to screen people, install cam,eras or whatever they get their jollies from, I've got a life to live and don't have the time to be concerned about what the government is doing, who likes or dislikes my country, what other people in other countries are doing etc.

Many people will see this as being naive, whereas in fact I think it is being quite astute. My daily life and the effects of my life upon others in it is much more important than what my government thinks of Iraq's oil.

Let the politicians be politicians, I've got a life to get on with.

by john_wills

I wrote the following as part of an analysis of the karma leading to Al Qa'ida.
The Black Legend of U. S. wickedness parallels the earlier Black Legend of Spanish wickedness. Both result from predominance in the world. Both tend to be believed both outside and inside the hegemonic society. Anything evil the great power does gets exaggerated; anything good gets forgotten or misrepresented.
I once read a letter in The Economist describing seven great evil deeds by the United States. Judging justly, the U.S. was clearly on the right side in five of the cases, the guilty party was doubtful in the sixth, and I could not determine the truth of the seventh. People concocted preposterous ? and even contradictory - justifications for North Vietnam?s 1956 attack on South Vietnam, but not until the 1960s, when the U. S. was trying to help the South Vietnamese: the Black Legend of U. S. malice motivated those stories. Many such stories are bandied around, simply because the U. S. is the world?s dominant polity. It is also Christendom?s dominant polity, so all the attacks made on it, whether true or false, are of use to the enemies of Christendom. The Black Legend concentrates hatred on the U. S. in particular and on Christendom in general. Muslims are more conscious of Christendom than most people, and of the centrality of the U. S. to Christendom.

by tomsal

Right on Oz, as strange as it may seem (get it -- I'm American? lol) I thoroughly enjoyed your post and for the most part fully understand what you are saying. And what you say makes sense, you probably are right -- compared to the rest of the world North Americans live sheltered, or at least "more" sheltered lives on average when compared to the rest of world population.

Personally, I disagree more than I agree with my government -- they waste too much money or stupid sh*t and programs like our welfare system.....my blood boils over how pathetically EASY it is to exploit. We have millions of bums who leech off my tax dollars. And then the people who honestly have hardship and want to do better can't get the help they need, and if they do get it it strangely seems to take longer than those that exploit the system.

As far as right to privacy, I do care a little...meaning I will go apesh*t to protect my right to privacy in my own home. But outside, put your camera's - Don't care. Do whatever you want, just don't mess with my financial data, don't screw with my loved ones and know that in my house -- that's MY little country and I am the President there. ;)

PS. Another that peeves me is that this country is weak as all heck on thugs and criminals. Trust me I've lived here for nearly 30 years -- we are collectively wussies on crime.

by john_wills

An aside: there is a lot of crime not just because of the over-blamed Second Amendment but because the police are corrupt, which is because the prosecutors are corrupt, which is because you can't sue them. In Canada no servant of the Queen may allege that the Queen ordered him to commit any tort. In the U.S. (cf. California Government Code Sec. 821.6, Imbler vs Pachtman, etc.), it is impossible to sue a government officer for malicous prosecution.

by jimhm

They came for my co-worker and I didn't complain Then they came for my neighbor and I didn't complain - then they came for my friend and I didn't complain - then they came for me - and there was no one left to complain!(If I recall it was about the Jewish round-up by the Nazi during WWII)

Government unchallenged by the people... We didn't know they were killing people - wasn't it a retraining camp!

In short - you have to watch your government officals - question there moves - vote them out of office if they don't do what is right. Just letting them do what they want - isn't in individuals freedoms best interest. Government will grow unchecked because some Ahole will think they know whats best for everyone, or that we are only doing this to make you safe, or its in your best interest..

That's why USA has 3 branches of government to put checks and balances on each of the other branchs - And its why Americans scream loadly at any government action to cutting away our individual freedoms. Two many of our citizens have fought and died for those - and that is why many Americans will fight to the death today to perserve our way of life.

Many foriegners that I have met - have trouble believing the freedom of travel in America. They want to know were the boarder guards are and check points... "How can you drive for 3 days and not be checked?"

With freedom comes responsibilities - with responsibilities comes risks - and with risks comes the possiblity of death or injury.. We Americans Accept the Freedoms the Responsibilites and Risk - to our way of life.

by tomsal

I'm all for what you said -- watch government and be aware of what's going on lest you be taken advantage of.

Freedom is worth dying for.

I am just of the opinion that some things (like the security cameras at street crossings, in malls, etc.) can be taken at face value without going into paranoid mode.

There are sayings for everything...but my favorite is simply "Walk softly and carry a big stick..."

That's MY philosophy of life. Be cautious, ask questions of your officials, research what's going on if you are concerned..but you don't have to go into violent protest mode on every single little thing that goes on. (What's that other saying "choose your battles").

So I agree with your base sentiments, but I guess I have a bit more laid back approach.

I think its great to love your country and its worthwhile to be tenacious to fight for your freedoms. I just think today people stomp at every little thing, people sue at every stinking chance they get, people make moutains out of mole hills with such regularity that its literally boring to hear about anymore.

And I think its a shame some Americans just got that paranoid and that petty.

by jimhm

No one in America wants to take responsibility for what they do ... Its someone elses fault because it happened.. I spilled coffee in my lap - McDonalds is at fault because it was to hot and I burned my 80 year old p&**y ... Get a life..

You are so correct - the paranoia started and it just feeds on itself - most of it comes from the movies that show how things are used the wrong way...

But agree - with you .. Take Responsibility for your own actions..

by oz_media

You only live in Canada but dislike it (from all the other posts you have made).
Show me one, I have NEVER said I dislike Canada, it is gorgeous! I don't believe in everything the government says, it is as screwed up as any other government.
England is my home, I'm a British citizen, the same goes for England, great country, up and down for th egovernment. Please enlighten me as to when I said I didn't like Canada, I think, as most people here, you only read what you want to hear.

"From my travels I have met many, British, Aussies, South Africans, Canadians, Chineese, German and others and I have found very few (except the French " You single out the French (and myself) but is that because you're jumping on the political bandwagon or were the people in France mean to you?

"...want on my choice of government or our leaders, but they are elected " Who elected BUSH ??

"You speak of Common knowledge - well if it were common that everyone would know it." - or your just turning a blind ignorant eye (probably because the report is considered socialist or something so you're not interested).

"But all in all I think the world is a pretty dam good. And will stay that way "as long as the strong rise up to distroy the tyrants and oppressors of the weak." - sniff....thank you oh great protector of my freedom, I humbly bow to your brilliance and now realize that in order to be great and powerful world police, we should live our lives, in fear and at war.

by oz_media

Perhapse, before I pullout the rubber checkbook, you could tell me just HOW you have given my family and I freedom ?!? It wasn't WWI or WWII, it wasn't your little skirmish in Vietnam or Noth Korea, it wasn't the Gulf War, it wasn't the Oraqi war. Just who have you saved us from??

by jimhm

We the people elected Bush - Al Gore lost - the US president is not elected by popular vote - it is by the electorial college... and the majority of the states voted for Bush ... not the total number of people that voted ...

Dah - Again - Sir Oz - you lack of knowledge on the American systems shine through brightly..

Thanks -

by oz_media

It must be a pain to try and get your massive brain onto a single pillow. Your spew once again has taught me so much, I just don't know how to thank someone who somply keeps giving the way you do!

I've seen more than one thread from American citizens who hate the fact the Bush is president and claim that he wasn't elected, the botched election F-d u pthe vote. Only half of the states voted for him, out of those, only half of the people voted for him. Somehow he has become your president and declared War while pumping his fist in the air and hammering the dido from which he rules. Sounds like a flashback, vee don't haf to take it like diz!! Vee vill fight til the end!! Hail Hilter!!, Hail Hitler !!
Was Bush ever a skinhead??

by tomsal

Hey I know this isn't my thread, but I'm a fan of WWII history so I had to throw my .02 cents in.

WWII certainly was about freedom, had the Axis powers won -- the world would be very *VERY* different than what it is today. Going out on a limb here, I'll dare to say the difference wouldn't be for the better either.

But being that the Brits and the Americans (not just one or the other) were monumental in defeating the Axis as a unified fighting force* I will not say that America alone is the reason the Axis fell, that would be ego-driven, stupid and just plain wrong.

That's not how it happened.

But we (America) did contribute *significantly* to that end.

*=Yes I know the Allies were more than just the Brits and the Americans, but they were the two major forces that compromised the Allies. Since I'm American and my own relatives shed their blood in WWI, WWII and the Korean war I feel I have the right to speak of the American forces and the British forces. However I mean no disrepect to other allies.

PS. See how we bicker in these forums, and just think when our countries are unified --- damn we kick some major arse! ;)

by oz_media

You're 100% right in saying that it was a unified Allied effort that ended the war.

Here's what your American brothers plaster at every chance.

"...America, who saved Britian from speaking German and saved France's ass a second time.. "
http://tinyurl.com/jsup

You wonder why the world see's American's as arrogant and misinformed idiots??

by maxwell edison

And it's you who is viewed, as you said, as an arrogant and misinformed idiot.

And by the way, in reference to something you said in a different thread, it wasn't a whois search that led me to know who you are and where you work, but rather the return email address that you, yourself, sent me. (I guess we can add dumb ass to that as well.) And I don't believe for a minute the crap you spew about being self employed and so forth. You are who you are, and work where you work, regardless of how much you try to deny it. You may lie about many things, but your email return path does not lie - especially when it ALSO appears as a contact on your company's Web site!

Have a nice day, Harold.

by tomsal

..but yep..I find it a bit interesting how people say that (Disclaimer: I've said it myself in joking tones before, hey..I'm American, its against the law to like the French..lol) we saved the French's arse in WWII. Which of course isn't entirely inaccurate, but if people would read a little history on a war called the American Revolution -- they'd see how the French saved America's arse.

That said..I must not sell out my American heritage....Screw the French! Viva la America! :)

by lordinfidel

Short and stout,

here is my something,
here is my spout........

Just being stupid on purpose. Started to feel left out of the political posts that I usually avoid like the plague.

Besides, I figure I piss enough people off without getting political.

I will say this though as I scroll thru the titles of the threads/posts. Just keep a perspective that it's a multi-national site and not everyone is going to agree with your view point.

When it comes to politics, You can debate the other person's views, just don't abmonish/insult them.

If you come to a stale-mate on a particular debate. Instead of reducing yourselve's to name-calling and slander. Admit that it is a stalemate, that neither party changed the other's view, agree to disagree, kiss and make-up then move on.

Just my stupid babbling idiot opinion.

by maxwell edison

Thanks, Lordinfidel, for the very appropriate and most timely comment. I'll be the first to admit that these off-topic discussions have gotten way out of hand, and often times quite inappropriate. (I wouldn't necessarily want them to go away entirely, however, but they certainly need to be kept in the proper perspective.)

And you said it quite well.

by jimhm

George no problem getting through doors - or holding my head up high... I am a very proud american - arrangent OK - but thats us, I guess and the French aren't..

But I will be always available to correct your understanding of the American system and point you in the correct direction - when you are talking out of your a*( ...

PS - I know you could of guested it but - I voted for George - and proud that he is our leader - over that whimp Gore. And I will vote for the man again this comming election ... So get ready for another 4 years of George W.. Got to love the American System..

by mrbill-

Ya it's our system. It has worked for us for almost 250 years.

I did not vote for Junior, but he is the Prez in spite of what happened in Florida. Bush really did not win the state Ralph Nader lost it for Gore. Oh well as we say that?s life. I will not vote for him because of his lack of a good foreign policy. Not to mention how he has messed up our economy, we went from a solvent nation to one that is trillions of $s (US) in debt. Thanks Georgie.

But like I said he is our Prez so we must support him, if not he would lack credibility. Just my opinion.

by oz_media

The return email address that you got was from NATG. I work under contract for them.
They are an internet Service Provider (ISP).
They also provide me with my email VIA their domain.

I also work under contract for TelPlus Systems, would you like to see there domain registration also?

Oh yes, I also have my own domain that is used for band related email only so I use the NATG domain for personal.

You are correct in guessing my name, but Havrey ued to be (not sure if he still is) thier netwrok administrator for the head office, which you so proudly thought is where I work.

I don't care what you believe or disbelieve, you've already shown me that you have no thought process so I wouldn't want you to go against what you KNOW is right.

Do you really think that if I worked full time in IT, that I would have time to sit here and laugh at you guys all day? Mind you, you probably THINK a lot of things. take a rest, have a nap, whatever it is you do. Forget I exist, don't post to me or anser my posts, don't bother, I don't care what you think, I don't believe a word you say (since your post with the BS ilnks) and just get on with your life. It's too short to worry about someone knowing your a loser.

by mrbill-

Don't worry Oz, it's not important who you are, it's what you think and how you stand your ground, when appropreate. Though sometimes we do not see eye-to-eye, I still apreciate your opinions.
I am very new to these threads so there is still time to piss me off (SARCASM ALERT).

by jardinier

I have stated in other postings that I have liked all the Americans whom I have met, and that I have no beef with America or Americans in general.

You come across as one American who can be patriotic and objective at the same time.

Of COURSE most Americans -- just like most of the citizens in any other country -- are decent and reasonable people. And of COURSE America has contributed, and continues to contribute greatly to scientific and technological advances. And let's not forget where jazz music originated.

And congratulations on using your Christian faith to keep you in this balanced, non-judgemental frame of mind.

And if you consider your posting as "rambling," then please ramble some more. You are one American I WOULD like to hear more from.

by jimhm

I figure if I didn't love my country.

I wouldn't want to change it or even cared if it was doing wrong in my eyes.

I wouldn't write my congressman or senator about things I felt the government was doing was wrong or against the constitution.

I wouldn't vote for the leaders of my country, and just let others make that choice.

I wouldn't care if the military - marched down Main street USA and declared George W the dictator of the USA.

I wouldn't care about the freedoms that I have or that they try to take away.

But you see if you love your country - you defend it right or wrong to outsiders, and you try to change it from the inside. Just as if it were a member of your family!

Go figure us Yanks - we are all screwed up with stupid ideas aren't we -

Yep - us Americans got to be the stupidest people ever to walk this tiny planet - with all those stupid ideas in the constitution and bill of rights.

But hey - America - I will defend it to my last breath - right or wrong to outsiders. Do you let outsiders speak ill of your family?

Americans, when it gets down to it as on 9-11, pull together and become - One Voice - One Family - One Nation - And said - Never Again -

So Oz - Peace -

by oz_media

Now that's the kind of patriotism I can appreciate. I don't hate American's for being patriotic, just those who constantly spout how wonderful and correct America always is while anyone with eyes can see there is much improvement needed.

As I've said before, I love Canada and the freedoms I have this doesn't mean that I support all the decisions the government makes without questioning their motives.

When this is put to many people here, they say that I hate Canada (yes someone actually said that)and that I wish I could be American. If I wanted American citizenship, it would be a VERY quick process.

I don't feel anyone who believes in their country is wrong, America is a wonderful country, it's just that I see so many people supporting ALL the decisions of Bush without questioning them. This is a sign of true dictatorship and conformity.

When you post such a heart felt opinion of the country and your beleifs in it, I applaud you for your explanation. At least you seem to have some form of thought behind what you support and what you don't.

The union of Americans toward their fallen brothers in 911 was something I'm sure many would love to see in their homeland too, it was fantastic how you all helped these poor peolpe recover their lives, or at least try to.

When I see one person say that they believe in the Iraqi war to rid the WMD, another says it is because of Saddam and some who even say America is threatened by Iraq who may attack I start to think that nobody REALLY has a valid reason for suporting the war effort but simply vouch for whatever CNN said today's reason for war was.

Peace to you to, Jim.

by oz_media

Hey, I'm not a BIG fan of France either. Nice place to visit (I used to live three hours away, when the hovercraft was the best way).

I actually get more pissed off by the lazy French Canadians who keep coming out West in search of work each summer. The majority of them end up as squeegee kids. Our Okanagan Valley is famous dfor it's peaches, grapes etc. They used to come west to pick fruit for the summer. Two years ago, there was a major problem with the crops and the pickers were limited. These guys all found there way to Vancouver, some the Island and now complain about being on welfare and there's no work for pickers etc. I say GO THE HELL HOME!!!!

As for the REAL French people, they're harmless so I don't see a problem with them. Passive is OK, retarded bothers me.

Have a good one TomSal, thanks for your honesty without the links to government websites, it's refreshing to see someone who can actually form an opinion.

OM

by jimhm

You are correct - that was back middle to late when 1770's when we were kicking a little British and Cornwalace arse! When the French finally arrived after they helped, but what was it - 1 or was it 2 years after they promised to aid

It's not that we don't like the French - the people are more arrogant than we are. I mean you can't call it a personal computer, CPU, memory, monitor (what was it 200 computer terms that they outlawed!) because it's not a French word..

When are they going to change Mickey Mouse's name - Come on .. we maybe pretty prideful and arrogant as a nation ... but the French take that one hands down..

When I was there I could speak the language somewhat (I don't go somewhere without knowing the langauge enough to get by) - but had problems, do you think they would help (like the spanish or mexicans do with my spanish..) No way - they would look at you like you just ate a live duck.. Nose so far up in the air - that if it rained they would drown..

It's not that we hate them so much - we just had enough and stopped spending our money with them. What was that about their wine industry - going south for the winter - sales off by 65% - keep it up America..

by oz_media

OI would agree to almost everything you said except:
"the people are more arrogant than we are."

C'mon,you've GOT to be kidding. If I was to ask the opinion of someone in ANY other country in the world what they thought of American's they would have many slanderous comments but all would say that Americans are THE most arrogant people on God's green earth. Just read these POSTS to confirm that. I don't think there is a sole alive who thinks americans aren't loud, obnoxious and arrogant. It's what your reputation is buit upon.

If you like, I'll send some emails around a few European contacts and show you what they all think of America.

by jimhm

I wouldn't go that far - but I am a littel Basis. But I will say we have some real aholes that travel - I as an American get pissed about them... Go to a country and expect them to speak english and you not even try to speak their langauge... Then in the same breath these aholes - bitch about "These foriegners coming to American and not speaking English." - Ah Dah...

They are what I call "No Class Rich" - or - just no Class...

Na! we don't hate the French - we just don't like their attitute after the Iraq war - so we show it with our money.

Pretty - arrogant of us Americans aint it. Gee not spend our dollars where they don't like us. More Americans have gone to England, Mexico, Canada - and the Islands -than ever.

Just a Little boycout protest by those arrogant Americans..hitting them in their pocket books..

by oz_media

I noticed your fabtastic attempt at hurting thier wine industry. You all went out and bought a bottle so you could pour it away in protest.

I'm sure they'd like to know when the next protest is scheduled, they could ship extra wine to the US to keep up with the mass demand.

Way to make a point !

Canyou protest one of my less successful band's CD's next??

by jimhm

Got to agree with you Oz Man on that one - it took a real mental gaint to came up with that protest.. now wasn't it. Purchase a $50.00 bottle of wine - and pour it down the drain in protest?

Hey they still sold the bottle! Hello -

by oz_media

"But like I said he is our Prez so we must support him, if not he would lack credibility."

He already lacks credibility in the eyes of the rest of the world. I think this almost hits the root of my ONLY beef with American citizens. You will support your President whether he is right or wrong?!? This just doesn't make ANY sense at all to me. he's just a dude with a job in politics, not a God or the fouder of america. He hasn't written the Constitution, which everyone is proud of, he didn't create your freedoms.
Yet you all back his every move with full defensive actions against those who question his motives. Perhapse why I've also been quoted as calling American's sheep or conformists.

Perhapse, based on your earlier statement you can see WHY I see this? In any other place he WOULD lose credibility, and that's not even looking at your economy which you say he's destroyed.

Thank you for enforcing my point!

by jimhm

Oz Man - you still don't understand us Yank's -

We may disagree with out leaders - we may think they are wrong as calling white - black.

But - here is the difference between the Crazy Yanks and the rest of the world (my op).. We back him anyway and try to change it internally. We don't need any help from the rest of the world to tell us he is wrong.

We put on a strong unified front - for showing weakness to the rest of the world by not backing our leaders is like the Army not backing the General - How fast do you think an attack would come. (I expect you will say never... OK dream on)..

The Cold war has taught the American people a few things, the Vietnam war taught us other things - The Vietnam war was longer because the NVA knew with all the Anti-war protests in America that they could win if they held out long enough. We wouldn't of won - but would of gotten out of there long before 74... the only thing that got them back to the table was "Linebacker II" - and unrestricted bombing...

So - if the world see that the people aren't backing their leaders - Just like your family - you need to have a unified front - and internal arguments isn't for the rest of the world..

by mrbill-

Ok say there is to a musical group of 10 people (big band anyone). And the group decides that someone has to be in charge. Two guys are chosen to decide between, George and Al. So everyone votes and chooses George, 6 to 4, with the understanding that he will be in charge for the next 12 months, and then they will re-decide. Now George has to make a choice between playing in Duluth or Grand Forks and chooses Duluth. Seven of the group members like the idea, but three wanted to go to Grand Forks. Do those three support George and go to Duluth or do they scream and yell until the band splits or maybe they go to Duluth and don?t play making the whole band look bad. If you were a concert promoter from Milwaukee would you hire them? How long would this group last. Now if they are adults they will accept the decision of the leader, they can raise their concerns with George and let him know how they feel. The next time they decide to choose a leader they can try to get someone else.

If they catch George doing something wrong, like pocketing band funds they have the right to kick his a*&, but not for making an unpopular decision.

Now think on a larger scale, 285,000,000 people, 105 million voted in 2000.

by oz_media

Actually Mr.Bill, a group of ten who was on tour would NOT appoint their own leader. You need proper prootions and management. WHY?
To take the onus off the band members.

So, when the cabinet feels they should bomb another country, the manager (Bush) would be responsible for making the right decision. This helps insure that the band are NOT affected by the politics and can simply play.

Bush's reluctance to make professional decisions and simply do what the cabinet suggests is a sign of really poor leadership. NOW, if the cabinet DIDN't back his decisions and did what they wanted, there would be problems similar to mutiny.
They don't though, there job is to support their boss. What's yours? To perhapse let the boss know how you feel so he can make a more rational decision next time the cabinet whines?

Don't put yourselves at the top of the ladder, your FAR from it, it's arrogant and foolish to think that not having a voice helps retain dignity.

by tomsal

I agree Oz and Jim, that made me laugh (out loud) for real when I heard it on the news.

That day the French had the free right to laugh at us and go "Stupid Americans"...lol

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