"Big Brother"

I was thinking of the difference between dressing to fit in with your friends (or the "in crowd") and being so stupid they need to be confined to a strait-jacket.

(Discalimer: I quit asking my daughter "If all your friends jumped off a cliff, would you jump too?" when she started answering "Yes".)

Freedom, as we know it was abandoned ...

(I could write a book)

You bring up two crimes (rape and murder) for which the early part of the 20th century had already defined punishment for. (Maybe not elegantly, maybe not fairly, but that is a discussion for another day.)

It did not used to be a crime to obtain, and sit in the privacy of your own home and look at pictures of scantilly clad (or unclad) waifs who may or may not be 21 years old. Now you get branded for life, have to wear the Scarlett Letter, (and so on) for this. All of this while the unsolved violent crime rate ambles along at a brisk clip, because it is just that much easier for the police to grab a feeble old guy looking at dirty pictures than to face down a violent individual (my "unintended consequences" argument). The police can show statistics to "show" that they are "doing something about crime" when the REAL offenders are still walking the streets, unfettered by any retribution for thier actions. (My "intended consequences" argument.)

(Disclaimer: No disrespect intended for the hard-working members of law enforcement who get out there every day working on violent crime, and occasionally kill a bad guy in the process, thereby saving the state the expense of a trial.)

What you're doing is expressly forbidden in the ECPA and is very, very illegal. While yes, it's your computer, and it's your network, the user still has a reasonable expectation of privacy. While you certainly have good intentions, without a legal notice on every computer and signed permission from the parents/guardians, you are going to get yourself into a world of trouble.

Since it is against the law to take such pictures, it is only logical that it is also against the law to view them. "The people" have declared it so.

I agree with one part. It is not uncommon for an agency or department to create or enhance its own statistics showing that it is a good use of the money it costs. I mean, I used to be evaluated, in part, by how many problems I fixed per day. I had a problem with that particular measurement from day one, first because it treated handing someone an ink cartridge the same as rebuilding a server that went down, and two, it seemed to me that one could pad one's evaluation by "creating" problems to fix (I'm glad the fire department isn't evaluated that way :))

You said: "What I expect is accountability for consumption of my tax dollars. More than the employees of the public school system, I expect accountability of the consumers of this government gift."

You want accountablility at the cost of fiscal accountability. Using a key logger reaks of witch hunt and boondoggle.

A) It could be as easy as unplugging the logger (if it is a hardware key logger) from the client. If it is a software key logger, links,

will subvert them. So how is ANYONE more accountable? The answer: It makes no one more accountable, but it wastes tax payer money on a technology that is easily subverted for the task at hand. Further, there are far more efficient technologies that are FAR less expensive and resource intesive then key logging. Parsing a few thousand key logs is time consuming and a waste of ITs time (and money).

B) Government gift? What are you going on about? The government (if run properly) would use technology that is FITTING FOR THE APPLICATION! Rather than do that, they have invested and implemented a technology for no purpose.

"Try to dictate to me what I should expect as much as you like. It won't work."

You go on about government responsibility, par of that is being fiscally responsible! Using a key logger is not fiscally responsible nor is it efficient or effective. How does is that any more responsible than nothing at all?

"As a measure of the confidence you have lost,"

Claiming to have won the argument does not mean you have won. You've made no points in support of your orginal statement. Further, you dance around the idea of responsiblity on the part of IT AND he user, not just the user.

"please answer this: do you support abolishing all public education in favor of competitive, free markets for education, that allow each family absolute freedom to decide where and how their children are educated? Any parent that does not care enough about the nature of their childrens' education to home school, cares too little to be entitled to any of my money."

This is a straw man and provides no insight into our discussion. If you would like to start a new thread, I'd be happy to give you my views.

You go on about student failure yadda yadda yadda. The point is we are talking about implementing a technology that in no way truely does what the OP states.

The rights to use public property in an academic setting are far different from your narrow corporate views. You seem to think that by NOT allowing research or usage of the computer systems at all, that all will be well.

In education you have to take the good with the the bad. You MUST have an open view and rely on good black listing, a strong computer usage policy, and stronger security in other areas (and a little thing called trust), rather than reducing the access to nothing at all. By refusing access (willy nilly as you would suggest) you've crippled the education process. I know the next statement from you will be something along the lines of the slippery slope or some such nonsense, but the bottom line is that the students need access. Block myspace.com in the host.deny if it is such a problem. However, don't cripple the educational process and go on witch hunts just because *YOU* want some form of pointless (and inaccurate) accountablility.

"(Discalimer: I quit asking my daughter "If all your friends jumped off a cliff, would you jump too?" when she started answering "Yes".)"

Mine always answered it with "How high is the cliff?"

(You spend the first two years of their lives teaching them to walk and talk, and it seems like the next 16 telling them to sit down and shut up :))

if a few parents were jailed for their children's anti-social behaviors, the rest would get the message and [b]become[/b] parents.

the original post, I am not so sure a keylogger is even involved. I even wonder if it wasn't just a veiled attempt by a student to find a way around whatever security the school employs.

And that is that allow someone else access to private data like Internet Banking the user names & passwords would be clearly visible to the Sys Admin at the very least.

So this limited technology might help to cut down bulling slightly but for anything about limiting Web Access it's useless.

Col

I Absolutely will not defend that piece of ****.

Back to your first paragraph, though, that's an interesting wedge. My position is that the word "public" literally means "available to all" or "collectively owned". Maybe the first definition should truly only apply to un-owned or publicly owned spaces that are truly intended for the use of any citizen, while "public schools" and other collectively owned facilities that are intended for a specific, limited subset of the population require a different definition.

I do know that I'm not in favor of giving children free run of tools that are billed to me, but I won't argue for unlimited government power anywhere, ever.

Good points.

jmgarvin: "Parsing a few thousand key logs is time consuming and a waste of ITs time".

I totally agree, and I never stipulated that IT [b]must[/b] use this technology [b]stupidly[/b], and I don't understand why you would leap to that assumption, except that you're trying to argue against the stupidest case scenario and hope that I won't notice. In fact, it would be a waste of time to review every key stroke of every brat, but once a particularly problematic brat is identified, why not [b]allow[/b] the use of a key logger? Or if a teacher is suspected of using cafeteria supplies to fund a familia catering service?

If carpenters were only allowed to use one tool, whatever tool you choose, we'd have some pretty stupid-looking furniture! But just because a router doesn't generally make the straightest cut, doesn't mean good carpenters shouldn't have one available, when it is the best tool for their goal. Sometimes, even key loggers are useful, and one of those times is when an admin wants to control the use of a network on behalf of the owner of that network, not on behalf of the users of it.

I believe that was challenged a bit during the 60's & 70's, but in public schools, for kids under 18, I think it still stands. Any lawyers on the Internet?

No?

Hmmm. AMBULANCE!!!

"I think this whole thread is about kid-hating"

Giving children the impression that they are not accountable but that their teachers are makes a statement about positions of authority and responsibility that will motivate them to shun the very positions that are most important. That statement would be the hateful one to make.

If the key strokes are logged on a server, which only the admin can access, then the security breach of Ernest's argument doesn't have to happen just to use a key logger. Does anybody know the name(s) of commercial tools that fit this description? That would settle this whole argument to my satisfaction.

Do you have no other way to conceed a point than to bring up FURTHER straw men?

"I totally agree, and I never stipulated that IT must use this technology stupidly, and I don't understand why you would leap to that assumption, except that you're trying to argue against the stupidest case scenario and hope that I won't notice."

IT COMES FROM THE OP! The OP is stating that the school is using some form of key logging to ensure that the faculty, staff, and students don't visit blacklisted sites. That *IS* the worst case scenario right there.

"In fact, it would be a waste of time to review every key stroke of every brat, but once a particularly problematic brat is identified, why not allow the use of a key logger? Or if a teacher is suspected of using cafeteria supplies to fund a familia catering service?"

Fine...but:
A) How do we identify these people with a pointless security system in place?
B) How do we maintain that it was truely that person, considering that they are using key logging to try to block surfing habits. I'd laugh them out of court.

"Yadda Yadda Yadda"

How about we clear this up:
A) More straw men
B) Ok, great...choice in tools, but use the right friggin' tool for the job. The OP is using a nail gun as a screw driver.

Do you realize that lot covers everything not directly owned or operated by your Government but everything that is available for the Public to have use of?

That of course would mean that it is perfectly acceptable to intercept every electronic transaction that is ever used be it E-Mail, Web Browsing, Chat Room activities or even your Local Banking when you ever use it right?

You have a far too limited sense of the words and meaning of [b]Public Property[/b] and need to drastically improve your outlook on life in general. :x

Col ]:)

Could not reply to your post as it had reached maximum depth.

Teaching is a profession and, like many other professions, you do not always get your lunch time to yourself or have as much freedom at lunch as you would like. It is common for teachers to have to have their lunch whilst supervising students, and other work related activities. During the day, like the students, they are required to stay on campus unless they have approval to love from senior management - then they have to notify the front office whent hey leave and when they are back.

Also allowing access to a banking site is not the same as allowing access to a porn site.

Nudity is not the issue (being offended by the statue of David is bizarre)and children have always relied upon Art, geographic and medical sources to satisfy their curiosity about their own and others' bodies - the Internet does not change that. The issue then is that they may have been found to be "off task" rather than indulging in "bad" behaviour.
Pornography is a much more destructive agency than this with its encouragement to reify and abuse other individuals.
In an earlier response, I talked about my choice not to filter Internet access but to log activity and, as a last resort deny logon rights to persistent offenders. However, this highlights a possible legal issue that you and others have brought up. What if a child were to access porn under such a regime - could a parent sue the school because we made it POSSIBLE for the child to be harmed (by not filtering) and in so doing failed in our duty of care regardless of any Acceptable Use Policy?
My personal preference is open monitoring of logs (of students and staff) for fully explained reasons and known consequences. This is ultimately the better preserver of individual freedom than filtering.

Particularly if there is any form of abuse involved. Even with late teenage children if any sexual act are entered into between someone in authority like a teacher for example and a student even though school College may have finished hours previously when the offense comes to light that will be the wording on the charge sheet.

Col

"Teaching is a profession and, like many other professions, you do not always get your lunch time to yourself or have as much freedom at lunch as you would like."

The employer is requiring it, so it is the employers's time.

"Also allowing access to a banking site is not the same as allowing access to a porn site."

Agreed, but it all falls under "personal use of company property".

"Nowdays the laws are such that if you hit a child on the rump hard enough to stun a fly you can be arrested for child abuse and brutality."

A common misconception, spread by liberals. Genuine discipline has never been successfully prosecuted in the US.

Nah, I wouldn't trade them for anything. I've raised quite a few (although biologically I have only one) and I freeely admit to spanking, and even a little tap to the mouth on occasion. One child thought that I wasn't allowed to do that and threatened to call the police. I dialed the number for her. The police came, heard both of us out, and told her I did nothing wrong.

I am encouraged at your aggressive action to protect our young people from less than enlightening websites. This has proved most challenging for us with what is reputed to be the most advanced content filtering available according to Federal government tests. Students are using secured Chinese proxy sites to bypass this high technology solution. I am ready for keystroke monitoring now to supplement our blocking all HTTPS through our firewall. What software did you choose for keystroke monitoring?
Jim Gerlach

If I could tell what you "where" trying to say, I could decide weather I agree or disagree.

HAL9000: "Do you realize that lot covers everything not directly owned or operated by your Government but everything that is available for the Public to have use of?"

Yes, which is why I am willing to even discuss this point: maybe I [b]was[/b] too general in that statement -- maybe. But I think kids should be kept on a short leash when using public facilities.

HAL9000: "You have a far too limited sense of the words and meaning of Public Property and need to drastically improve your outlook on life in general"

My outlook will improve when my life improves. Nobody is more eager for that than I am.

The OP is suggesting that the screwdriver be used as a nail gun or whatever.

Should key loggers be available in the school scenario for the purpose of investigating inappropriate posts to sites on the allow list, then? That is what I consider a sensible use of a key logger, that is the use I intended, and I didn't mean to defend using a key logger stupidly, only to defend the use of it in public schools, assuming a case where it is useful.

Go back to the 3 R's and remove every computer from the student reach that would cure everything right?

After all I did without computers when I was at Uni so why should some snotty nosed child have access to one? Of course without the ability to research things the school would need to spend far more money on their Libraries but that's chicken feed in comparison to learning all that can be taught OK?

Incidentally just remember that you can't go anywhere where I don't have my eye on you. :^0

Next I'll be bringing in the Thought Police to take you to a reeducation center to adjust your views and comply with the rest of us all. :p

Col ]:)

You have the right to not be beaten, but not the right not to be chastised.

yeah, of course that's true.

if i had to choose between home schooling and having their keystrokes logged, i'd take the logging, of course.

(i'd hope to be rid of them for at least a few hours a day ;-)

but seriously, the origianl post does call up a lot of issues, at least to me, especially in the times we live in today. (phone & email tapping, cameras on streetcorners, DRM-equipped operating systems ;-) etc.)

i hope that increased ability to surveil (sp?) doesn't cause more surveillance without good reason.

And since I'm such a novice that I wouldn't know, would you like to help out one of your Peers and answer this question?

https://www.techrepublic.com.com/5208-11184-0.html?forumID=47&threadID=192445

Go on [b]Spread The Love Around[/b] and do something for someone without expecting anything in return.

If you had of enabled Peer Mail I wouldn't have listed this publicly. :p

Col

The goal of implementing the keylogger, as defined by the poster of this discussion, is "stopping students and teachers from visiting xrated, My space, the favorite chat programs, and many others." There are better, more user friendly, ways of doing so than keylogging.

Now, if your goal is to "save the lives and minds of those you can find" I suggest talking with security professionals and finding a solutiong to the problems you speak of. But nonetheless, yes, everyone needs freedom, lest we forget all of those throughout history that have died to preserve their freedoms. And no, we are not only talking about children here, the teachers are being monitored as well. We're also not talking about your children. We're talking about other people children, without their parents approval.

If I were you, I would suggest spending millions of dollars on an underground facility for your children that has it's own air renewability and water supply. You can feed them through a trap door, but yes, that will ensure that they will be alive at 20 to bitch about it. Where does it end?

I object using publicly funded computers or any other equipment for that matter. There are reasonable exceptions - use of phone to receive and maker personal calls, etc.

But these objections may become moot as wireless technology spreads and becomes more affordable.

Before I retired a couple of years ago, I taught in a public high school that used a net filtering system for years. While I support screening of internet acccess in the public schools, I have seen some strage things. For example, a few years ago, I had a couple of girls trying to doing research essays on breast cancer; their efforts were blocked at the high school. Another student could not gain access on school computers in an effort to research "horror" fiction in American literature. Others told me that access to liberal political sites were blocked, although I do not know about this personally. My point is that sometimes, because it is artificial, artificial intelligence cannot make judgments but depends on the ideas and prejudices of the people who write and publish screening and filtering programs. Thank you.

1984,1984,1984,1984,1984,1984,1984, 1984!!!