Car Bombings

In the early days of the US occupation of Baghdad, the US troops were keeping military style trucks out of the city.
A group of industrious insurgents mounted a rocket launcher on a donkey cart and were able to get the cart in and launch their rockets.

Many of the recent car bombings are taking place near entry points to "secure" areas.

My point, is that unless we remove the insurgents, or their motivation, the attacks will continue.
As security is improved, the mode and location of the attacks is what changes.

Ban cars from the city, or perform a 100% inspection, and the bombings will move to the security check points.

Ban cars from the city, and in place of car bombs will be individual suicide bombers.

I'm not sure what if any public transportation is operating in Iraq. Without cars and trucks, how would people get around their city?

With the exception of parades, and New Years Eve in New York, you seldom see a US city shut down any street for an event.
The US population simply refuses to use (or properly fund) public transportation.
So, the idea of shutting down vehicle traffic as a means to stop car bombings would not be high on the list of options.

Chas

I never hear democrats saying I am Anti-American or hate Americans. ALL Republicans say this as soon as ou disagree with them, ALL REPUBLICANS.

It's almost like they were brainwashed, "you are either with us or against us". What kind of a complete fool would utter such garbage in front of the world, his allies and supporters in other countries? What an idiot, he tried to say Kerry was being rude by twisting his comments out of context and making him appear to be telling soldiers he is not behind them.

Then he stands up in front of his much needed allies and says he will do it alone without them. Now ANY Republican who sees someone against Bush or the war will automatically conclude that they are anti-American or that they hate America, the reasoning is completely retarded. 'If fish live under water, then all that lives underwater is a fish'.
Damn you are a smart one Garion! Where do you come up with such clever retorts?

I have said MANY MANY times, I do NOT dislike America in fact I loved the states as a kid.
I have said MANY MANY times, I do NOT dislike Americans, in fact I hae operated offices in the US and hired US employees. I have dated Amrican girls, I have many friends in the US, I make a lot of my residual income from the US.

You comments just don't stad up with ANY credibility, you just spew hot air.

As for you current administration and president?

YES, I DO despise the weenie little bastard.
YES, if I ever got the privaledge of meeting him, I'd kick him in the nuts without hesitation.

he placed MY life at greater risk of attack than anyone in my lifetime has, HE is MY enemy. He is what most people OUTSIDE America fear, he is volotile to a point people cannot comprehend, he could eliminate the world with the press of a button or a poor comment, this man does NOT hae what it takes to run a country, just the same feelings of revenge that many Americans share towards an unkown enemy.

If your mental capacity is such that you cannot differentiate between these differences, then I will accept it and see you as a happy republican, uknowingly working towards the eliminiation of his own race.

Iraq's Car Bombings are not unique to Baghdad. These bombings occur throughout the country. It is not reasonable to think that we could just outlaw all forms of transportation in the country. How would commerce take place?

The real problem is we are very short handed in the country. While 130,000 troops sounds like a lot. It is in fact a pretty small force to try and establish order in a country the size of Iraq. Keep in mind that more than 1/2 of this number are support troops not front line troops. These are the guys that feed and supply the front line troops. So now you are down to somewhere around 60,000 actual combat troops. There are 24 hours in a day and they can not possibly work 24/7/365. So at any point in time you might have 30,000 or so active combat troops on duty trying to bring order to a country of 25M.

To put in perspective. New York City has 38,000 Police and my guess is you could put about 50 New Yorks in Iraq with room to spare.

Like it or not there are only 2 ways out of Iraq. One is to continue at current levels while training Iraq forces to take over. All the while putting up with the loss of life and just doing the best we can with what we have. The other would be to pull our resources worldwide and send another 100,000 Combat Troops to Iraq, and perhaps reinstitute the draft.

Yes you are right many would need to leave cars at home (seeing as most of them never even HAD cars until 5 cent gas and cheap imports were allowed in it shouldn't be too bad)in order to reduce congestion.

I think fasthands and I are seeing slightly different resolutions though.

First of, fasthands, I know you were agreeing with Marshall law but my response was directed at rickkellog regarding key area lockdown and not the whole city.

YES bombings would move to new, less effective, areas. The main focus of the current car bombings in downtown Iraq is targeted towards people (Iraqi's) signing up to defend Iraq from insurgents. Insurgent probably know very well that if everyone starts getting paid to fight, there wil be less insurgents available to fight on thier side. They kill people who are trying to police and defend Iraq. REMOVING vehicle access from these areas where they are targeted, will remove the issues of car bombs killing them in droves.

I am not suggsting it will end conflict or help in any other way except to permit a sizable force to be built in safety, without the one step forward, two back scenario that they face today.

I know in America, the easiest way to completely erase your population is to remove cars, you simply cannot function without them. This is NOT so or Iraq though. Cars are a treat for many, an insurget in a van driving upto a recruiting center would be a non-issue if they were not allowed to drive near one without authorization. Failure to comply means you will be killed.

I think if the car bombings WERE concentrated on diferent areas it wouldbe easier for troops to nail them, harder for the insurgents to succeed etc. Meanwhile, Iraq could build a formidable police force, train military etc. without constantly losing membes before they have ven started to help.

This is not downtown New York, there are critical supplies needed which can be allowed to proceed even if under military escort if neccessary. Letting them all drive willy nilly all over the place just opens up the playing field and gives them the ability to hit the targets they intend to.

Fasthands, complete shut down, now that would be progress, but they do need some civilian access for store owners and such that cannot walk, or ride a bike for whatever reason(nothing new for most Iraqi's).

If I am agreeing with Oz for limiting the car traffic in 'potential for bombing' areas...I would not go as far as you said with Martial Law. This must be avoided with all the precautions, because imagine how the anger and hate will rise in the heart of typical non-belligerent Iraq people. Martial law imposed by US will be considered as a 'real domination' and that's what we don?t want to be! Don?t play to much with the Iraqis pride...they have and somehow now they are tolerating the US...but if are signs that they are changing one dictator for another...will be more mess than now

Before asking 'where are Spider-man or Superman' I would ask...'where was my head?'

This in response to one of your earlier posts ... I find myself feeling very insecure in my own country with Bush at the helm. I say this because I tend to side with the republicans on most issues in the past. This president is bull headed and oblivious to what is going on around him ... my husband and I have decided to leave the states as even if he is removed from office, the mess that has been started is going to take years to clean up and it's going to get worse before it gets better ... so OZ when that opportunity to kick the man in the junk comes around ... I'll be in line right behind you for what this man has done in the 4 years he's been allowed to serve as our leader will be the United States undoing.

MM

One of the advantages these terrorists have over us is that only they know where they will strike next. So securing an area around a Police Station or Recruiting Office may secure that area. However, the people doing the bombing would quickly switch their targets to another area less secure.

My point is also pretty simple. Focus on training the Iraqi people and allow them to handle their own security. They have ways of finding things out that we as an occupying force will never master.

Again this is a Manpower problem. While we are training these Iraqi Police and Army over 100,000 so far, this process itself does furter tax our already limited resources.

I am confident in the command both here, and there, and am pretty certain the stratigist in the military have mapped out this process to the best of their ability ,with the resources they have to work with. The unfortunate trade off in this type of operation is that we will continue to suffer losses as we have until such time as the Iraqi Forces assume complete control of each area of the country.

I don't wanna get into a shouting match or something with you but your post shows you haven't understood my point AT ALL. Not at all, in fact your first paragraph tells me you and I are NOT talking about the same thing at all.

Why would securing a small area be efective if they are just going to move elsewhere and repeat the car bombs? This is your complaint.

Let Iraqi's BUILD thier OWN security and police force for this type of action. This is your resolution.

I AGREE! 100%

NOW, MY POINT:
The car bombing CONCENTRATED on police recruiting centers is stopping the Iraqi's from forming a stable working police department, so that they will NEVER be able to stabilize thier OWN country unless they can train recruits.
This is the problem.

CLOSING off THAT SPECIFIC area to vehicle traffic, even if only at specific times of day when recruits are being accepted, lining up in the street etc. would completely ELIMINATE the ability to park a car bomb beside a lineup.
This is the solution.

For you to continually just say that concentrating on securing a certain area is not effective and that Iraq needs to build it's OWN force to police these issues is just completely disregarding what I am saying as it is impossible without first securing Iraq's own forces.

YES, the car bombs will go elsewhere, that's the WHOLE POINT, they will not be killing recruits en mass while lining up to enlist.

If the local US army recuiting office in your town was constantly car bombed, wouldn't eliminating cars and even monitorig foot traffic in that area be a good beginning?

During a concert, there are a group of security we post nicknamed GAB's, short for Got Anything Better, they control who gets backstage and who doesn't in order to protect the stage, equipment and artists. GAB's have heard EVERY story known to man, thus the term, Got Anything Better, because people will say anything to get backstage.

There are fights in the audience, fights in the parking lots, stabbings, shootings even, people getting run down in the street outside, overdoses and all kinds of horrible things go on around a concert. The artists, crew, stage, equipment and trucks are safe and the show continues bcause of the GAB's.

So why not post a few GAB's next time there are a few hundred hopeful recruits willing to sign up for the most dangerous job in Iraq? Put a barricade at a two block perimiter, allow AUTHORIZED foot traffic ONLY in that area.

The recruits can enlist, get trained (again with scheduled closing of the area) and be put into effect policing Baghdad. As it is they aren't even getting in the front door, how do you expect that they will be able to police thier own nation without any police?

If your response is going to be that they will just take car bombings somewhere else and that it is up to Iraqi's to police thier own city, please don't bother, I don't think I could take it again.

NOW as far as your number of 100,000 recruits so far. I have seen this number is WAY overinflated and was just an initial number of recruits enlisting. Apparently more than 40% of them are no onger in th eforce, either for failing a physical, having ties to terrorists, too young etc. So that would mean that the mumber is closer to 60,000.

Iraq doesn't have this grand force building up as Republuicans report, from what I have read and seen online and in tyhe news, it is FAR weaker, the recruits ar not dead set on ending terrorism and fighting for freedom as they are made out to be, most just want a paycheck from Iraq's most dangerous job.

It is also THESE men in particular that get killed 20, 40 more at a time with car bombs parked outside the recruiting centers.

They cannot build a force without protection.

:)

It's interesting that the U.S. is putting so much confidence in the Iraqi Police force. What is it they are suppose to do?

This was in an article about the retaking of the city of Tal Afar -
"A U.S. Army colonel handed out $200 bonuses -- the equivalent of about a month's salary -- to the 83 Tall Afar police officers who fought with the Americans; 517 others either deserted or joined the insurgents, U.S. military officers said. The Iraqis who switched sides included the police chief and his deputy, both of whom were detained by U.S. forces."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A31377-2004Sep18?language=printer

Is it acceptable to rely on only 14% of the police force to stay while the rest change sides?

"Two car bombs rocked central Baghdad on Monday morning, killing 21 people and wounding 85 others near the Green Zone, where many Iraqi ministry buildings and the U.S. and British embassies are situated.

The initial bomb targeted a recruiting center for the Iraqi national guard, an Iraqi police official said. The Health Ministry said 16 people died and 76 were wounded."

The Green zone, embassies and recruiting stations. WHY are there cars allowed to even go NEAR this area during such violent times? It isn't imperative, it isn't going to reduce the ability to receive supplies, it IS going to stop people CAR bombing these buildings anyway, perhaps mortar and other fire but not the same destructive power as a car bomb parked right outside.

Can you please be clearer in your comments? Are you asking a question at the end of the first part of the sentence? "I guess most former homes are caves now aren't they, << Question or comment? Please clarify.

"Whether insurgent's homes or not" Please answer me first then we can continue this discussion...mmmKK thx.

Disk With U.S. Schools Info Found in Iraq
Friday, October 08, 2004

WASHINGTON ? Federal law enforcement authorities notified school districts in six states last month that a computer disk found in Iraq (search) contained photos, floor plans and other information about their schools, two U.S. officials said Thursday.

The downloaded data found by the U.S. military in July ? all publicly available on the Internet ? included an Education Department (search) report guiding schools on how to prepare and respond to a crisis, said one official, speaking on condition of anonymity.

The officials said it was unclear who downloaded the information and stressed there is no evidence of any specific threats involving the schools.

The districts mentioned are in Georgia, Florida, Michigan, New Jersey, Oregon and California. The officials said last month FBI (search) agents in charge of those areas alerted local education and law enforcement officials about the finding.

The officials did not provide the names of the districts. But Salem, Ore., Superintendent Kay Baker confirmed her district was among them.

"Local law enforcement has no knowledge of a specific threat to any of our school buildings," she said. "We will work collaboratively with law enforcement on any further developments."

San Diego schools also were included, according to The San Diego Union-Tribune, and ABC News said there was a second California district. The Salem Statesman Journal reported the other districts were Fort Myers, Fla.; Jones County, Ga.; Birch Run, Mich.; and Franklinville and Rumson, both in New Jersey.

The disk contained an Education Department report called "Practical Information on Crisis Planning: A Guide for Schools and Communities," published in May 2003, as well as photos and floor plans.

In a separate but more widespread warning put out this week, the Education Department advised school leaders nationwide to watch for people spying on their buildings or buses to help detect any possibility of terrorism like the deadly school siege last month in Russia.

The warning follows an analysis by the FBI and the Homeland Security Department of the siege that killed nearly 340 people, many of them students, in the city of Beslan.

"The horror of this attack may have created significant anxiety in our own country among parents, students, faculty staff and other community members," Deputy Education Secretary Eugene Hickok said in a letter sent Wednesday to schools and education groups.

The Education Department's advice is based on lessons learned from the Russia siege. But there is no specific information indicating a terrorist threat to any schools or universities in the United States, Hickok said.

Federal law enforcement officials also have urged local police to stay in contact with school officials and have encouraged reporting of suspicious activities, the letter says.

In particular, schools were told to watch for activities that may be legitimate on their own ? but may suggest a threat if many of them occur.

Among those activities:

? Interest in obtaining site plans for schools, bus routes and attendance lists.

? Prolonged "static surveillance" by people disguised as panhandlers, shoe shiners, newspaper or flower vendors or street sweepers not previously seen in the area.

? Observations of security drills.

? People staring at or quickly looking away from employees or vehicles as they enter or leave parking areas.

? Foot surveillance of campuses involving individuals working together.

The effort is the latest by the Education Department and other federal agencies to encourage school officials to maintain and practice a plan for responding to emergencies.

"It's a positive sign that they're finally discussing this after years of downplaying or denying even the possibility of a terrorist strike on schools," said Kenneth Trump, a Cleveland-based school safety consultant who has worked with officials in more than 40 states. "Public officials are in fear of creating fear, but we have to put the cards on the table, educate people in the school community and make sure they are well prepared."

After the terrorist takeover of the Russian school, President Bush asked his top advisers to review their strategies for dealing with hostage situations, Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge has said.

The federal government is advising schools to take many steps to improve the security of their buildings. Those include installing locks for all doors and windows, having a single entry point into buildings and ensuring they can reach school bus drivers in an emergency.

The Education Department sent its letter by e-mail Wednesday to school police, state school officers, school boards, groups representing principals and many other organizations.

The Homeland Security Department also sent a bulletin to federal, state and local emergency officials to provide fresh guidance based on the review of the school siege in Russia

Imagine that, if we never went into Iraq, this would have never been found. If its your kid that was saved BECAUSE we found this, what do you have to say about the Iraq war after this you stupid thoughtless lefty loonies?

While you insist on flaming others you don't realize the complete hypocrisy in what you are saying.

Like Maxwell said, the people here with some common sense who don't ignore reality due to core values are not people you will ever understand nor be able to get to adhere to your warped thought process.

The way you guys derive on your conclusions is second grade at best, you have such tiny simplistic ways of seeing things that it will be impossible to ever get the full picture.

Sorry man, you simply can't keep up.

So go ahead and post you blah blah blah comments, you do that well when you don't have the ability to formulate a reply. There's too many of you cretins skulking about this forum for me to constantly reiterate points for you, you'll neer get it anyway.

No matter what I have said, you still haven't provided ANY proof to support your allegations that I hate America and Americans, not a single word. You just keep rambling on and on with no answers, just questions for others.

What you do is reach an assumption based on my feelings toward your looney president. Thankfully, not all Americans are as aimple minded as some of you guys are and the world has a hope as long as these people are allowed to have a voice.

Yeah I know blah blah blah, maybe THAT's why you don't understand anything you don't want to believe.

I know that this post is old but I came upon it and felt compelled to post a reply. I know that the things that I say will receive much criticism and judging by what I have read I will probably receive very angry remarks from some; however, here I go.

First, it bothers me to see that this nation is so torn over all that has happened since 9/11/2001. But I am not surprised. After all, if the U.S. is not great for any other reason, it is great for the fact that each of us has the right to express our opinion even if it is different from those in power. I hope that we can at least agree with that.

Second, after watching the events over the past 3 years or so, I have come to the conclusion that the U.S., as a nation, cannot do anything right. Our every action is scrutinized by the entire world. And it doesn't matter how much or how little we do we are always in the wrong. Example, the tsunami relief effort. The U.S. immediately made an initial pledge of $15 million dollars to help aid victims and immediately we were criticised for being "stingy". Notice the emphasis on the word 'initial'. Was it not enough that the U.S. responded immediately? Apparently not. Personally I think that it was responsible of our nation's leaders to make an initial commitment and leave room to make adjustments once the true devastation caused by the tsunami was analyzed. And not to be a jerk but I am curious to know what kind of support the countries affected by the tsunami gave to the U.S. immediately following the events of 9/11/2001. Just curious??

Now, on to the focus of this post. For all of those opposed to the U.S. action in Iraq here is a bit of interesting reading.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/iraq/decade/sect2.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/documentaries/profile/saddam_hussein.shtml

I am not about to say that the U.S. has no interest in the oil reserves in Iraq. We all live in the real world here. We are a nation that runs off of oil. However, Suddam Hussein gave the U.S. every reason in the world to take action against Iraq. Especially after the events of 9/11. I believe that it was irresponsible for the U.N. to not take action against a nation that has so openly defied its laws. You may as well not have a U.N. if it is not willing to adeqautely enforce it own policies. Suddam Hussein and his regime have received exactly what they deserved if not less.

So, now that we are there, why not take every precaution to protect the lives of our troops and those who are trying to create a better world for the Iraqi people. And this brings me back to the original post by OZ_Media. Although it would not be easy, yes let's do something about the car bombing situation which currently seems to be one of the biggest threats in Iraq. It may be extreme, costly and almost impossible but let's get the cars off of the roads. There are so many interlinked positives to this. It would save lives. Is there any better reason??? If you argue this point you just don't want to accept reality. It would allow a system to be developed for creating a stable lifestyle for Iraqis. You can now get basic services back on track. Now you can put people back on the streets who are both trusted and accounted for through a controlled interviewing environment. This will ensure that the few on the roads are there to service the communities and not there to take innocent lives. Most importantly, you can now concentrate more on the task at hand: establishing a government that will allow the Iraqi people to govern themselves.

Most of those in Iraq who oppose the current military occupation do so because they are loosing power. A privilege which they grossly abused. I will not go into the countless atrocities that I have read about or seen reports about from Iraq's own people. I am glad that the U.S. is in Iraq. Could things have been handled better? Sure but hindsight is always 20/20. And even though innocent lives will be lost during combat, so many more have already been lost at the hands of Suddam Hussein.

And maybe just maybe, at the end of all of this, we will all be paying a little less at the gas pumps which I'm sure we have all complained about at some point.