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China recruiting U.S. IT grads

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by jkameleon 1 view

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China's rapid economic expansion has allowed Beijing to fund a recruitment drive targeting some of the best and brightest IT graduates from U.S. universities, according to Chinese sources.

In turn, this brain trust is being used by China both as a control on its own Internet revolution and as a potential resource for North Korea' cyberwar program.

. . .

http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/05/front2453728.0888888887.html

Couldn't they just outsource like the rest of the world?

38 replies

by dmambo

I believe that China has no real interest in being a long-term ally of the Axis of Good - US, UK, Canada, Aus. In 10 years, the relationship between China and the west will more antagonistic than it is now. Unfortunately, there will be those who will cash in and help China's growth.

by cheesel

for a US citizen to work in IT over in China. The Chinese hate us. They think war is inevitable with the US. Remember back in the 90's when the US objected to their war games near Taiwan? The Chinese told us to mind our own business as they had a missile pointed at Los Angeles.

Besides, Communism and Socialism have killed about 100 million people in the last century. Enough said.....

Renee

by jkameleon

> Besides, Communism and Socialism have killed about 100 million people in the last century. Enough said.....

Yea, maybe, if you count the ones that died of an old age as well. This statistics was concocted by a group of ex pinko commies, authors of "Black Book of Communism". The guys were so grieved over the collapse of the Soviet Union, that they went into the other extreme.

When one tries to blame Christianity for witchhunts, crusades, and such, he is promptly rejected by something like "This is not religion's fault. Religions don't kill people, people kill people". The same logic should be applied to Communism as well. Christ haven't preached inquisition, and Marx haven't preached gulags.

I agree with the rest of yours & dmambo's posts, though. I think Chinese are after US technological knowledge, and they are getting it through outsourceng & stuff. I think they are following the old Lenin's principle: "When we hang the capitalists they will sell us the rope". Or was it Stalin? Whatever.

by maxwell edison

I agree with your last paragraph, but not the first two. I also believe that 100 million (or more) people have been killed, either directly or indirectly, by communism-socialism. Slave labor camps, summary executions, starvation due to the flawed system, and so on have probably contributed to MORE than 100 million deaths.

I did a search looking for, what might appear to be, a reputable source to verify the numbers.

Look at this source, and instead of dismissing it in its entirety because of some "ex pinko commies" claim, tell us which part of it is false, why it's false, and what you believe to be the alternative truth.

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/DBG.TAB1.2.GIF

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE1.HTM

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/

Taking these things into consideration, I think you might change your mind.

by jkameleon

> I also believe that 100 million (or more) people have been killed, either directly or indirectly,

VERY indirectly.

100 millions is 10% of a billion. In the 1st half of 20th century, world population was about 2 billions, if my memory serves me right. So, 100 millions is about 5% of the then world population. Number is simply too big. It's big enough to affect world population growth, but I don't think it does.

Numbers you quoted might be correct, but criteria about who is supposed to be a victim, is very questionable, and politically motivated. Opponents of Bush & American model of capitalism for example, denote hurricane Katrina victims as victims of Bush & capitalism. Neoconservatives, on the other hand, claim that victims of 2003 heat wave in France

http://www.usatoday.com/weather/news/2003-09-25-france-heat_x.htm

are actually victioms of French socialism & social state. Victims of communism & socialism were counted in the similar manner.

> ... by communism-socialism.

All of that witches, heretics, indians, and victims of crusade wars were killed by Christianity then?

by maxwell edison

.
First thing:

You said that the world population 100 years ago was 2 billion, and I won't question that estimate. (It was actually 1.6 billion, however, compared to 6.2 billion today.)

But to accurately make the percentage comparison that you did, you would have to know the total number of people born into the world over that entire 100 year period, not just the current population at any given point in time. So how many people were born into the world over the last 100 years? In 1900, the world population was 1.6 billion. In 1950, the world population was 2.5 billion, a difference of plus 900 million. However, between 1900 and 1950, it's estimated that 3.3 billion people were born. And I estimate that in the 100 years between 1900 and 2000, that about 10 billion people (give or take a few dozen) were born into the world. So 10 billion new births, plus the population at the beginning of our time-line (1900), which was 1.6 billion, equals 11.6 billion total people to have lived. So you must compare the 100 million "claimed" deaths to that 11.6 billion number, not the 1.6 billion.

So instead of your 5 percent (.05) comparison, it would be closer to eight-tenths of one percent (.0086) comparison, a relatively small number.

Please feel free to double-check my math, as well as my logic.

It's estimated, by the way, that 106,456,367,669 (that's 106.5 billion) have been born into the world over the course of human history.

My source:

http://www.peopleandplanet.net/doc.php?section=2&id=1820&PHPSESSID=a5e20f496803b2269021282c06c40e21

Second thing:

You said, "...but criteria about who is supposed to be a victim, is very questionable, and politically motivated."

What is questionable about it? Don't just say it's questionable, but explain why you think so and provide some semblence of support.

And how is it politically motivated? Again, don't just say it is, but explain why you think so and/or provide some sort of reasoning and/or support.

by oz_media

First of all it's that the jobs are going overseas, and now it's that overseas employers are hiring US grads?

What if YOU were a grad seeking work overseas? Sounds like a pretty damn good opportunity to me.

You guys whine when you get it your way, you whine when others get it their way, you just WHINE WHINE WHINE about what everyone else is doing and don't do anything to better yruselves instead!

God, it's tiring listening to it all the time! "They can't send our jobs to China!", "They can't hire our grads to work in China!", "They can't breach OUR sanctions!", "We can breach our agreements because they breached theirs!"

As long as the finger is pointing at someone else, you never have to face the scary reality of pointing it at yourself and looking inward. the old head in the sand routine, 'it's not us, it's THEM!' Sad but true.

by oz_media

Just sick and tired of people running in circles screaming about how the sky is falling everytime they hear about another country having anything to do with the USA.

If you want such isolation, you are supposedly the most powerful nation on Earth, make it so...and best of luck with that then.

by dr dij

is that talented people could find opportunities around the world, with salary differential, taking into account local costs, enticing enuf that they might consider moving there. Consider how exotic would be. Maybe Chile, Spain, Brazil, Singapore, Australia, China, Japan would be good places to move to for younger folks. The world would share cultures, all parts would develop, people would get interesting lives...

Woops, realities of cultural bias against hiring foreigners by many countries, immigration snafu's, culture shock, oppressive local laws, diseases, greedy corporations bringing in lower priced labor, and many other factors get in the way.

It's still a nice dream - one world, mobile workforce. As long as it is one world not under heel of an oppressive govt.

by oz_media

To see that many of those issues reside on your own soil too though?

Cultural bias, culture shock, greedy corporations bringing in lower priced labour...

I know it is rampant elswhere too, Canada's not MUCH better but for the most part it is more multiculturally accepting than I've seen in the US, England moreso than Canada perhaps...maybe due to prolonged exposure.

But th epoint is, it's not just America that faces these frustrations each day, we've learned to accept that our countries are screwed up a bit too, but hey we just live with it and move on instead of constantly complaining how China buys our lumber and sends their workforce here to take our jobs or export our products, there's room for everyone I think.

If we wanted to bitch abour such things, the US is the worst offender yet. You guys owe us BILLIONS you have collected in lumber tarriffs, don't see it coming our way anytime soon either. Your companies come here and destroy local economies and jobs for thousands all in the name of profit for the US. But when the same happens to YOU and YOUR jobs are effected, YOUR companies are nudged (never shut down)American's form a lynch mob and go off the rails about personal liberties. Then again, I guess one could simply say, "YOU suck too"

by oz_media

While you claim it isn't relevant then correct the claim;
He didn't say the world population 100 years ago was 2 billion.

He said the first half on the 20th century. Which would be from 1900 through 1950.

In:
1900 the population is estimated at 1.55 billion
1910 it is 1.75 billion
1920 it is 1.86 billion
1930 it was 2.07 billion
1940 it is 2.3 billion
and by 1950 it was 2.4 billion.

[i]These are the the LOW estimates not the highs.[/i]

So in the first half of the 20th century (1900 through 1950) the average population was nearly 2 billion.

In other words, just as the original post implied, "In the 1st half of 20th century, world population was about 2 billions, if my memory serves me right. " and that's actually pretty damn close.

So when you say [i]"You said that the world population 100 years ago was 2 billion, and I won't question that estimate. (It was actually 1.6 billion, however, compared to 6.2 billion today.)" [/i]

You DID question it, in fact you attempted to correct it, and what you corrected was not actually implied to begin with. 1900 does not represent the first half of the 20th century.

Sorry, Max, just having a day where people are starting to get under my skin for all the little things they do.

Day is almost done though so I'll be better tomorrow.

But I wasn't questioning you anyway, just correcting you. ;)

by maxwell edison

.
Same song, different verse.

By the way, speaking ONLY for myself, what did I say that got your panties in a bunch?

by oz_media

I don't think anyone "said" anything in particular. It was just my realization that all these threads on TR are aboutpersonal liberties, personal rights violations, big brother is watching, the world is against us.

It was just overwhelming, "NOT AGAIN", then I realized it echoed all of my earlier comments regarding only looking outward and not accepting personal responsibility instead of worrying about what others are doing. Everyone is a "victim" of somthing, it seems,and it's always someone else's fault. Sorry, I'm just getting tired of the political soap opera.

I much prefer the Frdiay Yuk to tell you the truth, have to thank Guru for that one.

by jkaras

I agree with your point. We whine and complain, we have many soap opera issues here, but it is a disussion forum right? Everyone has gripes. I find it better to gripe on a keyboard than to a person making them uncomfortable as I foam at the mouth yelling. (like it doesnt happen to you or is you?)

I dont think communism is the bad guy. Many of our laws incorporated those ideas to a semi good policy. It just gets abused and needs proper policing and common sense. People die everyday for any reasons barring man's influence,(old age, cancer, sexual disease, car accidents, suicide, etc..) it's nature. There can never be an accurate count. I dont know of any hospital that lists; cause of death; communism, that what killed him!

The truth is there is no perfect answer from one mouth. True answers come from a collective perspective that gets all points covered. Isnt everything nowadays team this or team that? It's a team effort, be apart of a team? Hasnt every advancement to a society come from ther influences? Just a thought mind you.

by maxwell edison

.
....the general tone of most of my messages is that America is dripping with opportunity, and that people who live here, whether they admit and/or realize it or not, are in full and total control of their own destiny. It's the "doom and gloom" types that I continually disagree with.

But your comments, I will admit, are not totally without merit. I can only speak for myself, of course, but who do I think is against us (U.S.)? Islamics for one, specifically radical Islamics. The European Union, the United Nations, the Chinese (not necessarily the Chinese people, but certainly the Chinese government), and I'll throw in the Russians for good measure. And let's not forget about Mexico's love-hate relationship with the USA. They love the opportunity and standard of living available in the USA, and they love the American dollars they send south of our border, but they hate us (some of us) for preferring they do it legally and above-board. Even their president, Mr. Fox, is blasting us for not treating his illegal immigrants with kid gloves. (The 10 percent of his own population, by the way, that fled to the USA to escape his own corrupt and poverty-ridden system.)

But I suppose you're right, Oz. A lot of us DO think that the world hates us. Why would we think that? Just because we're targeted for death for the sole reason we're Americans? Just because we're criticized at every turn in the halls of the United Nations, an organization, by the way, that's housed within our very own borders and would crumble without our support? Just because we're literally lambasted every day in the newspapers across the world? Just because we're mischaracterized and lied about? Just because of the things you, yourself, have said about us? Silly me. I must have been misunderstanding all these things I read and hear.

Personally, I'd almost prefer to be an isolationist nation for a while. I'd like to say, go ahead. Let the rest of the world do it their way, and we'll do it our way. Go ahead, you can have your socialist systems and continue to pacify thugs and terrorists. Europe did a swell job of that over the past 100 years; go ahead, do it again, for all I care. I'd love to tell the thugs of the middle east to keep their oil and shove it up their tail-pipes.

I'll agree with you on another count as well. All too many things in the USA are politicized, and I hate it, probably more than you do. I can't stand the pessimism pimps continually trying to drag the optimists down. I hate the blame-America-first crowd for anything and everything that's wrong in the world, especially when it becomes part of our own political system. I hate seeing the liars calling other people liars. I hate it when people state a falsehood, and attempt to advance their own agenda based on that falsehood. I can't stand it when ignorant people skew, and even, misrepresent reality. I hate the collectivists who want to tear down a system that was built on the premise of taking full and total self-responsibility. I hate the gloomers trying to convince me and others like me that we're all doomed.

I don't like those things either, Oz. But I can't remain silent and let those things that I hate take over my life and take over my country; I must do and say whatever it takes to keep them at bay. I will not surrender to those things I despise; and I will never give up; I will "never, never, never give up." And not only will I not give-in to them, but I'll actually try to help them.

The United States is an incredible place with an incredible system. No, it may not be the best system, but, as someone once said, it's better than any other alternative that's ever been tried. If someone looks me in the eyes and tries to convince me that he's doomed to a life of failure, I'll look him right back in his eyes and try to convince him that he's not. I'll give those in need a hand-out, and I'll give those who need to help themselves a hand-up; but I'll never confuse the two, as it then becomes counter-productive for everyone.

And the United States is a place that I love. Maybe they're are better places to live, like your very own British Columbia, for instance, but this is where I choose to be and to live my life. I've seen the wheat fields and the corn fields that stretch beyond a person's line of sight. And if you haven't stood in the middle of a sunflower field in full bloom, then you haven't seen Kansas. I've seen the purple mountains majesty from the top of Pikes Peak; I've seen the myriad of colors that fill a New England autumn; and I've walked among the cactus and the red rocks of the desert. This is literally a great place to be; to me it's the greatest; and I truly do feel blessed and fortunate to be right where I am, just as you probably do.

But Oz, I have to wonder? If you dislike the tone of these types of discussions so much, why are you one of the major contributors? The discussions I hate are the religious ones, and you won't see me post even one message in them, much less even read them. If you hate it so much, why do you do it? My guess is that it's another one of those love-hate things.

(Man, this message went full circle, didn't it?)

by maxwell edison

.
I don't care. My entire point, however, was to correct his 5 percent estimated comparison to something that was more accurate, which is ABOUT eight-tenths of one percent. If you want to comment on that, please feel free.

A usual ploy to detract from a person's real point is to nit-pick on the insignificant things, something you're quite accustomed to doing.

by jkameleon

> Please feel free to double-check my math, as well as my logic.

You say, that 100 millions of extra deaths should not affect the population of about 2 billion? Well, whatever. I'd say neither you or me are experts in demographics, so we could just agree to disagree here. No matter how you turn it, 100 millions is pretty unbelievably high number.

> And how is it politically motivated? Again, don't just say it is, but explain why you think so and/or provide some sort of reasoning and/or support.

I already did, but you somehow ignored the examples I gave you. You know, that 2003 French heat wave, and Katrina.

There's another issue you are persistently avoiding: Should religion/ideology be blamed for the crimes & wars commited in it's name or not?

Nazism can clearly be blamed, because it called for extermination of Jews pretty explicitely. Christianity & Communism are not that straight. IMHO, blaming ideas for the damage they might indirectly cause, is actually a call-up for witch hunt. That's far more dangerous than ideas themselves. Militant anti-communism is therefore far worse than communism.

by maxwell edison

.
Variable A = 100 million "claimed" killed by communism-socialism.

Variable B = The world population at any given moment.

Variable C = The total number of people born within a given period of time.

You are comparing variable A to variable B. While I, on the other hand, am comparing variable A to variable C.

If you can't concede that very simple and obvious point, then you are unworthy of further discussion with me. Moreover, you are illustrating your ignorance to anyone who may be reading this discussion; and I'm not going to waste my time conversing with an ignoramus.

by oz_media

You nit picked, and buried it in a segue, I simply poked. A pick, a poke it's all good.

I never addressed your other comments because I didn't disagree, really. It was just a little fun nit-picking, just as yours was before mine, relax.

by Member 25348569

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn6321

This is happening all over Asia, capitalist India, communist China and Muslim Pakistan. I've also read that a similar water shortage is happening in good ol' free US with the Ogallala Aquifer for exactly the same reasons. Seems that human stupidity is pretty much independent of the political system.

p.s. Max. Not Global Warming, this! I wouldn't dare mention that...

by maxwell edison

.
.....That's a summer sport.

You chaps are in the midst of a record-breaking cold wave! How do you like all that cold and snow? Personally, I love it. A few years ago I got 60 inches (152 centimeters) at my house in a 48 hour period. I was one of the few who could get out and about, with my gas guzzling, 4x4 monster truck ("monster" = sarcasm), you know.

Oh, but wait! I forgot. Global warming is causing plunging temperatures and the next ice-age. How silly of me. Give me one of those warm beers, will ya'? It's coooold outside.

by Member 25348569

No, not us. It's been a bit chilly here at night (-3C) and we've had 2cm of snow and now it's raining and the temperature is up to 4C. There's a lot more snow up where Gadget and TonyH live but even there it will be raining by tomorrow.

No sign of Gobal [b]Anything[/b] for the last couple of years since the hot summer of 2003.

Still, I've a 'fridge full of cold beer so I can live with the winter...

Neil

by tonythetiger

"It's estimated, by the way, that 106,456,367,669 (that's 106.5 billion) have been born into the world over the course of human history."

So that means 93% of the people who have ever lived on earth are now dead.

It must be a Republican plot :)

by Member 25348569

Down in the South East, around London, it only takes an inch or two of snow for it to make the front page of the newspapers. It also only takes an inch or two to so screw up the traffic so that everything grinds to a halt. Winter - at least with snow - has lasted just three days and you have seen the headlines.

I've read your local link and I'll keep our weather, thank you - even though it's [b]still[/b] raining. I'm taking my Goddaughter (10) to see the new Harry Potter so we'll all get wet.

Neil

by jkameleon

> You are comparing variable A to variable B. While I, on the other hand, am comparing variable A to variable C.

Yes, I uderstood that perfectly fine the 1st time you posted it. Variable C is far bigger, and therefore politically much more suitable for comparsion.

> Moreover, you are illustrating your ignorance to anyone who may be reading this discussion; and I'm not going to waste my time conversing with an ignoramus.

Good. And I'm not going to waste my time conversing with a guy, who is obviously paid for ignoring certain issues. Like whether ideology can be blamed for the collateral damage it causes or not.

by maxwell edison

.
Are your television reporters as stupid as ours? We'll turn on the local evening news, and some reporter-babe will be reporting "from the scene" of a blizzard at some intersection. The wind will be blowing, the snow will be flying, cars will be sliding around, and here she is, telling us that it's snowing outside -- like we don't have a friggin' window!

And we also saw it with our unending, global-warming-caused, string of hurricanes. Here was some dumb-a$$ reporter-babe, outside with the waves pounding the shores behind her, signs flying through the air all around her, telling us that some people were stupid enough to ignore the warnings, and they opted instead to stay and ride-out the storm. Hello!

A prerequisite of becoming an American television reporter is to take stupidity 101 in school.

by oz_media

I gotta agree with you and yes it's often like seeing a bad car accident, you can't help but stare.

[i]"Why would we think that? Just because we're targeted for death for the sole reason we're Americans? Just because we're criticized at every turn in the halls of the United Nations, an organization, by the way, that's housed within our very own borders and would crumble without our support? Just because we're literally lambasted every day in the newspapers across the world? Just because we're mischaracterized and lied about? Just because of the things you, yourself, have said about us? Silly me. I must have been misunderstanding all these things I read and hear"[/i]

That's a little self pity in there if you ask me. Canada AND England are lambasted almost daily on these forums too, it's just that the people who live there agree that their government/system is as f***ed up as any other. We accept it for what it is though, in my eyes much better than the US and a million times better than most countries. Even in your post above you have explained [i]"Go ahead, you can have your socialist systems and continue to pacify thugs and terrorists. Europe did a swell job of that over the past 100 years; go ahead, do it again, for all I care. I'd love to tell the thugs of the middle east to keep their oil and shove it up their tail-pipes." [/i]This is a clear indicator of your dissention towards these other nations, which you are entitled to as you live with a completely diferent set of beliefs and values than others do. You are taught to accept what you have as being the best and you are happy with that.

As for the oil in the middle east, you don't get enough of it to make much of a difference anyway, but losing Canada's oil exports to the US would really cripple the USA as the majority of your imported oil and natural gas comes from Canada.

But this isn't a pissing contest anyway, the intent of my post was to MOAN about the MOANING that goes on everytime someone hires an American somewhere else, manufactures a product for export to America, DOESN'T manufacture a product for America, Manufactures a product in a third world country etc. It's always the "WOE IS ME, why poor old America?"

Get over it, as I have predicted for MANY years, the free for all 'everyone's a millionaire' will subside over time, just like every other nation and you will become segregated into the rich and the poor, the have's and the have nots and people will actually have to bust their butt to earn a living.

Yes, there is a great deal of opportunity but it's not knocking as it used to, it needs to be sought out. Too many people just moan when they see oportunities disappear from their grasp, as if they were due something, instead of just creating new ones. It's easier to blame someone else for outsourcing, off shore production, stealing jobs etc., than it is to actually do something about it yourself and not let these issues effect you.

Yes this is a discussion forum, but the rest of the world has already been through these 'hardships' and realities. It seems too many Americans feel that they are simply being ripped off, because the environment becomes competitive on a global scale now that America is spread around the world instead of a separatist nation of the free.

Having a hard go of it? Tough sh*t, only the strong survive in this world, get used to it or curl up in the corner and STFU. Oh, and please lay quietly and flat so I don't trip over you.

by faradhi

100 million, 2 billion... No wait, thats 100 billion... which is 5 %... no wait that .89%... no wait it is really 2 billion..

Your a commie.... I am capitalist.... No I'm a commie... your a capitalist

Its all religions fault.... Not its not...

Awww screw it... I going to work for the chinese. :p

by maxwell edison

.
....I've had it with stupid conclusions, and stupid assertions, and stupid reasoning, and stupid logic, and stupid misrepresentations, and stupid .....

That's why I attempted to correct that guy's stupid and flawed logic. AND HE STILL HASN'T ADMITTED TO HIS FLAWED LOGIC!

And what did we get? A blizzard of other messages.

by faradhi

I was having a little trouble getting my head around the conversation. I was also trying to inject a little humor not belittle your frustrations.

I have found that sometimes, even if I believe in something passionately, I have to give the other guy the right to be wrong. It was either that or give the doctor the check for ulcer repair.

by jkameleon

> That's why I attempted to correct that guy's stupid and flawed logic. AND HE STILL HASN'T ADMITTED TO HIS FLAWED LOGIC!

Religion, personal beliefs, logic, mathematics (especially statistics) is always subordinated to politics and interests. A wise person adapts his/hers momentary creed and logic to the state of the bank account & social status.

If you are employed, you can rest assured, that someone is spending sleepless nights pondering about how to cut your salary, or get rid of that expense alltogether. That person's beliefs, logic, mathematics, and statistics are substantially different than yours, as well as entirely incompatible with yours.

> And what did we get? A blizzard of other messages.

That should mean something, don't you think? :D

by retirednavydude

I guess I should hold off on that anex Canada thread :). I always loved working with your guys in the Navy. I do know one thing its not just Americans who rag on this stuff, I have been around a lot of people from other countries and they have the same complaints, so you are doing the same thing you bitched about earlier lumping us into one basket.

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