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Connecting 2 locations; need much help!

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We are in the process of moving our offices to a new location and keeping manufacturing here in our current location. I am the "IT manager" (in theory), altough self taught and happy with our simple, small network. With this move comes lots of complicated new needs/ ideas that are over my head. I need professional help (in more ways than one), but want to get a feel of what direction we need to go in first.

To explain the situation a little, we have a Win2000 Server with 11 PC's (all on someform of Windows, from 98 - 2000 Pro). We are soon going to a new accouting program as well, and it is recommended to run it on Citrix or Terminal Server to accomodate the two locations.

Additionally, my boss would like to check in to wireless networking for the new building, as he thinks it may be more cost effective than running the needed cabling.

What would be the best and most cost effective way to connect our two locations and still be able to share files, etc? The buildings are approx. 15 miles away from each other currently. My thought was to buy the property next door and put up a building for manufacturing, but that was a little too costly. ;) How far over my head do you think I may be getting?

16 replies

by stacyben

I forgot to mention, the new location will have a T1 line, and the manufacturing has DSL currently, if that is at all pertinent.

Thanks,
Stacy

by tomsal

Just a few ideas to throw your way..

Since your network is very small, since you have DSL already at the one location and a T1 at the other - why not go with a VPN (Virtual Private Network) solution to connect both sites? I'll admit I'm no expertin VPN networks, but I do know a bit and I know there is a huge volume of informaton about VPNs on the 'net and in bookstores alike.

A big thing to consider is obviously the amount of data that to locations will be sending back and forth to one another. Before you can even guess what solution to go with to connect both sites, its a good idea to determine your bandwidth needs first. (btw, what speed is your DSL - because DSL comes in many flavors and depending on your service provider it canvary greatly in the actual bandwidth you have. ;) )

As for the wireless, from a sheer equipment standpoint wireless solutions are actually more expensive than a cabled network solutions (the cost of wireless hubs, pc cards, etc. are higher than their traditional wired counterparts).

Usually the only time wireless is done as a cost savings alternative is because of unusual layouts or physical conditions of the building's construction itself. For instance if a cabling contractor would have to do considerable work to lay a cable through a wall due to its thickness or perhaps an area is just too tight to make it very difficult to lay cable in.

Keep in mind that wireless technology (the 802.11b spec) is spec'd only to 11mbps, where as with cable you could run a 100 or even 1000 mbps network. Also with wireless signal strength is very important. The max distance, the max speed and even the amount of errors in the transmission is EXTREMELY influenced by the distances between the wireless access points and the pc cards.

by tomsal

Just a few ideas to throw your way..

Since your network is very small, since you have DSL already at the one location and a T1 at the other - why not go with a VPN (Virtual Private Network) solution to connect both sites? I'll admit I'm no expertin VPN networks, but I do know a bit and I know there is a huge volume of informaton about VPNs on the 'net and in bookstores alike.

A big thing to consider is obviously the amount of data that to locations will be sending back and forth to one another. Before you can even guess what solution to go with to connect both sites, its a good idea to determine your bandwidth needs first. (btw, what speed is your DSL - because DSL comes in many flavors and depending on your service provider it canvary greatly in the actual bandwidth you have. ;) )

As for the wireless, from a sheer equipment standpoint wireless solutions are actually more expensive than a cabled network solutions (the cost of wireless hubs, pc cards, etc. are higher than their traditional wired counterparts).

Usually the only time wireless is done as a cost savings alternative is because of unusual layouts or physical conditions of the building's construction itself. For instance if a cabling contractor would have to do considerable work to lay a cable through a wall due to its thickness or perhaps an area is just too tight to make it very difficult to lay cable in.

Keep in mind that wireless technology (the 802.11b spec) is spec'd only to 11mbps, where as with cable you could run a 100 or even 1000 mbps network. Also with wireless signal strength is very important. The max distance, the max speed and even the amount of errors in the transmission is EXTREMELY influenced by the distances between the wireless access points and the pc cards.

by tomsal

Just a few ideas to throw your way..

Since your network is very small, since you have DSL already at the one location and a T1 at the other - why not go with a VPN (Virtual Private Network) solution to connect both sites? I'll admit I'm no expertin VPN networks, but I do know a bit and I know there is a huge volume of informaton about VPNs on the 'net and in bookstores alike.

A big thing to consider is obviously the amount of data that to locations will be sending back and forth to one another. Before you can even guess what solution to go with to connect both sites, its a good idea to determine your bandwidth needs first. (btw, what speed is your DSL - because DSL comes in many flavors and depending on your service provider it canvary greatly in the actual bandwidth you have. ;) )

As for the wireless, from a sheer equipment standpoint wireless solutions are actually more expensive than a cabled network solutions (the cost of wireless hubs, pc cards, etc. are higher than their traditional wired counterparts).

Usually the only time wireless is done as a cost savings alternative is because of unusual layouts or physical conditions of the building's construction itself. For instance if a cabling contractor would have to do considerable work to lay a cable through a wall due to its thickness or perhaps an area is just too tight to make it very difficult to lay cable in.

Keep in mind that wireless technology (the 802.11b spec) is spec'd only to 11mbps, where as with cable you could run a 100 or even 1000 mbps network. Also with wireless signal strength is very important. The max distance, the max speed and even the amount of errors in the transmission is EXTREMELY influenced by the distances between the wireless access points and the pc cards.

by tomsal

Just a few ideas to throw your way..

Since your network is very small, since you have DSL already at the one location and a T1 at the other - why not go with a VPN (Virtual Private Network) solution to connect both sites? I'll admit I'm no expertin VPN networks, but I do know a bit and I know there is a huge volume of informaton about VPNs on the 'net and in bookstores alike.

A big thing to consider is obviously the amount of data that to locations will be sending back and forth to one another. Before you can even guess what solution to go with to connect both sites, its a good idea to determine your bandwidth needs first. (btw, what speed is your DSL - because DSL comes in many flavors and depending on your service provider it canvary greatly in the actual bandwidth you have. ;) )

As for the wireless, from a sheer equipment standpoint wireless solutions are actually more expensive than a cabled network solutions (the cost of wireless hubs, pc cards, etc. are higher than their traditional wired counterparts).

Usually the only time wireless is done as a cost savings alternative is because of unusual layouts or physical conditions of the building's construction itself. For instance if a cabling contractor would have to do considerable work to lay a cable through a wall due to its thickness or perhaps an area is just too tight to make it very difficult to lay cable in.

Keep in mind that wireless technology (the 802.11b spec) is spec'd only to 11mbps, where as with cable you could run a 100 or even 1000 mbps network. Also with wireless signal strength is very important. The max distance, the max speed and even the amount of errors in the transmission is EXTREMELY influenced by the distances between the wireless access points and the pc cards.

by tomsal

Just a few ideas to throw your way..

Since your network is very small, since you have DSL already at the one location and a T1 at the other - why not go with a VPN (Virtual Private Network) solution to connect both sites? I'll admit I'm no expertin VPN networks, but I do know a bit and I know there is a huge volume of informaton about VPNs on the 'net and in bookstores alike.

A big thing to consider is obviously the amount of data that to locations will be sending back and forth to one another. Before you can even guess what solution to go with to connect both sites, its a good idea to determine your bandwidth needs first. (btw, what speed is your DSL - because DSL comes in many flavors and depending on your service provider it canvary greatly in the actual bandwidth you have. ;) )

As for the wireless, from a sheer equipment standpoint wireless solutions are actually more expensive than a cabled network solutions (the cost of wireless hubs, pc cards, etc. are higher than their traditional wired counterparts).

Usually the only time wireless is done as a cost savings alternative is because of unusual layouts or physical conditions of the building's construction itself. For instance if a cabling contractor would have to do considerable work to lay a cable through a wall due to its thickness or perhaps an area is just too tight to make it very difficult to lay cable in.

Keep in mind that wireless technology (the 802.11b spec) is spec'd only to 11mbps, where as with cable you could run a 100 or even 1000 mbps network. Also with wireless signal strength is very important. The max distance, the max speed and even the amount of errors in the transmission is EXTREMELY influenced by the distances between the wireless access points and the pc cards.

by tomsal

Been using TechRepublic for about 2 years now and its still the only forum I use that has this horrid habit of posting multiples when you click submit!

You'd think a site of IT pro's would make sure their own site works right ;)

by ghstinshll

given what you've said about your lines...
Replace the DSL at the manufacturing facility with a Point to Point Frame Relay or a T1, I'm assuming you can use a slow Frame Relay connectio at about 128k, assuming you won't have much traffic going across it.

To answer your question about wired vs. wireless, I'm not totally sure, but it may be cheaper to use wireless. Note that wireless technologies require additional security in order to be secured. Wireless is a good idea, as long as the traffic is encrypted. I'd talk with a communications company about this. Cabling is cheap, labor is affordable, and the speed difference is greater with wire.

You will need to think about redundancy in this case as well... What happens if the Frame Relay lien goes down? You can lease an ISDN and only pay by the hour so that you have a "failover" in the network. If it's not business critical to have a failover, then don't use it. You only know ifyou need it or not. You may also want to place another domain controller at the manufacturing site so that if the line drops you still have a server to log on to. You may want to use an un-utilized dsktop or something that won't cost you any money to run (buy). It sounds to me that the database software you're goign to be using requires additional services that you don't have? If so, you may be purchasing new equipment any way. If so, leave the current server in it's location as the redundant server and purchase a new one for the Terminal Server.

If you're over your head you will want to look into having a company come in and do all this for you unless you want the headaches and a tremendous learning curve.

by madroxxx

First to address the wireless idea. I don't really feel that the motivation for setting up wireless should really be price. Think about this, you will need new wireless NIC's for all workstations and wireless access points throughout the building. Considering you should be able to get cabling done for about $100 a drop you really aren't saving that much. Now factor in all the extra work that is gonna casue you, the security concerns, and the performance drop(11 mbps as opposed to 100mbps) and this doesn't make much sense to me.

Next a question, do people at the manufacturing facility need access to the accounting program? If not forget the citrix piece, if yes then you are on the right track.

Alot of this is going to depend on how much your company is willing to spend but I'll detail some things to consider.

Options for connecting the locations are
1.through a frame relay between sites...
Then you can cancel the DSL and have them connect to the internet through your T1. In this case you will only need a firewall at the main office.

2. Through a VPN over the internet. In this case you will need a firewall and a VPN concentrator at both locations. I reccomend either Cisco or Checkpoint for this solution.

Anotherthing to consider is failover. Is it mission critical that the accounting package be accessable? What if the cytrix server crashes, the connection drops etc. Are you doomed? If so then look at failover methods.

This all gets pretty complex quickly and I could go on and on but I have to get back to my own VPN hell now :)

by tomsal

$100 per drop is very expensive, for common office space (meaning everything is relatively "neat and tidy" - lowered ceilings, straight lines, no drilling needed, etc.).

Before I did our drops myself I got a quote for $4760 for 70 drops, that's about $68 per drop (all labor of course). Personally I thought THAT price was outrageous, thus the reason I did it myself.

To get back on track. And to make sure I wasn't going insane, I actually checked prices at 3Com and Linksys - I'm not tryingto be rude - but how can anyone say that a wireless network is cheaper than a conventional cabled network --- EXCEPT, as I explained earlier, the environment calls for unusually hard cable installs.

The average wireless PC can of decent quality is about $100, the average decent quality PCI 10/100 card -- $30 (and if you wanted real cheap you can get NICs for $15!). Right there...11 pcs x $100 = $1100, vs 11 pcs x $30 = $330. Not to mention the wireless hardware (hubs, if you need a wireless bridge on your network, network access points,etc.) ALL of it is more expensive (varies of course on the degree of quality you seek) than their conventional cabled counterparts cost.

All that and you pay more for roughly 1/10th the bandwidth and less security.

The simple fact is wireless isn't mature enough yet. As time wears on, wireless will have the bandwidth, the security, the range and the lower costs....but save for very few unique cases...I'm still a big supporter of cabled networks over wireless.

If anyone knows of a place that sells wireless components of quality, that are new, for cheaper than the conventional parts cost -- please educate me. I'd love to know!

Take care.

by bdtprez

When you consider the labor for running drops along with the (cheap 10/100BT)hardware, compared with the more expensive 802.11x hardware and signifigantly less labor, it often averages close and sometimes cheaper to install wireless. I have bid manyof these jobs, so this is from experience. However, I do not recommend 802.11b as a primary network infrastructure, only to enhance a network and allow mobile workers portability. An 11MB wireless link is only 11MB when your seated relativley close to the Access Point. Also, 802.11b is susceptible to RF interference from nearby machinery and other equipment. 802.11a (54-72MB) may be much better, but still wont touch a true 100BT connection through a switch, and is not compatible with 802.11b. Abetter choice may be to wait for 802.11g (54MB)but also backward compatible with 802.11b.

Also for cheap wireless hardware, check the hardware forum at http://www.netstumbler.com
For good cheap wireless antennas, try www.fab-corp.com

by surinderx

Dear
Why Don't U use CArbonCopy (software) for connecting the locations via modems.

I hope it is best way !

Lv and Regards

Surinder Kapoor
Sr. EDP Incharge
Vishal Group Of Companies

by stacyben

Thanks to all for their replies. I am still trying to get in touch with someone at Macola's Tech Support for answers to my questions on Citrix alternatives, etc.

I've decided against wireless networking thanks to the comments here, and decided if we do need to set up Terminal Server to get someone else to do it, as I've got enough to do already ...that was decided in part on some comments here and in part by reading a book I didn't fully understand on TS.

However, I am interested in learning more about CarbonCopy, Gotomypc, pcanywhere, etc. Are these possible solutions to my multi-location problem? Can some applications from an accounting program be run through these types of setups? Any pros / cons that you are aware of that a simple little network person like me may not have taken into account?

Thanks!
Stacy

by surinderx

Hello Dear Brother

If u are interested in CARBONCOPY to connect the locations then mail me at : surinderx@rediffmail.com

I will send you the software and the necessary advantages + installation guidelines.

Lv and Regards

Surinder Kapoor
Sr. EDP Incharge

Vishal Group of Companies
Jalandhar (India)

by jdeez

Outsource it! VPNusa is a company that only does VPN's (Virtual Private Networks). Check out there site at www.vpnusa.com.

I guarantee they will help you out!

JDeez

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