Deontology/Consequences/Virtue

Doom/GTA/CSI/X-Files/ did not lead to Columbine, poor parenting did. These kids were picked on in school and they did not have the tools to overcome the abusive high school they were in. Their parents did nothing and the kids decided the best course of action was to kill other students.

We need to start placing blame where it is due: On the individuals and on the parents!!!

If you buy an immoral or violent game don?t expect some happy go lucky character to keep appearing on the screen with niceties. Remember the first rule as a consumer?use common sense?

OK, I couldn't read every post to this topic but I've heard the same old tired arguments before, so here goes:

VIDEO GAMES AND TV ARE NOT BABYSITTERS OR PARENTS!

If you don't want your child playing a game with violent themes or images, get a BACKBONE and take away the PS2, remove the TV etc.. The creators of video games are not here to raise your children, you are!! Start doing it.

Censorship of any type is one of the first steps on the road to tyranny. Ergo, people should be allowed to produce any types of games that they wish.
For those who my disagree: What or whom, in any given era, is to be the arbiter of what is "offensive" or "non-offensive"?
Indeed, what if the arbiters are a group of Christian or Muslim fanatics, or perhaps communists or nazis?
Think about that before you draw a conclusion; history is replete with those who wished to force their views on those in their charge.

All our movies are rated in Australia and yes they do get it wrong sometimes!

If there is no rating system then would there be pornography sold in the Department stores ( or is that the case in the U.S. ) similiar to alcohol?

I agree that the concept of individual free will is relevant only in the adult realm. Kids need guidance from their parents. I think that parents should make the choice as to what is right for their kids. They should be the people who know their kids the best.

With that in mind, I'm not opposed to society helping parents do that. I like the way my state (Idaho) does it. You can't buy games rated M unless you are over 18, and the stores do card (I look young and enjoy video games). Most likely, anyone with a child old enough to play M rated games is over 18 and can buy the game (or show up with ID) for his or her child if it is appropriate.

I personally am like that well adjusted honor student and my parents were aware of that. They were fine with me playing violent video games but there was a time limit for games. Maybe that's part of why I stayed well adjusted...

As for playing the game in front of mom, I think most boys could care less. It would probably just traumatize mom...

I've noticed that video game violence was never an issue until the games started looking realistic. No one ever complained about Rampage, where the object of the game was to destroy cities.

But now I'm rambling.

I hope the evil Canadians can get their act together before the start of next season. I miss watching my Avalanch play!

I could not have said it better myself!

When you play a violent game and pretend kill a lot of people, just hit return and every one is alive again. Real life is way more violent.

Violent Games 'specifically' do not incite violence, but could be an influence among many, and given the right conditions. Insults for example may provoke the temper of one individual but not necessarily the next guy. I'm not aware of any gospel evidence to prove that it directly causes it...But ultimately its how the individual reacts to that kind of stimulus. Some people are just obsessive.

Parents should be careful though...kids absorb very well and are usually curious enough to imagine or experiment. Who knows how they process the violence they see on video games.

>> "I before E...", like so many rules, does not apply to god.

Hey, I never noticed that before...

Where do you work? It is normal in my IT unit to say 'I did it, sorry' when something like that happens. One can only be fired for willfull sabotage.

How is it possible for you to agree with Jessie on the individuality of kids, and with government regulation, which of course will treat all kids of the same age exactly the same as one another?

Did you know that Oprah is God?

That's right, the Eternal Supreme Dieter has revealed her identity to all!

Yes I agree that there is violence on childrens TV, though some of you would have watched 'Transformers' as a kid I am sure, which is much like Power Rangers, and I didn't end up killing people or hurting people.

Maybe there should be an education program on how to bring up kids well, and what to teach our kids, though this may not even work with some people.

I think you would be surprised if you would only read the book.

I honestly disagree with your idea that spanking is a good idea. The Golden Rule cannot be taught by spanking, children rarely spank their parents. The Confucian expression of the Rule perhaps can (he is credited with 'Don't do unto others what you don't want them to do to you'). Physical discipline doesn't have to include pain. I also disagree that punishment is synonymous with discipline.
Another mode of child-rearing is the use of love, justice and the inculcation of the concepts of mercy and interdependency to effect reasonable behaviour from children. It works, but may not be available for a person with your character (as evinced through your previous posts in this thread). I have five children and know what the results of both these modalities are. I come down on the side of Love (as was taught me by my wife) as opposed to Fear (which is what I had learned as a child).

The US Constitution (to form a more perfect union) is actually all about curtailing your individual liberty, in an way acceptable to the representatives of the several states.

Yeah, it was another bad joke. Just like the one I WAS going to use telling you that R&IAN's handle can't be rasputin because there's no "asput" character on the keyboard. I thought his comment about rampersandian was funny because that's how I thought Ayn Rand might want it pronounced. I see now that this forum is way too high-brow for me. Well, I'm off to the Spongebob chat forum.

But thank you for pointing out my use of a religious doctrine in a (sometimes) logical debate. Totally inappropriate. "The Rule" in any culture is the best, or most widely accepted, description in whatever culture of the concept of reciprocity, a condition that might never be attained between parents and their offspring, but is the ideal of a civilized society. It is for parents to teach their children that principle with their authority, not to be their children's peers, unless and until the children are able to behave without supervision.

Love and justice are not incompatible with an occasional spanking for serious misbehavior.

Mercy means to equate good with evil by treating both identically. Mercy is evil.

Interdependency is communist nonsense. I don't depend on you and you don't depend on me. If you do, you'll find yourself in need. Fair exchange among equals is not interdependence because there are always other trading partners available to replace somebody who wants to make us "dependent".

...of so many kids today is dominated by electronic entertainment devices.

You made the choice for your children, and that is your right and you should be able to raise them as you see fit. You made the right choice, because it is your choice for your children. For parents who have no problem with violent games (like my brother and his 13 year old well-adjusted honor student son who plays "Grand Theft Auto"), let them raise their children as they see fit, also. My brother made the right choice, because it is his choice for his son. I do not want to see government appointed censors make the decisions for parents. The parents should be able to make their own decisions for their children.

i think it would totally wrong to do so, after all i have not seen or heard of anyone from smith & wesson, sig-sauer or anyone else go to jail for their products use. besides maybe parents today should just be parents instead of trying to blame everyone for their failures. not to get too off0topic but interesting parralell, does the rise in teens getting pregnant stem from t.v. or videogames? or maybe from the parents of them not taking the time to talk to the children? i have played plenty of violent video games, including GTA 3, mortal kombat, you name it but i never had a desire to go kill my entire school, oh yeah i listen to heavy metal as well, all of that is a BS excuse for parents not doing their job.

Wm

If I understand what I have read about the ESRB, I dont think it is illegal to sell the game to a minor. The whole ESRB participation is voluntary. I dont know if I am reading it right though.
http://www.esrb.org/esrbratings_faqs.asp#9
If you look at the second paragraph of that question it says: Although the ESRB does not have the authority to enforce the ratings at the retail level, we do work closely with retailers and game centers to encourage them to display ratings information and not sell or rent certain product to minors. In fact, many retailers have signed up for ESRB's Commitment to Parents program in which they pledge to use their best efforts not to rent or sell M-rated games to children under 17 without parental consent.

That TV is the fault, or improper use of TV instead of proper parental supervision is at fault.

On the other hand, I know a 17 year old boy who is into all the gory games and movies, but tears up when he sees roadkill.

that you offer no factual support for that claim. None exists.

The village no longer exists, or at least is in sharp decline. I hear a phrase often that really ticks me off, it's "I don't care what other people think". because it's indicative of a symptom of the problem. We're more mobile, don't stick around long enough to get to know the neighbors, are suspicious of our neighbors, etc. Used to be your neighbor had your back and you had his. You watched out for each other and each other's kids. If my dad's neighbor seen me doing something I shouldn't have been doing, he told Dad and I got whupped (Yes I know, corporal punishment is a dirty word nowadays, but I know a lot of successful and respected people who were also spanked as children and frankly, I'm thankful to be in their company).

Parents should monitor the content of the games, videos, music, books, TV, etc. used by their children. It is up to the parents to teach children what is right and what is wrong. Granted, different parents will draw the line in different places but that is what pluralistic (or diverse) societies are all about. With my own children I monitor the media they are using and don't hesitate to draw a line separating what is acceptable and what is unacceptable. I also do not hesitate to indicate that I don't approve of behaviors depicted in some of the music, games, video, etc. that I allow in the home.

My biggest problem, as a parent, with government guidelines is that they can change with administrations. Marajuana is a good example. It was bad and the laws against it enforced in the Nixon administration. In the Carter administration the U.S. Surgeon General was saying it was cool. The Regan administration said it was wrong. And then we had Bill who said it was ok if you don't inhale.

Gun safety was part of our 9th grade health class. Everybody handled and fired a rifle, a hand gun, and a shotgun. Of course, that wouldn't fly in any school where the first day of deer season wasn't a holiday :^)

Masturbation leads to naps, not rape.

which having nothing to do with religion.

Your last post has thrown me some. Are you saying moral judgements are good or they are bad?
Christians are NOT the cause of the evils and woes of the world. Everyone has their own share of the blame.

You are not allowed to stand on a busy street corner and expose yourself. Why? That is morally unacceptable.

You are not allowed to have sex with 12 year old girls. Why? That is morally unacceptable.

You are not allowed to walk into a store and just take things. Why? That is morally unacceptable.

Believe it or not, even non-Christians can be good moral people.

And yes, when you lock up a thief or sexual preditor you ARE making a moral judgement.

keeps the control in the parents hands. Not letting minors rent R rated movies is also keeping the control in the hands of the parents. Then the parent is the one that can choose if they think the glorification of drug dealers, car thiefs and murders is acceptable wholesome family fun.

I believe jd's initial sarcastic "we aren't supose to make any kinds of moral judgements anymore are we?" comment was more aimed at the Dr. Spock society, wherein feelings, behaviors and actions are neither good nor bad, "they just are." We as a society have immersed ourselves in so much psycho-babble about not making our children feel guilt or fear in raising them, that we're raising children who feel neither guilt at doing something wrong, or fear of consequences.

If I'm not there, I don't want my kids to be able to buy something that says it's for "mature audiences." In this instance, I want the video store owners, the police, the neighbor lady, whomever, to prevent MY child from partaking of something that may have Mature situations. However, if I AM there, I can decide to go ahead and let my mature child partake.

Basically, I want "the village" to say, "You'd better ask your Mom and Dad if it's okay for you to have that."

I agree that parents should monitor this but a problem comes up when your kid goes to someone else's house where the parents don't monitor the activities so your kid winds up being exposed to things you don't even know about.

I guess the only thing you can do is try to make sure they understand the difference between reality and fantasy, you can't be with them every minute of every day.

As I cannot elaborate meaningfully on your statements, the value judgements contained therein, or the moral/ethical foundation you laid them on, I'll simply applaud quietly and go back to taking care of my own life instead of asking someone else to do that for me.

cheat and give the readers digest version.

Yes, that is EXACTLY what I was TRYING to say.

There is nothing wrong with someone feeling badly when they do something bad.

There has to be positive feedback for doing good and negative feedback for doing bad. This will lead to wanting the positive feedback and doing more good.

The other problems is with so many working families you sometimes end up with invisible kids. Kids that only get some kind of response when they do something bad. Sure it is negative feedback, but they actually got noticed!

Hug your kid everyday. I do.

Like jd says, "There is nothing wrong with someone feeling badly when they do something bad." In fact, there IS something wrong when people do something bad and are NOT punished. But if you obey the New Testament word for word you must love even your enemies and forgive everybody. Christianity, practiced honestly and consistently, would lead to chaos.

It is the ACLU, and the EXTREME liberal progressive movement that is pushing this make no judgements crap. They are the ones that want the "anything goes" mentality.

I am not sure what your Christian hate is about or how you got that way but you will find your hating a lot of people with no provications. That makes as much sence as any other hate, directed towards race, gender or religion.

How about Muslums? There is a lot in their faith that could make any non-muslum very nervious. Do you hate them too?

Should everyone just run around believing in nothing and no one?

Chill out. Lots of good people come from all walks of life.

The violence of the video games may be caused by the general acceptance of violence in society, not vice versa. I think that the general idea of a voluntary rating label (shades of the comics code) combined with active parenting is the available answer to this 'problem'.

is hearing a case this year about parental notification in abortion cases. I agree with you, but I'm afraid the courts are going to erode parents' rights even further.

Some parents like to meet their children's friends and their friends' parents before letting them go to their friends' homes to visit. You can ask your children's friends' parents about the games they play along with anything else that may be of concern before letting them go over to play.

As you say, the best thing is to teach your children the difference between reality and fantasy. Then again, many children probably already know the difference. They know that when the roadrunner runs off the cliff and floats in the air, while the coyote floats until he looks down, and then falls, and then is all better the next scene in the cartoon, that is just fantasy.

Popeye always had a stash of "spinach" with him, and took a hit of it when he needed to feel strong.

A lot of people think that "importance of community" means making sure the neighborhood hoodlums don't break into their garage.

As soon as you say "I also didn't want to enter into or attract personal attacks" you follow it up by calling him a "social aphid". Great work, marvelously consistent.

but in my experience, parents who don't punish their children, often don't do anything else for their children either.

Oh, and be careful using the J word in front of children. Too often, they confuse the related words Justice and Justify (fied, fiable), sometimes with disasterous results.

So you are saying you had bad parents because you were bad when you pulled the other kids hair.

An action that you learned by observing. Much like kids with violent video games?

Hmmmm.

I am a Christian and one would think I would be on the "morality" soapbox with other "christians." The truth is that my son has been playing so called violent games since he was pretty young; he doesn't have a violent bone in his body. Gee, maybe it isn't the game that's the problem; maybe it is a parential problem. What I am absolutely certain of is that we were ALL born with the blame virus (gosh God, if you hadn't given me this woman...Hey, it was the snake...etc.) Sooo, why don't we all take personal inventories and first ask God to correct that stuff in us before we try to legislate morality; which is an exercise in futility anyway.

Sincerely,

Matt Galbraith

You can't tell me (or anyone else for that matter) that Scooby and Shaggy weren't eternally stoned. Paranoia and the munchies constantly.

Your morals are not mine...never will be. Don't even think about coming into my living room and telling me what I can and can't do to entertain myself in private. If I want to amuse myself with a video game that features a death match between two made up dieties who tortured each other first and then had sex, followed by a rollicking slaughterfest, that's my perogative. Don't like it, don't buy it...but keep your nose, and your morals, out of my business.

Damn I miss my hockey.

Although there was alot of good hockey seen this year (college, World Cup, junior hockey)

And it's just one more layer of failure to take responsibility. I wonder what would happen if we started holding parents responsible for children's misdeeds.

Justified? No, but does it happen? Absolutely.

Actually, both women claimed a child as theirs, and Solomon's proposal uncovered the truth, as one woman (the real mother) was going to give up the child, rather than let it be cut in half.

I try to tease them until they think. I have a lot of work to do :)

My disagreement is not specifically with Christianity, but with the doctrine of faith that is common to all religions.

Stop believing blindly.

THINK.

I command you!

ROTFLMAO

Stating that "the argument can be made..." is not equivalent to making that argument, and is not similar to proving that argument valid.

I'm glad you noticed my use of euphemism. If you re-read my post, you may enjoy the irony. In context, it is a suggestion that I also have no right to govern anybody else's consensual sex, by using a euphemism myself. I had said that somebody who can't talk openly about sex shouldn't offer to guide other people's sex lives.

Funny? A matter of opinion.

Clever? Absolutely!

:)

I know you don't believe that playing video games will make the same impression that physical discipline will, so I will not explain how your reasoning is flawed, as if it were an honest mistake on your part.

When those parents have been legally determined unfit, we'll talk. Otherwise, they're the ones who have the say.

Somewhere in your village is the creator of the game you want to withhold from your children. Worse, somewhere in your village is the real thug that inspired the fictional Mature situation. As a chain is no stronger than its weakest link, the village is no better than its dimmest idiot. Rules based on individuals can work, rules based on perfectly homogeneous villages cannot.

"When those parents have been legally determined unfit, we'll talk."

I look forward to the day when failure is legally considered just cause for removal of power, parental or otherwise. The world will be a far more just and efficient place.

Well done, you copy and pasted from http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0777958.html or
http://www.knowgangs.com/school_resources/timeline/schooltimeline_001.htm
or any of the other websites that show the same data in the same format, could have just given us the link.

Oh, by the way, you can hardly call them worldwide school shootings, when all but 3 of them occurred within the USA, while Dunblane and the Mohammad Ahman al-Naziri shootings were shootings in which a school was targeted, rather than shootings within a school carried out by school kids...
so, it would appear that out of the 37 valid cases listed, 36 of them occurred within the USA, leaving me to think that its got nothing to do with video game violence (as violent video games are everywhere, in every country) but with Americans insistence that every house should have a gun but no one should train there kids to leave the damn things alone.

I for one grew up with a father, who owned a rifle, was instructed at an early age that rifles are bloody dangerous, and it?s a bold thing to play with them, as it would be to play with a power tool. I was also taught in a round-about way that killing someone with a rifle etc was bold, as would killing a person with a power tool be bold. I learned respect for life and respect for weapons, and I've never shot anyone ;-)
I started playing video games at the age of 6, and playing "violent" first person games as soon as wolfenstien came out...as did many. I love fps (first person shooter) games, the bloodier the better, but though a child of TV and computers, I was always able to differentiate between reality and fantasy.

So grow a pair and accept it, it?s far more likely that youth are growing up disillusioned and separated by reality due to less care being put into their parenting, less time spent within the family unit (both parents working, relying on the TV to educate and amuse etc) than just because of violent video games. Ask yourself the question: why is little Johnny spending 90% of his free time locked in a dark room escaping reality in the first place, or even better, where the hell is little Johnny???

oh, yea, LOCK YOURE GUNS UP, YA STUPID HICKS! ! !

Its 10pm, do you know where YOURE children are?

Two sentences, 5 spelling mistakes and a claim that your imaginary friend is better than some programmers? imaginary friend (condemning the use of ?made up deities? all in the one breath. Impressive. But I?m still a little confused?who are you claiming never had sex, the characters or the programmers????

That parental attitudes won't ever change. Things did to get to this state in the first place.
Kids will find a way around age checking. Fake id's will have yet another use.

If it isn't your view why do you present it?

It's true that "the publishers, developers, designers etc. of video games should not be held accountable for the actions of consumers of their product." So we are in agreement on the topic of this silly thread.

But why did you present a position contrary to your own?

If "The mediocre, the lazy, and the perpetual victims are in full control of this country" it is because people who claim to have "high personal ethics" keep moping about their daily chores instead of doing something about it. The day I believe "You're not going to be able to do anything about it" is the day I suck the business end of a shotgun and squeeze.

Hi R&ian,
Thankyou for pointing out that it was not an essay, I can see my droll sense of humor will certainly be lost in this forum. (indeed if this is the case, the world is doomed as we know it!)

However, back to topic - the seriousness of Slapshot's question, made me think of writing a possible answer (one of many from reading this forum) to perhaps help him with a different perspective. The entire idea was to promote thinking and not actually require me to be 'graded' on my grammatical syntax. I am sure that many of you would agree that us IT people are not always correct when it comes to grammer.

Anyway:
1: Speaking figuratively.
2: Of course. The entire point of this is to discuss moral/legal & social issues. Whether in 'run on sentences' or not... and if you don't like someone bringing up these things - then perhaps you need to question your own being here.
3: Okay, won't argue on that. However bear in mind that while some may see shadows, others will see a monster. Not all you see/hear is heard correctly. This means that while some people may be intelligent enough to see indoctrination, others may be susceptable to it without ever noticing it. It's like subliminal advertising? (Do you believe it exists?) I believe that if you sat down and spoke with a advertising person, they could explain the meaning of all this part of my post. :-)
4: Perhaps I should start a post about that? :-) or you can if you like. Perhaps it even is the point of my argument - or the answer to the question from Slapshot (heavily filtered) yet still a question in it's own right. Ahh conundrums!
5: No, the statement made was in regards to a 'perfect world' which was without anything in it other than total happines and bliss... You say I should organize my thoughts - you should read my post better. :-) Looks like that you skipped a bit... TSK - FAIL!!

I can see you are a person that simply see's posts as something to take apart, demolish arguments and otherwise turn everything someone says around on them... tell me are/were you in the skeptic's association? (I believe they do the same kind of thing.) Or is it simply that you like to create unrest? Hmm, maybe you just can't stand to lose? Hmmm.... interesting case.

Cheers

What standards are you going to use to define failure? Children are different, and what you might think is in the best interest of one may not be possible or practical for another.

*We* IT people also need to learn to spell.

A droll sense of humor would not be lost on the forum, it was absent from your disorganized, train of consciousness presentation.

"see's [sic] posts as something to take apart" - unnecessary in this case, yours was never assembled. I have, however, seen your "it's not a perfect world, we can't have perfect laws" argument enough to recognize through your elementary school level grammar errors.

Your premise, that the purpose of law is to enshrine the status quo, is flawed. The purpose of law is to enforce justice. I defer to john_galt regarding the philosophical cause of this phenomenon in our society, but practically it has occurred precisely through the repetition of the argument that we humans are not good enough for perfect laws. In fact, we are too good for anything else, but if you are too careless to spell grammar without an "e", I will not expect you to analyze ethical issues any more rigorously.

"Children are different, and what you might think is in the best interest of one may not be possible or practical for another."

So let the children decide, not the State. Pregnant 12-year-olds have bad parents. Keep trying to evade that, I like watching irrational people squirm.

You would like to decide that for the rest of us? Suppose I decide it for you instead? Still a good idea?

"So therefore the education system should also have parenting education programs (compulsory) so people can learn how to bring up their kids in a loving environment."

Think about compulsory love and consider whether you would be willing, or able, to practice it.

Tyrant.

Have you looked at your very violent avatar?

"So let the children decide, not the State."

The child's bad judgement (usually) is what got her into the pregnancy in the first place! And it's not the State's place, it's the parents' (unless, as I've said, the parents have been determined legally unfit).

Children displaying bad judgement (or in cases of rape, misfortune) does not necessarily equate to bad parenting. Are your children robots, with perfect programming whom you can simply turn off whenever they are out of your sight.

Irrational? What's that mean? someone who doesn't agree with you?

Hmm, if came off as much stronger than simple teasing but if that is all it was intended then no harm, no foul.

But I hope you agree that the "anything goes" mentality of the progressive liberal is going to lead to more harm than "love thy neighbor", and "turn the other cheek" ever will.

Well, I am off to think......

First, kids will make mistakes. It isn't only "bad" kids or neglected kids that have sex and with the way they dress now it is no wonder they are having sex earlier and earlier. Between that and everyone keeps saying to hand out condoms because they are going to have sex anyways instead of telling them why they should wait to have sex.

So you are saying that after making a mistake all is lost? They should never consult with their parents to try to fix mistakes?

Anyone who thinks that a child of this age should be able to run out and have a medical procedure without the concent of their parents is part of the problem.

Better start handing out better condoms in the grade schools if the best arguement is "they are going to do it anyways".

Should YOUR kid have sex anytime they want, with as many partners as they want? (assuming you have kids, if not, pretend how you will teach them). If you are going to tell them not to run around like animals and have sex any and everywhere with anyone, the question is WHY?

Kids from rich and poor families alike make mistakes. From good "villages" and bad.

Shine some of your light this way.