Community archive
by special99
Certifications should be used to backup experience gained within a certain product set.
I secured a position recently on the basis of my current CNE & MCSE combined. I've worked with NetWare since 1991 and obtained my CNE in '93. My recent clientrequired someone with extensive experience with NetWare and NT servers.
by uknow
by uknow
My last statement for this month! (laughing)
When you use your certification to backup your experience you look creditable, it looks intelligent.
But I can see someone getting a PMI Project Managment cert or a DBA Cert or even a Programmer Cert to help their IT experiences.
Take me for example, no certs but I've been doing plenty of MCSE and MCDBA work. Research, test, implementation, research, trial, trial, error, error, success, success, I learned something (he's got it) repeat these steps for something new or unknown, ok you get the point.
I learned UNIX, Linux, Citrix, what ever has a x (windows) or whatever, but no cert, nothing specialized, just buffet style administration.
I would look good with a Project Managment Cert, or a Cisco Cert. This would pull everything togteher, top that with a BSIT degree, then get a Masters Degree in Technical Management.
Sounds good, but I hope I end up CIO or instead of being a bass boat manager. (laughing)
by jeff g
by cio
Jeff makes a good point. I am co-owner of a small IT engineering firm, I hold numerous Cisco, Nortel, Checkpoint, fuitsu and BICSI RCDD certs with an EE degree and a Top Secret clearance. Bottom line, I bill out pretty high to a customer based on those quals.
However, as someone else pointed out in this string, internal marketing of your skills and being aware what you are worth, which changes depending upon locality and the regional/national economy, is a key to your pay. We bill the customer a fair market value rate for techs,and our techs get a fair market value for their skills. But a lot of the times, especially in,larger organizations, techs get what they ask for, not what they are worth. Certs are worth money.
by tomsal
At a young age I learned the value of a dollar. Through the years I've watched childhood friends get the latest video game system on their birthday or as a Christmas present -- I had to work odd jobs before my parents allowed me to get the same system. In high school, I was among the first to get his driver's license by I was near dead last to get my own car. Why? Well, I can think of a dozen people right now who had their cars bought for them by their folks. My parents said - "You want it. Work for it, just like we did!". So I did...got my first car at 19.
The moral to story, is I value money highly - thus I've learned through the years that being an educated consumer pays handsom dividends in savings.
Now to relate all this to thediscussion at hand...there's no way in THE HELL anyone get me to pay top dollar for what I call "flash". What is flash? Flash is the irrelevant "skills" one will pitch to you to give him/her reason (I call it excuse) to charge you a high bill.
IfI have a project I'm outsourcing (which btw, I very *rarely* need consultants as I do all the work myself) I know EXACTLY what I need done - I do the homework. I won't pay a professional to work on say an NT network project just because he gets to show me some Linux/UNIX certs and tells me he worked for the FBI...That's nice...but if it doesn't bring value to MY project, I'm not going to pay a premium for it.
My point is - certs are good to show qualification for THE JOB AT HAND. But to uneducated consumers they can be used as con artist tools to get more money out of the client just because some hot shot has a trillion certs.
Rule 1. *NEVER NEVER NEVER* PAY for skills you don't need!!!!!!
Rule 2. ALWAYS know more about the project than the consultant. ;)
by r.rectenwald
by dirtylaundry
by uknow
by uknow
System Admin, Network Admins need certification as a consultant because of marketability.
Your resume gets attention, the company looks good with your certification titles. If you are a software engineer you need experience because certs are not the standard of competency.
by bstephens
Has a consultant, my first concern it's hallways be there, to do that I had to study constantly, I agree with Bill Gates when he come down to the labs, him self has responsible to know what kind of specialization want to your staff, and for me this is the critic point off all business.
When company people get the right skills to that specific function.
We don't expect see Bill in our classroom, even has a teacher; it's very expensive to the regular certifications schools. So it's a meter ofconsultants to give to the CEO all the pictures we can have about this questions, students profile, necessities and grow of the system, new generation grow,... , we quantify the risk, and I think we just have this acknowledgment if we are their withthis proposal (second), always learning because this is our first purpose.
In my self reality, sometimes regular work absorb all my motivation to continue with self development, at this point I start feeling the necessity of one certification, must of the time, not by misting skills but just because I knead to feel confidant getting this objective to help me still focus, comparing consultants with paratroops, when they don't made the regular month jumps, they lose our beret, even the top one.
by charliebruno
by charliebruno
by clocksource
Yes, with experience. Get some experience, get your ceritifcations, then I have found I get paid more than non-certified consultants... that have several more years experience than myself. I think that it shows you go the extra mile, and always willing to learn. We are all students of a subject, whether we are in class or not, no matter how many years experience one has, simply stated, if you think you know it all, wake up, open a book, I'll bet you learn something that you didnt know before. By the way, some companies require certain major certifications.
MCSE, CCNP.
by jwp
As an employer ... The certification might get you an interview, if other applicants don't have experience. At interview time you can find out if the candidate has a "paper" certificate or really knows what he is doing.
As an employee ... The certification has not done much for me.
by uknow
I tend to agree, my gigs have been experience only, no certs yet, my salary has been right up there with certified pros, I've seen some certified pros with less experience of basic administrations.
But at least your cert and employed, sometimesthat beats the down town of consulting.
by sensor guy
Certification is mostly defined by senior executives as an individual's public formal affinity with a particular vendor or technology.
It all depends on the level of consulting you are doing. If you are at the perform level, it helps, since this is proof you at least know the acronyms and can sometimes take a test.
On the other hand, if you are a senior management consultant directly advising or supporting the CIO/COO/CEO/CFO/CTO, this is definitely a hindrance. Good advisors to decision makers are expected to be at least have a semblance that they are totally vendor and technology unbiased, so flashing or bragging about a certification will definitely hinder you. PMI is the only exception to that rule that I'm aware of.
Manyyoung turks brag about their certifications and subsequently lose the most lucrative advice business. Don't tell unless asked if you are in an executive office!
by d. brock
And of course, the Young Turks were the final blow to the Ottoman Empire since they failed to win the support of the locals they so despirately needed. Guess the lesson to learn is that when you are a management conusltant, rather than a technical consultant, you need to play politics. Of course, in my experience the rule with many of these consultants is: "I'll tell you anything you pay me to." And the executives that are hiring these consultants are often using them to provide justification for a proposal to the Board.
In this way the management consultant is not so different than the Young Turks who needed the support from the locals. Another rule of the executive office is: "Find out who is paying you for what, who is supporting this, and who isn't." It will make your job much easier if you know the score and players.
by d. brock
I guess it depends what type of consulting you are doing and who is hiring. There are generally two types of consultants I have found in IT: the traditional consultant type, and the type that is refered to as a contract or temp employee in virtuallyevery other career field known to man. If you are of the second type then certification will not help you here as much as experience, just like any other employment opportunity.
However, if you are a consultant of the more traditional type, who offers help on specific projects and may not actually do any of the implementation, then certification will be helpful mostly as a marketing tool.
Just like with standard employment, it's not what you know it's what you can show. Certification can be a short hand for indicating a commitment to knowing your trade. I have also seen where many companies will want certs to go with experience because it is easier to verify certs than experience in many cases. Anyone can put down that they were the Network Engineer for Joe's Co. when Joe was their father's best friend, and the company closed down years ago.
by uknow
There is so much of a game of getting the soup of certs to land the jobs. But experience traditional certified pros who get the cert to show the validity of their trade in IT ie MCSE 2000.
Since the client has Windows 2000 you would look good with a MCSE 2000 around your belt and the IT shop that supports this OS.
I like your example of how companies verify your experience with a cert than with working for Joes Pizza company which happen to be your father's best friends cousiz.
by jscholz
I believe certification is requested from a client more for a 'CYA' reason than anything else.
If a consultant it hired, then fails to do the job, the hiring agent for the client can fall back on "He/She was certified" as an excuse. If that sameconsultant was not certified, the hiring agent would probably be blamed for not hiring someone with certification.
by lordinfidel
As most of you probably know I'm not a full time consultant.
But there are times where having certs can hurt a consultant and others where it can help him.
Here is my take:
If you are touting yourself as a "computer repair/teacher/expert" and you have too many certs. Especially alot of low end ones that you can get in a weekend. Then your integrity/skills may be questioned.
On the other hand, if you are a highlt skilled consultant such as a SQL DBA or Cisco Engineer. Then having your MCDBA or CCIE is critical to your sucess.
As someone who is asked to consult regulary and who has several certs. I usually refuse the "repair" jobs. That's not what I do. Even though I can easily, it's just not worth my time.
Maybe I amjust leery and jaded. But that's the way I look at things.
by shawn
Too many people get certs because they "think" they have to, without looking at whether it is good cert to have, ie CCIE, etc.
At first I got a CNE, which got my foot in the door, but not impressive pay. Then my work ethic came into play and I increased the pay 4-fold. But, I have to say that even though my cert had little to do with anything else past that first job, the one piece of that cert that has made my career was the class on problem-solving and research.
I don't think a lot ofguys out there realize how advanced you can get just from the research and information available to us on the internet. I wouldn't be nearly as productive and knowledgable if it weren't for this and the skills I learned in this area, making the internet work for you.
Concentrate on this, and certifications shouldn't matter, IMO. :)
by lordinfidel
Of the guy who has a million certs but who is a repair tech.
You have to ask yourself if they have that many certs then what are they doing consulting for small jobs? Why are they unable to land the high paying jobs or why are they not specialized?
I know MCDBA who all they do is consult. But all they consult on is sql db's. That's it. Same thing with CCIE's. They generally only work on advanced cisco routing.
Like I said. Maybe I'm just jaded because I work in the industry and have seen too many goof balls get certs who don't know the difference between a simm and a dimm.
by dave-price
by dushy_ant
by sbbell2
by uknow
by d. brock
I have a degree with high marks from a reputable university, and have experience in my field. I was never a big believer in certs, nor am i now. I work and have worked with plenty of people who have cert, and some were good, some were braindead, butmost were average. I found the good and average tended not to take their own certs too seriously.
Finally, I decided a couple months ago to go for a cert (MCP, now CCNA). I didn't bother blowing my budget on courses, I just grabed a book, studied and past the test without breaking a sweat. A funny thing happened, I started to get more recruitment calls, and for better money than before (not that it was anyway lacking before). Do certs make a difference? I think having all three: degree, certs, and especially experience certainly have made my career easier. Not to knock anyone who is missing one of two of these, after all, my job now was due more to my social skills (interviewing well and networking) than with my credintials, but they certainly did get me in the door.
by rapidriverca
by uknow
Clients need reasurance from some credentials, even though they may not even know what it means. Good point.
Get that MCSE, its a prize for us technians in the trenches. It is like a degree, and companies reward you for it.
by idesign4u
by lordinfidel
That is like saying getting a degree from law school means nothing.
I know lot's of lawyers who are idiots.
But to blanket all cert's as bad and everyone else who has them as stupid is just as ignorant as the people who go to boot camps to getpaper certs.
I'm defending this because I myself hold several certs and are very proud of them. I worked hard for them.
It only 'proves' that they can take a test, and NOT a measurement of what they can actually do!
Tell that to a CCIE or a RHCE (me the latter, just 1of4)who actually has to do hands on work to pass the exam.
Like everything else in life, you get out of them what you put in.
I personally have learned some cool things from studying for exams thatI normally would not have learned by doing the task day by day. Not to mention the fact that when you study for exams your more apt to purchase books regarding that product.
And I know that I'm not the only person out there who never stepped foot into a IT school before and passed their exams on the 1st try. Experience does count for something I agree.
But something also has to be said for the person who can learn the stuff on his own and be proficient enough to pass an exam.
So I invite you to put your money where your mouth is and take one, you might just learn something.
Or is it true that you can't teach old dogs new tricks?
by rapidriverca
by d. brock
Total agreenance with you L.I.
Yes, we have all seen the incompetent, paper MCSE etc. But, there is also stereotypes of the person who got there CS degree in the 70's, these degrees are often seen as basically worthless because of lack of math and other basic skills necessary today (didn't even teach structured programming back then). Sounds like this person may be one of these trying to defend his turf by claiming experience isn't just important but the only thing. However, a seasoned MCSE and CCIE is worth more to most employers than just a seasoned admin. You can't always quantify experience, it's a variable thing, but you can spot envy and distain in an email. Perhaps he is just not up to studying.
by byteguy1
While I agree that larger companies might require certifications so they can get an idea of just what the tech/consultant might know (and their clients would relate to that), in our area where we are relatively well-known, certifications don't mean anything.
People just want us to do the job. They don't really know what the certifications mean.
Art
by cgomez33
by b3ck79
I say that a cert does help any consultant. When you think of why the cert program was first started, you will start to understand why they help.
Cert's programs were started as an "industry standard" for a level of knowledge and commitment.(excuse typos please), . We all know that there are a LOT of people taking these class's. Consultants only use certs to further thier career. Not to brag about what they know. I don't know one person who knows everything about computers. I have grown up with an electronic engineer father and a programmimg mother since before I knew how to read.
As an employeer, a cert is an easy way to weed out applicants.
As far as repair tech's with a lot of cert's, maybe they do have the knowledge, but lack people skills.
This is my two cents.
by de vo
Wow, some of you are starting to depress me. :)
I hope I'm not totally out of line in replying to the string, but as a greenhorn in the industry (just over 2 years of experience) I've started to work on getting some certifications. So far, the situations I've been in wouldn't allow me to go to college, and I really feel that the only reason I've got my current job is because I knew the boss from a previous work experience and he liked my work. However, now that the job is ending, I want to relocate. So now what can I do???
Us newbies are in a tough spot these days. Either I'm looking in the wrong places, or nobody wants to hire someone with little or no experience. Those that WILL hire someone with no experience, require at least an AA, but usually a Bachelor's. What am I supposed to do now? I can't go to school. Even if I did, I won't have a degree for eons because I can't go full-time (which takes a long time anyway).
Enter "certifications". In the hopes that any prospective employer won't look at me and just laugh, I have been trying to get certified before my time runs out and I have to get a job pumping gas or back on the farms. Aren't the certifications designed to be a measure of competency and knowledge on a certain discipline or field? If they don't do squat, why am I even wasting my time? It is my sincere hope, that combined with my references and what little experience that I have, the certifications will make a prospective employer want to at least CONSIDER hiring me.
Again, I hope I'm not out of line. I just feel that the whole purpose behind getting certified was to show a certain level of competency, if not mastery, on a particular subject or field.
by de vo
So far, the only certs I have are A+ and Network+ and I live in the US. I hope that SOMEONE with the power (or jobs) will see me for what I'm capable of and the potential that I have. Certifications or not. Of course, the whole reason behind getting the certs in the first place was to show employers that I'm not completely stupid. Is the employment world so screwy that everyone and their dog (at least here in the US) has a different perspective on what to look for in a prospective employee? If I were an employer, I would want some way of accurately determining the knowledge level of the prospective new-hires. Maybe some sort of pre-employment testing. I would think that it would help to seperate the people that are qualified from the people that are just blowing smoke.
It just seems that the real worth-while employers want to hire people that are either totally green, or people that have a god-like knowledge and experience in the field. If I had that much experience / education, I'd have already had a great job and wouldn't want to quit.
I've met plenty of people that have college degrees. There a lot of them out there. I've also noticed the large numbers (not neccessarily the majority) of them that make me wonderhow they even survive on a day-to-day basis. Might have taken them 15 years just to learn how to tie their shoes. Yet employers will hire people for the mere fact that the person HAS a college degree. It doesn't even matter what the degree is. I've known someone that got a job as the head of the technical training department at a call center because he had a college degree. His degree was a BA in GEOLOGY! Another person hired (by the local community college) to be the head of the IT department. His degree is in DIVINITY!
Sorry if I sound like I'm ranting here. Maybe I am. It's just frustrating. Ya know?
by lordinfidel
My users refer to me as satan.
They bribe me with junk food to help them.
I am almighty root and I am not a nice person.
I just call it as I see it.
by admin
LOL!
Reminds me of when I lived in Austin Texas and used to go to the GM Steakhouse #14. There was a big sign behind the counter that said something like "We Serve Abuse" and they made fun of everything the customers did as they went through the cafeteria style line. Man, that place was quite popular and packed most all the time.
:)
by rmcdonald
by uknow
Yes, I've seen a increase of reference usage before they check your last employer, they want to know from others. Your experience can be verified using this tactic, not a new concept but a popular one when employers are seeking the real truth aboutyou.
Certs help them to title you as well as screen you, it can give you higher salaries also in my opinion you can pass jobs that don't give you your due salary requirement based on your experience and cert.
by gerardj5
by admin
you can always refrain from giving them out upfront, but sometimes the powers that be have already decided to go with you, but corporate needs them etc. and yes, for those naysayers, you actually CAN learn in school too!
:)
by d. brock
It's hard to determine by any certs or claimed experience or expertise who really knows what they are talking about. I've actaully seen a well known TV Tech show host claim to be an expert and operating systems then fail to demonstrate that he knowsanything about OS other than one has GUI and one has a command line. I doubt he could even name the two main classifications of kernel architecure. Not to mention he claimed that MP3 was MPEG 3! (It's level 3 of MPEG 1, MPEG 3 was basically incorporated into MPEG 2 which is why we are skiping right to MPEG 4 for the new standard.)
This is the same thing that happens with certs, just because someone has a TV show or a particular cert doesn't mean they really know what they claim to, or what you need them to know. Not that they don't know anything, but they may not be competent in areas they claim to be.
Guess you just pay your money and take your chances and pray the person you are paying good money for is really what they seem to be.
by uknow
You have outlined pretty much everything in a nutshell, not to mention the interpersonal skills of interviewing, networking skills, there is more to getting the job than cert, resume, paycheck.
From your posting, you have sharpened the saws. I enjoyed reading the efficiency of your experience.
by brianoc
I'm a consultant....Who Hires & fires.....No Certs.....Earns > $300,000 PA
I never believe CV's and will only take on other consultants who can 'put it across' at a face-2-face interview. I've seen people wh's CV's look terrfific but haven't the ability to scratch their own backside outside of a prescribed manner !!
Certs mean nothing. Real experience, everything.
by brianoc
I'm a consultant....Who Hires & fires.....No Certs.....Earns > $300,000 PA
I never believe CV's and will only take on other consultants who can 'put it across' at a face-2-face interview. I've seen people whose CV's look terrfific but haven't theability to scratch their own backside outside of a prescribed manner !!
Certs mean nothing. Real experience, everything.
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