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Does IT really need more H-1B visas???

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by sleepin'dawg

Closed to new repliesThis discussion is closed. It stays readable, but it takes no new replies.

I think this is interesting. Does any one wish to comment. There are definite pros and cons to this.

http://www.thechannelinsider.com/article2/0,1895,1958075,00.asp

[b][i]BTW, 1AW unless you have something intelligent to say, without a load of sugar, please keep your opinions to yourself and have the common decency to stay away from a topic of which I seriously doubt you have sufficient experience or expertise to comment on.[/i][/b]

[b]Dawg[/b] ]:)

22 replies

by tig2

Thanks for the link Dawg. It helps to have read the opinion that is beginning the discussion.

I have been watching the H-1B impacts on my profession for some time now. My question is why the debate?

The theory is that H-1B workers fill jobs that CANNOT be filled in the US. I take some exception to that. I just watched a company that chose to outsource their IT to an American company, choose to re-assign that contract. That's fine. If they think that sending the work to India is the best choice, so be it. But to imply that those jobs couldn't be filled by Americans or legal immigrants is wrong. Those jobs WERE filled by Americans until just recently. And those Americans are now on unemployment.

While I believe that any company may choose to off-shore, I also believe that there should be a required honest effort to home jobs in the US. If you want a Visa holder for a particular role, there should be a requirement to present that role here first. And my question is if rate alone can be a deciding factor. I know folks that would be willing to adjust their rate for the right projects. I am among them.

The issue has nothing to do with the arguement that there are insuffficient skilled IT workers in the US. It has EVERYTHING to do with wanting the skill set at a cheaper price.

Another side of the arguement is found in my friend Sriram. A very talented developer, he was required to return to India, thus disrupting his employment and his wife's education because his visa had run out and it will be a year before he will be able to re-apply. Sriram had been in the US long enough to understand US standards and practices, blended well with his corporate culture, and provided an excellent work product. But because the system of checks and balances manages to a specific time span, he was unable to avoid his return date.

The H-1B system has been broken for a long time. Before upping the ante, I should think that an in-depth analysis be done to define how it should work. Don't assume that developers are in short supply. They aren't. Don't assume that a time span (5 years) is sufficient. It is not.

Innovation can come from the US- if it is allowed to.

by sleepin'dawg

here's a question for you. There are parts of the country begging for IT help and none is to be had while in other parts there is a glut of IT help.

There seems to be a general unwillingness for people to relocate and there is also an almost total lack of information where the jobs are unfulfilled and going begging. Don't you think it would be to everyone's advantage if the government passed out better tax breaks for relocation, filling the jobs with natives, keeping people off unemployment and just generally improving the economy by having as many as possible employed. So far that hasn't been happening very effectively. N.B.: I said effectively not that there haven't been any efforts made.

In an age of information, some of it isn't being passed around very adequately. Sometime you'll have to get me to tell you of some ofthe problems I'm having finding adequate people. Going the H-1B route will be a last resort.

[b]Dawg[/b] ]:)

by tig2

Isn't it better to improve the communicaton around what areas are in need and solution from there? I agree that EFFECTIVE efforts have not been made.

While I know that there is a shortage in some places, a glut in others, I think that there are better answers than increasing the H-1B cap. Telecommunication and job balancing are two possible answers. I can't be the only person on the planet that is schooled to spend active time in front of a computer and work- on Monday as easily as Saturday- and provide a good work product. In fact, I dare say that I spend more billable hours in a telecommute environment becauses the distraction level is so much less. I get up at 5:00 a.m. and am in front of the computer by 5:30. I only need time to shower and get coffee and I am ready to work. I generally shut down around 5:00 or 6:00 in the evening- mostly because I have a couple of hours downtime about midday that enables me to do work around home and still be accessible. I can accomodate clients on both coasts this way.

I have a heck of a time finding clients that are willing to let me telecommute as opposed to sitting in an office.

And even from the stand of on-site presence, I have been able to manage projects across Canada as long as I had access to email and a cell phone. I could be on one site in Toronto and answer questions about another site in Winnepeg. And I lived in the US. I was able to manage to client need and expectations because I was willing to get on a plane or receive calls and email. I have a friend who does HIPPA project management. She lives in a VERY small town on a lake (some folks!) and commutes to CT Monday through Thursday. I have done similar. It isn't easy but not particularly difficult either. What makes it do-able is flexibility on the part of the employer- and desire from both the employer and employee. If I am viewed as a commodity instead of a resource or, even better, partner, the chances that I will be considered for an out of area role decline dramatically.

I do understand that finding well qualified people is difficult. And while I doubt that this is your problem, I know that here, part of the problem is the way that HR reviews available resumes. If I am talking to an HR rep, I KNOW that they are not likely to have a clue about what I do and what I am capable of bringing to the table. And I have had HR reps tell me that they can hire a fresh out of college for less than I bill. Probably true. But not likely that they will hire the same foundational knowledge, mutiplicity of skill sets, or work ethic.

As I had said, I think that the H-1B system is broken. I would love to see a shift in how the gov thinks that fixing it should happen. Or even IF they see a need to fix it. Cap increase isn't the answer. You are right- tax breaks for relocation, filling the jobs with natives etc is at least heading down the right path. Do I think it will happen? No. It is easier to do the same old thing than it is to find a better path.

Edited to fix typos.

by dr dij

if you're in brossard, QC, which is Canada, are there parts of canada that are lacking in IT personnel or are you talking about US? You mention H-1B but that is a US program..?

by dawgit

I think that when used right it is one of the best tools we have to achieve an understanding in and with the rest of the world. Work and learn in the US for X number of years then a return to the home country with capital and a realistic understanding of the US. Now you can't beat that with forign-aid. I disagree with his point about the lowering of wages with the program. Illegals do that. Skilled or learning semi-skilled legal (as in the H-1B program) don't. I think in the long run it helps America.

by maxwell edison

We need to have unlimited H-1B visas so big business can grow even fatter with even higher windfall profits. In fact, we should offer bonuses to people who apply for the visas so we get even more. Who cares if the American worker is laid off? Not me. Let them all go, if you ask me, then big business can really rake in the dough. Why pay people a decent salary when we can get others to work for peanuts? Then, with all those unemployed Americans, we can tax the hell out of those windfall corporate profits so all the unemployed American workers can live off the dole. That's the new American dream, you know. So bring em' on!

by dmambo

Or maybe because of his sarcasm. It all about the money. But I think there may be another prism. H-1B's might help to slow or avoid off-shoring. If these visa's aren't available, then there will be more of an incentive for employers to go to the workers rather than bring the workers to them. I'd rather see the jobs stay in North America than take the whole kit and kaboodle, including the peripheral economic impact of good-paying jobs, to Hyderabad.

Stiil, to me, the bottom line is to make higher education in the US affordable. This will provide us with the labor force that can fill these jobs.

by john.a.wills

I was once the token U.S. person in a team of H1-B workers. My salary, which I suppose was the same as theirs, was the highest I had had; indeed, it is only recently that I have reached that level again. I do not believe that the H1-B workers are undercutting the rest of us.

by bfilmfan

The same reason we allow open borders.

It lines some businesses pocket at the expense of an American.

Remember that economic terrorists wear 3 piece suits.

by sleepin'dawg

[i][/b]"In the high-tech world, a similar debate centers on so-called H-1B visas, which allow folks from places such as India, Russia and the Philippines to enter the United States legally to do [u]temporary[/u] jobs that ostensibly would go unfilled for lack of qualified workers."[/b][/i]

For me the operational word here is temporary and I have no problem with bringing in people for [b]temporary[/b] periods to fill temporary jobs. My problems is finding fully qualified people to fill permanent jobs, long term. In a market hungry for the qualified skilled, employers are forced to poach workers from each other. We know where to find some of these people but too many are waiting for the jobs to find tham than are willing to relocate to where the work is. It i an ongoing problem awaiting a solution.

You would be absolutely enthralled to here the reasons people prefer to stay on the dole rather than relocate c/w paid relocation subsidies or fully paid expenses.

In my opinion anyone, anywhere refusing any job, especially where the expenses are being picked up, should lose all unemployment benefits unless they can prove solid reasons for staying where they sit.

Another thing, the bar on what determines "fully" qualified seems to be in the process of getting lower and lower. You can't trust some of the stuff people now think of as determining them as qualified.

[b]Dawg[/b] ]:)

by tig2

As a contractor, I am, by definition, a temporary worker. I have worked contracts that were 3 months, I have worked contracts that were 18 and 24 months. I am the person that the H-1B worker dislocates. I bill higher than they do so if the client company is looking for the price break I have two choices if I want to work. Either bill at an unsupportable rate or pass in hopes that I will find a client who is willing to pay me what I am worth. Perhaps I think too highly of my own abilities but I am not willing to take an entry level rate when what I bring to the table is a generalist skill set with nearly 20 years in the business. You want a complex project delivered? Call me.

Because the very nature of project management is tactical, not strategic, it makes no sense for business to keep a bunch of us on staff. Program Managers- yes. Even PMO specialists. But not individual Project Managers. As we saw in 2001 - 2002, projects dry up.

I have worked large projects with H-1B visa holders. I have to generally add a minimum of 4 weeks to my planning cycle to accomodate their (generally) lack of knowledge of environment and (again generally) lack of business acumen. If I am dependant on delivery from many of these folks, I have to establish a risk from the beginning and find a polite way to communicate that risk to Sponsors and Stakeholders. My experience tells me that sending the code off shore will net me buggy code that I then either have to unit test myself or just play ping-pong with. Half the time, I get code that has not been unit tested, does not meet the stated requirements and/or doesn't conform to the business process that requires it. And the responses I get when I object to this run the gamut from "I didn't see that requirement" to "but I think it should run this way" and just about everything in between. I just recently had the expereince of having to throw the same piece of code over the wall DAILY for about 3 weeks before the "partner" finally understood that my QA people weren't there to do his unit testing and the code HAD to conform to a business process- regardless of what he thought was right.

And don't get me started on the challenges of being a woman leading some of these guys- the culture that many of them bring in almost PROHIBITS them from taking direction from a woman.

I could probably go on for quite awhile here but I won't. (or perhaps I already have- sorry :) )

I think that it is short-sighted in the extreme to put project dollars off shore. I document everything. My experience has been that they document nothing. From the perspective of business intellegence, that is unacceptable. I have to conform to US laws regarding personal, non-public information and the management of that data. They don't understand the concept of NPI so don't manage to that standard at all. I spend a prohibitive amount of time insuring that the projects I deliver are auditable- often having to go back to that temporary worker to get required information that should have been delivered in their doco.

I know a company that has recently taken the step of re-insourcing their IT. They were an early adopter of off-shoring/H-1B. The experience has caused them to re-think their strategic direction. They were not- in 7 years- able to manage to reasonable SLAs because the information necessary was either half a world away or the on-site H-1B holder refused to manage to appropriate levels of urgency.

And "fully qualified"??? It will always be challenging to find people that are truly qualified when the interviewer can't spell "computer" without Vanna White standing by. My ability to spell COBOL properly doesn't mean that I have written in that language recently. I have been interviewed by, and turned down for, roles where the interviewer couldn't ask me intellegent questions about my skill set. Very recently, I interviewed for a (permanent) role for a Privacy Specialist. I spent the interview bringing the HR generalist up to speed on what Privacy and Compliance is in a financial organisation and what someone in that role should be expected to know walking in the door. And then got to answer a series of touchy-feely questions about handing difficult co-workers.

ARRGGGHHHH!

I understand that it is aggrivating to not be able to find qualified people. But we ARE out here and we ARE willing to do whatever it takes to find and retain a decent job.

And incidentally, I agree with you- if someone is willing to pay re-location for me, I will move. I want nothing whatsoever to do with being on the dole. But that's just me. The only job that I have refused was in CA. That was because the recruiter didn't want to pay me my bill rate- adjusted to accomodate the cost of living in CA. Nor were they willing to pay relocation. I still think I made the right move in that situation.

I'll put my soapbox away now... :)

by stevemedley

Having worked in IT since 1975, corporate, union, military, industrial from weapons makers to recording companies I have seen one diabolical entity that finds it way through all of the companies as they become corporations and reach "magic" income summits. We used to call them efficiency experts until TV sitcoms made that title a joke. But that person or division that sifts through fine print and legal loopholes to create the ultimate lean, mean money machine can ruin the very spirit that got the company where it is today by targeting human resources as excess baggage. The other side of that coin has been the prima donnas that insist on a lot of contractual perks like 5 figure country clubs memberships, unions that need a reality check and even expecting companies to provide things that I would hesitate to expect from my parents when I was still under their roof. One of the best situations was when I made almost too much money in my own mind but was layed off or took a furlough for 3 or 4 months a year as a defense contractor, therby solving the "too much money" problem. I am also a journeyman electrician and that seems to be the first remedy for expensive services: shorten the work week. My last dagger I dedicate to the HR interviewer. I am somewhat consoled that I am not the only one that has encountered the modern Human Resources Specialist or Engineer that treats hiring more suitable for a cattle call. It wasn't that long ago that the person that you to work for hired you and then you went down to see the person that worries about your race, tax forms and death benefactor. I was going to go on about the Security Clearance issue, like maybe I waited for 2 years for a clearance transfer while the investigators were doing background checks in Calcutta but I am starting to feel like Andy Rooney. Aloha.

by onbliss

...that is the number of International Students enrolled in the US Educational systems. The students brought $13.3 billion to the US Economy. 72% of the students have reported that their primary source of funding is from their personal and/or family sources.

My point is out of the 500,000+ students, there are a few who are likely to search and get a job in USA. So when talking about H1B visas, the [b]role of the Universities[/b] ought to be considered too.

For more info: http://opendoors.iienetwork.org/?p=69736

by too old for it

The whole H-1B program needs to be shut down until every U.S. citizen who was employed during the dot-com era, as well as everyone who has entered the field since, is fully employed at dot-com levels of salary, benefits and perks.

Foosball tournament anyone?

by rcsteinbach

Need I say more? Businesses will not stop until everyone in IT earns $5.15 and hour without benefits. Why should they stop the program, they paid off Congress and their CEO needs a new South Pacific island to buy!

by pgm554

If Billy Gates and Larry Ellison want to lift the ceiling,here's a thought:

For every H1B visa let in,they set a scholarship fund corresponding to fully pay for the tuition of an AMERICAN citizen to receive a Phd in whatever discipline that an H1B candidate has.

They let in 100,000 H1B's,they FULLY FUND 100,000 scholarships.

Cut a tree ,plant a tree.

by sleepin'dawg

Canada already has programs in place to offset much of this but the problem in Canada is not getting the unemployed or underemployed to relocate as it is in finding them in the first place.

by too old for it

... cranking out the equivalent to a H-1B visa, and that little patch of the planet needs all the help they can get.

The people of MExic would be much better off with a government that can get it right 10% of the time rather than the incumbant socialist worker's paradise.

by haas

I agree with most comments posted here and I think we all agree that the main issue here is the corporate greed. The whole discussion here covered an issue or another related to H1B visas and jobs.

Corporation will do anyhting to get more money/profit for less cost (therefore off-shoring or outsourcing), it is a fact of today's life, competition is good be it between corporations competing for markets, skilled workers, and profits and between employees, that is to say IT professionals today have to find ways to compete by upgarding our skills thru training, education or other means and be as felxible as possible (re-location, taking maybe less money).

It's a situation that pushed many people over the edge, I know many friends that are currently working for less, changed careers because they couldn't wait for the IT marked to pick up, and basically they couldn't wait while the bills keep coming.

In my personal experience, I had to accept a job at a community college to help teachers use more technology in their classrooms and promote media/technolgy ready classrooms and of course with less money, in addition, I had to do side jobs in my field as a System Engineer to compensate for the lost money. All the jobs available in my area (chicago area) are help desk, tech support and most of them are either contract jobs wihtout benefits or jobs with low pay.

Things are changing and we have to adapt until we see the light at the end of the tunnel.

by jdclyde

You would be amazed how many tech jobs there are in non-tech firms. Many have inventory management, hr records, placing orders/sales, and even just internal email.

Many of the best jobs are in the places most techs don't think to look. There is less competition and you don't have as much of the ridged corporate structure to get stiffled by.

Good luck looking for the light!

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