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Does it realy matter?

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by rrgilmore_2001

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I think things should matter and some should not.
I agree with a background check, but I do not agree with what matters. What matters are embezzlement, theft, and violence? What do you think matters?
Do you think it is right to hold the past of a person against them, Should a person be punished more than once for a crime?
If you think turning someone down because of there
Record is not punishment; it is punishment comes in many forms.
Why should a highly qualified person be turned down forthe job ,if they have a drug conviction?
What does it matter misdemeanor or felonies you still got in trouble.
I just don't get it.
Where is the logic behind it?

57 replies

by james r linn

Would you want a habitual drug user as:
The pilot of the plane you are riding.
The operator of the nuclear plant beside your house.
The person driving the 18 wheel truck full of gasoline.

I know I don't. And while not conclusive, a drug conviction is often an indication of habitual use - how many users break the habit successfully? And a drug selling conviction is far worse.

Many IT jobs give people access to all sorts of confidential data. You need to hire people for these positions who can be trusted not to abuse their access to others data. In the last two jobs I have had I had to have security clearance - not only no criminal convictions, but no bankruptcies.

Now there are mitigating factors - if there was one conviction along time ago, and lots of evidence of good work and a clean record since, depending on the nature of the job, I might be inclined to consider such an applicant.

But in areas where security is a concern, where information needs to be absolutely secret - I can understand why they would consider a drug conviction.

James

by road-dog

I believe that a person's background DOES matter.

An employee represents his employer and is custodian of the employer's reputation. This being the case, if I were hiring and had a pool of applicants for a position, an individual with a conviction for drug use, posession, or dealing would automatically be weeded out.

Why risk a company's reputation on someone with a record of bad judgement? Likewise, a person with an other than honorable discharge from the armed forces should not make it past stage one of the hiring process.

As a small businessman, I think that the attitude presented in the original posting is indicative of the mindset that I would not want in an employee. Rather than asking advice on how to overcome a bad record, rrgilmore chooses to complain about the unfairness of the system.

rrgilmore should be asking how to convince a prospective company that he has learned from his mistakes and assure them that he is of the proper character for the job.

by packratt

You should know that there is no convincing anyone that you can be a good employee, especially people like you who could never understand what it's like to not have everything handed to you. You are full of it and you know it, you just wanted to take this opportunity to spew a little about how your some big bad boss and how you have all this power to decide who earns dinner for their family and who starves.

You are a small minded and utterly corrupt fool. You epitomise that which is most despised about businessmen.

Here's how I can tell that you are full of it you hypocritical jerk. You say that a person with a record is AUTOMATICALLY weeded out. Then you have the cajones to say that this person should ask how to convince a prospective company otherwise.

Typical double talking, lying businessman. Thanks for demonstrating that for me.

by rrgilmore_2001

How long is long enough? 2,4,6,years or moore?
You ask how many users brake the habbit, only the one's who want to do.
mitigating factors you say? They do not care I know this for a fact.
You are worried about security of information.
1 to talk about anything confidential would be unethnical.
2 the information is no ones buissness, except who has the right to use it.
3 who would jeperdise there career for whatever is going on in your head?

Not me no way

by ptw

rrgilmore_2001, I would try to ensure that no prospective employer sees your submissions on this.
You display an haphazardness of mind, and lack of logic that would definitley count against you, regardless of your criminal/non-criminal status.

Iagree that some things should matter, and some should not. People should be accountable for their actions. I am aware that a person with an apparently clean record, may just have been lucky so far. A person with a record has an extra 'intelligence item' built in, because an employer is aware of something in their past and can (and will) judge them accordingly. That judgement should be tempered by the hopeful employee's behaviour since then, taking into account time lapse and so on.
However, drugs bring in an entirely different aspect again.
It is an incredibly complex arena, and I look forward to the wealth of postings there are bound to be.

by mrafrohead

I call your bluff!!!

I do drugs. Regularly. Acid, Pot and Shrooms...

What's the big deal with being able to get my hands on Confidential Data??? Big whoop. What I see, stays WITH ME. I am one of the best people to tell a secret to. I don't tell anyone. You want to know why??? Because it's no one else's business!!!!!!! I show up to work on time. EVERY SINGLE DAY!!! Sick or not!!! I don't go home, unless I am sent home for being too sick!!!

You stoopid azz people think that because someone does something that is out of the norm, we're criminals and cant be trusted. I feel sorry for you all and your ignorance.

To make myself clear though, I mean those of you that feel that drug users are bad employees.

And another thing, just because of a conviction. Screw off. You lamers don't even take the time to listen to the circumstances.

by mrafrohead

I was convicted of a crime once. I sold beer to a minor. Here's what happened. This 17 Year old kid came in one day with a license that said he was 21. I sold him beer. The license was a VERY good copy. I couldn't tell it was fake, and I inspected it thoroughly due to how young this person looked. A week later, the same person came in to buy beer. Since I recognized him, i didn't card him the next time. Sold him the beer. It was a sting. This time the license was a different one thatsaid he was 17. I tried to explain that to prospective employers. They didn't want to even hear it. Funny huh...

Here's the other funny thing. My employer is constantly telling me how she wishes that the other employee's were like me. That they would finish things on a timely manner. Retain the information that they're given. Were as responsible as me.

I hope that you really do learn something from this note I have just written. Pull your heads our of your ass's.

Just because you're ignorant to something doesn't mean that you know what you are talking about.

You base your decision based on your impression and skills of the person that is to be hired. Not their past!!!

Mrafrohead
mrafrohead@yahoo.com

by generalist

As with anything, there are exceptions to the rules of thumb that society uses to judge people. From what you are saying, you are one of those people who are able to keep their drug use from impacting their work and their interactions with society. The fact that you don't have any drug convictions seems to prove this.

Unfortunately, those who have drug convictions are 'marked' with the 'fact' that they can't keep their drug use from impacting their interactions with society. Whether it isbad luck, stupidity or revenge that 'marked' them in the first place, they have to live with the consequences.

Basing decisions on drug convictions isn't fair to those who no longer let drug use impact their current interactions with society. But it is a convenient rule of thumb that allows decision makers to avoid making a wrong choice that could cost lives or vast amounts of money. You can blame the legal profession for this mindset.

It would be interesting to see statistics on how accurate this rule of thumb is. I suspect that accuracy would be directly correlated with the number of drug convictions.

I wouldn't know from experience though. Unless you consider science fiction and fantasy to be a drug, I steer clear of anything stronger than Pepto Bismo. Even then acquaintances who get drunk and/or stoned have wondered what type of drugs I use to come up with some of the thoughts I talk about.

A fertile imagination is a wonderful thing...

by jklein

This is a great country. A nation where a guy who has been arrested and convicted 3 times can become governor of a state and then president.

Don't even ask about his wife. You don't want to go there.

We don't need no stinking background checks.

If we don't check into the background of the commander in chief why worry about your new employee?

Someone please pass the crack!

by mrafrohead

Isn't it funny how that kind of thing works. Ie. the president???

So then, why is it that all of these places that employ minimum wage paid workers are so worried about being "drug free"???

I can tell you this....

I've smoked pot driving out of the parking lot of an interview. The next day I took their stinkin little piss test and passed it.

You know, just because someone has been arrested of something and convicted of something doesn't mean that they are a bad person. Now when you're looking at something like three times, that would be a little more like a pattern. That would be where I would investigate and use discretion.

Flukes happen though. Ever heard of being in the wrong place at the wrong time???

Ever been driving down the road going to speed limit. Have someone pass you, and then YOU get pulled over??? Mr. Policeman made a mistake and thought he got you instead of the real speeder??? There's an example for you...

Now there are truly bad people, and if you can't feel them out from their presense, then you should not be in charge of hiring.

But there are people out there who's recreational activities are different than yours. Doesn't make them bad people. And just because someone was young and dumb once, doesn't mean that they still are.

A lot of you in this posting are quite negative. I'm really surprised. Actually kind of let down. I got into the computer world partly because of how laid back it is. But y'all make me feel like I need to stick a carrot in my ass and join a freakin country club whilst putting on my golf pants with my wife "Buffy".

Thank you for truly opening my eyes!!!

Mrafrohead

by packratt

And nothing changes, this is how those in power hold power, by maintaining status quo.

Does a conviction matter? How can it when you had been "rehabilitated"? But, there is no rehabilitation, it is punishment, retribution, revenge. The police andgovernment are not about protecting the public, they are about protecting themselves. They are not about justice, they are about revenge. The fact that you are taken out of prison and subjected to a life of poverty due to discrimination only proves this. The rich must have a poor class to stay rich.

Of bankruptcies and credit reports determining your worthiness of a job, they too are tools to kill the poor, to destroy the hopes of those who would try to better themsleves and their situations. All this BS about everyone having a chance to succeed and rags to riches myths is bunk. It's BS! It's blatent garbage!!! Credit reports DO NOT determine what a person will do when given a REAL chance to succeed in something other than a dead end and barely above poverty level paying job.

Unfair, yes. That's life amoung humans, so I've been learning.

by rdschaefer

Wow, I don't know what happened to you to cause such a reaction but please try to believe it was an anomoly. I am living proof that things can get better. I grew up in a very lower-middle class environment on the near-west side of Cleveland, Ohio. I couldn't afford college so I started working in a gas station. Because I was hard-working and proved myself honest, I was made assistant-mgr in 6 months. Later I started in a machine shop. In 2 years, I went from knowing nothing to being the highest-paid apprentice there. Again, later I was able to take some aptitude tests and was hired as an assistant-programmer. In 2 years I made senior-programmer.
Now (17 years later) I am an in-house consultant at a very large financial institution.
I've said all of this not to brag (I believe God deserves the credit) but to show that it DOES indeed make a difference how you live and what choices you make.

Ralph

by packratt

I grew up in Youngstown Ohio, single mother raised me until she married a guy that like to beat the crap outta me. They kicked me out at 15 and I was homeless for two years. I finally went to college and worked through that and tried the military aswell. Started as a steel worker and then started from the bottom of the computer barrel in a small mom an pop op.

Now I'm a network engineer... It still doesn't matter... I have a wife that cannot work and gets sicker each day because I cannot afford her medical care. I have two children who are having problems because of all the moves we had to make after failed relocations and evictions. I also take care of my mother in law since she is ill as well. I work almost constantly, I've only beenhome two full weekends so far this year. And I still barely make enough.

IT DOES NOT MATTER NO MATTER WHAT WE DO!

by zlitocook

For computers, they offten hire hackers and crackers because of what they know. Some people become thiefs because they are tring to help their familys or just tring to get enough to eat. People who take drugs or drink are doing this ether to get more out of life or to get away from it. I grew up in the 60s I might know a little about this:) Give a person a chance you might get the best employee you ever had! But with any one you take a chance! Think about it!

by rrgilmore_2001

I am not asking for a hand out or a give me, just a chance to prove that I am your best investment yet. Take a chance roll the dice I will tell you this much. Here's what I will do for that chance I will take a drug test everyday and twice-on Sunday. I do not use anymore I realize what I did was stupid!!!!!! What more can I say or do.

The worst filling in the world is after you hired
they call you and wake you up to tell you. I am sorry we have to let you go your DOJ came back.
That is not the worst before they hired my I told them, I wrote it down on the application. Here’s what I was told as long as you’re up front with it and honest with it we can employee you.
I might have blanked up but I am not a liar or thief

R

by road-dog

let me explain (not justify) the rarionale behind your treatment.

As I said in another posting on this thread, You as an employee represent that company's image, and are tasked with maintenance of its reputation.

A company assumes some risk in the employment of each employee. With a larger pool of applicants chasing a smaller number of open positions, employers have the advantage of being choosier.

If an applicant has a blemish on his record, however slight, they are automatically a less attractive risk than an applicant with a clean record. It doesn't mean they think you're a dirtbag, it just means that there are other options available to them.

I suggest looking more aggressively at smaller, more dynamic, and flexible organizations for employment. The money isn't as good, but you can establish a solid reference and work history to outweigh your blemished record. You can use it also to build skills that are necessary enough to an employer to make your potential value outweigh risk.

I'm optimistic that when the economy comes back around, IT will again be an "in demand" skillset and your prospects will improve further...

Get in, dig in, be ready for it.

by greggen

Most people have broken the law, on several occasions. Only those who were offically caught (and did not plea-bargain the charges down) are marked with a record.

It never ceases to amaze me how people look down their noses at someone who was caught, even when they are guilty of the same actions. The difference, they were not caught, charged...

It is true that some people with a conviction have learned their lesson and would be a lot better choice for a job that someone without a conviction. But with a tight labor market, any negative is reason enough to exclude someone.

For the record, I do think that past convictions are an indicator of future behaviour. Most who have stolen before will steal again. Robbed before, rob again. User before, use again. Ect before, ect again.

Greggen

by rdschaefer

Where in the world did you get the idea that "most people have broken the law on several occasions"? Out of all the people I know, only one has deliberatly broken the law and she had mental problems.

Ralph

by road-dog

Those crying foul over companies not giving felons a chance seem to believe that their crimes are commonplace. This is unrealistic. The overwhelming majority of people do not break the law, except for traffic infractions. When one considers that juvenile offense records are sealed, this throws out "youthful indescretions" as disqualifiers.

In a potential candidate for a position who has been convicted of a crime, one can make a few assumptions:

1) They have broken the law
2) It was not their first offense
3) They did it in such a haphazard way as to be caught
4) They were not intelligent enough to convince a single person out of 12 that they were innocent

This being the case, a convict, regardless of "rehabilitation" may not bea good candidate for employment on grounds of stupidity....

by road-dog

Packrat,

Let me clarify a few things. There are lots of companies in America, mine is just one. The hiring practices of other companies does not concern me.

I've had NOTHING "handed to me". I'm the son of a carpet installer and the grandson of a cab driver. I Joined the Marine Corps 8 days after my 18th birthday because I had 0.nada chance of affording college.

I've gotten where I am due to my efforts. Opportunity doesn't knock, its the point where preparation and circumstance intersect.

If you and your family starve, its not because some "big bad boss" wills it, it is because of your own shortcomings. If you seek the cause of your problems, look into the mirror.

You call me corrupt, yet you are the one who feels "entitled" to opportunity. Therein lies true corruption, the assumption that you are entitled to co-opt a paycheck from an employer because you justify it in your own bitter "reality".

by packratt

Entitlement works both ways, just because you OWN a business does not make you ENTITLED to all the money it earns UNLESS you are the only one working there! Seems that all of you people who scream and moan about the poor wanting entitlements think that the world owes you everything just because you were lucky enough to gain ownership of something that requires the labor of others to make successful. Seems that you also think that those who you employ owe you cheap labor and their share of the profits too.

Talk to me about entitlements, sheesh, you fell for the standard republican spiel.

As a worker I am entitled to a fair share of that which I do for the company for which I work, and that is all that I feel entitled to. But we don't get that even because of shrews like you. Because of myopic know-it-all fools like you we have to deal with this constant employee vs employer stigmas and derision. You think we're all lazy and want everything for free where we just want to earn a decent living doing something that is appreciated.

You know, as well as I, that you do represent the common attitude of business owners and managers today, so don't give me that crap about other companies being more compassionate than you are and that makes up for your intolerance. Again, I say that you are the prime example of all that is wrong with businessmen.

by road-dog

Packrat,

There is a fundamantal difference between an employee and a partner. An employee agrees through beginning employment to sell his skills and time for $X.00 per manhour. He has not been pressganged off the street and can leave for the "better deal" at any time. If the company tanks, the employee is out of a job, and nothing else.

On the other hand, a partner assumes RISK as well as reward. Shareholders are partners in this respect. They invest money and time to build a company.So, if you're a handyman and a homeowner contacts you to paint a house. You agree on a price, but you think its a little low, but it is all that the homeowner is going to pay you to do it. The job gets done, you are paid the agreed amount for the job. If the homeowner sells that house for $X.00 amount of profit, how much of that are you entitled to?

It is the same thing in business.

If you don't like it, start your own company. (it can be done on a shoestring, I did it). Invest your OWN time, effort and money. (at the expense of your own immediate enjoyment and those extras for your family) Spend nights worrying about accounts receivable, making payroll, and finding & financing the next job. After all the effort, I'm sure that you would see things differently.

EASY:
Whine about circumstances, wish things were better.

HARD:
Work, make a job if you cannot find one, Build a company.

This BB is full of folks who have "been there & done that". Instead of picking their minds for tips on how to be successful in our chosen vocation, you choose to use this forum to spout your socialist wannabe gripes and fantasies. Learn from this forum, it has a lot to offer.

A final observation..
If you're worth $X.00 per hour as an employee, you are worth $X.00 + $0.00 per hour if your wife is sick, you had a crappy childhood, or even if Karl Marx said differently..

by admin

>>Should a person be punished more than once for a crime?

Well, according to at least some of our laws in the US, some aspects of this are not a second punishment but rather a part of the original punishment which means you are not being punished twice. Also rehabilitation is not the same as being set back to an original condition prior to the condition that caused one to seek rehabilitation in the first place.

Having said that, it really depends on the unique needs of a position to a large degree, including the culture and nature of the business. This is probably more important than the individuals circumstances in most hiring decisions today, although the individual situation will still be considered by some businesses.
Whether or not our drug laws are right or wrong, breaking them demonstrates an unwillingness to conform to social mores and businesses generally demand a higher amount of conformity to their culture than the government therefore they screen out people that break these. Of course there are also some jobs that reward this. I would be surprised if the admin at NORML or High Times was NOT a convicted drug user.

by chrisms

Having read all the posts on this discussion, one thing strikes me. There are 2 types of people, those who worked hard and got somewhere, those who didn't, and your views reflect which category you fall into.
Personally, when I left school, I joined the army for 12 years, since leaving the army (4 years ago), I have not held a job for more than 12 months. Why, because I can not land a job that is challenging enough for me and I get bored, which then makes me my own worst enemy.
I have ben lucky inso much as I have no civil convictions, mainly because I have not been in civie street long enough to get any yet, and I never got caught in the army doing anything really bad, I could always bluff my way out of it. The only thing that seems to be stopping me getting a job, if you believe all the HR people, is experience, never mind my past or the fact that I have studied hard. Heres the catch, without experience you don't get the job, without the job you don't get experience. I make do with hat I got until something better comes along, eventually my luck will change.
To all who think life owes them something, and they know who they are, life owes you exactly what you put into it!!!!!!!!!!
Chris

by packratt

You do not get out what you put into life, it is not an even exchange.

You get what others are willing to let you have no matter how hard you work towards something better. Anyone who tells you otherwise is full of it.

I worked damn hard to crawl out of the gutter and I am but one step away from falling back on any given day.

by admin

There is such a thing as getting dealt a rough hand.

We would like sometimes to think that our destinies rely entirely on what we can control, and they obviously do not. Some things we can control and some we can't. It sounds like you are doing the absolute best you can in a difficult situation. Sticking with your family and taking care of them the best you can under these conditions, to me, demonstrates tremendous moral fortitude.

by packratt

Yeah, you would think that would matter for something. But in the scheme of things, I have still failed my family and that's just the fact of it...

The only reason I mention it is to put an end to this demented notion that if you work hard enough that you can acheive some goal or 'american dream' when that just is not the case at all.

by james r linn

I don't define failure the same way. My father worked hard, and we still struggled. We lived in the country and raised our own food, having a big garden, raising chickens and pigs. I bought my school clothes with money I earned in the summer. My parents didn't contribute to my university education. Economically, you might say he failed.

But the children he raised are economically independant, hard working people, who have done well, never been in trouble with the law, and all contribute to society.

Likewise my kids will probably have to pay for their own college, and I can't afford to have them play expensive sports like hockey. They have to share bedrooms, accept hand me downs, and shop at Value Village.

But I don't think I've failed. They are bright happy kids who excel at school, are kind and considerate and well mannered. That to me is far more important thing than the material stuff.

We all go through trials of one kind or another. I've been through financial difficulties, personal problems, health issues with my family. You only fail when you give up in dispare.

James

by packratt

My experience tells me that karma is a fallacy. I've done many things to help others without much thought towards karma or getting anything in return. Things from loans when I had little to give myself to giving those less fortunate than I have a place to get on their feet, even saved a life or two.

Things that go around do not come back around I'm afraid. Being good and working hard mean nothing to the world at large, there is no just reward like everyone seems to think. I should know.

by mrafrohead

Packratt - I understand your frustration to a point.

My life has been quite crazy also. Every single time you feel as if you are about to start to get on your feet, you're knocked right back over. Sometimes even harder than the time before.

The only thing I can say to you is this: PLEASE don't lose hope. Things will get better. They always do. Sometimes it just takes longer than you would think.

I myself have had a great streak of luck for the last year. I can tell you though that the three to four years before this have been quite hellish.

You keep doing things right, and your payback will be well worth your time and your troubles.

I wish to you all of the fortunate opportunities that I have received recently. I hope that you are able to experience some of the good out of life that I have found not too long ago to be true.

Just don't lose your hope;)

Mrafrohead
@yahoo.com

Send a note if you want to further discuss this.

by packratt

If your assumption was correct then executives who let their companies go into bankruptcy or were so incompetent as to lay off employees just to make a profit would starve as well.

But, they do quite well even after many failures. Sorta puts yourdarwin idea down the head, doesn't it?

Want to try again?

by road-dog

If Kenneth Lay becomes CEO of another company, you MIGHT be correct. If the executives can run a company into the ground and walk away whistling with a golden parachute, don't you think that they've taken steps to ensure their economic survival?

Even though there were many spectacular failures of corporations in the last 18 months, many thousands of companies did not.

Go ahead and continue to half empty yourself into oblivion. There are people moving upward and onward even in this economy. Feeling sorry for yourself won't help you, and your self defeating ans corporation hating attitude will only prolong your suffering.

Have you given any consideration to the fact that prospective employers watch these boards? Do you think you're helping your chances?

by mrafrohead

Why do you think that we use "nicks" here...

do you think i would write what I wrote earlier in this post to my boss??? No way. That's none of their business...

by packratt

You're saying that it's an admirable quality to be able to walk away from a failure that destroys the lives of thousands just because you were underhanded enough to squander away millions for a parachute and cash out while convincing everyone else to keep investing? I see who your role models are.

Given that, and every other cold hearted thing you've said so far. What makes you think for a second that I would WANT to work for anyone remotely like you?!? I would be perfectly happy if someone like you NEVER got my resume, you don't deserve someone as good as I am working to make you rich, you leach.

So, you think that I should keep my opinions to myself just because I'll upset some businessman with my opinion? So, you think I should beCENSORED with threats of financial ruin? Why don't you go live in China you facist, they're all for censorship there.

It's free speech you facist, that means that I don't have to be rich to speak my mind!!!

by packratt

I would agree with you on that...

But I can't remember the last time there wasn't a crisis in my life. Now my wife is sick again while we are still trying to get out of debt from the last time she had surgery and the loss of our son. Now they sayshe will likely need another operation and that she may also have an aotic aneurysm as well on top of her pancreas problem. The problem now is getting the time off work to take her without loosing my job and the fact that we can't even afford the battery of tests she needs before she can see the doctor again.

So, you see, I am failing her. I am failing my family since I couldn't do better than this. To work so hard and still not be able to provide for my family is frustrating and to hear managers and executives say it's the workers fault that they cannot afford things when they earn 500 times what we do is obscene.

by mrafrohead

If you were standing in front of me and had said that Mr Linn, I would applaude you!!!

I agree 110%.

I remember when my parents lived in a trailer that their parents owned. We were so poor we were on welfare. My dad worked his ass off to keep us afloat.

In his working so hard, my parents are now well to do. They are no longer poor. They can do what they want, when they want. And the part that I feel is neat about it, is towards the end my parents made sure that I got anything thatI NEEDED (note: not wanted).

I feel that my parents were HUGE success's. They never gave up through thick and thin. And I can tell you, that for some time, it was VERY thin.

Maybe that's the reason that I try to always have hope. I watchedit happen with my own parents.

mrafrohead

by mrafrohead

Packrat - Here's the million dollar question here...

In all of your abilities are you doing the best that you can???

If you are, then you ARE NOT failing yourself. Being a victim of circumstances is not failure.

Allowing things to happen though, that you DO have control of, is.

It sounds to me like you are trying to the best of your abilities.

My opinion may not matter to you. I just hope that you will at least think about this sentence here.-----------> {DO NOT GIVE UP!}You want to keep your energies positive. Don't allow the negative to consume you. When that happens, bad things happen with it. I know from personal experience.

You have the power to stay on top of your game, don't let it swallow you. Stay positive and do the best that you possibly can and everything will work out. You just have to truly believe it.

Mrafrohead

by packratt

people who can afford to invest in a business by owning one or being a partner have NO RISK. Again, I ask you to point me to one of these mythical beings that were once CEOs and are now poor. NONE EXIST! There is no risk because these people have vast resources and if the company tanks they can buy another one or leach on someplace else to ruin more lives for their own benefit. This bs about partners and owners deserving all the pie because of some nonexistant risk is assinine.

Just look at Enron, the executives ruined everything and they got hundreds of millions, hardly a risk. The employees lost life savings and retirements and livelyhoods, theirs was the risk, they had the most to lose! Again, you are full of it!

Again, another manager who insists I am some socialist or communist just because I don't fall for the rich jerk lines and lies. We accept to sell huge portions of our lives because that is all the choice we have because of jerks like you insisting that we owe you theworld just because you are a businessman when you would be NOTHING without our hard work.

I never insisted that the government give everyone handouts for nothing. All I do is insist that jerks like you give your fair share to the people off who'sbacks you make your fortunes. Yet you and your kind refuse and workers socialists.

Again, I still say that you are showing me the worst side of the businessman, you give me the reasons why you and your ilk should be despised.

by packratt

No, you're right... I'm just getting tired of it all and a bit frustrated that everything circles around money for most people and that nothing else matters to them. It's silly of me to want something better for everyone and it's pretty stupid of meto expect change by just telling people that things are horrible in the world and that it could and should be better.

Just tilting the windmills I suppose, and this is what I get for it. Just tired, poor, older and cynical.

by road-dog

Packrat,

I hope that every manager that even considers employing you is a member of this forum so that they know what they?re getting into by hiring you. You may think your posting alias gives enough anonymity, but clicking on the alias gives your profile name. Incidentally, freedom of speech applies only to government suppression of free expression. When I advised you to be careful on what you post in this very public forum, you again announced your complete lack of common sense by proclaiming censorship. For your family?s sake I hope that you can suppress your petulance for long enough to complete a job interview without them tossing your obnoxious ass onto the street. Surely your family is in dire straits if they rely on your employability to prevent ?starvation?.

You seem to be of the unshakable belief that every business owner is evil, every business another Enron. You will undoubtedly be a problem employee at whatever company is unfortunate enough to hire you. When you do gain employment and begin working ?for the man? your bitterness and self-loathing will be profound.

I am an employee and a business owner. I see the relationship from both sides. You may not believe it, but even CEOs are employees; highly compensated, but employees nonetheless. They are paid to look out for shareholders. You can believe that they are all Kenneth Lay and haven?t been caught yet.

I?ve been trying to educate you, not berate you. I won?t try to do so anymore, as it has certainly been a waste of time. I?m sure that you?ll post grandly how you?ve chased ?another evil businessman? away. But much like the dog in my neighborhood that barks incessantly at 3:00 AM much to the annoyance of everyone, you haven?t won anything; you?re simply not worth the effort.

Good luck in your endeavors, I suspect that you will require it by the metric ton.

by ttrinh

This was your post...

It Still Does Not Matter!
I grew up in Youngstown Ohio, single mother raised me until she married a guy that like to beat the crap outta me. They kicked me out at 15 and I was homeless for two years. I finally went to college and worked through that and tried the military as well. Started as a steel worker and then started from the bottom of the computer barrel in a small mom an pop op.

Now I'm a network engineer... It still doesn't matter... I have a wife that cannot work and gets sicker each day because I cannot afford her medical care. I have two children who are having problems because of all the moves we had to make after failed relocations and evictions. I also take care of my mother in law since she isill as well. I work almost constantly, I've only been home two full weekends so far this year. And I still barely make enough.

===================================

You work almost constantly, and you still have time for all this postings ? ( not only several postings in this thread, but almost evrywhere else, sometimes, the threads were not even relevant to your current situation). So it's either your current job allows you to be online constantly without much to do but post, or else you are not working as hard as you claim. In that case, should you work more to make a better living for your family, or try to satisfy your bitterness by posting online ? It seems you care more about your feeling than the well being of your family ?

I am just asking all these questions based on the un-substantiated claims you have made in your own posts.

Tuan

by packratt

Whether you beleive me or not doesn't concern me. I will say this though, I choose to be honest at the potential cost of employability as road dog says, what reason would I have to lie about anything if this is true?

I know that you and I have sparred in the past as well, and you carrying this over now while I am a bit down is normal, quite common to kick someone when their down, right?

Well, let's just say that I'm giving that one last kick before I go down for the count and I really don't see a future for myself to work towards or hope for. So I will sit here and try to talk some sense into anyone that will listen before I can't do that anymore.

by mrafrohead

"Well, let's just say that I'm giving that one last kick before I go down for the count and I really don't see a future for myself to work towards or hope for."

Pardon my french, but, WTF is this Packratt!?!?!

You see there's a problem with this sentence here. It is not the sentence of someone that is trying to do his best for his family.

If you do give up, then you will be letting your family down. Contrary to popular belief there are some people in here that still have faith in others. They feel that it is possible to overcome the negative no matter what they may face.

It's time to stop feeling sorry for yourself Packratt. Suck it up, stand up and start fighting for your family. It sounds like they need you right now.

This is a great place for you to vent it appears, as I'm sure that you can't talk about this kind of thing at home. You have to be the solid wall to support everyone. Well, it's time to mend the cracks in that wall. You have some more supporting to do. Be strong and stay positive.

You can win this whole fiasco if you truly do want to.

As I offered once before, send me a note and maybe I can help in some small way. You can try to view this as a small bit of light in the darkness.
I can't stress this enough. Do NOT give up. That will be failure. Then you will have become what you sound like you are trying so hard not to be.

Mrafrohead
@yahoo.com

by ttrinh

Packratt,

I never talked to you before, let alone sparring with you. I just happenned to read several of your posts everywhere (really everywhere, it's hard to miss :-)), so I know you post a lot in this site. I just pointed out in this message some inconsistencies I saw, since some of your claims didn't make sense to me. I certainly believe you are going thru a hard period, so by pointing out some of those details, I was hoping you would more or less get back to reality, and find a way out,as you seem to devote your time now mostly to complain about it rather than to do anything about it...

I have no personal grudge whatsoever, and wish you all the luck to recover from your current situation.

TTrinh@JT-Int.com

by packratt

I've been in this industry for many years now, but I appreciate your advice anyways... Well, not really.

So... You fancy yourself a government in and of itself. Ah, the power has gone to your head as it does for all of your type... Nice of you towish harm on me an my family, that's awfully managerial of you considering I never did the same in return. Ah, but that's what I get for being honest and sincere when dealing with someone who obviously has no morals whatsoever.

It's funny, because I'm that dog barking at you, and you only hear that which suits you. Must be too used to all those brown nosers in the world to suffer the truth anymore.

As I said before, I would be more than happy if every close minded manager in the world read my posts so that they wouldn't bother me ever again. That way, I could get past all the trash companies like yours and get offers from the rare companies that don't BS their employees and don't treat them like crap or like their opinions don't matter.

Work is one thing, and my personal beliefs are another and it's extremely foolish of you to think that I cannot be professional and do what I need to for my employer and do it well. Of course, that's what I've asserted all along, that you werea fool because you can't hear anyone else's point due to your own egotistical megalomania brought on by delusions of grandure just because you own some company and repress people who work for you. Well, tough, I don't work for you and if you don't like what I say then don't read it.

by packratt

The funniest thing about your post is that you are angry with me for supposedly believing that every CEO is like the one's at Enron while you obviously believe that every person with a conviction, bad credit, or other than honerable discharge is going to do everything wrong.

Can you say hypocritical?

by road-dog

Packrat,

I hope that every manager that even considers employing you is a member of this forum so that they know what they're getting into by hiring you. You may think your posting alias gives enough anonymity, but clicking on the alias gives your profile name. Incidentally, freedom of speech applies only to government suppression of free expression. When I advised you to be careful on what you post in this very public forum, you again announced your complete lack of common sense by proclaiming censorship. For your family's sake I hope that you can suppress your petulance for long enough to complete a job interview without them tossing your obnoxious ass onto the street. Surely they are in dire straits if they rely on your employabilityto prevent "starvation".

You seem to be of the unshakable belief that every business owner is evil, every business another Enron. You will undoubtedly be a problem employee at whatever company is unfortunate enough to hire you. When you do gain employment and begin working "for the man" your bitterness and self-loathing will be profound.
take II -
I am an employee and a business owner. I see the relationship from both sides. You may not believe it, but even CEOs are employees; highly compensated, but employees none the less. They are paid to look out for shareholders. You can believe that they are all Kenneth Lay and haven?t been caught yet.

I've been trying to educate you, not berate you. I won't try to do so anymore, as it has certainly been a waste of time. I'm sure that you'll post grandly how you?ve chased "another evil businessman" away. But much like the dog in my neighborhood that barks incessantly at 3:00 AM much to the annoyance of everyone, you haven't won anything; you?re simply not worth the effort.

Good luck in your endeavors, I suspect that you will require it by the metric ton.

by rrgilmore_2001

I would like to thank you for taking the time to comment. I would like to hear more on your insight in to my communication. I would really like to know what you thought I was saying or what it appeared to communicate.
Once again I would like to thank you for your comments
R

by jklein

My point is that background checks for the most point dont work.

A backgound check to me is the equivalant of the security folks at the airport asking you if you packed your own bag. look where thats got us.

Not only that but since a great minority of americans like to use drugs recreationally you are baring yourself from a large part of the labor pooland missing out on alot of good talent.

Carl Sagan believed that mind altering drugs enhanced his understanding of the world. He might be right.

by mrafrohead

I gotcha, missunderstood you before;)

As for Carl Sagan, I would agree with you. It definately allows for a different perspective of your surroundings.

And as for the minority of Americans, I actually think that it's majority;) And I do agree that a lot of great talent will be lost because of people's work trying to interfere with their personal lives.

What goes on at home stays at home, what goes on at work stays at work. What ever happened to that little phrase???

It's none of your employers business if you are not bringing it to work with you!!!

Mrafrohead

by rkliwon

nobody knows the real answer to your question. maybe you should see a philosepher. Or just take your bible to bed with you. As jesus said: let the first man to cast a stone be the one without sin.
Judging others by their mistakes is never right; one should always take in consideration the potential of that person.
But your past does matter, because it is the basis(fundament)of your present and future. People do not believe in what you say, but more in what you do. And since nobody knows what you doing today or are going to do in the future; that's why people tend to look at your past.
Therefor do your best to keep yourself and your past clean and thereby your present in good shape and your future promising...
GOOD LUCK TO YOU IN LIFE!!!

by rkliwon

nobody knows the real answer to your question. maybe you should see a philosepher. Or just take your bible to bed with you. As jesus said: let the first man to cast a stone be the one without sin.
Judging others by their mistakes is never right; one should always take in consideration the potential of that person.
But your past does matter, because it is the basis(fundament)of your present and future. People do not believe in what you say, but more in what you do. And since nobody knows what you doing today or are going to do in the future; that's why people tend to look at your past.
Therefor do your best to keep yourself and your past clean and thereby your present in good shape and your future promising...
GOOD LUCK TO YOU IN LIFE!!!

by lauraellison

In many cases the person continues to have the same tendencies and propensity to commit the same crimes over. However a strong willed person can change the tendencies by learning the value of a change.

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