General discussion


downloading wave files.storing and burning

By mjd420nova ·
Presently I am using an Intel P4 at 3.0 gig, and a creative LIVE sound card to listen to VH1 Radio. Many times I find a selection I don't have on tape, record, CD or in my machine yet.
I start the sound recorder and record while listening to it. At the end I get to name it and
then decide a directory to save it in. For certain occasions I will collect these and burn them to a CD. Is this legal? I'm an old vacuum tube technician and have kept up to date on the latest and greatest in technology. With access to
laboratory test equipment I have found that to the average listener they cannot tell the difference between MP3 files and wave files but I
can. Just to prove it to myself I've recorded
specific tones input to the computer and recordered them in both formats and found there to be quite a difference between what I put in
and what I got out after conversion to MP3. I want all the music, not a compressed/decompressed
version, that's why I save them all in wave format. Just like recording for a radio broadcast onto tape, cd or whatever medium this
is legal, is the internet the same?

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Whether it's legal

by Tony Hopkinson In reply to downloading wave ...

or not depends on the rules in your country, for instance in the UK the law says you can keep 'taped' copyrighted material off the airwaves for thirty days (for video recording tv, but probably applies).
Quality wise wav will be better than mp3 as the compression is lossy, mp3 was invented to cut down file sizes after all.
With a full sound system anyone should be able to tell the difference, with some cheap speakers on your pc, it's much more difficult.

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Fair use

by Info-Safety, LLC In reply to downloading wave ...

In the US, there is the doctrine of fair use. See
for further information.

Craig Herberg

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NO it isn't at all legal

by Oz_Media In reply to downloading wave ...

People have been recording from the radio for many years though. TH euqlity is pathetic compared to an original and even as a WAV you still get a poor bitrate, regardless of the bit rate the THINK it is being recorded in.

Any music broadcast is licenced to the broadcaster. As soon as that person uses his/her licence to rebroacast it, they automatically assume the Intellectual Property rights to the music as it is being broadcast.

I currently licence mroe than 130 stations in the US to play music owned by the artists I represent. The radio station has IP as soon as the music is broadvcast, as soon as the broadcast is finished, the IP is then automatically passed back to the distributor, producer or artist who originally produced teh work. So the radio station claims IP for about 3 1/2 minutes and that's it.

It is not an enforced law, but it is still against copyright protection and intellectual property rights to recreate the original recording in any format.

Mind you, the artists themselves are the biggest users of P2P file sharing software and they encourage it, it's just the labels that have a problem withit, and as they have already faought a losing battle over Cassette tapes, HiFi VHS tapes and CDR's, they are now only interested in P2P as a enw way to try and get another peeny or two here and there.
In short though, LEGALLY;
Copying and saving it is 100% illegal without any question, it simply isn't enforced.

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For personal use only

by mjd420nova In reply to NO it isn't at all legal

The music I record is not resold in any way, I was to understand that as long as I never sold or distributed the material in any way I was okay. I do understand the limitations of taping
broadcasts due to the different medias used to receive and record the material. If the
manufacturers can make radio, cassette, and cd
players in one unit, it must be understood that
copying from one media to another is accepted
as inevitable.

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You'd think so anyway

by Oz_Media In reply to For personal use only

The same companies that MADE double cassette decks and blank tapes were those who fought against the legality of doing so.

The same company that MADE VHS recorders and VHS tapes, were those who fought against the legality of doing so.

So just because something is POSSIBLE, it doesn't mean it's legal.

Radio Cassetts and CD players ar eall just forms for audio playback, having them together is convenient, not an invitation to abuse copyrights.

What about cassette recorders? Some people want to record messages for family overseas, some wish to create tapes of their OWN music etc. So the case for them being made for the purpose of recoding published materials is not a vey strong one at all unfortunately.

It is an industry of hypocrisy, "You cannot record our material, BUT IF YOU DO, pelase use OUR products to do so, so we can cash in on THAT market too."

I short, nobody that I have ever heard of has been convicted or fined for recording from teh radio for personal use, I am also one who believes strongly in file sharing as long as it is not for personal profit, as are 99.999% of the artists too.

I bought TWO copies of the latest Judas PRiest CD, AFTER having it sent to me from a studio in France as an MP3.

I just wanted to hear it before it's NA release. I then immediately compressedon into a 320 MP3 for my Mp3 walkman, it is for personal use, Paid for MORE then one copy (not for that reason) and am not seekign to profit from it, just enjoy it on the go.

They got my money, I supported the band, I will be in Oregon and Washington for two shows this summer, I will buy shirts or programs (usually a way of removing guilt of getting free tickets).

So the band gets it's income from me, I pay mroe than my personal fair share for the music I enojoy and to support the band. I have no problem making an MP3 for my player and would gladly tell any band member that I did so if I was ever asked. Chances are, they have downlaoded material I sell too.

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Questions OZ

by jkaras In reply to NO it isn't at all legal

1. I know you are in the industry, but who are the bands you represent?
2. How does the radio stations get their demographics to determine who listens? Example single males 20-30 years old, ethnic demographics, yadda yadda.
3. Lastly is there really any difference in sound quality between mp3 and wma? Some claim they hear it I cant tell, other than personal preference. I burned music at 320 than 128 and I cant tell any quality difference other than wasted space.

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by Oz_Media In reply to Questions OZ

1) As far as who I represent; I share personal opinions here that often/mostly are against the grain. I am under contract to promote and distribute artists work, IF I was to share those who I actuvely sell for , I would ned to add a disclaimer to ALL of my posts to state that these are my personal opinions and not those of the artists I represent. A pain in the *** if you will, just to name drop?

There are a few bands I work(ed) with under looser restrictions though, including Annihilator, Snake Eyes, Tim 'Ripper' Owens(before he was with Judas Priest), Warjunk (casually), Trooper (mainly promo), L.A.Guns (back in the day), ZZTop (local press for another studio)and a few others.

I do distribution for some much larger acts/studios but these are under tight contracts.

I used to work as an agent for a large US production/management company, then went out on my own and was scouting with a couple of shared US offices, Cali and Oregon, but have since closed that end of the scene.

People hand you work on all kinds of projects after a while, even VERY large and popular bands will have their promoters seeklocal work. Those local studios often farm it out to guys they trust, especially when it's busy, so in essence I have worked on a LOT of stuff for some huge acts but without having any formla connection to them. Mainly I am just working with getting US bands into Europe now and getting them signed to decent labels, outside of North America, where they can actually make money without having it scooped from them.

2)Dempgraphics, the studio engineers track listeners generally by hiring third parties who conduct telemarketing research in areas the station broadcasts to. It's a lot of averages and assumptions.

3) Quality, YES a huge difference. I am at the point that if you play a song I KNOW, I can tell you if it is 128 or 320 or an originl uncompressed CD track.

For most MP3 player users, especially the i-podders, they use earbuds, in which case pretty much anything sounds like crap or sounds the same anyway.

I listen to a LOT of audio and have a fairly high end system, to me, sound quality and tone is everything. After recording symphonies for a few years, I really learned a lot about reproduction and compression/overdrive loss. I am still a newbie as far as engineering goes but compared to the average Joe, I do have a well tund ear.

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by jkaras In reply to Hmmm

You know I was talking to another guy in line at the local tickmaster waiting for tickets for Tom Petty/Black Crows and he was waiting for Judas Priest tickets. I asked him what Ripper was doing now that he was out and Rob was back in and he didnt know. I take it he's out of the business? Just curious, I never heard his stuff but people swear he sounded so like Rob that very few could tell. I would love to work in the music industry making things happen being apart of music history, it could be quite rewarding but I understand the life investment that people have to make just to be apart of it at all levels. The price can be too steep. It was a dream that I never pursued. Nice resume.

I imagined some sort of telemarketing but I have never received that kind of questions, although both times I got hired to do beer taste tests they asked me multiple questions of off topics other than beer. I always thought that I met finally a demographic for the test they were looking for and the others I answered incorrectly, interesting.

I have a Nomad Zen MP3 player and love it too death. I have recorded both 128 and 320 and really havent heard a decernable difference. I could though under 128, no doubt. I have a decent stereo, Bose AM7s, 301s, and a Denon Receiver with a Velodyne sub. Its respectable, and not cheap or low quality. At times I want more performance in certain instances, but it tends to perform quite well. Regardless of quality it should be able to display a certain factor of quality difference between the two formats. I plan on retaking my sound challenge to hear the difference. Thanks for the response, p.s. I dig that avatar you got.

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by Oz_Media In reply to Thanks

For the kind words.

As far as the music industry, I roadied for a year and a bit as well as toured with a warmup act behind Judas Priest. My favorite show was in Egypt where it was a truly religious experience.

But after a few laps of the globe, you realize it's just what everyone says..."not what it's cut out to be".

Hard work, long hours, very frustrating and testing of your patience. What I do now is much more fun though.

Engineers at radio stations can get an idea of how many people are listening, but the rotation forplaylists is predetermined and paid for by the record company (that in most cases also OWNS the radio station, clubs, venues too). They have people all over the place, collecting data from theoir record stores, concerts, clubs etc. to help in market guesstimates, but fo rthe most part, kids listen to what is played, the record label OWNS the radio station so kids buy what they are told to buy, they are SOLD on a song or two, then find the rest of teh CD is crap. THis is more responsible for a loss of revenue than all teh P2P sharing put together.

As for Ripper Owens, haven't spoken to him in over 10 years. He COULD hit some of Rob's keys but only in a near falsetto instead of an actual vocal range, yet Rob has also resorted to NEARLY falsetto tones now as even he can't hit some of those keys anymore.

But side by side, Ripper has NOTHING on Rob Halford. He has not and will not be beaten vocally in my lifetime I amsure. Th enew priest is absolutely stunning, I expected a Priest reuinion sound, but nothing compared to what I got when I first heard it. Afte that it grew on me and has actually become one of the best Priest CD's since Defenders of the Faith.

The Ripper years, well, it kept them on the map but barely. THey were playing mostly tiny venues, 1500 - 2500 seats, and usually not even th ebigger clubs in most of the towns the played.

I met up with Priest again when they did the Dehumanizer tour (2002?)at a tiny club in Vancouver, Ripper was being a bit of a putz to some girls, Glenn had a bad flu, but the rest of the band were fantastic, KK remembered me from the Anniihilator/Priest tour in Europe/Japan and we had some fun catching up on old contacts. I was still relly disappointed with the Ripper years, to most he could hit the notes, but it ws all falsetto, not really hitting the notes.

The avatar, I didn't like what was offered (nothing at first) and don't like linking to other people's work.

Send me a peer mail with some ideas if you want one done up, I did one for "house" too.

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Have you tried lossless audio codecs?

by stress junkie In reply to downloading wave ...

One lossless audio codec that appears to have been adopted by a good variety of applications is FLAC. The FLAC project is on along with a bunch of music applications that can record and play audio in FLAC format as well as many other formats. Here are some links.

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