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Ed Bott's Microsoft Challenge--2/22/01

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by ebott

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260 replies

by doc_mot

Windows XP is "Out The Window" with me.
I run a small office of 6 machines with varying configurations. There is no way I can afford $400 dollars per machine for an operating system.
If the Linux group comes out with a destop OS you can bet my shop will be first to hop on the Linux wagon.
Tally Ho Linux

by webhut33

Maybe they have a plan for this. But what if my machine dies. Is my license useless? What if I want to load Linux on an out of date machine and want to use my license on a machine I build from scratch that doesn?t come bundled software and on and on... What a pain if the *!?+@#! It would take an act of congress to get me to upgrade with XP involved.

by eddie

This sounds like a recipe for disaster, When I buy software it is for my use and to put on whatever machine I see fit (1 licence 1 machine). If I want to upgrade why should I have to ask microsofts permission by getting another key.

I wonder how the new Data protection act in the UK will deal with this, Microsoft do not have a right to know what hardware I have on my machine and I choose not to tell the software this.

I also upgrade my hardware quiet often, so how often am I going to haveto speak to Microsoft.

If it ever comes to asking the electric company if it is ok to upgrade my lamp or change a bulb then I am throwing away my techno gear and going back to bows and arrows

by eddie

This sounds like a recipe for disaster, When I buy software it is for my use and to put on whatever machine I see fit (1 licence 1 machine). If I want to upgrade why should I have to ask microsofts permission by getting another key.

I wonder how the new Data protection act in the UK will deal with this, Microsoft do not have a right to know what hardware I have on my machine and I choose not to tell the software this.

I also upgrade my hardware quiet often, so how often am I going to haveto speak to Microsoft.

If it ever comes to asking the electric company if it is ok to upgrade my lamp or change a bulb then I am throwing away my techno gear and going back to bows and arrows

by pjstrifas

There's another aspect we haven't looked into as well: OEMs inventory/new PC purchases.

Most of the answers have focused on upgrading or installing new software for end-users. With a 30-day "grace" period with Windows & Office XP - this will meanthat OEMs will have to install the software, test and verify it the day before shipping. If shipping takes 3-4 days at best that means customers will have a net of 26-27 days before registering at best!

Now I don't know about you but my last new PC purchase took 2 weeks to arrive after showing SHIPPED on Dell's website. If they "burned" the system for 48 hours - that means I'd have less than 2 weeks grace period!

Now what about companies like HP, Compaq, etc that leverage a reseller channel that stocks PCs? How will this affect the registration process? Will they need to develop an interactive installation for new PCs? This means cutting into their margins no? This can't be good for them either!

This will be interesting to see howit plays out and if OEMs will like the idea at all. Margins for OEMs are already paper thin...this could cause them some additional pain as well.

by wascheer

It's just strange to me how I have been a MS 'booster' for so long, but they seem hell-bent on making me an MS 'basher'.

This 'activation' scheme is not going to win any friends in the early-adpoter segment of the market who tend to drive acceptance of new technologies. It offers me NOTHING as an end user, and threatens to make my job much harder.

It's quite common in many of the development and quality-assurance environments that I support to reinstall OSs and/or Apps from scratch dozensof times as part of providing 'standard loads', etc. Many of these environments operate as standalone 'silos' without internet accessibility - how am I going to reactivate these machines each time I 'burn it to the ground and reimage'?

I really like MS products, and my MCSE has helped to drive my carreer forward. Looking ahead, however, I think I'll be relying more on Linux and Solaris - I just don't need the MS hassle.

by butch t.

Piracy is often quoted as one of the reasons that software prices are so ridiculously high. (Really, how many home users can afford the price of Office 2000.) Do you think it is safe to assume that we'll see dramatic reductions in the price of software once piracy is thwarted with this scheme. Dream on.

by charley

If Microsoft pushes a "Product Activation" scheme for XP, then I will not use XP. We will continue to use Win98, NT4 and Win2k. I already have ot keep track of my MS licenses, and the simple thing to do is to make sure that you have one license for every title for every user. In the end, I don't forsee MS' new scheme impacting my requirements for license management. What it WILL impact is my deployment time. If I have to install an OS from scratch, install all of its applications, and register the OS (which, btw I NEVER do with personal software for privacy reasons), all of a sudden my per machine deployment time has quadrupled at least. Currently, I do a single fresh build from scratch, make and image of that and put that image on all my machines. Then I just have to insure that I have at least one license for each application for evey workstation I deploy in this manner. No problem.

Certainly, MS has the right to protect their financial investment in the software they publish. I will not ever hold against them any tactic they choose (within the law, of course) in protecting their intellectual property. However, if they move forward with this proposal, I will move to another platform when Win2k and Win9x become unserviceable.

by shanghai sam

While I'm sure Ms will have to take in mind that many Admin's use installation points to rapidly deploy system software and OS upgrades, they will still have this a option with some kind of hack.
Problem is a lock only keeps a honest person honest, and I myself work currently with a lagre corp. We already are moving away from Proprietary consumption , while we do use MS products on Select agreements, I personally and many others within our ITS group currently plan for long term migration awayfrom "Being Stuck" in a jam and unable to move about freely.
This could be a very potential problem for MS as of current we utilized Select agreements, simple because of the freedom it has produced in the past, our company alone will not sway on this for reason of being deadlocked into dealing with one company and the lack of versitility it presents.

by shanghai sam

Yes, I have read about this scehme. I will definitely not purchase any system that requires this kind of trouble to install and update.

I personally think Microsoft are being really arrogant in their approach to this problem, and have not considered all their alternatives. I live in South Africa, which is part of the Third World. Over here, Microsoft Office costs in the reagion of 2000 Rand (the Rand is our local currency). Windows 98SE/ME costs about R900.00 a copy for DSP versions. The average salary/wage in my country is about R1600 a month, and Microsoft wonders why piracy is such a problem?

If they reduced the price of Windows to $20 per copy, they wouldn't have a problem as piracy would just not be worth the hassle! They wouldthen have lower margins, agreed, but this would be made up for by increased volumes.

In my opinion, Microsoft's pricing and anti-piracy policies discriminate against the third world and are going to lead to loss of market share as people find alternatives or just crack their software anyway. I think their marketing guys would benefit from a couple of years working in our conditions over here.

by shanghai sam

I will most likely not get Windows XP at all, and either just stick with Windows 2000 or Windows 98. Im thinking about just saying goodbye to Microsoft period and just start using Linux as my main OS. From a buisness point of view I can see they dont want to have pirating all over, but Windows has become expensive if a single person say owns several computers himself. Linux is much better in that its FREE. I see Microsoft losing money on this choice.

by shanghai sam

Thee are two main viewpoints which must be addressed, each with a very specific outlook. The first viewpoint is the anti-piracy solution. Any method which will prevent the illegal distribution of software should be considered as a viable solution first, and as an inconvience to the legal user as secondary. These are points which must be balanced with an expectation of success while maintaining a profit. M$ appears to have decided that the profitability of this scheme outways the increased costfor technical support and quite possibibly lowered sales. These are eaisly overcome by increasing the per-unit cost of the shrinkwrap.
The second view point should be from the support and end user side. The end user, including the home user, will generally be contacting a support staff. IT deployment and maintainence are part of this support staff and users. Both end users and support personal want systems to perform their intended purchased functions, not awaiting M$ to approve the repair or hardware upgrades. They want any downtimes corrected and accomplished quickly, efficiently, and at the lowest cost. Upper management may willingly fall for the sales pitch once. Its' the nature of executives to ignore problems M$ software generates.After seeing the total cost of ownership rise significantly, they will not be so apt the blindly follow again.
The bottom line: Mr. Bill wants more artwork, judges, and politicians. We will pay for them with lost productivity, wasted IT funds, higher software costs, and an higher user disatisfaction. (Sell MS, buy Bayer?)

by shanghai sam

I will never purchase a product with this type of "activation" scheme, either for my home, my consulting business, or any of my clients. Never! With that said, I wish Microsoft the best of luck in their new scheme. Their desire to thwart the wiley software pirates is laughable at best. The overseas organizations that can copy holograms, etc. will figure a way around this. The only "pirates" stopped will be the 'copy for a friend' people, and I honestly don't think those represent "lost" sales. Those people just would live without the software or buy a competitor's product. People who have long memories remember dongles, key disks, and other crazy impediments to software usage. Back then, we just didn't buy products with those limits, I propose that the market will do it again. Microsoft, thanks. Your product activation will do more to encourage other vendors than anything you've ever done in the past.

by yanli64

Of course, Microsoft had move a wrong step that doesn't trusted the customers who used to bought piracy products and force us to buy original product instead, this is not a good customer service but a monopoly customer service. So as well we shall not buy Windows XP and will use Linux 2.4, consider the cost and good customer service.

by blaine

Reading just a few of the suggestions here tells me that Micro$oft is in for a big headache! Hey MS, remember the Intel/PIII's ID numbers?

So they want to keep the honest people honest. That's fine but why are they punishing millions of usersor shall I say, potential users? By my reading, MS is saying that they can't copy-protect a $500+ Office disk but they can for a $50 game (Age of Empires)? They also state that part of the problem is resellers. Let me tell you, I worked for a computer repair house and they didn't think twice about selling bogus software to customers! Why don't you go after people who are trying to make money off of your software not the end users who pay the money? On the other hand, to get rid of the cheesy license labels stuck to the outside of the case that the end user pulls off anyway?.Nah!

So Microsoft, by you forcing me to agree to your license terms do you hereby agree that if I am forced to call you for the key that you will answer on the first ring? And let me talk to a real human? And not even question my need for the key? And not ask repetitive personal questions? And not sell my info to pad Gates' wallet? And do I still get my one back-up copy of the material? And if I can'tcopy it anyway, will you include a second copy in the original box? And smile?

Personally, I think that the Office suite is over priced anyway. I like the programs but if I had to personally pay for a copy, well, I don't think that I would choose MS. If you make the software affordable and use simple copy protection I would think that most people would want to buy new and not monkey with the copy process. Yes, I will agree that there will always be someone who wants to break the encryption BUT THERE WILL ALWAYS BE THAT SOME ONE!

One last question: So, how does this affect cloning and ghosting drive images?

by blaine

One More! (Sorry!)
MS Quit re-releasing new versions every time I turn around! Quit force-feeding it to computer vendors also! I had to buy 3 laptops that had ME on them for work. What a mess. Out with the new (ME) in with the old (98SE). It would be nice to have other options! Oh yeah....how about spending my hard earned company dollars on actual R&D BEFORE you release a product rather than its harem of "service packs"?

by jalordi

This is the most rediculous, high handed thing I have ever heard of. Yes it will keep me from buying and deployig this product. What is Microsoft trying to prove?

by artbain

If I were Microsoft, I would tolerate a certain level of piracy. Having people pirate Microsoft software for home use (assuming this is the main result of piracy) almost ensures that Microsoft products will be adopted in the corporate sector. They got to keep the supply of new software coming in!

After all, how many people do you know that have illegal copies of Novell at home?

by ravencomputer

I have kept a personal log on the last 50 pc's I have had on my bench. Of those 50, only 20 were correctly licensed. The owners varied from small businesses to generic end users. Fly by night system assemblers at computer shows, shade tree technicians and everybody's best pal are all competing to be the best source for your software needs.
Corel and Lotus both offer execellent alternatives to MS Office,yet they are rejected by the vast majority of users. Why?
It's just so darned easy to click on that attached e-mail that was created with MS Word and have magical things happen without any effort. Why is it criminal or greedy for Microsoft to reap the rewards of their efforts? Why do people feel entitled to have these privileges for free?
I have a plan. At the next oppotunity to attend a computer show I will ask one of the vendors to pre-install Timeslips, Office Mate
and Novell Net Ware on his $700 special of the day. No doubt he will only offer Win98 and Office 2000. Hey, his price was right.
I'm also considering asking Subaru for a new
all wheel drive wagon. Heck I bought one 4 years ago. What do you mean I have to pay for an upgrade? Those greedy monopolistic b******s!!!!

by mitch_shrader

The activation process will offend clients and INCREASE copying. CASUAL duplications may decrease, but commercial software pirates will merely see a slight price increase. It only takes ONE 'crack' to be built, and in a few days it will be around the world. The DVD codec is a fine example. Make it a challenge, and watch the challenge become history.

by bbilland

I don't think Microsoft's too far off base o this one. It's not unusual for activation keys to be required. IE. AutoCad, Quickbooks... I do believe it will create confusion and a lot of false "Piracy Alerts" when users, who are less than diligentabout saving the documentation that shipped with their new system, grab any copy they can find and perform a re-install. But on the up-side, maybe if MS actually gets paid for every installed copy of the OS, they will reduce the price. (Maybe), AND Maybe their stock would go up and maybe my mutual funds will climb out of the gutter. (MAYBE).

by mvedwar

I think this will greatly increase the amount of rollout time when my company gets new PCs (I do dozens at the time) We'll just have to wait and see about how good WindowsXP(EXTRA PROFIT)actually works.

On most software there is an area on the box that will say "Install on Win95 or better", I have given this some thought and since I've seen the word "better" I may just go to LINUX OS altogether!

by rsmithmcse

First, the hackers will crack this in about fifteen seconds....even if it's
encoded in the kernal....as no digital system is invunerable to crack....(I
play in the registry now...and it's really easy...) and if microsoft starts
using the ASP or /.net internet apps to verify installation....the company
will prolly be siezed by the US Government for privacy violation. The only
reason nothing has happened so far is MS has never acted on all that info
they've been gathering so far.
That type of monitoring is against the US constitution and would result in a
wave backlash of unbefore seen consumer anger. The very first phone call
will bring armies of hackers hell bent on destroying microsoft by every
means possible. They'll be ruined, and it is unlikely they'll survive.

Second...if they were actually successfull in pulling it off....then windows
itself would be doomed as another "open source" browser would easilly step
in to take over. Even Bill Gates knows the only reason he is first is
because his software is easy to steal...and therefore the choice of computer
guys. Realize that the people use the software we tell them to...not the
software microsoft tells them to. If the big companies were actually in
control, then we'ld all be using OS/2.....

Third, and most important...the industry is supported by an underpaid army
of third party support staff....OEM, over 70% of the business....who will
simply not comply as this approach doesn't fit both mass and min production
techniques. Who will answer the 10's of millions of phone calls from
curious customers who are not registered? And machines must remain 100%
flexible,,,evn the big guys no longer produce "proprietary" boxes due to
incompatibility cost overruns. Whoever thought up this idea knows very
little about how the actual industry works.

by bbrooks

Lets be honest people will find a way to defeat copy protection in any form. I give it 6 months before some brite 14 year old hacker wanna be finds a way to get past the activation, the point is people have been "pirating" software since the begining and will continue untill the end of time. I'm not saying microsoft should just take it and do nothing about, but i feel the way it is done now more than serves the need for copy protection, I.E if your cought then you pay the price, (and believe meIve talked to company's who have been), anyway as an IT professional my company perform many windows X installations and I feel this will cause more problems then it is worth. True the is alot of money lost each year to software piracy but I guarantee their making more than double that in gross sales, but thats just my 2 cents.

by mike_nekouasl

Ok, lets tackle this issue at hand. Microsoft is being ripped off. As an IT professional, especially one that is attuned to MS products, I have to admit that I have run into my share of people that pirate the MS software, but by and far they are home consumers. To stop home consumers from pirating MS software is, in my openinion, stupid. Look MS makes most of its money by selling its OS(s) to PC manufacurers not to Joe Shmo. By stopping piracy in the home market they are doing themselves a disfavor. People that are not buying new PCs are simply not going to go to XP, so less developers will have to pay MS for rights to their XP logo; and the mainstream production of XP software will, at least for a while, be put off. By turning a blind eye to software piacy in the home, MS is creating more demand, a lager market if you well for their product. It's basic economics 101, if less people are willing to purchase XP do to the availability of Linux, Win2000 Pro, and ME/98SE,(which can all be attained cheaply and/or illegally), people are going to forgoe buying XP. So that leaves us with a burning question, is the activation process the right thing to do? Well in order to stop piracy, yes, but what MS should do is waite before releasing XP. They should let ME/Win2000 users crave for a change, then release XP, otherwise it'll be a while before home users and even most office users migrate over. Overall the deployment process for enetrprise wide networks is really not all that much more complicated,afterall we had to keep track of lisecenes for NT and Win2000 anyway so really its not a big issue. It's the home users that will be affected and will not want to purchase the software.

by jaiello

This natual conclusion to the elimination of competition. When Microsoft wanted to 'buy' marketshare they give their products away. Many people will take their software, use it, learn it, recommend it, and finaly get others to use it.
Now that we have few options to turn to, MS is now forcing more and more of their products into this type of scheme.
Its frankly very silly since this protection scheme will more than likely be broken about 14 seconds after its released to the public.
Does this mean that with all the extra money they will be getting from people who would have stolen their software in the past, that they might actually offer some 'free' support for their products that do not install correctly? I somehow doubt it.
See thisfor what it is, we will soon have a new saying: There are only three things for sure in life, Taxes, Death, and License Fees to MS.

by arthurp

Product Activation sounds as though it could be agreat advancement in the fight against piracy, however I can see a couple of flaws in the MS Global domination plan.

IT equipment is always breaking down .. & if your organisation operates a breakfix stock, programme, does that mean you'll have to pay for a license everytime you re-image a machine, or introduce a machine to your network ?

If I've already purchased a license for the computers that my organisation is operating, does that meanI'll have to purchase another license for any computers involved in an upgrade programme - even if I retire one for one ?

Personally I'm not a Bill Gates fan. I neither like, nor do I enjoy using MS systems; but then again I have no option ... it's become the industry standard, (even IBM have migrated from O/S2 to NT4).

Will the MS XP system still operate DOS functions, & be backwards compatible, or will MS display their normal competency & release a package that's full of bugs, then say"Hey at least we have the fixes".

I'm sorry, but any major announcements do not fill me with glee anymore, it's more like anticipation as to what's going to fail, how much flack the IT team are going to take from their customers, & how many extrahours will they need to work in order to resolve the problem ?

Who pays for the bugs ?

whilst MS will loose a little revenue, it's the IT budget that will endup funding the bug fix, (without any hope of compensation from MS).

I for one recommend leaving MS XP on the shelf a little longer, until they've resolved most of the initial bugs.

Arthur

by kolsson

PC's (particularly the clones) at my office and at my clients' sites are subject to frequent upgrades and swapping of add-in cards. I fear that "product activation" will require a "note from Mommy" (Microsoft) to allow us to continue using our computers after a motherboard, or even a peripheral, is added/removed/swapped. I am a control systems integrator and no one in my circle owns an IBM-brand PC with the box welded shut. If implemented, this scheme will be a serious impediment.
My pharmaceutical and industrial customers exist FAR from the cutting edge of IT. At least one has not yet upgraded past Office 95 and most run Windows NT 4.0 SP4 or Windows 95. Windows 2000 remains several years in the future for these companies. Unless XP is bulletproof, rocket-fast, more reliable than the Pope, faster to install than a toaster and requires zero maintenance, it'll be looked at with nothing more than amusement. If downtime (often at thousands of dollars per hour) is increased by the need to call Microsoft for permission to replace a failed computer, you can be sure Linux will be seriously evaluated.
I'm ag'in it.

by glenndal

I would just like to ask the PC world... how long do you think it will be before Microsoft start requiring hardware (dongle) locks for their software products. Now I ask, what different is the company's maintenance of a hardware profile database asa means for piracy protection, from an actual harware lock? In terms of protection they are close to the same, but in terms of privacy the database is a complete invasion. Some may argue that hardware protection can be cracked, but so too will be Windows XP as soon as a few hackers get their hands on it. In my view, Microsoft's Product Activation Scheme will waste a lot of time and cause frustration for their honest customers. It will not increase sales because more than just illegal users will be boycotting the platform. The word Microsoft is beginning to sound synonymous with the term Bully.

by melekali

Let's just say that my first ereaction internally when I heard this was, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

Let me explain. Personally, I have no need for an os that will regulate my activites on my pc to such an extent. If Microsoft doesn't trust me to do the right thing and not take what's not mine, they need to get out of the business.

As a Network Administrator, let me see. Why is a business going to spend all that money to make an administrator's job so much more difficult. I certainly am not going to suggest to my company that we spend all that money so that I can contact Microsoft to get a code in order to use the software I have legally purchased, This is a ludicrous idea whose time has come to be quashed.

What can Mac do for me, as well as my network?

by mercersw

I just had the worst thought! I had never looked at Linux before because I was quite happy with MS products until now. I decided continuing down the MS path is no longer an option now so I figured it's time to investigate Linux,0S/2 and whatever else is out there. Linux seems to be the rave and obvious new choice. WHAT IF! Microsoft already thought of this and is planning to buy Linux! After everybody made the switch then they would be right back under the Microsoft thumb with nowhere to run! This copy protection scheme could just be a diabolical plot to fulfil the master MS plan for total dominance. RedHat Please don't forsake us! You got to admit that it would be extremely clever and permanently kill the hopes of many who thought they could be free and submit to defeat.

by mercersw

We don?t need this kind of hassle. Many people will find that they have purchased a product that they cannot use. I am working in Saudi and 800 #s don?t work here. Firewalls prevent many Internet functions from working. I will never buy another Caere product as they use this protection scheme and this is what I got. ?Thank you for contacting Caere Technical Support. We are currently experiencing difficulties with the registration website and are working to resolve them as quickly as possible. In the meantime, there are a couple of ways that you can register the product. You can reach our Registration department at 800-488-1133. Also, you can reply to this message and include the serial number and key number. If we have this information we can issue you a registration number.? I finally got the Reg#, my HDD crashed and when I rebuilt my machine the product no longer worked. I hope MS?s greed put?s them out of business. I guess if nobody used their products then they wouldn?t have to worry about piracy anymore. Problem solved! Yes, not everyone is honest and will pay for a product but MS?s fortune to date has proved that there are enough people who will pay if you give them a chance.

by rastard

Wahoo people.. lets think about this.. Microsoft is the only corporation in America who can release a defective product and make us all pay through the nose for it. This new product will never grace my network anytime in the near future. Their cost per product is prohibitive, and their SP's plain suck. No where, in any industry but software can you institute a FIX which causes more and often more destructive problems, and get away with it. Microsoft has to make someone pay for all its screw ups, we the consumer are its target.. but since XP will never grace my network as long as I'm still here.. I'm one less customer to pay for their arrogance.. W2K was too expensive .. and this XP beta is not impressive at all.. and they want me to call into their q and .. wait .. not likely ..

by sonia236

Let's say I don't have Internet access, I'm not a computer guru, I don't have a modem and I don't speak English. Then what should I do?
My scenarios of XP is:
I get a copy of XP from Fry's, college store, as a present, or just say a friend (piracy huh? ;) ). Doesn't really matter where I got it. I install it and hate it for always mentioning me about registration. By scenarios described above I have no way of registering it... What should I do?
Next one:
I know one guy he is a total hardware guru and addicted game player, he upgrades his system at least every two weeks with new hard drive, video card, modem, sound card, etc.
What he is supposed to do? Call Microsoft every couple week with apologises about it and beg them to allow intall the system one more time? And what if after certain number of times they just refuse to give an activation key to him? For the software he paid few hundred dollars? And he will have to buy it again? He just told me once: "Then XP comes out, I'llnever buy it. I like Win2K and will keep using it."

Do you still want to get it?

If yes - think about privacy of "Please call us during regular office hours."

Regards,
Unixguru

by carolw

We hardly ever upgrade the operating system on a workstation. We get the latest and greatest when we buy a replacement for the PC. Since we are a Novell network we don't use the MS software on our corporate server.