Ed Bott's Microsoft Challenge--3/8/01
This is page 2 of the discussion. Read the opening post
Windows Forum
This is page 2 of the discussion. Read the opening post
by palmeroy
I have wondered for a long time why Microsoft has not put code into the server Operating systems which checks that the key codes for the workstation software is unique within the domain. Passing the key code could be part of the domain sign on. If the workstation was using a non- MS system then the key would not matter. Likewise MS exchange and SQL could check for Office and Works (Yes I have clients that use Works!)
Intuit have a scheme for Quickbooks that requires the user to apply for a key at registration or the product will only work 25 times. It also checks that the 5 workstations that can share a single copy of the accounts database all have unique keys.
Yes there would be ways around this, but it slow down the more blattant re-installing of software on multiple workstations.
Andrew Ballantine.
by jlomax
by kdc_net
by patopp
I've seen softwares that use a license diskette which must be used to complete an installation. If the software is then installed at a new location, it 'asks' for the license diskette. If you use a diskette that was copied from the original license diskette from before the original installation, it will inform you that it is not a valid license disk. Even if you provide the original license diskette, it sees that the software has been installed elsewhere and will not permit a second installation. It does, however allow you to uninstall from the original location and re-install to the new location. Probably creates some hidden installation log.
The neat part is...not even a copy of the original diskette before the first installation will allow a new installation. I'm not sure how this is accomplished, I suspect it is a hidden file in a sector marked bad, so as to avoid getting copied to the new diskette.
Regardless of how the license disk works, it is sufficiently difficult enough to pirate that it would prevent the TYPICAL 'home user' from sharing it with his brother-in-law or any other friend that would ask. This would prevent a lot of piracy in the home market for Microsoft. Of course replacements of lost or damaged license disks would have to be gotten directly from Microsft.
by testas
The answer is simple, and it is the same for the music industry.
MAKE THE PRICE MORE REASONABLE
The general public would rather have legal copies of their software, period. It is the horrendous price of Office in contrast to the alternativesthat makes them "throw caution to the wind". The logic people often use is, "If I can't afford it, why would I worry about pirating it? I wouldn't be able to get it any other way . . ."
Im sure all of you know about the alternatives, (Linux & Star Office) albeit free & quite a hassle for most people, the fact is; Microsoft isn't the only one out there anymore.
Even with all the piracy of microsoft products, they still manage to get by . . .
Plus, the fact that so many home users have casually pirated their software is a large part of the reason why they have been so prolific in the market. They wouldn't be anywhere as popular if they had used product activation from the begining. People would have thought, "Yeah right! Ill go buy a mac now!"
I feel that people are definately going to be spurned by this and it might eventually lead to loss of much market share.
My 2 cents,
Stefan
by mikel~t
For those of you without an internet connection...good luck...And what about the resellers? Every time they build a new PC are they going to be required to connect to Microsoft before they put the machine onto the floor? If they answer is no, thenOEM resellers will have some sort of "cheat" that allows for them to authenticate the machine before it is sold....I don't see this being kept secret for very long....
I don't like the idea of authenticating my software by connecting to big brother. I believe Intel faced some issues with similar "tracking" motives.
I say follow the example of the game vendors. Their CDs aren't totally crack proof, but I know my friends have started complaining a lot lately about how hard it is to copy, I mean, backup games.
I have a strange solution...I don't know if this is even possible, but maybe if they created a file that had the security permission of "NO ACCESS" for all users except some ficticious username and password no one would ever be able to discover on the CDROM; whenever someone tried to copy the disk, that file wouldn't be copied across onto the new CD image. When the installer is run, it would check for the "Secret No Access" file on the CD, and if it isn't present, no installation will occur.
Just a thought...
I am curious about how effective this new authentication system will be. I'm all for companies making money, but I think Microsoft is really going to burn a lot of bridges with this little adventure.
by neilmarj
Open Source it.
Or better let all convert to Star Office!
by midlagdgy
by bluenoser
by mashmon
by leonard_aj
by mr russ
I'd reposition my company so that people wouldn't want to steal from me. Could you imagine stealing from Mother Teresa? Or Ghandi?
Simply put, many of us view Microsoft as overly compensated bullies who are doing their darndest to screw competition and users, while returning maximum profit to shareholders, all while looking very humble.
Solution:
1) I'd give credit to all the people and companies that Microsoft stole from to get the products they are marketing today.
2) I'd stop offering shareholder dividends, and put all profits into charitable causes.
3) I'd apologize for the past behaviors of Microsoft, wherein the company stole technology, etc, and be certain they don't happen again.
4) I'd use open source programming/licensing to reduce the bug problem so famous with any new product Microsoft releases.
5) I'd keep up the good technical support, and advertise it.
Oh, and of course, count me out to even consider upgrading my company if this policy is adopted. I frequently re-roll machines out and change hardware on them to accomodate new user requests and operating system bloat. The statement about 'significant' changes requiring new activiation does not make me smile. NT admin is a nightmare to begin with, I don't need my professional life further complicated.
by tdemers
by mrtmccc
by maram
In the Eastern Countries Microsoft will never get the piracy problem under control. But for the western civilization or more precisely the home users from these countries there is a pretty obvious solution: Microsoft has to reassess the pricing model for their products. No software company can expect from home users to spend more money on software licenses then on the computer hardware. Within the 2000-product range you pay around 700 USD to get a useful office suite an another 100 USD to receive a more or less stable operating system. But think about quality: The products are full of bugs when they arrive on the market. Endusers are something like beta-testers for Microsoft. So Microsoft should reward that i.e. by changing prices for private users.
I suggest the following model (prices have to be the same for US, Canada, Europe etc.):
- Price for Office suite (Premium version) should be around 80 - 100 USD.
- Price for Operating System should be around 50 - 80 USD.
- Optionally there should be something like "update protection". The fee for private users should be around 20 USD per product and then they receive the next 2 versions for free.
Calculating with the suggested prices Microsoft could at least be proud on havingaround 70% of all private users fully licensed. Compared to today, I guess there's about 20% of all private users who have licensed their Microsoft products.
by w00t
If you closely read the EULA some on software, you'll find that the company can revoke the EULA at any time. Basically you only rent the software.
Currently I am a college student with an Academic version of Office 2000. I rebuilt my system quite a few times over the past year. Sure it's a pain to call MS and register, but HEY THAT'S LIFE!!!
I like MS old way of doing business. If you burn the software fine. But in order to get any updates for the software you must register it.
by web_gadget
by web_gadget
I think it is clear from the responses of TechRepublic members that Microsoft needs to lower the cost of its products to slow piracy of its products. People would be willing to pay a lower cost for software.
The Catch:
If Microsoft quite making total upgrades and worked on making their current products better, they wont make money. When you think about it, how much more can they put into MS Office and make money. It does so much now, more than half of the users dont use a fraction of what it can do. Why would the average home user be willing to shell out more money for an upgrade they wont use. Microsoft needs these "new products" to make money. They use their Certifications to move these products along. They outdate the current test and create new exams to make people learn the new products, thus moving the market forward.
The End:
The consumer is catching on. Linux is around the corner and Microsoft will in the end throw one last punch and people will be fed up.So long Microsoft, I wish I could say it has been a pleasure. NOT!
by mikespeakman
by ebott
by tbig
According to this excerpt from Microsoft Product Activation Q&A, if an ex IT employee copied the CD for bulk licenced Windows XP and installed it at home, your entire network of machines would cease to run the product. How's that for an Achilles? heel?
----
Q: How will Microsoft Product Activation help thwart piracy?
A: Product Activation will help reduce casual copying by ensuring that the copy of the software product being installed is legal and has been installed on a PC in compliance with the end user licensing agreement. Installations beyond those allowed in the license agreement will fail to activate. ******Software that is already activated on another computer will also fail to activate. This prevents unlicensed and illegal copies of Microsoft products from being used.
by jamesdev
by shanghai sam
An interesting conundrum to be sure. Piracy is alive in force today mainly because of the price of software, and not just software from MS. Most anti-piracy schemes will be broken fairly rapidly due to demand. Lowering the price is an option. However, even at $10.00 for upgrade and $20.00 for retail, some piracy will still exist. Piracy will live on regardless, which is more a sad statement about our social construct than anything else.
However, the question is how to best protect the product without inconveniencing the customer. Most are too fanciful or expensive to impliment. However, a long term strategy could be defined to make it happen. For instance, the major software companies, MS included, help define a new standard for laser enabled storage. CD Writers that have a certain range that the laser can travel during a read process, with a smaller range for write operations. Then, encode a product ID # on the cd as is done now, but place it only in the write denied area of the CD. If this was either a firmware or physical limit on the drive, then CDR and CDrW drives on the market would then be unable to write the product keycode on an illegal "burned" cd. A true physical limit on the CD writer would be best, as firmware 'hacks' would be difficult but not impossible.
Now, since I use a subscription license from MS, this will mean I will not be able to burn my own copies. Fine. MS saves a bundle by using this, they must then restructure the subscription licensing - to wit - when they send me the cd's, I have a # to call to request additional copies of specific cd's, in the # I feel I need them. MS and I both keep track of how many cd's of OS/app/etc I have, and I am responsible for each of them should I ever be audited. The key to this would be MS would have to make a very firm commitment to supplying the cd's in a timely manner. Feedback as always is welcome.
Skkzarg_death
by pwcrockett
What, exactly, is the problem that needs to be solved here? Is Microsoft not making enough profit? Is Bill Gates not rich enough? Is it necessary to address moral indignation over some people paying less for MS products than other people?
Seriously, the status quo seems to be working for Microsoft. The current pricing structure was worked out in the presence of piracy and presumably incorporates (at least implicitly) the cost of piracy. Is Microsoft likely to reduce prices to account for the less piracy (and inconvenience to customers)? Red Hat seems to be making money without worrying about privacy (though clearly not on the same scale that Microsoft is making money). So, I repeat, what precise problem are we trying to solve? Note that, if Microsoft were able to completely stop the use of unauthorized copies of its products, this would not represent converting 100% of unauthorized copies into sales -- many users would migrate to Solaris or Linux and StarOffice or other OS's and applications (because of financial or philosophical considerations), corporations would begin to discover that they would have to accept documents and spreadsheets in formats other than MS and would begin to split their software budgets between Microsoft and other vendors, many users would step off Microsoft's upgrade gravy train and decide that their current versions of Windows and MS applications are quite adequate.
All this said, however, I am sure that Microsoft has an army of analysts in their marketing department who have considered these and other factors as dispassionately as the Ford Pinto design team, and have concluded that they'll make more money than they lose with this new policy. It's not like they have to worryabout losing customer good will or loyalty.
by butch-12
by jstuber
Microsoft has already solved this problem. Remember all those sweetheart deals made with PC manufacturers to require the OS sold with each PC. Ever try and get a substantial discount on a new PC because you already own software to load onto it? Sure, you might get 50 bucks knocked off the price. then why can't I buy an OS for 50 bucks? Suites are the same way except that new purchases are far more skewed against retail purchase.
Ultimately, I say buy WordPerfect. Let's restore the superior product to its rightful slot as No. 1, and no more of this artificial seats in use based on PC sales versus consumer choice!
by rspt
Boy, this is nothing but annoying. MicroSoft shouldn't be at all surprised when XP is suddenly known as bXP (Bad Experience).
I am a techie. I love to tinker. I change my PC in drastic ways on a regular basis. We still haven't heard a definition of what is a "major" change. Activation WILL NOT work for me at home.
My solution, in a word : XWindows.
by erlu
by glenn
by dan m
======================================
Solution #2:
Issue a HARDWARE KEY for each license.
======================================
Plug it into your parallel, serial or USB port and go! This is the best/easiest protection I have seen to date.
1. Easily moved from one PC to another without uninstalling and reinstalling (this should be perfectly legal because the software is only useable on 1 PC at a time). People are not very likely to share the key for very long... it would be too frustrating, constantly having to swap it back and forth!
2. Users could easily take their key home from work for use at both places. Microsoft used to allow this. I believe they stopped when they realized that the spouse could use it at home while theother used it at work. This would not happen with a single hardware key.
3. You can rebuild and/or reconfigure your PC to your heart's content and reinstall the software as many times as you like.
4. If you lose the key... too bad. If you break the key... you can send the broken one back for a replacement.
5. Much more difficult to reproduce (pirate) the hardware key (of course, it can be done), it would definately stop casual copying.
by amagoon
by dstowers
Given that the essential difference between big businesses and home users is buying power, I would think that making it less expensive would cover most of the infringing types. Currently, a home user practically gets raped if they want to go down to Office Depot or somewhere and buy the retail Win9x, win2k, or O2k packages. Since these are mostly hobbyists this seems backward when business and education clients can get it for a 5th of the price. Lowering the price would encourage most users to buy the software. I would have bought Win2k to replace win98 on my machine at home if it had been reasonably priced.
David Stowers
by bgandersson
Take up the competion with the piratz by lowering the price on the products.
When the piratz profits shrinks maybe they will find another market.
by stevadson
If I were running the Windows or Office business at Microsoft, I would:
1) Admit that the BSA's "$12 billion lost annually due to piracy" is a bogus, inflated number, as numerous analysts have shown. (That is, if we could magically, at no cost to anyone, produce and use a 100% infallible anti-piracy solution, software industry revenues would not increase by anything close to $12 billion.)
2) Tell everyone how happy I am with Microsoft's before-tax profit of over 63% in calendar 2000, especially when I could be working at successful companies where the profit is much lower. (For example, McDonalds at 21%, Philip Morris at 17%, AT&T at 16%, GE at 14%, Exxon-Mobil at 10%, Disney at 9%, Wal-Mart at 5%, GM at 3.8% annual before-tax profits.)
3) Announce that we will be expending our effort making our products easier to buy and use, rather than saddling our customers with the extra work, frustration, and expense of so-called "anti-piracy" measures. (Thereby taking a cue from the retail industry. There, promotions like sidewalk sales result in a higher incidence of pilferage, but even higher sales and profits. On the other hand, draconian anti-pilferage measures, like the guy at the exit who checks your receipt, decrease pilferage at the expense of lost sales and profits.)
4) Announce that we will step up our effort to find and prosecute, to the fullest extent of the law, those who bootleg or counterfeit large numbers of software licenses and distributions in order tosell them. (Rather than concentrating on the home market, where actual losses are in the nickel-and-dime category, since the choice for most home users is "pirate or do without" not "pirate or purchase.")
Here's a question for you, Ed: How much do you think this has to do with UCITA?
by brike1
Answer 1: Make the software free.
Answer 2: Change Operating Systems
Answer 3: Adware Windows and Office
Answer 4: Sue Microsoft
Answer 5: Change Operating Systems
Answer 6: Change Operating Systems
Answer 7: Change Operating Systems.
by bwhitehead
by dpetersen
I noticed that many people complained about the price. Microsoft, if they want to reduce piracy, needs to REDUCE THEIR PRICES TO THE LEVEL THAT PEOPLE ARE WILLING TO PAY!
I often use the video tape industry as an example.
When video tapes first came out, they were about $90 a tape. The reasoning, as it was explained to me by a video rental store owner, was as follows: Hollywood knew that the video stores would use the tapes to make a lot of money, so they would charge a bunch up front to take advantage of it. But then VCRs came down in price and more people were buying them and building up their video libraries. Some people were doing this by renting tapes and taping them off. In other words, piracy.
Then some sales and marketinggenius decided to try selling the tapes at a price that people were willing to pay: $15-$20. The reasoning is that more people would buy the cheaper tapes, there would be less piracy, and the studios would make more profit on the quantity of tapessold than a few high-priced tapes. What normal user would stomach paying $90 for a video tape?
Microsoft, instead of charging $500 for Office, should charge $100-$200. Their competition, Corel and Lotus, only charge that much. StarOffice is free, and it is supposed to read Excel and Word. People would be more willing to pay $100-$200 for Office. By the way, the full-blown professional version of Office (not an upgrade!) is academically priced at $200 at college bookstores.
Visual Studioprofessional edition sells, I think, for upwards of $1000 MSRP. The academic price is about $260. A lot of people would be willing to pay $260 for Visual Studio. As long as it is in the high hundreds, it is out of the reach of most people, not withstanding what they are willing to pay, so many people would probably get a pirated copy.
by dpetersen
Why isn't Intel, AMD, IBM, Dell, Gateway, HP, Compaq, et al complaining about this 'activation key' scheme? I would think that people would be be slower to upgrade and slower to buy a new computer if they are going to be hassled into calling Microsoft for an activation code.
The one thing I hate about buying a new computer from the PC companies listed above is that I HAVE to buy some version of Microsoft Office or Works (I believe IBM offers Lotus Smartsuite) with the PC. Why should I pay AGAIN for something I already own? SO I buy a system from some other place and whoops! I gotta get an activation code.
Maybe I and others will just make do a little longer.
That will result in lower sales for any of the companies listed above.
Youthink they would complain...
by adccomputers
by ebott
by ankit0
you can have a VB program written in such a way that whenever you run that program it will create one file and one random number so when you r burning any of the microsoft software CD then place that file which was created during the running of theVB Program and then whenever you install the program from the CD it will ask for the random no. which was created during the running of that VB program along with that file
so your software becomes secure
if you need that program i can give you the brief idea of that program
by jaiello
MS needs to do several things to reduce the need for 'product activation'.
First let us look to history - everytime this has been attempted in the past, it has failed. This time will be no different.
MS has to lower prices to the point where people would see the 'value' of the product they are purchasing.
They need to slow down the constant upgrade cycle we are on - why do we need yet another version of Office that already does more 'features' than most users will use. It seems to me that upgrades come out reguardless of real need on the part of users.
Offer two versions of the product, one version that is copyable like today with, zero support and another activated version that comes with a # of support calls. If done properly, mostusers would flock to the activated version because they would finally be able to get some support for MS products without using the credit card everytime.
Punishing users who upgrade is not the answer. Punishing corporate users by removing their ability to 'ghost' installations is -really- going to hurt their sales.
Other products that our company use have other methods of protection that are quiteeffective and do not harm the legitimate user much.
CD Copying software such as disklock are effective for products like SimCity 3000 and hardware locks are effective for most CAD type applications. Neither hurt the legitimate user. Imagine SimCity demanding an authorization code when you finally realize it is time to upgrade the video card to what's recommended on the SimCity box! ;-)
Lowering their prices might also deter illegal copies as well. Linux isn't plagued by blatant piracy, but then again I'm not aware of too many multi-billion dollar Linux firms either.
My 2 cents worth anyway, lying awake wondering about life after Norton Ghost....
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