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by ontheropes

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by techexec2

The FDA has been losing credibility with me in recent years. After "extensive" testing, it has approved just too many exotic new drugs that have hurt too many people. This is another iteration of that.

I'd like to see what nurse Tigger thinks about this.

P.S. I wonder if this might be related to "homeland security". Is this some kind of proactive preventive defense against bacterial contamination of food by terrorists? Not paranoid. Just thinking out loud...

P.P.S. Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you. :-)

edit: grammar

by Member 25348569

No. Listeria is one of those annoying bugs that continues to multiply even in the fridge. It's really quite widespread and, if you succumb to an infection, pretty nasty. In pregnant women it often results in a miscarriage. Mortality is upto 20% as it attacks the vulnerable.

It's killed by cooking but that doesn't help you if you're eating pate or soft blue cheese which usually have lots. In the UK, pregnant women and the old are warned not to eat either.

The phage spray is an interesting ideea. I've found some European biotech pushing for something similar although initially for treatment of the manufacturing equipment. Only a matter of time, though. You'd have to mix it in with the milk when you make cheese, I guess.

Phages are particularly specific, attaching to a particular bacterium coat structure so they shouldn't mutate any more than the shed-loads of phages we've already got everywhere.

by Member 25348569

but I'm interested so I'll see what i can dig up tomorrow or Sunday - it's the weekend so it will almost certainly rain!

:D

by tig2

I read the article twice. One thing that jumped out at me was that the writer seems to have an agenda as well. I am not saying that he is wrong, just that it seemed to be fraught with alarmism.

My experience of the FDA is that they tend to be a show stopper when it comes to testing and approving new treatments for life threatening disease. It seems like no matter how much work is done on the front end, they have endless checks and balances to get a product to market. When a Vioxx gets through and causes problems, it is always the FDAs fault- even though it is provable that many of those issues are self inflicted.

I have never heard of a phage mutating in the manner described. That is out of my direct knowledge so I really need to do some research and will eagerly look forward to Neil's research. I do know this- e. coli kills people. To me, this should result in a hard look at food processing in general and protien foods in particular. Having heard this morning that bagged spinich was being recalled due to e.coli, I have the strong sense that we need to be looking at points of manufacture first.

The thing that caught my attention was the belief on the part of the writer that purchasing only free range, grown in America products was some kind of answer. I have to question that as free range has its problems as well.

I guess it all comes back to needing to do some study around this before I can post an intellegent response. We have to go up north tomorrow so it will be tomorrow afternoon/evening at the earliest that I can provide a result. I hope that Neil has additional information before then.

This is interesting. I am interested in seeing what the science yields.

by gadgetgirl

- the e-Coli, I mean.

That is what started all the tummy trouble for me. Caught it on a caravan site, 20 years ago last month. Dropped 21 lbs weight in 10 days, had to be ambulanced home, lived on black coffee and dry toast for a month and it left me with IBS. (reason I've been off sick 3 days this week)

Seen Listeria at work too - extremely unpleasant, especially in kids. Leaves them open to other infections too, as it's so draining on their little systems.

Question for Neil - need your opinion on the likes of Activia/Actimel - I've read up on some of these; some sites are now promoting daily use in the treatment of IBS. Willing to try anything, but would like your opinion first? Most of the "technical" side of how they work is waaaaaaaaaay beyond me (especially after a week long IBS spasm....pain frazzles the brain.....)

Incidentally - it is specifically PROCESSED FOOD that I cannot tolerate. From peas to cheese, ready meals and more - if it has been processed, I can't digest it. So I agree with Tig - look at the point of manufacture. What the hell are they doing with the stuff??

Ok, I'm stepping down from the soapbox now. Sorry, but this one was a personalised soapbox, as I think you realise....

GG

by Member 25348569

This is my own personal feelings with (relatively) little science involved.

In a normal healthy adult, I'd say that you're sitting there with a nice balance of whatever bugs you should have - those bloody twee "friendly bacteria" - and that this stuff is just an expensive yoghurty drink. For our American chums, the 'o' in yoghurt rhymes with 'dog' and NOT the 'o' in D'Oh!

I don't have anything like IBS - babe, you have my sincerest sympathy - so the only time I take a week's worth of strawberry Actimel is any time I've taken a course of antibiotics as they upset the gut flora and I like to give myself a helping hand. Does it work? I've no idea but it's a few quid and tastes nice and I certainly feel no worse.

What I would suggest is that you keep a comprehensive "IBS Diary". Start taking Actimel or an equivalent and record what you eat and try to tie it in with flare-ups and how you're feeling tummy-wise on a scale of one to ten on a daily basis. (If you're not keeping a diary already, that is). If after a few months, subjectively, you feel it's a waste of time then stop but [b]continue the diary[/b] and you'll get an objective assessment. If you feel that it [b]is[/b] doing you good, carry on as subjective - how [b]you[/b] feel - is what it's all about!

Then write a scientific paper. I'll co-author. :D

Neil :x

Hmmm, looks like I've some more bug research to do. Phages for Busted and now L. casei for you.

p.s The first Google hit that I read wasn't encouraging but I have to include it for the particular strain of L. casei that they tested!

http://tinyurl.com/jvl7p

by kiltie

after only the first few paragraphs.

Liberally sprinkled with "loaded" keywords and phrases, I though that this guy certainly has an Agenda, this is not going to be any kind of analytical report.

I thought to myself, I bet I'll see phrases soon like "Research shows", "Doctors say", "evidence suggests" with no justification supplied, you know the kind of thing, typical of tabloid news.

Sure enough, reading further....... yep

A pity it was like that, as the subject is very serious and merits a more impartial discourse. People like that tend to destroy any credibilty they have.
Sure they are making a point, but their points will only appeal to the converted anyway.

*sigh*

by tig2

As your free range friends can tell you, there was a time that so-called free range, American grown products often weren't. This happened because some shmoe saw that there was a potential for profit in organics and used an under-handed trick of mis-labling.

The resulting problem is that you have to be very aware of your sources now if you wish to purchase and consume those products. There is a lack of ethics in everything and unfortunately, it is often difficult to know at a glance if you are dealing with a reputable source.

What really stinks is that there ARE good producers out there who are scarred by the inappropriate actions of someone else. They shouldn't be put in that position but they are.

I am looking now for some citations for you and will post what I am able to find. But I will bet that your friends can also tell you a few stories- it is quite likely that they have been impacted.

I know that new checks and balances have been introduced with regards to packaging and labling in an effort to insure that free range and American grown food products are appropriately labeled as such and made more available.

Me personally? When I lived in CA and WA, I was able to buy my produce from a local produce stand. I haven't found anything similar here. The produce I was able to purchase from a stand was often fresh that day and superior to anything I could have purchased from the grocer. I contend that the greatest problems have been caused by the unscrupulous.

by tony hopkinson

The UK used to be awful though.

One of the worse thing's I've ever seen was an MP called John Selwyn Gummer (stupid name for a stupid person) feeding his kids a burger and saying you don't need to worry about this BSE stuff. I hope for his kid's sake he never has cause to regret it.

Food and drugs are very lucrative industries....

by Member 25348569

This has been a fascinating little look around! It would seem that phage medicine was being investigated decades before the age of Penicillin, the discovery of which knocked phage research on the head.

In 1896, the British chemist E. H. Hankin reported that sewage-laden water straight from the Ganges could kill the cholera pathogen. In 1915, a British bacteriologist Fred Twort described an "ultramicroscopic virus" that killed bacteria in solution but the French biologist F?lix d?Herelle coined the term bacteriophage in 1916 after isolating a microbe from the faeces of patients with dysentery and growing it in the bacterium that causes the disease. D?Herelle then went on to use the phages to treat a 12 year old boy with severe dysentery. D'Herelle drank 100 times the intended dose to check its safety!

Biggest researchers were the Soviet military who carrried on phage research right up to and beyond the breakup of the soviet Union. The basis for the research being that phages are cheap and antibiotics are expensive.

Ex-soviet states still use phage medicine, I found a quite a few reference to old soviet Union phage technologies. Georgia has had "phage plasters" since 2002 which, when stuck over wounds, could kill off staphylococcus infections that were quite often untreatable by antibiotics.

The reason that it is making a comeback in the West is due to the indiscrimate agricultural use of antibiotics which has resulted in the drug resistance of so many pathogenic bacteria.

The US FDA has clamped down on the prophylactic use on animals of any antibiotic used on humans with the result that there has been a rise in the infective levels of Listeria, Salmonella and others. European farmers have been forbiddden prophylactic antibiotic use for a number of years. Given that the farmers are asking "What [b]can[/b] we use, phages seems a good alternative.

I couldn't find any papers that suggested that it was a [b]bad[/b] thing. What did come over was that phages are so specific that it'll be a wile before they can target, say, Salmonella or E. Coli which have several thousand strains. Listeria monocytogenes is particularly good to start with because there are few strains and it's a particularly nasty bug.

Neil :D

by nicknielsen

Just make sure to stay away from that genetically enhanced hops. :^0

Edit: Of course.

And don't go blaming me, NB. It's not physically contagious! ;)

by tig2

Hey GG-

Actimel may help with a chronic IBS condition. Taking an antioxidant such as Green Tea capsules may also help. If you can tolerate buttermilk, that may also help.

Neil's suggestion will also come in handy as it may point out precursor events to a bout. Share your results with your physician. Also be certain to record stress producing events and the extent of stress you feel. Consider adding a B Complex vitamin to your daily regime. B Complex will help your body to deal with the effect of stress.

Let me know how it works out. I will be interested in knowing your results.

by gadgetgirl

Thought it was best to start this at the weekend, so that if it all went to h*ll, I wouldn't have to take any more time off work.

Day 1 was ok, but I was expecting that. It's normally the 2nd try of anything that is telling. Had the last bottle 3 hours ago, and up to now I'm only suffering from a noisy stomach!

Always kept a food diary since this started; also helps if I have to go back to the scratch (exclusion) diet, which happens once in around every three years.

My GP is an idiot (well, the latest one is) so I'm going to move GP's. According to this one I saw first last week, there is no such thing as IBS. Walked out, went to see my usual guy, who upped the meds. Not putting up with that again, so I'm changing.

Tried B complex, but have trouble with what they use for a coating on those tablets. Need to try and find some enterically (sp?) coated ones, I think.

I know exactly when stress is going to hit me most of the time (re: pm) so make doubly sure to update the diary. It's relatively easy: I don't snack, I never have. Don't have a sweet tooth, so don't have a problem avoiding all the sweets at work (now, if it was Cornish Pasties, I'd be in REAL trouble....! ;) )

I'll keep making notes, and keep you in the loop.

GG

by gadgetgirl

(a la Kenneth Williams!)

Well, I suppose it had to happen some time.... and IBS problem that gets my nick....ah well....better than nothing....mebbes!

Thanks for that Neil - I've been keeping all sorts of food diaries for years, especially at stressful time (new job, house moves, divorce etc) It helps me back track on what I shouldn't have eaten.

I have particular problems with combinations of foods, and also with high fibre - I'm one of the 20% of Low Fibre sufferers.

I can't eat the same thing two days running: i.e. I can't have salad on Tuesday, then again on Wednesday. I have trouble with some dairy products; the only milk I can have is full fat pure filter (just discovered I can have a small glass, once a week.....pure gold!) Eggs are once in ten days, as is red meat (which is why I need notification well in advance of meals out!) Spices are a total no-go area, and I once hospitalised myself when I accidentally ate a chilli coated prawn ...... dehydrated within 20 minutes.....

So - as you can see - I'll try anything to help this. Close friends/relations understand that I refuse invitations for this specific reason, but to the rest of the world, I'm an unsociable person, which couldn't be further from the truth.

Don't let anyone tell you this isn't genetic in some way - I was first, but Pa followed, then daughter, then Ma, after her second bout of colon cancer surgery. Don't tell me there isn't a link somewhere there.

On day 2 of these dinky little bottles, but I'll continue in reply to Tigs post (if I don't, she'll ask for suggestions to do something nasty to ME!!) ;) :D

GG

by gadgetgirl

grief, that was quick!

Not too bothered about the chilli - like it, but went off it as soon as I realised it could kill me. Now curry is a different matter....love it. Hate not being able to have it, so I accept the hug.

The worst part is walking past an Indian take away when they're cooking....... my mouth starts watering.... and it's sheer unadulterated torture!

:p

GG

by tig2

Don't force me to start a "Bad Nick" thread. It will be much better if you help us toast JD.

It is not possible to pollute good beer. It is simply possible to make bad beer.

Pass the Guiness, please!

by nicknielsen

It's possible to consume it, too! That's the only explanation I can see for the 10 top-selling beers in the US.

As for JD, truncate him. No no no, not like that! :p Reply to his posts, but reply from the root post. It'll make it hard to follow, but it will be fun while it lasts. (After all, he hates "Max Level", doesn't he?)

I'll have a Bass. Should we split a Black & Tan?

Aside: Sorry JD, but I have a very well-developed survival instinct.

by tig2

Hmmm. Truncate JD. This is a thought worth exploit... um... exploring.

A well developed survival instinct will serve you well...

by gadgetgirl

let it get busted....

you'd have to change your name

- NEVER Busted ! :p

That musta been some fancy toe manoeuvre! - give lessons???

GG

by Member 25348569

It [b]has[/b] to be your name since the valiant (if stoopid) effort to catch a 450 pound box of boxes turned your wrist into a 3-D jigsaw puzzle!

Neil :D

p.s How's it going since they put the metal widget in? Are you able to crush empty beer cans with both hands yet?

Edited because I needed a pee.

(In 'emty'. What did you think I meant?)

by gadgetgirl

I should have moved over there when I had the chance.

All that stuff that didn't make the wagon - sheeesh. Good stuff like that is hard to find. I do get a little home grown produce from the neighbour, but mostly salads, and at the moment he has a glut of runner beans....

You have no idea how sick of runner beans I am...!

NB, what the hairoil is a pound of milk? How do you weigh it? Have I missed the memo? I thought it came in litres or pints.....

GG

Edit: cos it's NB's thread, and he does that...

by nicknielsen

The standard unit of measure for milk is pounds. It's only measured in pints, quarts or gallons when it's packaged for retail.

by gadgetgirl

I was just having a good giggle at a mental image of NB juggling cows udders to assess the weight of the milk, and you just had to go and spoil it, didn't you?

:p

GG

by gadgetgirl

not only calls you "Busted", he's also the one who [B] STOOD ME UP!!! [/B]

Thanks for that opening, Enbee....

]:)

GG

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