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Ethics? Do we need them?

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by mallardtooxx

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Recently I was reading a post from Mrafrohead and I got to thinking, what has happened to us? As an IT professional there are many things I could do that I don't, hack into restricted files, read others email, open my corporation up for attacks made either by myself or someone I know. These are all things that we all face everyday. I mean when was the last time you were doing a backup and thought I wonder how much bob in the next cubicle makes? Is it impossible to find out, no but you don'tdo you. Why? Because at sometime or another, be it at home or in school, you were taught the simple concept of ethical behavior, thats why. The IT community as a whole is faced daily with the right and wrong of the data we help to safeguard, so Iask you why are we the only ones concerned with ethics?
If big business can do whatever it wants, whenever it wants to, then why bother? I could never bring myself to do some of the things you see happening these days, but I also cannot condone it. I guess it all boils down to this in my mind please correct me if I am wrong; If you give me the keys to your house you trust me. If I steal your prized Ming Vase while you are out of town, you don't trust me anymore. I am afraid Big businessis trying to steal the keys to my house and then trying to steal my Ming Vase and I never even gave them an invitation to come over. Where are the Ethics there? There are none. I am not afraid so much of Cyberterrorists as I am of Business. I am not afraid that they will inadvertantly harm me, I am afraid they will target me and people like me because I am tech savvy. Is there a line that needs to be drawn in the sand? Are there really limits to what an IT person will endure in the name ofcorperate success? Or, have we, like so many before us, just been lead down the primrose path, as fodder for the Big Business Juggernaught that really runs America?

23 replies

by mallardtooxx

I, for one, throw up this denial of service. No longer will I allow my peers and those above and below me dictate to me what it is that is ethical. I know right from wrong, I know good from bad, I will make my own decisions. Screw Big Business before it screws you!

As A SideBar:
I did not get fired nor did I quit my current position. I really do feel that this is something that needs to be addressed and I want your feed back so fire away and lets see where this leads. Thanks people
-duck

by thechas

I believe that here in the USA, we are loosing the definition of what is moral and ethical.

One need only look at the political dealing required of those who wish to run for a national office.

Even at the local level, many a politician is "in the pocket" of a local business.

Sadly, I am afraid that we have traded morals and ethics for quick personal gain. (Enron, Global Crossings)

Morals and ethics are not being taught in the home, and the school systems cannot agree on a common set of ethics to teach.

Look at many of the high school, college and professional sports teams. It's only a foul if the referee is watching.

I apologize for rambling.
And, I do not have an answer as to how to return ethics to our culture.

Chas

by maxwell edison

When people are unhappy with their jobs it’s oftentimes because the overall dynamics of the company are out of line with that person’s core values. A basically honest person would never feel happy working at a place where underhanded dealings (whatever they may be) are commonplace. And it’s equally true that someone who shows, shall I say, unscrupulous traits would be extremely uncomfortable working with people of principle.

Ethics not only plays (or should play) a big rolein the workplace, but should also be the guiding light in one’s life - the foundation on which everything is built. Indeed, the two can’t be separated. A person can’t be “shady” at work, but “straight-arrow”otherwise. Your values are either based on integrity or not. You can’t be both, and only unhappiness will befall the ones who try.

If a person ever finds himself at a job where the company’s values are totally out of sync with his ownvalues, then my advice would be to move on. Personally, I’d rather flip hamburgers with people of integrity than manage the best technological wonders with a bunch of sleaze bags.

You demonized “big business”. Big business, in my estimation, has gotten a bum rap. Sure, there are the Enrons of the world, but how many of the others try to play by the rules. It’s the bad guys that dominate the headlines, but it’s the good guys that suffer the consequences of the unfavorable public perception. Whether it’s big business or whatever, a certain percentage of people will give the rest of their peers a bad name.

The initial question, “Ethics, do we need them?” is, in my estimation, a rhetoricalone. My reply, “Ethics, we can’t survive without them.” All you can do is base your actions on a solid set of honorable core values, and just let the chips fall w

by maxwell edison

The initial question, “Ethics, do we need them?” is, in my estimation, a rhetorical one. My reply, “Ethics, we can’t survive without them.” All you can do is base your actions on a solid set of honorable core values, and just let the chips fall where they may. When this is the case, most people will find that their chips will end up stacking quite nicely.

by jellimonsta

There is a moral decay going on is the US. My personal belief is that this is a direct result of 'seperation between church and state'. While I feel that any person should have freedom of religion and that should be any religion they choose (even those weirdos who think that God is an alien), any major civilization that seperates from the spiritual beliefs it was founded on is on a slippery road downhill.
I think that due to this seperation, people feel they do not need to answer to anybody else, you can 'bend' the rules, dodge the law and screw your neighbor before they screw you. I do not mean to get on my soap box here but I am sure others have noticed that this 'live for yourself, live for today' attitude still has a consequence for what you did yesterday.

by mrafrohead

Though I don't agree with the religious aspect of your comment, I do agree with the rest of it.

People have forgotten what it's like to treat people with respect. Walk down a street and make eye contact with people. I guarentee that you don't make it to the end of the road before someone tries to get all up in your business. I'd be surprised though, if you got a single hello.

People don't treat others with respect anymore. It's really sad too. I believe more than anything else in the Golden Rule. Treat others as you wish to be treated. I try to be nice to everybody that I can. But on the flip side, if I'm nice to you and you crap on me, the wrath that I produce sometimes frightens me.

Most people are afraid to stand up for themselves and what they believe in. It amazes me how many people are plain cowards in this country. Some person is being beaten by a crowd of people and bystanders just stand their and watch. Because "there's nothing I can do, I might get hurt."But if you were the person that was getting beaten, you sure as shit would want a bystander to help you and not just watch. And that's what you do. Pull up your sleaves get some freakin courage and help the person!

People are too selfish. Instead of helping others, they watch them fall. I don't understand that. I don't understand how we can all be so mean to each other and then get pissed off when we get no respect in turn.

We're all the same here. We all bleed the same color and our hearts pump the same fluids. So why is it that we're so cold towards each other???

I don't think religion is going to help that. But then again, I don't know what will. Rereading what I just wrote. I think it's funny the observations made, and I can't think of a fix.

Mrafrohead

by mallardtooxx

or are we just thinking of the "good ole days" when everything was better? When I was a child my mother never locked her doors, never. I grew up in a small town and never gave any thought to this. When I went to college things changed, If I didn't lock my door then who knew what would happen. People were getting shot outside of parties, women were getting raped in bathrooms on campus. I thought to myself at that time, man things are changing. I moved off and lived in Chicago for 10 years but when it came time to raise my family I wanted to get out of the big city and go back to my roots so I bought a house in my home town. I still have to lock my doors. I think it is not so much the decay of the american culture, I think it is a general moral decay. I think we as humans have sat atop the foodchain so long we have begun to feel infalible. I am afraid we have set ourselves down a path that will not be easily altered nor will it be to our benefit. Jellmonsta is right, mrafrohead is right, it is both the Live for today and screw tomorrow attitude mingled with the I cannot change the world myself syndrome. But is there a fix? that is my true question, can we stave off the inevitable or are we just here for the ride? Manifest destiny versus Free will. IT versus Business.

by mallardtooxx

or are we just thinking of the "good ole days" when everything was better? When I was a child my mother never locked her doors, never. I grew up in a small town and never gave any thought to this. When I went to college things changed, If I didn't lock my door then who knew what would happen. People were getting shot outside of parties, women were getting raped in bathrooms on campus. I thought to myself at that time, man things are changing. I moved off and lived in Chicago for 10 years but when it came time to raise my family I wanted to get out of the big city and go back to my roots so I bought a house in my home town. I still have to lock my doors. I think it is not so much the decay of the american culture, I think it is a general moral decay. I think we as humans have sat atop the foodchain so long we have begun to feel infalible. I am afraid we have set ourselves down a path that will not be easily altered nor will it be to our benefit. Jellmonsta is right, mrafrohead is right, it is both the Live for today and screw tomorrow attitude mingled with the I cannot change the world myself syndrome. But is there a fix? that is my true question, can we stave off the inevitable or are we just here for the ride? Manifest destiny versus Free will. IT versus Business.

by maxwell edison

You said, "Most people are afraid to stand up for themselves and what they believe in."

Well, not me. I'll say whatever I think, articulate whatever I believe to whomever, regardless of the outcome - even if they think I'm rude for saying it.

Regards,

Maxwell

by generalist

I consider soap operas to be more responsible for moral decay than the separation of church and state. The situations many of them represent cover a full array of immoral behavior, all in the name of entertainment.

Now consider the fact that a lot of kids are exposed to soap operas when they are in their formative years. While adults theoretically can differentiate between fact and fiction, kids can't always do so. And if soap operas are their main form of socialization...

For that matter, there are a fair number of so called adults that seem to feel that television IS reality so what happens on TV is acceptable behavior in the real world.

Of course, the TV industry will deny that they affect behavior via their products. At the same time, they will charge advertisers millions of dollars to present commercials designed to affect behavior.

by mrafrohead

I don't know what manifest destiny is so I can't comment on that... But, sitting here and thinking about it. Yes, things will change. But I fear that it will be due to a major falling out with mankind. Only way I can describe it would be the magnitude that you would find in the wars in LOTR. I know that is a fictional movie, but I hope you get my point.

I think that we are going to run ourselves to a point where there will be nothing but chaos and destruction. A few of us will have to stand up for our beliefs and band together to defend the way of life that we should all be living and put to rest the way that we are currently living.

Then again though, if we got our freakin legal system in order, that may also help. Instead ofjailing dime bag pot dealers for five years and letting rapists out in six months. Maybe we should get drastic on major violators. You steal something once. You get a warning but are let go. You do it again, you lose a hand. Make there be consequencs for peoples actions.

I remember when I was a teenager. I got into more trouble than most people that I currently know. THE day I turned 18 and could be held accountable for my actions, I stopped. I didn't want to go to jail for fun. NowI look at my past and reflect and I'm rather ashamed, but I can at least say I learned how NOT to treat people!

by mrafrohead

I do think that things will change, I just don't know if it will happen any time soon. But then again, looking at the world around us as we speak. I don't know about you guys but I think it's getting downright scary. I want to leave to go and fight for our country and I'm afraid to leave here for fear of what may happen to my wife and kids if I'm not here to protect them.

But thinking of our status quo. Maybe changes are getting to be just around the corner. I just think that they're going to get much worse before they get better.

As all hope is lost, the light will lead us from the darkness. We just need to have faith in ourselves as people and we can make it.

Mrafrohead

by jkaras

I find that the more I visit this site at work to learn about computer solutions I'm begining to learn more than what I intended. My knew found addiction has a name and that is the techrepublic!! All the comments here that I have read here today as well as many others has re awoken reflective thought in my life. Thank you all for reinstilling me with that, I rather missed it.

by jkaras

I agree with the thoughts of our injustices that we face everyday and can only say that we should do our part in our own way. These stands that we make to make a difference or change has it's cost to ourselves. I once stood up to management while I was working retail. I was promoted to a supervisory position and always gave consessions to certain tactics that management made to it's employees due to employees playin there own game, wasn't right but evened playing field. What I didn't expect wasthe realization that they felt elevated and had little to no remorse for the tactics that they used. I was playing both sides arguing with management to change mind but would conceed when they wouldn't budge. I in turn would go behind their back andinstruct the unfortunate employee with the proper counter measure to thwart their tactic. The upper crust began to get wise too me, but couldn't do much too me. I gained massive respect with the employees and they responded well to my direction, resulting in higher profits than other stores in the market. Eventually management got even believing that I was no longer necessary. They waited for a slip up and came after me after passing over advancements that I was qualified for didnt discourage me to quit. They exploited a technical S.O.P. that nobody followed and got rid of me. The result had side effects. Management showed "he who has the gold makes the rules" and who really has the power, however there was a complete meltdown in morale and the store's profitability tanked. Corp. moved all managers to other stores keeping them employed, and replaced them with other managers. Employees no longer believe the store mantras, but I was on the curb so to speak. We each got our own little victory, but i walked away with the feeling that I did the right think and would do it again. I am no longer in management and I'm not to sure I would risk the situation again. I want

by jkaras

I want utopia to be seen in our lifetime where all is right in the world, problem is do we fight for that tomorrow or do we refuse to play the sick game that will force change? I don't know, but I will choose my battles when I know that I cant look away. Where's all the hippies when you want one? (less the smell of course)

by mrafrohead

Very very good point indeed!!!

If I wasn't sitting in my cube by myself with coworkers around me, I'd be clapping.

I applaud you for that.

Mrafrohead

by maxwell edison

I have, on occasion, laughed out loud at something I've read - within hearing distance of others, of course. No one has sent the padded wagon to pick me up yet.

But you know, it sure is a challenge writing something in such a way so as anyone reading it will interpret it in the manner intended. Can you imagine Don Rickles, for instance, writing his jabs on a thread like this instead of performing them?

by mrafrohead

I don't know who Don Rickles is, but I am assuming you're refering to a comedian. And no, I would have a hard time reading Seinfeld here without seeing it. Or Sponge Bob Square Pants for that matter;)

Oh crap, I hear the looney bins sirens coming already... Gotta run...........

by mallardtooxx

Just to clear things up....don rickles is now doing Glad trash bag commercials. =) And as for laughing and claping, well I think there may be a padded cell waiting for me if I was too quiet.
See this is what I am saying, there are people out here that are still unafraid to be themselves. I think it is a matter of, not so much being afraid, as it is just being unorganized. If we all just united and said "NO MORE" I think things would change, be it the RIAA or corporate America, if we say no than who will be there to make the bosses computer work? oh thats right no one.
one more thing Manifest Destiny....It was the belief that we as a nation had the god given right to expand across this continent. The only problem was there were these "savages" in the way. Imperialism at its best, kinda like Big Business. I am sorry if I was obtuse in my earlier post. +)
-duck

by oldefar

A lot of good posts above, so I don?t think we face a lack of ethics. The Golden Rule is a universally accepted basis for ethical behavior. It crosses religious and cultural lines.

Action based on ethics is a more difficult challenge. In many instances it places us ?outside? the group, and we are by nature social beings. It can put us in unpleasant circumstances such as being unemployed. It can put us in physical danger or even life threatening situations.

A funny thing happens when to someone when they act according to their ethics. The first thing is that the feeling of being victimized goes away. Next is a feeling of strength and self respect. Often that position of being outside the group changes as others begin to act ontheir beliefs as well ? only needing that one little push to finally find their own courage.

Social changes come about slowly. Look at America for example. We started with a grand plan over 200 years ago. Four generations ago slavery was stillaccepted. Three generations ago most workers had no rights of any kind. Two generations ago segregation was the rule rather than the exception. My generation began looking at natural resources as finite and thinking of Earth as a spaceship we areall on. Each change began not from a rich or powerful group or a government initiative, but as everyday individuals, little guys, working stiffs who began acting on their beliefs. Each change had the benefit of like minded people in previous generations who paved the way. These path finders were often unknown, often outcasts, and often paid a heavy price for their beliefs and actions. But change did come and continues to come. Tsunamis start with single drops set in motion.

by oldefar

A four star general makes 15 times what a raw recruit makes in the US Armed Forces. Yes, there are some variables with additional incentives like jump, flight, and combat pay (thanks Ernie Pyle), and with seperate rations and basic housing allowance. Some of these are off set by additional expenses officers pay but that enlisted get provided.

A full white paper on this is available in pdf format to anyone who emails me a request. It includes references and links.

by admin

And a good description of a White Hat it was.

Why do some people have a set of ethics that looks out for not only themselves, but goes beyond to help others or a greater good?

I have no idea really.

Kant said a lot about verifiable principles and Descarte built them from self awareness, but you still have to have it in your heart to choose a "good" premise to begin with and follow it up with logic. I think, in the end, it requires a sort of faith in the most basic choice of underlying beliefs that one finds through thinking with their heart and then turns them into ethics with their more logical brain. Even with principles being taught at home or school, everyone turns out different and chooses their fundamental beliefs in a mysterious way that precedes logic and is still elusive to science. The difference in ethics between a black or white hat (and those inbetween) can share much of the same logic, yet start from just a slightly different premise.

I believe that this accounts for the appreciation that can exist between cop\criminal or White Hat\Black Hat yet put them on quite amazingly opposite yet congruent paths.

:)

by admin

keep looking and talking to people. I work in a social work company where many things in management happen in a different model. When our funds were being cut at the end of last year, top management took the biggest cuts, mid management second biggest and employees none. All this to keep, amoung other things, an excellent health care package for everyone. They even provide alternative food for different diets at banquets, lunches etc. and make an effort to temper the donuts with veggie trays and offer incentives for people to get exercise. They value family and let people work very flexibly to spend time with their kids, which is a big thing for me. The downside? it is less money, but it's enough to live on if you are careful.

I have heard other stories from those in some school districts in IT. The sane jobs are harder to find, but with a little luck one can find or create one, although it often does mean a more simple lifestyle than is often associated with IT. Finding like minded people which eventually leads to employment happens when you express what you desire freely.

I wish you the best in your path :)

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