Ethics, Professionalism, and IT

There are many questions to dispute about the IT world.First of all IT was a brave new world just few years ago,when only engineer and technicians
used it.When this knowledge and technology was added to Industry things changed.Although you can say that only after Windows 95 this process run on!...
Next deepening later,I had to get my daughter from skating...

wow, a lot of stuff. sure feels like this is a hot topic for many people.
I've been in systems and network support for 10 years professionally and then an extra 4 years in school.

About knowledge:
One of the most interesting points I've read in the threads were that certs, degrees, education don't make you a pro. I could not agree more.

One goes from having a job to having a professional career by shifting their attitude and understanding of their field - think of it if you will as an apprentice learning from a master. 25+ years of exposure isn't learned and most importantly assimilated in 4, 5 or even 6 years.

Personally, I've only held one cert -which has now long since expired. My college degree is in Communications and Fine Arts.
I've never had the luxury of time or money to cough up the insane amounts of cash required to train and certify. Every now and then I'd work for a company good enough to count Certifications as degrees and would make tuition plans available - most firms will send you to training but won't certify you for fear of your leaving them. (won't go into details here, read on further)

About Ethics, moral codes of conduct:

In a world where the distinction between right and wrong is blurred more often than not I have found it difficult to deal with this subject - with young and mature people alike.

Ethics? Morality? Decency? don't they all depend on one's perspectives, geographic location, lives and what happens to be convenient in the moment?

I believe that one has to treat other with respect. That includes the people who spent countless hours creating the software we use every day. Piracy and copyrights infrigement isn't cool. Personally, I believe some prices are unreasonable but that's my problem. There are many software solutions out there.

side note: Until recently prices for software were fixed (still are unfortunately in many cases), so a person in Bangladesh paid the same than a guy in Ethopia who paid the same as the Irish who paid the same as the American.... I think that sorta makes my point.

You said, quote "but limiting it to IT workers because business overall would be too broad of a subject. "

Convenient, no doubt.

The corporation, devoid of ethics, as so well proved by the Michael Millkens, Enrons, Global Crossings, Goldman Sachs, Arthur Andersons et al, of the world all DEMAND pro-company ethics from employees, but hand out golden parachutes only to the CEO class, and I do mean class, of employees.

People who actually do the work get, at best, permission to train their replacements from third world countries.

Americans generally have known this since the Ludlow massacre, and give only as good as they get, since the corporate motto, indeed, the raison de'tre of the corporation is to give as little in wages as possible, while receiving the absolute maximum in executive perks.

Want ethics?

Start at the top by firing every outsourcer who replaces those who made the company prosper.

It is beyond belief to see this kind of stuff aimed at I.T. workers given the deplorable conditions that we have management to thank for. I am management in I.T., worked my way up from the very bottom. After 20 years I find the entire industry a mess due to Top and Middle management that knows nothing about I.T. Too bad for the CEO that isn't interested in finding out some facts.

The truth is a real leader is one who creates an environment where people want to be, that encourages creative thinking and learning, not one that constantly pays less, that gets rid of people, that goes after cheaper resources abroad, that brings in cheaper resource from outside, that forces competition (as if there isn't enough pressure in this industry). Has anyone ever bothered to consider the magnitude of change in I.T. and how hard it is for anyone to keep up? Where is the management support? NOWHERE! Instead, its more like "we have to let you go" because its cheaper to outsource. Excuse me you bunch of louses -- long term value is investing in your own resources and paying them well.

Step up to the plate and build an environment where we want to stay -- lets see how many of you strike out... Instead you're more interested in kicking us around. You're nothing but garbage with a total lack of understanding of the complexity of I.T., far more complex than anything else on the planet and far more difficult to keep up. Doctors and Lawyers have it easy compared to I.T. -- nothing changes at the same pace, nothing.

Go ahead and outsource to third world countries, hire cheap immigrants. The long term damage will be what you deserve.

All too often we are caught in the middle when it comes to software licensing. Most of us can report to our managers all day long about the lack of software licensing, it's costs and it's penalties, but when backed against the wall... jobs are pretty scarce, so if the COO of the company wants to "borrow" the Office CD for the weekend, he gets it.

Unfortunately, companies like Microsoft don't see this internal conflict. Should the BSA come goose-stepping to the door and find unlicensed software, we're the ones facing loosing our certs and never making a living again; but the company facing large fines, declares bankrupcy, closes shop and from the ashes a new company will eventually appear.

I believe that you are pointing the finger at the wrong people for lack of software compliance, it's a business decision made at the top. And it keeps people like me, from joining professional institutions like ACM, because I would need to adhere to their code of ethics.

Jerry A. Taylor
Taylor Consulting Services
PO Box 63
Powder Springs, Georgia 30127

Jon Dewton
PC Support
Great Plains Technology Center
4500 W Lee Blvd
Lawton, Oklahoma 73505
(580)355-6371

Dear Sir:

I will briefly answer your ponderous essay with a brief summation of my observations after 20 years in the industry consulting with Fortune 100, federal and state government clients.

A true professional does not offer withering advice under the cover of nom de plume. A true professional put his name on the line when he makes statements.

A true professional does not offer as words of truth the statements of a drug-addicted, pathological lying plagorist as words of inspiration. Perhaps you should do some research before you decide to quote anymore gems of Ron's.

Unions are formed by workers in a collective forming a barganing agreement with owners and management. This site http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Economics can prehaps explain the details of basic terms of economics, so that in the future, you will be able to form a factually correct argument.

And lastly, I have known very few Chief Executive Officers that worshipped at any altar other than the Holy Dollar Bill.

Rather than posting a personal diatribe on the lack of professionalism in others, perhaps you can draw inspiration from this quotation:

"You don't lead by hitting people over the head-that's assault, not leadership"

- President Dwight D. Eisenhower

You're right about at least one thing: Ethicality is the hallmark of true professionalism. What you seem to utterly fail to realize -- and from this proceeds most of your mistakes in this post -- is that ethicality isn't derived from law. In an ethical society, law is derived from ethics.

We don't live in an ethical society. For instance: Microsoft manipulates legislators and intellectual property legislation unethically to suit its own short-term corporate goals. Despite this, to judge by your words, it seems you'd consider Microsoft to be the final arbiter of ethicality.

Microsoft regularly flouts industry standards, as proven convincingly by its handling of XML authoring in various WYSIWYG applications and it's code interpretation in Internet Explorer. Meanwhile, Microsoft uses your precious End User License Agreements to extort money, coerce submission to its attempts to secure and maintain monopoly, and make criminals of as many people as possible so that they are at the mercy of its management and legal department.

The sad truth is that intellectual property law, even if you accept the basic premise of intellectual "property" as ethical (which I, as an ethical theorist, do not), is hopelessly broken -- not just in the United States, but internationally as well. Patent racketeering and treatment of litigation as a revenue stream for businesses like Microsoft and SCO (to say nothing of the RIAA's member corporations) runs rampant. The fact that you blindly buy into the FUD sown by such criminal actors in the marketplace is an indictment of your understanding of ethicality and, thus, true professionalism.

Your words are absolutely correct, insofar as you say that a professional does not recommend violation of the law of the land in the course of doing business. That would be irresponsible, and generally not in the best interests of the client. You're dead wrong to assume that means that the law of the land is the authoritative final word on what is ethical. I don't use p2p filesharing networks to trade MP3s, I don't use illegal copies of software on my computers, and I don't (intentionally) violate copyright or patent restrictions in the course of doing business. At the same time, I don't recognize strict application of intellectual property law to coerce revenue streams into existence as ethical. At every turn, I do what I can to help my clients avoid unethical businesses like Microsoft, moving them toward open source solutions that will better serve their needs and reduce their susceptibility to monopolistic, and otherwise coercive, influences.

Your estimations of the world are naive and unrealistic. Bureaucratic licensing boards are often the source of corruption, rather than the cure for it. Your adherence to PHB slogans and bromides doesn't help anyone become a better worker. Unionization destroys the professionalism of industries, more often than not.

You list a lot of characteristics that seem superficially true of professionals, but you betray a distinct lack of true understanding of what makes a professional. Reading Microsoft press releases doesn't make you an expert in the industry, holding a Microsoft certification doesn't make you a professional, and buying into the Microsoft monopoly doesn't make you the final authority on ethicality.

Lest you think I'm some spoiled amateur, you should know that I'm a well-dressed, Microsoft- and CompTIA-certified, decently paid network administrator, web programmer, and information technology consultant.

Well said! I also am a twenty year experienced IT Professional.
If I had spent the time and money required to stay certified in every product Microsoft has introduced I'd be the poorest, smartest, dumbass on Earth.
I guess I'd also have to be certified in our telephone systems, Routers, copiers, and every printer and plotter we use in this company and I've probably left something out! Oh, I forgot to mention Netware and Linux, too.
I've got a life outside this office and I already spend more of that time here working than I want to. I would have to have a clone to get all the certifications required to be a "Proffessional" according to the person who launched this insidious rant! You were exactly right when you said " I feel like I just read a temper tantrum"! I felt exactly the same way!

That post is huge....but I agree with the parts of it I skimmed through.

Pleae no anti-Christian flames. This IS an ethics discussion, and I'm discussing hiring practices and giving examples.

I agree that we can forget about Ethics Certification (the Pharisees tried it - passing the test was easy, but they didn't measure up as they lived their lives).

One of the problems is that in hiring you can't ask a bloody thing about a fellow's personal life. If he cheats on his wife, for instance, he's betrayed a vow he made before God and witnesses... should we give him access to sensitive data? If he gives 10% of his paycheck to the church (charity, etc.), one might get the idea that he is trying to serve something bigger than merely "he who dies with the most toys wins". How much debt does he have? How does he feel about that? Why is he in debt, and what is he doing about it? Is his family in order?

Scripture includes hiring recommendations for holding church office, for example, which would be a bit tricky to use in today's HR setting: see I Tim 3:1-13 if you're interested (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NKJV&passage=I+Tim+3%3A1-13 ).

The current IT certifications and education are absurd and mean nothing. The majority is brand or manufacturer specific. Would you certify a doctor by having that person study at the XYZ drug company to learn about that company's drugs? Does that make this person a bonified doctor? Absolutely not. It is the same with IT. In order to correctly setup a certification process for IT, a independent organization needs to be created that would specify the requirements to become an IT professional. Just like the professions of mechanics, doctors, electrians, structural engineers, etc.
This organization would also setup the ethics bylaws of the profession and the processes to deal with rogue people. The organization is financed via the professional dues by license holders. And the manufacturers must keep their paws out of it.

My two cents worth.

Nothing new. This was a hot topic in the late 1960s and early 1970s at the Boeing Company. This was largely due to the performance of the Computer departments. Now keep in mind that Boeing was an Engineering company and they knew how professional engineers were expected to behave. Keep in mind that they also had and still do have a Professional's union. Boeing alsoonly hired college graduates in engineeing or science into their computing departments. (More on this later) ALthough, for a variety of reasons, the most qualified people wound up in the engineering department. The entire managment of the engineering department was old experienced engineers up to and including the head of engineering for the entire company. Data processing, on the other hand, was staffed with people under 25 and the managment was a hodge podge of the competent, incompentent almost all without any significant experience in the field. So, Data Processing tended to perform poorly. Nothing has changed, except perhaps the age of he people in Data Processing. The management of data processing in any company is a dead end job removed from the mainstream of the enterprise. Professionals? You've got to be kidding. The people in charge don't have a clue as to what should be expected of their staff and the entire thrust is to build a cheap maintenance staff. And why not? You might not be able to run the company without it but you can be dammed sure it will never become a "profit center". Think about it. Engineers use tools to design products which the company builds and sells. Sales people use tools to locate customers, etc. DP people use tools to build tools for these other people to use. Sure the tool maker is important and makes huge contributions to the efficiency of the others but he doesn't directly contribute to the enterprise. What should is cannon be? "An honest days work for an honest days pay.", Don't break the law. Do what the boss says (literally). He's got no obligation to the stock holders or the public.

... Joe

Hi;

Thank you very much for bringing up this subject. I know that it seems we can boil this all down to "professionalism"; but we can't.

Some particular points:

In every one of the dozens of organizations I have worked during the past 2 decades, it has always been mgmt (emphatically NOT the staff) that has smirked and scoffed at licensing and pirating issues.

It has always been employees who have pleaded for add'l training, education, or texts (or time to review texts); mgmt has always heaped on work hours so that there was NO time left to help oneself advance.

Ironically, however, even though this topic is too broad, the issue(s) are broader than we are discussing... i.e., I/T is no different than any other profession when we want to discuss "professionalism". The over-arching issue(s) of professionalism is/are broader than we think; e.g., the litany of Professional v. Amateur that you provide is entirely related to work environment, and not to personal effort. And that would be an entirely different discussion altogether. :-(

p.s. I am in mgmt and have always been chided for championing training and advancement. I feel it is more forward thinking for the organization as a whole to ensure their staff is prepared; rather than scoffing at the employees for not improving themselves. Remember, as soon as a company grows to the point where it has a significant affect on the lives of customers and employees alike, that company has become the family for those individuals, and is now responsible for the well being of those individuals. This is the concept that is lacking in the minds of all business owners throughout history. You are not merely providing a product or a service. You are affecting lives. Don't waste our time, therefore, arguing about professionalism. If you re-focus on what you are doing, as a whole, in your business endeavor, you can improve the situation for your customers, your employees, and yourself.

when you find major outbreaks of lack of ethics, you will usually find a major problem with the provider of the product or service. either the cost is unreasonable for the value received or most likely the provider enjoys a monopolistic advantage (eg microsoft) and there is a significant lessening in the likelyhood that unethical behavior will be deemed as unethical behavior. while ethics should be axiomatic, it is relative to the circumstances of the situation.
in other words, if we have to steal to survive, we will. i like to think that i am an ethical person but where microsoft and walmart and their ilk reside, i say a pox on all of them and they deserve any comeuppance they receive.

I agree with many of your comments regarding professionalism. It is a source of my frustration because I have met a significant number of people in IT that are lazy, expect big salaries, and lack professionalism.

I have done some real world projects, and want to make my career change permanent. I am overlooked because I am competing with individuals whose resume shows more experience, but I guarantee that many of them do not have my professional attitutude, and many probably do not have my ability.

However, as another member pointed out, not all CEOs and higher-ups are exactly ethical. I have ecountered CEOs that will do anything to turn a dollar. Enron should be a reminder of that fact.

I agree with most of the content from the TipsForSuccess.org website. The remarks are good traits to adopt and practice --they will not hurt you privately or professionally. It has such a "Do unto others" feeling about the writing.

The statements they wrote in their analogy are so Yin and Yang that anyone could have written it. I even sensed someone's Mother telling the writer to "Tell Johnny to clean his room."

I am thankful that the ideology writing did not become an orgy of simple true/false statements -moment, it did. There were 18 statements --just over the 15 statements definition of Writer's Orgy. I hope this writing was not the pinnacle of the writer's career.

I disagree with the statement: "A professional earns high pay. An amateur earns low pay and feels it's unfair.

A professional has a promising future. An amateur has an uncertain future."

Point 1: I know many amateur businesses and people who make too much money or demand too much for their services or capabilities. Amateurs demand, professionals command.

Point 2: I know many entry-level Professionals who feel that their pay is not enough or fair, not because they feel they are deserved something, but because they know what they are worth and know they are not fairly compensated for what they offer day to day. These Professionals are appreciative that they have work, but go long enough unrewarded any person will look for better environments.

At the time of this writing (October 2004), the IT Boom has been at a plateau for the past 3 years and is eroding in some areas -that is not a forecast. Companies expect more for less. Companies outsource rather then "own." It is cheaper to let the work pile up then Contract out a position for a short duration. These Contractors are Professionals who are disgusted with becoming a disposable asset --you would too after doing it for a prolonged period. Go long enough without someone investing in you and treating you as an important asset to their enterprise everyone will complain about their pay.

Point 3: Everyone has a Promising Future. Everyone starts out with the same clean slate anytime they start at a job. However many variables makes even the Professional's future uncertain. Company re-organizations find Professionals reapplying for their own jobs. Many Professionals find out that they are going back to school for their MBA, sometimes even for their Doctorate. Even the most steadfast and devout "company man" has no control over his Executives or how his Shareholders vote.

Parting Thought: You have to keep in mind that even the most resourceful and crafty individual (Professional or Amateur) cannot "win" every situation or squeeze water from a turnip. I was left the impression that the writer or the transcriber from the Professional-Panel/Discussion-Group/Open-Forum was/were either: A Priest(s); Someone/People from inherited wealth; A Self-Made Person(s) that got lucky who subscribes to himself/their self as being Industrious (they often are found writing books now); A .Com turned Philanthropist; A Politician(s); A Disconnected Executive(s) who spends their day in Webcasts/Webinars; Those who work for Disconnected Executives; Or anyone else who has not been in the Field or has not checked in on their Network of Peers.

Some of the statements are so pompous I can only think that TipsForSuccess.org is sponsored in part by the same Companies we work for. Anyone look in to that? Mike Dupris

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Like RknRlKid, I am from Oklahoma. North of OKC is an affluent community known as Edmond, in which I worked as a PC tech for a time (on-site and in-shop). I charged what I thought was a fair price, but below what most others in the area were charging although the quality of my service and my sense of ethics was much higher than my comrades. I didn't get a lot of business.

A friend with more business savvy than I recommended I raise my hourly rate to better match what others in the area were charging. So I called around and got rates, then took the average, added 20 bucks to it and made it my hourly rate. MY BUSINESS DOUBLED WITHIN TWO WEEKS!

If you don't charge a lot, it seems that poeple think that you're not worth a lot. They take that whole "you get what you pay for" thing quite seriously.

The author of the main post sounds very much like a Pointy Haired Boss that knows absolutely nothing about IT workers, professional or otherwise.

I want to take issue with, or at least open up for further discussion, your comments about professional organizations. It sort of parallels what many people think has happened to the large union organizations - they start out with very high goals and ideals and then eventually end up acting only to preserve their own existence.

I will take the example you used of the American Counseling Association because I have experience with social workers and therapists and their professional ethics and organizations. My parents were both social workers and they were very much concerned about and involved with the development of standards of ethics and practice for their profession. When they started out in their profession, after WWII, there were no such organizations or professional standards. They felt very strongly that these standards needed to be established and enforced in order to protect clients from people who claimed to be therapists but didn't have the clinical training and/or understanding of the ethics required to be a professional therapist. So, the situation is not that different - as the profession of social work/therapy/counseling matured, the professional organizations were created to help establish these endeavors as "professions" rather than simply a "job" that almost anyone could do. The end result has been that government got involved in many states to require counselors/therapists to be licensed, and the professional organizations were involved in many ways to establish the criteria for being licensed.

The idea of licensing or accrediting certain colleges and universities to provide the necessary training is almost a natural offshoot of all of this. But it certainly becomes cumbersome and can be unnecessarily expensive and restrictive. Now, does this all necessarily guarantee that everyone who gets a license is a "good therapist"? I don't think so, but I do think it's better than leaving the field open to anyone who decides that they can be a counselor or therapist. Conversely, does it bar some people from the profession who could be and are good therapists? Perhaps, but hopefully there are programs or avenues available to help those people get the credentials and knowledge they need to pass the exams and be licensed.

So, I guess one question we as a profession (because, regardless of certifications and standards or lack of them, we ARE a profession) have to answer is - Is this the road we want to go down? Or is there another road that we can find that leads to a recognition of us as a profession and establishment of standards of practice that we can all accept, but without the governmental and regulatory restrictions, and attendant costs, that almost always ensue?

I sure don't have any answers, but I like to ask the questions and see what other people think...

Well, I understand your perspective, even if it does lack a certain understanding of the english language, and of our profession and the world in which we live.

First, amateur doesn't mean you are less skilled, or even less qualified, it simply means that you do it because you love it. And, as many others have pointed out, professional merely means that you get paid for it. So, if you are doing it just for money, and not because you love and enjoy it, that doesn't make you better than the rest of us, and entitled to be judgemental and sanctimonious, rather, it makes you a prostitute.

In terms of our industry, well, and ethics, watch the movie "The Pirates of Silicone Valley" sometime, and think about it a bit. Just because the robber baron has become more powerful than the king doesn't mean that all of the people in the land owe him any debt of moral or ethical servitude. Let me ask you a question? Was Robin Hood more or less ethical than the Sheriff of Nottingham?

I'm not trying to introduce moral relativism into this discussion, I'm trying to introduce perspective. What we are dealing with in our world is total anarchy, with monopolistic lords, viruses, spam, and spyware, all attempting to subjugate and defraud our clients. Our ethical obligations are too our clients.

Not that I am suggesting wholesale theft, or recommending that anyone visit serials.ws (watch out for viruses there!!!!!!) Just like farming, if you never fertilize, or put anything back, soon your fields will become barren.

I always make sure that every client has some proportion of licensed copies of software that they are using, first to make sure that the developers are getting some revenue, second for convenience of documentation and support. But I will never have a hissy fit if there are only three licenses and 5 installed copies. I make a point of explaining the license agreement to the client, explaining the relative risks and benefits, and allowing them to make an informed decision.

And I strongly support shareware and beggarware, and make it a point to donate generously to anyone who has put something great out there. Even at the most selfish level, this is a good thing to do, because it assures you that they, and others like them, will continue to put their efforts to good use.

But I will not bleat like a sheep, and beg for a shearing, just because the robber barons have gotten control of the pasture!!!!!!

Man, I really like this link! I printed it off immediately. I have the same outlook as this document but this solidifies it for all to see! You are right...sums it all up.

My first thought as a free-thinking IT professional is that while the original post about what being a professional means carries with it a lot of good points, L. Ron Hubbard doesn't strike me (visionary of Dianetics) as a good example himself.

It's very, very easy to point a finger at someone and say "you're not this" or "you're not that". What's a lot harder is not being a hypocrite. None of us embodies all of these traits, yet by not qualifying in one of them you can by association have the rest mean nothing?

I earn a reasonably high salary for what I do, I have a promising future and sometimes I produce more than expected, sometimes I don't. I'm human, so is everyone else last time I checked. Sometimes I'm happy, sometimes not. it's the nature of what we do, we hand-hold. The best of us are the former more than the latter. The ones of us that are employed are obviously more of the former points than the latter.

Now on to education, certification and training; I agree that the majority of my co-workers are not certified, trained or appropriately motivated to achieve industry certifications. The big catch with IT related training and certs is that they expire often. In most other fields a professional degree or college degree retains merit over the course of an entire career. Unless you can see yourself truly benefiting from the IT certification or you plan on being someone that consults or moves from job to job, there isn't a whole lot of reason to keep recertifying, especially if you're a long-timer with a ton of career security.

People have lives. Certifications take a lot of time and an education is a hard thing to come by when you're trying to put food on the table.

Now that being said, I have a BA, and I'm going back to school for Computer Science and Electrical Engineering. I've earned the MCSA and MCSE twice. I carry the A+ and Novell Admin cert and been gainfully employed in both full-time permanent and side IT contracting for the last decade. I've made more since the dot com bust. I'm obviously not the unmotivated, unprofessional type that the CEO would see when coming to these forums in the mind of the author, but I very well could be. Especially if some of these "professionalism" traits are brought into consideration.

If I'm a CEO with no interest in technology aside from who supports me, I'm not coming to these forums. If I'm a CEO with some tech savvy I already know that there are many, many different types of people that fill the IT space and most people who spend a lot of time posting on forums aren't working.

If I'm a CIO I see this site as a valuable resource for my employees, both as a answer resource and an example to my employees of what kind of behavior and attitudes don't get someone ahead. If people are dissatisfied with their careers and posting here, then there's a reason why.. read, learn and grow.

No one needs to be 110 percent all the time to be a professional. All that is needed are three or four basic traits.

1. Know when to work hard.
2. Know when to play hard.
3. Have respect for the work you do and your self-image.
4. Have respect for your clients and their image.

Other than that just enjoy the technology. We often forget that we're grown men and women playing with the most advanced erector sets ever created. There's a certain fun in that.

Thanks
Al

Ethics is a very slippery slope. Is American business ethical? It is predatory and criminal. Lets see some examples..

The overthrow of Allende's leftist, but democratically elected government by CIA agents posing as executives of ITT (the telephone company). The sale of high-tar cigarettes by a tobacco company (the Marlboro man) overseas, while low-tar were sold in the US, makes one think at least some executives thought that third world lives were less precious than American ones.

Who can forget Eli Lilly? That pharma giant shipped drugs overseas to areas hit by natural disaster. Until someone discovered that the drugs were useless since the people in the region had never suffered from the diseases that the drugs were meant for. As was later noted in the Scientific American, the drugs were shipped as they were close to their expiry dates.....and apparently the EPA has strict rules about their disposal. You guessed it...the proper disposal, within US, would have have been expensive.

Ofcourse ENRON manages to make this list as well.

Coming back to IT..Though IT work is sometimes shoddy, its because IT does what it has been told to do by the business. More often than not, it is the application of yet another band-aid.

Business needs to look in the mirror more often. The author needs to open his/her eyes.

Another responder to this thread also commented on the lack of ethics, etc. with regard to not just this aspect of business, but also with management, advertising, operations and our customers and our products.

We have become a greedy society, grabbing whatever we can for the least amount of effort and nowhere is this more harmful (and obvious) than in corporate management.

The reason for this is the top-down effect management has on an organization. Once the rot is here, there is no way to stop it, thanks to the current rules of corporate governance which permit executive officers to sit on boards of public corporations, thereby eliminating the checks and balances that that system was intended to provide.

Some corporate officers are firmly entrenched in the belief that the short term bottom line is all that matters - and it is - if they intend for the company to survive only long enough for them to collect a nice raise and severance package. In line with this they hire least-cost employees, with no training and little experience or dedication, and then fire them periodically to avoid having to give them raises or benefits. They also 'can' anyone else that shows the capability for independent and reasoned thought for this could be a threat to their (lack of) 'leadership'.

So their employees have little cause to show dedication, acquire training, get certified, show initiative, or behave professionally. As with any thing - you get what you pay for.

I run a computer lab at a community college. The students are issued logons at the beginning of the sememster, and are provided "cookbook" instructions on how to log on and change their passwords. I have found that those who first read the sheet never need my help. There are those who come running to me immediately. I refer them to the printed help and they log in and change their passwords successfully. The rest who refuse to try to follow the instructions are always at my door. You can provide simple procedures and clear instructions, but you can't design the factor of laziness out of human nature.

I think the topic of what is professional and how that applies to IT is interesting. One of the major problems with the IT field, is that there really is very little to no standardization across the field. In accounting, there is the CPA exam and in Law the Bar. These exams are based on a relatively small subset of the profession each is testing basic skills like interpretation and memorization of material around this body of knowledge. In addition, they both have a code of ethics that guide the groups actions in their professional careers. In IT, there are certifications that can be had, similar to the CPA and Bar exams. Just like the CPA and Bar exams, students can attend classes and do test reviews, so they have a higher opportunity to pass the test. Once an accounting student or law student passed their certifications, would a professional firm take on a large complex high profile case on their own? Highly unlikely. So, what would normally happen. They would be assigned to more senior professionals and work under their guidance and mentoring untill they have proven they can take on added responsibility. IT is somewhat different and similar to these professions. What constitutes a professional in IT? Is it the ability to memorize basic answers to a test? Is it being expert in a particular technology? Must you know how to write a compiler to be a professional in IT? Must you know all the methodologies for analyzing and building software systems, or just oine of them? Should you know the technology required to implement all the methodologies or just one methodology? Are you a professional if you know how to architect a JAVA solution using SUN's architecture, or a C# solution using Microsoft's architecture? Is it proper and good architecture practice to base a software architecture on any manufacturers specific platform? Should the professional know SQL Server, Oracle, DB2, MySQL, Postgres or Ingres? Or should the professional just know relational data modeling? Is it professional to only go to 3rd normal form, or is 4th or 5th normal form required to be professional? In order to be a professional, no innovation is possible? Are professionals not able to be scientists? Thanks, Ken Salyards.

Unions bad. We don't need no stinkin union. Maybe up North where it costs 3 times the $$ to do bizness. Oh wait, it costs so much because of unions.

Word up! From a man that dresses the part (Jeans at heart, Dockers from Wal-Mart), acts the part (considers the audience and omits Geek if it will sound Greek) and lives the part (a hobbyist and enthusiast.) I couldn't afford the modem, but remember: writing basic to ask you your name and have it display back: Hello "Mike" Select from the following...; copying down machine code from a magazine to play a game (now THAT is devotion; trying mathematical formulas out to see their results in Logo --who knew a little color changing cursor running around the screen could captivate and inspire a million children in to doing this?

With 30 years in the engineering computer industry. I have a little bit of experience with the way it used to be, and the way it is today as a professional. Thirty years ago, an individual usually went to work for a large company one or both of their parents worked for. They received a relative decent wage and benefits for their dedication to the company. Employees took a lot of pride in their employer and the job they performed. This was the only company they would ever work for and retire usually at the age of 65. An engineer usually started at the bottom learning the companies business and gaining experience. Most engineers and technicans were hard working & respected. When the computer industry needs exceeded supply of technical people. Companies started paying more for NEW employees then those that had worked for the company for any length of time. So the trend was if you want to get ahead, you have to change jobs.
In the early 1980's the average turn over for computer technical people was every 2-1/2 years.
During this same era, (70's - 2000) companies started hiring excessive numbers of middle managers. Mostly with management degrees but no technical experience. Or real experience dealing with any people, let alone technical people. Technical people who are more concerned with finding or developing a solution to a problem then they are attending useless meetings and filling out progress charts & graphs to justify the managers existance. Techie's became known as "hard to deal with", uncooperative", etc.. Since the managers really don't understand the technical part of the problems, they want the project completed in half the time with half the resources to make THEM look good to higher management. Then put the blame on the techie's when the project doesn't meet the schedule or crashs the first time its used. At the first site of company money problems the first people laid off are the engineers and developers. In the early 1970's electronic HARDWARE development and production went offshore. Today the trend is to offshore the SOFTWARE engineering development, documentation and support of anything to do with computers. The company that expects dedicated, loyal, knowledgable, experienced IT people. Wants to hire support employees with at least a MCSE certification. The MCSE takes 7 courses, about a year to complete and a cost of $ 20,000, if formal training is used. For this they want to pay UPTO $ 15.00 and hour or $ 30,000 a year. This is a pretty poor return on investment for the new employee. For programmers and engineers the same companies want experience of upto (by actual count) 34 different programming languages on 3 or more operating systems. With 3 to 5 years experience in THEIR industry. Many require experience in what ever programs the company uses for their development, backup, documentation, etc.
For anyone meeting this requirement (I really don't think GOD has come down to apply) the company is willing to pay about 25 to 30% of what was paid five years ago. Five years ago 6 to 10 engineers would have been used to meet the same requirement for a single engineer today.
While the people doing the work are being offered 1985 wages (that's a fact) the average CEO of a fortune 500 company receives more then $ 4 MILLION in salary and bennies.
Most companies in the computer industry no longer pay relocation expenses for new employees. Are cutting back on the amount of people needed to do the job, meaning more unpaid overtime, and stress for those doing the job. Cutting back on health care, life insurance and training expenses. Expect employees to increase their knowledge yearly on their own time at mostly if not all of their own expense.
Maybe now, you understand why employees will copy software programs for their own use. Use company time to increase their knowledge. And take the attitude that since the company will probably outsource my job as soon as they can, really don't give a damn about a company that will probably shut down in the next couple of years anyway. Data General, DEC, Sperry Univac, Borroughs, RCA, Compaq (now owned by HP) were industry giants, now they don't exist. Or have been obsorbed by other companies. IBM had about 85% of the industry in the mid 80's. Not so anymore. The computer industry in the USA is shuting down and going offshore. Anyone that doubts this, call for support from any of the large PC companies. You'll find yourself talking to someone in India or China or Russia that doesn't understand you or your problem.
If you apply for wellfare in the sate of PA you will be talking to someone in India. If your IRS 1040 tax form is auditied, it is done in INDIA.
When the US AND STATE governments are selling our industry to offshore interests. There isn't a lot of hope for non goverment companies.
Don't expect a professional to be "Professional" when you treat them like an idiot and only expect them to be with the company until the project can be sent off shore. The only thing that counts with American industry today is: How much profit can we make for the CEO and share holders. At both the companies future and employee expense.
We have lost our farming, manufacturing and technical industries to offshoring.
The writing has been on the wall for 15 years, but we as a country are too stupid to see it!
People in this country no longer care about anyone but themselves. "Let someone else do the work", "That's not my problem", "Couldn't care less". And that's the same attitude that companies have taken with their employees and the companies future.
Today, 2004 if you take your car to the dealers for work you will pay 3 times ($90.00) the hourly rate for the services of an auto mechanic then what the average software engineer ($30.00) makes. Think about it !

I am in government service and work with many IT contractors. I have to agree that there is a sense of entitlement with many contractors. I am often reminded not to hurt the contractor's feelings by doing things like asking them to do their job.

Louindc

It's easy to be all high and mighty and set high standards in the educational and business arena. It protects the incumbants.

All of us professionals need to remember that what we leave as lasting contributions- even in this field- is really who we train and what they go on to do.

Professionals teach their replacements how to succeed and become professional.

Professionals work with and encourage and train amateurs whenever they can.

Can you imagine the sports world if Amateur sports were looked down on? My kids soccer coach is the coolest guy in the world. IT should be civic minded and thinking long term as well.

I too, understand the strength courage and power of being an amateur, being hungry to learn and happy to create things like networks in your spare time and even pay for them with your own money working a job to get where you want to be.

Too often we see "professionals" who will have nothing to do with "amateurs". They got a degree and their certs and they still have no wisdom and little useable knowledge. They despise the amateur and hate their power users too. Well, BAH! on them.

Amateurs and Professionals unite and build a better world! F**k L Ron FeelgoodHubbard and be the best person you can be.

And BTW- stop being unethical if you are. I know Professionals who get paid a lot of money specifically because they are unethical in this field. Stop it. You'll sleep better and have more time to make a positive impact in your community and actually be able to be a good role model for the kids who are watching and learning from what you do. Its not too late- stop being unethical for your own good.

I'm a little underwhelmed by the rock and roll kid's observation. If I were the Martian CEO he postulated, getting my first impression of the American IT profession by reading the TR bulletin board, my impression would be that it is the EXECUTIVES, and to a slightly lesser extent the MANAGERS in this business who are "poorly trained (or completely incompetent), greedy, and criminal."

That is certainly the underlying and excruciatingly well documented complaint in the majority of the postings here. Managers who don't follow their own rules, who don't reward good performance and criticize bad, who just don't care. Executives who treat their corporations like videogames, to be turned off and discarded when they get bored with them and have sucked enough money out of them. No one but the line workers give a darn about the customers, and no one at all gives a darn about the line workers.

I confess that I haven't read all 900 replies to the original post. Like many people I was attracted by the headline in this week's TR. Surely others have already said what I have to say. But it's worth saying again, because I don't want that Martian to have the slightest doubt as to where the problem lies. American workers have not changed much in the three generations I have observed, except insofar as they had to adapt to new working conditions, which include a steady loss of respect from their superiors, most of whom themselves no longer deserve the title "superior" except as a measure of the size of their paychecks.

L. Ron Hubbard is a pretty controversial source to be quoting in the trade press. And he's not exactly a contemporary of today's business leaders. Times really have changed. The Computer Revolution will turn civilization upside down and shake it like the Industrial Revolution did, only much faster and harder.

Accept without criticism the wisdom of your elders at your own peril. Very few truths are truly eternal. Even the Ten Commandments accepted slavery as unremarkable.

RknRIKid,

Unfortunate as this may sound, I believe you are 100% correct. A lot of the issues concerning security, fraud, and poor network design have not only come from a lack of skills, but a lack of initiative, laziness. To prove my point, in the past few years the attacks on companies such as Yahoo, Amazon, etc. have come from a lack of security. Basic analogy would be leaving for the night and not locking the doors to the building because you either don’t know or don’t care enough to know. Who would think of doing that? No one would, but again the lack of knowledge, fear of a layoff, etc. on both officers and engineers alike are creating scenarios like this all the time.
How will this cycle cease?
When businesses start employing leadership that truly understand the entire infrastructure of the corporation. Not just the physical realm (e.g. the office, the people, the money, etc) but also the virtual realm (e.g. the network architecture, connections, software, etc.).
Can we find them? Absolutely! Just need to search a little harder.
Great thread RknRIKid!!
JJ

Motto: Do the job correct the first time, or don’t do it all.

Professional bodies have been around for hundreds of years e.g. Royal College of Physicians (est. 1518)...

Take one that has been mentioned , The medical profession...

They have prety much ALWAYS had a specific regulatory body who vets all medics to ensure they have an exceptionally firm grasp on their subject.

The way they assure that a medic has the knowledge needed is to force them to do one of teh most demanding degrees available and then have them sit a viva where they can be questioned on **ANYTHING** related to medicine.

With your hand on your heart could any of you really sit for 3-5 hours and consistantly answer questions from ANY aspect of IT (even those you are not intending to ever work with) without referencing MSDN, Books, etc...?

That is what sets true 'PROFESSIONALS' from those who are simply workers!

Hi,

I agree 100% with all you have said. I am only 22, but have worked for ICL, Fujitsu, BT Syntegra, I am currently working for Phoenix IT, consulting for the Government with partners EDS and IBM. In other words, I have meet alot of so called professionals. Many of which are twice my age, the old saying "with age comes wisdom" is not always true. I find people who dismiss certifications as a waste of time, other have entry level certifications such as Microsoft MCP, MCSE and CCNA, yet will tell you how bad the industry is, EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE UNDER QUALIFIED AND EXPERIENCED to make such bold statements. Then, you have the GNU/Linux GURUs..... The one who hate everything apart from linux, showing a total lack of understanding of the industry.

The British Computer Society exists to offer some professional standards to its members, but again, the requirements are high to become a member, and therefore alot of the unskilled IT people will not even care about it.

I think you need the entire package, Experience, Certification, Professional Membership, Professional Training courses in non-certified specific areas (also soft skills), a degree would not go a miss (perhaps even in later life, if you wish to move into management).

And perhaps you need even more.....

Quote: "Technicial knowledge is not enough, one must trensend techniques, so the art becomes an artless form flowing form subconscious thought"

What does this all mean? It means we work in one of the most exciting industries where the opportunites are great and where you will find equals who will test your abilities and influence your thinking.

Ask yourself this:

"Is working in IT the only thing you have every wanted to do? Is IT the only thing you can every see yourself doing? Is your will set and only death can break it?

This is how strong I feel about where I need to be in this industry, and therefore, have doubt it can be achieved.

You said
""A professional produces more than expected. An amateur produces just enough to get by.

""A professional produces a high-quality product or service. An amateur produces medium-to-low quality product or service.

""A professional earns high pay. An amateur earns low pay and feels it?s unfair.

In my opinion if you focus on just those points, you are a professional. To get a high quality service or product takes all of those other points you stated.

A professional needs to be able to communicate in non technical terms to the worlds biggest dumb-arse, and not get impatient, or communicate that they are stupid.

I AGREE!

I got into the IT industry with no qualifications. I fronted up to a local company who were hiring "apprentices" and said "My Mum taught me to program in basic when I was eight, can I've a job?"

And after three weeks of daily calls, I got a job there and got shown "the ropes" and with a bit of initiative and all those things I wish I could hire today, I made it quite a decent and rewarding job.

The problem is I can't find people who want to make themselves an interesting job. And with labour hiring and firing laws the way they are, I can't sack a bludger.

Some interesting thoughts in your post DC_GUY. My biggest problem with the definition of a professional is that it seems to lean towards business man in a suit type professional. If two plumbers turn up to my house one driving a nice shiny new car the other a ute, one is in a suit and the other in greasy overalls - I know which one id pick. However the man in the suit probably looks more 'professional' to most people.

It's a pity that people can be so influenced by how someone looks. I don't believe that a suit is a guide to professionalism, I don't think a clean work place is either. Nor should a certification make you a professional - though that can be a grey area. Certification without any experience, in my opinion would mean you were not a professional.

I think the the IT industry is too young to have a proper definition for a professional within it.

A clean desk makes you professional?? I am doomed, I have to much work to have a clean desk. Leading on from that, a professional has their work completed and an amateur is surrounded by unfinished work ...... I always have unfinshed work, I always have more projects to complete. A professional earns high pay and an amateur low pay ... I'm not even sure how to respond to that.

Anyway I could go through the whole list. In my mind a professional should be ethical and have the mindset of a professional, thats all thats needed. The rest is just for impressing other people or gets in the way.

james

Professionals are made from an environment that fosters professionalism.

In an environment where lack of resources and planning from higher place cause greed, politics, and unethical activities to persist and be tolerated, in the name of survival of the fittest where the survival technique does not rely on professionalism, then anything goes.

Sadly, the people engaged in these unprofessional activities apply the same technique when they move to other places with similar deficiencies, and propagate the technique to other unsuspecting novices, who easily learn the techniques.

Unless the head of the company fosters professionalism, 'dirty pond is the result of dirty water from above.'

- couldn't agree more.
The ability to do the job is what keeps you in the industry. If you can't do the job you will soon find yourself "out the door".
If there are "unprofessionals" in the industry then why does management keep hiring them? It is their responsibility as managers to ensure they have competent people in their workplace. If management did their job screening out the rubbish then we wouldn't have incompetents/unprofessionals (the terms are interchangeable as far as I am concerned) in IT or any other profession, for that matter.
Certification? Why? You can demonstrate competency or you get sacked. If you get sacked for incompetence or unprofessional behaviour then you are going to get one glowing reference, aren't you. Your chances of being hired again? Not very good if the management at your next holiday home are doing their job.
It's quite simple, really. If EVERYONE in the chain does their job properly then these problems have a tendency to disappear.

I been tring to get in the IT Field for years. With a college degree A+ , CCNA and MSCA certification no company wants to hire me. I blame it all on the human resources directors. When you hire a IT persons the first thing they go to is HR. I will tell you a sterotical hr person. They are a recent college graduate that looks pretty. They remind you of a freaternity boy are sorcity chic. Anybody can BS HR and the HR person will be a complete idot on the IT world.
By the time they find out that this person does not know anything it is too late. The person has control of your network and it is almost impossible to fire them. On the issue of ethic I will not blame them on doing anything to keep there job and get hire salary. The reason the workforce got hardest not harder. Now aday anyone can get fire for saying a stupid statement that has no bearing or attack on someone personally. If manager can fire someone for seeming to have a negative attitude. So if they are attacking on there best intersect more power to them. But the only thing that I do not forgive IT personal is having the integrity that they don't know what is happening. The reason why new technology requires bus to be workout and sometimes they cannot predict the possible that will happen. Maybe it is unrealizitic expecation put by management. Better yet management does understand or comphrend what it is like to be in there shoes. My best advice to you is to control these persons who are acting like this is to remind them they can be replace anytime if they don't pull any of these studs. Also you should provide a security persoanl to make sure they don't

Angryworker

Sounds to me like the management from Dilbert. It is impossible really to fully implement all the little analogy tidbits. Really, honestly, how many IT professionals do you know that have a clean work environment? How many professionals period do you know that have one, that arent obssesive compulsive? The notion that a IT professional, who is basically specialized into his or her field, must know EVERYTHING is just dumb. IT personnel who deal with ISS dont have time to be meddling with lower IT related tasks. Theyre busy defending against hackers and viruses. You cant expect a data base manager to be pouring over the countless Internet security manuals because it will affect his productivity in his specialized job. The Windows 98 example is just stupid, if you buy a product, why must you buy it AGAIN if you loose a simple key? Why doesnt microsoft give you a way to gain your key? Hell they dont even release updates for Windows 98 anyways, its OLD. Piracy is a big issue, and it will continue to be so, BUT as long as Managers and CEOs etc demand results without shelling out the $$$ for the necessary equiptment, you will have piracy. In the here and now, what is preferable? That you complete the task and the company lives for another 2-3 months, or that you dont, and the company goes under? Get back to your desk manager dood and go back to sleep. Let the "professionals" deal with the issues while you sit back and reap the rewards.

A professional does not let mistakes slide by. An amateur ignores or hides mistakes.
I work for a four star hotel. Where I am a professinal. I witness my amateur minimum wage employees doing their jobs in the most professinal way. When they make mistakes they fess up for the most part. Where as several of my co-managers make changes to policy and it does not work they do not look for how to fix it. They instead blame they employees responsible for trying to implement bad policy.

NOT HAPPENING WITH YOU I SEE

By your definition any "professional" can be called an amateur. Its impossible to be the way you would like an IT person to be without them being a robot. Piracy only exists because of a market shortfall in regards to customer service. Managers have the inate ability to ask for more then they are willing to provide for. The windows 98 CD key shouldnt even be a issue if they had great customer service. The individual would be able to go to Microsoft and ask for the CD key while showing his proof of purchase. Well, in the real world, he would be DENIED.

Certs are a shortcut for amateurs who can't be bothered to get even a BS degree. It used to be all IT professionals had to have some kind of college degree.
You shouldn't need to even worry about certs. I hope you have never been turned down for a job because your PhD wasn't enough!
Of course there is always the "Over Qualified" turn down. I never understood that one, "I'm sorry, we can't hire you because you know too much". But I digress...

Either he hasn't enough to do or can only do one thing at a time, or he is an anal retentive. I have always been able to chop back and forth between projects, keeping tabs on subordinates, looking at new stuff and doing some forward planning without a qualm about the sae of files on my desk. Where I work is my space and I know it well. Over many years I have churned out high quality work and now in semi retirement I can say that having a tidy desk was never a worthwhile priority for me. Sure, at the end of a project the bumf all had to be cleared away, but there was always plenty more to take its place. Nowadays as a part time consultant I can easily relate to a messy desk, but am on my guard against a shiny spotless desktop. Clutter is often a sign of intelligence at work. Results count appearances don't.

Do not get me wrong. All of your statements are correct. But one thing you did not notice in all of your statements. You forced yourself thinking inside the box. That is why I called you and amateur.

Have you really read what you wrote? The analogy? Or did you just copied and pasted it? There are those who have certs, docs to back them up. But do you think most of them are professionals. Can they really be called proffesionals?

If you are the CEO, you should not have that job. You dont trust those who are under you.

Think outside the box, man! The book is good, but you need also a good brain and heart to do so.

It hurts? It should be. Hmmm. Ethics.

I did not mean to hurt you man. But you see, there is something a miss in what you have posted.

To make this short, see the big picture, or the bigger picture even.

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with this idea of the users bearing responsibility for being trainable, unless you are talking about educating technical users. If that is the context of your comment, then I agree wholeheartedly with you (I have 18 years' experience training Telecom customers' engineers and NOTHING bothered me more than trainees who obviously were enjoying the break from their duties instead of applying themselves to the topics at hand).

But if you are talking about the average home computer user, then they don't want to hear about it, they just want to pay you to fix it so they can surf the web and email.

No matter how qualified we may be or how technically complicated things become, we are still working in what is essentially a service industry. Our job is to apply the expertise we have to provide the solutions to our customers' or employers' problems in the best way we can.

Throughout this discussion and others I have followed, I agree that there are few standards to define our working habits, and I agree with those that say petty things such as neat desks and wearing a suit or not don't matter. Getting the job does.

But ethical behaviour in those areas you control directly, courteous relations with customers, keeping your certifications updated and/or staying abreast of current trends and technological advancements seem to me to be the things that define professionalism.

If we are not willing to give of our time to provide this level of service, then we have no business calling ourselves professionals. It isn't about the money, it's about the knowledge, the effort and the respect this will bring you that separate the true pros from the rest.

This guy is an arse and has no idea what he is talking about

I have been steadily employed in either Telecoms or IT for the past 36 years (Gotcha - Ha! I am a charter member of the 'Old Fart's CLub') in Europe, the USA, Middle East, and Asia (presently in Tokyo) and agree with all you have to say. Rules are not what is needed, attention to detail and giving the best you can is what the 'young Turks' in IT need to have pounded into their whiny 'Me First' heads.

Whatever happened plain old work ethics?

My father was a carpenter's kid, and he never finished high school, but he told me from the time I even thought about having my first job that 'If you're going to take someone's money for working for them, then they deserve to receive the best job you can give them. Anything else is dishonest and a waste of time.'

Other than military telecom systems training and a Associate of Arts in Business Management (thought I would have my own business someday - didn't happen), I am self-educated in computer systems, hold no CERTs, and am always the one they come to when they want it done right. No special talent, just paying attention to details.

I see posting here all the time where so-called professionals can't spell right, saying they don't have time for that. (I may have a few spelling mistakes in here myself, your posting really made me want to sound off) If they don't have time, what the hell are they doing goofing around on these discussion boards? And why do half of the discussion replies descend to character attacks? Is that professional?

Let's just get back on track and do an honest job for what we're paid. Like the comedian George Carlin says, 'Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things'.

Okay, Ladies and Gentlemen - fire away!

Given that all of the posts to this thread deal with system administrators I say that a college degree has no relevance to this discussion. My college education in computer science did not, and should not, have included system and network administration My college curriculum included subjects relevant to writing computer programs. I learned about various data structures and the algorithms to manipulate those data structures. I learned about building logic circuits. I did not learn BIND/DNS or Appletalk or NetBEUI or designing a network topology, or anything relevant to system administration. College is excellent for what it does but it does not apply to computer support. If I were hiring a computer programmer I would want to see that the candidate was proficient in the skills that one generally would learn in college. If I were hiring a system administrator I would want to see those skills that one generally learns in technical school. The two careers have very different skill sets. I would not necessarily require formal education in a hiring candidate but I would include a skills assessment in the interview process.

In summary, college is excellent for what it does but it doesn't apply to everything and most emphatically it does not apply to system support.

I was answering to the idea that all of american companies are unethical.

I tried HARD to point out that like elsewhere in the world there are SOME bad people.

But everyone isn't that way. There are a lot of good, hard working people here (I like to think of myself as one of those)

I haven't heard of american corporations assassinating head of states and freezing the assets of the citizens, so it would be hard for me to answer that. Please site your source and I would add that company to a list that I wouldn't purchase from.

Just saying that if you feel a company isn't doing business in a manner you aprove of, don't work there and don't use there products.

If a company isn't breaking the law, the missed business of people going to the compition is the only way to get them to change.

I am one of those, yes. Is that a bad thing? Aren't you one of those?

And yes, I feel I work in an ethical manner as well as the company I am with or I wouldn't be there.

Now, did you have a question or observation?

...a couple of years ago I sent my husband to the computer store to get a piece of hardware for our home computer. I had researched everything to know exactly what would work on the configuration we had. My husband asked the clerk for it, who gave it to him and then asked him what kind of computer he had. My husband told him, at which the clerk (get this) LAUGHED at him and told him he needed to get a new computer to even run the piece of hardware. My husband calmly handed the box back to the clerk, told him he not only lost this sale but we were considering buying 4 others as well (the total sale would have been well over $1000) and would take his business elsewhere. The store manager literally chased him down when he left the store and asked him to come back. My husband (god bless him) told the manager that he would not shop at a place with such poor service again, and since his wife was in th4e industry this could wind up costing their store 1000s of sales. We haven't been back. Respond to poor customer service with the right response, and eventually, it will hit them where it counts...

But how many of us have had to respond to a written request for help, and RFP, or other thing - ability to analyze and appropriately assess the written memo/request is critical in this field.

- after 20 years, I'm still learning. Some guys think they can be consultants or specialists after 5 years in a specific field/OS/discipline. Think again.

Spot On. All it takes is one service pack or version changes and voila, it's all gone to hell!

myndkrime, jdclyde & GaijinIT, It was a breath of fresh air for me to see their is still some pride out there. I appreciated that you agreed with me!
Yes GaijinIT, you got me in the years of service-HA. I really liked your response and especially the last sentence had me crackin up! Thanks to the others that agreed with me too.
Did you catch some of the comments further down the list after our responses? Some missed the point all together - one mentioned paragraph breaks. Come on, We are all trying to make a point here and we are not getting ready to take an English Test here. In all respect, one mentioned that there desk might be too small and had too much work to hold it. Never heard of a card table I take it. It will do until you catch up or was that an excuse. Not being somewhat organized reflects in all aspects of your job. At least once a week clear the crap. You'll have less stress trying to find an item. Boss will be pleased and you'll remind yourself of a job you forgot to do when you find it under the pile. To be continued!

Just out of interest, what was the sponsoring party's (manager/board/ceo) view of this failure to function?

If it goes with my experience either no comment was made and the company happily vented 2 months of cash or you got blamed for it 'cos the IS system could not support the demands of the application!

We are always gonna have this all the time that people like your guy are belived to be knowledgeable and allowed to continue with no business case or stagegate reviews etc. Feel free to vent 'cos I ain't seeing it getting any better soon :(

Yes I CAN read. I'm even potty trained. How about you?

A messy desk is not an indicator of unethical behavior. Sometimes it's just a person with a small desk and alot of work.

I have solved the desk problem. I no longer own a desk. I have pushed it out, and it has been reallocated. If I repair a computer, I do it on the site of the failed equipment. I have some shelves. And if I have to do paperwork, I sit infront of a PC, type it then print it. It goes in to a folder, and is put on a shelf.

My New Desk has a 15" CRT Monitor, an old Celeron 466 in a desktop case, barely enough room for a keyboard and mouse, and a KVM switch. It is about the same size a folding desk that is used in University Examinations.

No Desk = No Mess therefore Professional by most peoples standard.

a lot of people missed. The question is NOT whether business, your own CEO or legal counsel, or anyone else is a professional. The question is a personal one, and applies across industries. Do you live your life with pride in what you do AND how you accomplish it? Could you say to your children/grandchildren "this is what I do, how I do it" with pride and want them to follow your example? The problem today is that society glorifies the people who don't - just look at any "reality" show - how many of the "honest" people are lasting? Or look at the front page headlines - which seldom feature a Mother Theresa these days. Living your life ethically and honestly (and yes, that means you don't litter or run red lights - I often wonder what THESE people say to their children in the car) doesn't get you the headlines. But it does leave a legacy to be remembered, if only on a small scale. It's easy to point fingers and say the CEO doesn't do this, "I'm in a gray area" or "I'm just breaking one little law which doesn't make sense anyway." I often think of the saying "When presented with two paths, take that which is harder. Most often, it is the right thing to do."

I agree with you completely, I know a friend of mine that simply has a electronics degree, and yes, he did get some certifications, but he does not need them. He has over 20 years of network experience, runs a ISP, Hosts servers for various hospitals and agencies and provides a computer repair operation. Sure certs are great but they do not have the ability to compete with experience. I myself am new to the field, and when I just recently graduated with my associates in computer network systems, the first thing I saw was that I knew nothing. My friend and I talked about various IT related things and I found out how inexperienced I was. I am grateful that he helped me re open my eyes, I thought I had a decent grasp when in reality all I had was a unstable foothold.

A very good article indeed; however the IT field is very unique and therefore cannot be regualted like any other business sector. This is a field where if you do not know your stuff millions of dollars is lost and there is no way to plan to get around it(until after a resolution is done). When a server goes down; there are no clinical studies that resolves the issue; because in this field it is case by case. If there is any mistakes in a programmers source code, there is no study that shows where the problem is and what the resolution is. Ethics; the idea of IT was founded by those those so called unethical poeple you talk about (can you say hackers, hell the whole damn windows platform was hacked by the richest man in America). So instead of bashing the field embrace it. There are many of us out here who are underpaid why? Because we are victims to the time. IT professionals are by far the most abused and overlooked people since firemen and police.
As far as the education is concerned, in many cases the so called educated IT pro's have a decent grasp of theory in and this profession you need to sometimes think outside the box, and in most case theory does not. How many Harvard grads in the IT field you know that has done anything innovative in the IT field fresh out of college? So where would you start; regulalte the IT industry? Start over? What about people who are here now? And as the licensing issue goes; I am willing to bet that 80% of all businesses in the US are not in compliance 100% of the time all the time. Does that make them unethical? In many cases the software in which we use today a spin off' s ... I could go on forever about this but face the IT industry is all business sectors rolled into one; it cannot be successfully regulated. As far as being profeesionals; those who are getting paid to do a job ina specific field is a "professional" . Furthermore, the IT field cannot and should not be compared to any occupation that deals with lives. IT revolves around making people's lives easier; it is a field in which people invest in to make things easy; and alot of that deals with unethical behavior, so go figure... I do have an education (Master, Computer Science) But there was NOTHING that helped me more the REAL WORLD EXPIRIENCE) something the book cannot ever teach you....

Because where I am, people in the IT department (of which I am a manager) ALWAYS asks the other departments how they work and how IT can best support them.

For example, we know our Accounting department is done with their end-of-month processing because they tell us when they are done. No guess-work, no CYA needed. And no busy work (what you called "going through the motions of doing their job"); we are all too busy doing actual productive work.

JDClyde,
Thanks (and greetings!).

My comments were about American business, because the author seemed to be commenting about American IT.

Are businesses in other nations clean? Probably not. But before we go to them preaching reformation, it may help if we reformed ourselves. Part of that reformation is business having the courage to admit that much of the problem is its own creation.

Here are some things that business could do.
1. Stop the focus on the next quarter. Shareholders interests can be maintained even with a 1-year focus.

2. Stop the confrontration with the employees. Outsource, if you have to, but only as a long term strategy - not to show profits next quarter.

3. Stop being a silent spectator to the unethical behavior of fellow business or businessmen.

Is that too much to ask?

NOTE: Look at the lines preceding the one you quoted. "..and Japan could not retain its isolation policy without risking war.". Funny thing, that almost sounded like the erstwhile USSR, which maintained that it was maintaining peace in Eastern Europe with tanks and guns.

Making sure all the workers get paid twice what the market would normally support so the goods produced by them cost more.

...the original author said "based on written tests" - If he meant "based solely on written tests" my reply would have been different.

...I don't check all of a posters other posts before responding to a comment.

Since the vast majority of certs ARE "solely" based on written exams, and the weaknesses of relying "solely" on written exams are what we are talking about, I'm curious as to how your answer would have been different if you had understood "solely."