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Ever just 'had' it with your boss?

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by shellbot 1 view

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Its one thing to have a boss who is willing to learn and ask questions..its another thing to have one who assumes that when you work with "technology" the computer actually does the work.

Since my boss left a few months ago, i now report to a higher up director. She makes no effort to consider what my job actually involves.

So after a few times of her asking me to "find the time" to start documenting the database which she she had "previously mentioned", i got a bit annoyed...

Then i overheard her say to one of her peers that if i drop everything i should be able to get it done by the end of the week.

Hmm..yes..i'll get right on that mam. Thought.."right then, if you know so much..lets just show you soemthing"

Soooooo..downloaded Visio (great little tool by the way..its my new friend)..reverse engineered the database..created DB Diagram showing all linked tables, reference tables..etc etc..(you get the picture)

Then, i printed the whole diagram..(database has over 150 tables)..spent the afternoon taping the individual sheets together and then hung the thing on the wall. It takes up almost 1 entire wall of the office.

When she walked in later and exclaimed "mother of..what is that". I said, thats the database. In order to document it, i need to visualise it, because there are too many tables to remeber in my head. Now what i have to do is document each table and all items within the table, all relationships between the tables, etc etc..I think i lost her at Data Types...

Before she escaped me, i told her that as long as nothing else major got in the way, i should have the guts of it done by end of Oct..

Maybe i was a bit over the top..but i had to show her somehow that the pc does not actually do my work for me..

ANyone else ever had to "show" the boss what it actually takes to get the job done? ANy tips?

112 replies

by jamesrl

My previous boss attended a meeting where one of her peers (Director level) stated that they were waiting on a document from us. She was suprised because I had stated that we had completed a draft and sent it out for review.

She called me - I was travelling - and proceeded to just crucify me, because she felt embarassed and uninformed. I felt so low - she really laid it into me.

I tried to explain the scenario to her but she was too angry to listen. After I hung up I took a long walk to cool off and contemplate things.

At the time, I had been in the job for 6 months and the job market sucked, so I decided to stick it out.

I did give her a little more detail as to exactly where we were - what was completed, what was waiting for feedback and who we were waiting on (people who worked for the director who started the whole thing, of course). I tried to explain - after we both had calmed down, next day - what the process was.

I did repair the relationship with the boss, and she was moved into another area. Now I have a boss a little more in tune with what I do and one who pushes me to do more. And my old boss still calls me into her office and asks me how its going - she considers me a friend.

One of the important questions to ask when given a task like that is why? Who is the audience? What level of detail do they need? What purpose does it serve? That will help you decide what kind of document you produce and how soon you should produce it.

There are always things that need documenting. Understanding what the relative importance of the task is key.

Hope that helps.

James

by dr_zinj

IT people stereotypically fail to cultivate the social aspects of the business environment. And it's arguably the most important part in that it enables everything else to be accomplished.

I applaud your taking the time to get over the emotional part and go back and rationally explain the situation to the 'oblivious' boss. Instead of an adversary for life, you now have a 'true beleiver' who is willing and eager to support you.

I'd call that a Win-Win situation.

by jamesrl

Even though we are now on different teams, we still need to be able to work together and rely on each other.

I had to learn her strengths and failures and that she, like all of us is human.

James

by w2ktechman

I had a boss (in a small company) to whom, in his words, wanted me to do things on my own with little help. Then he had daily meetings in which I would detail everything that I worked on, and how/what I did to resolve. It was annoying, because I was ALWAYS wrong. So, he decided that I had to check with him before doing anything. Then when I did, I was not taking initiative, and should be able to do it on my own without checking. The circle went around like that for about 3 months. Then he decided to fire me because I never did 1 thing right the entire time I was there.
I was sooo releived when he took me to HR and told me I was being let go. It wasnt for another hour, on my way home when I realized that I needed to start looking for a job again (I hate that).
Funny thing, 2 weeks with my replacement, I was called and asked if I wanted to come back as the new guy was worse than me..... Guess what I told him?

I moved on and havent wanted to be in a similar situation since.

by too old for it

I had a boss (SCO-UNIX guy) Who micro-managed everything. God forbid you come up with a new idea (like Dreamweaver to replace vi as a web page editor). His stock response? "Why would anyone want to do that??" which of course was code for "I don't want to learn anything new/do anything besides code in C using vi."

Take junk burned out parts to the trash? You were stealing from the company. Use a trashbag in a trashcan? You were stealing from the company.

I think he took it as a personal insult when my cardiologist said I wasn't having a massive heart attack, just workplace stress. Maybe using the health plan was stealing from the company as well.

by nicknielsen

I had a boss in the Air Force who was a "hands-on" manager. He was the Ops Superintendent, I was the Logistics NCO. He required a "daily summary" each morning: a comprehensive plan, with justification for each action, of everything I and my subordinates would do that day. He also wanted periodic updates during the day to ensure we were adhering to the plan.

He once told me my management style was deficient because I assigned tasks to my subordinates without providing precise instructions for completing those tasks. I also had to ask my people [u]exactly[/u] what they were doing when he wanted information. He would ask "What's Bill working on?" and I would reply "We've got a broken radio; he's checking this function." "No, what module is he working on in the radio? Are you sure it's what is broken?"

We finally figured out that if we overloaded him with information, he would take it for about 5 minutes, then just walk away. He got promoted by default (small career field, only eligible) and, I think, divorced at about the same time. The promotion, thankfully, got him reassigned.

Edit: fix bad tag

by w2ktechman

I had a manager (prefer this term instead of boss), that was pretty lenient. But, we were a contracting agency for a large corp. Usually, the corp would not be too bad to work for, but whenever something big was going on (like a virus) they would micro manage the crap out of us. 2-3 times a day for an update, I had to know who was working on what any time they called. They wanted specifics, like what computer/server was being fixed, what the progress of it was, who managed the computer/server (a lot were under the desk servers), etc., etc..
I could not do anything except keep tabs on people, and we had less productivity because of it. Not only that, the entire 14 person staff was totally stressed until the problem(s) were resolved.
Sometimes, when the wrong person is in charge, they hinder everything. I guess by definition that these managers retard everything, or are retarded/retarding.

by techexec2

[i]"She makes no effort to consider what my job actually involves."[/i]

[i]"...few times of her asking me to "find the time" to start documenting the database which she she had "previously mentioned"..."[/i]

[i]"i overheard her say to one of her peers that if i drop everything i should be able to get it done by the end of the week."[/i]

Straight talk...Ready?

This is evidence that she is Irish (surname O'Blivious) and/or just doesn't CARE (likely). She flies above the details, doesn't understand the details, and will resist all attempts to be drawn into the details. And, she is openly questioning your competence. :0 BIG red flag. This is how managers like her deal with things, even when it is untrue (and this is not a gender thing in any way).

I've seen this kind of thing many times before. It is very common in middle and senior IT managers. I suggest you just do your best to try to give her what she is asking for (what, and when). And, stop trying to give her information that she does not want and will not understand. You are only hurting yourself by doing so. No amount of explaining and justifying is going to bring her around.

It was clever and smart of you to illuminate the size of the task using Visio (GREAT tool). But, I think you need to try to be more subtle about it. If you illuminate it too brightly, you are also showing how little she knows about things and that threatens her.

Do you think I am close? You're the best judge of this. I'm just a guy on a keyboard thousands of miles away. :-)

I'll be happy to expand on this with you if you like. I've got a lot of stories that I could tell about this kind of thing. Just let me know.

Good luck.

by jdclyde

TE2, I have to disagree.

If the manager does not understand what they are not asking for, they will continue to complain that Shell has not provided this "simple little thing".

You give them what they want and need when possible, but when they ask for the impossible, they must be made aware of EXACTLY what it will take to give them what they want AND WHY.

Now I want that index of the internet on my desk by the end of the week. :p

by techexec2

Maybe... We'll see what Shell says. None of us can judge this very well from here. It's up to Shell to process this (and she will do just fine).

I see a lot of red flags in Shell's post.

But, I could be completely wrong! (and it will be -1 point Tech!) :-)

by nicknielsen

the storage system you asked for. You know, the one we're going to store the Internet on locally so we don't lose it if the ISP goes down? I can't get the index if we don't have that system... :D

by shellbot

I've pretty much realised all you've said.

Background: My position
I do Database support/ administration / small bit of development / report generation / statistical analysis / technical analysis / etc etc..
I am NOT in the IT dept tho, our IT consists of 3 hardware/network staff. I am in the Research dept (think academics/ education/ policy, not IT dev)
Reason I am not in IT is because the database was the brainchild of the Research dept. They paid for it and pay my wages. They refuse to hand it over to IT because they want to "own" it and the information that comes out of it.

In the year and a half i've been here, i have had 3 different managers. Half the problem is, they are academics, not IT people, and they can't handle dealing with the database. All along it has been left up to me to get the job done and let them know of any problems. They have all been brilliant and fought the fight for me..whether it was software, hardware, money for more development..etc. They appreciated that i know what i need to do and get on with it and frankly, they were terrified of the work they seen me doing and didn't even want to know. However, they appreciated how hard i worked and my attempts to include them by using the least amount of tech jargon i could.

Now since the last one left, they finally realised that these academics cannot handle being my manager due to the technical knowledge needed. In May they said they were going to hire a "Database Manager" (which i could apply for), and asked ME to write the job spec for it. They have yet to even put the spec out yet.

So, basically, the director of the Research dept is my superior by default. This woman cannot work her email or remember where she saved a file to..never mind understand a database.
I have done and continue to do more than is required of me. To be honest, if i stuck to my job spec, I'd have a lot more time for TR, but i continually tweak, fix, and improve and have to do massive amounts of data maintenace & reporting due to the sh1tty job the developers did on the application.

As for documenting the database, i am doing it because we have NO documentaion. Yes, you heard me..none..well, ok, i found an original mock up for 3 screens which look nothing like they started out as, and a list of available option within our hundreds of drop down lists, and a list of the reports we requested be set up. They commissioned, implemented and signed off on the thing before they hired me. All i have for reference is a binder full of emails which make references to "oh we changed our mind, we now want this to be like this".
So i need to document the entire thing..i have most of it stored up in my head, but i cannot always be here (and don't plan on being here too much longer..once i get my MCAD i am gone).
When i was off this summer for a while, they realised that no one in the place has a clue about this stuff. They actually went to IT and asked them to do some work on it, they laughed at them. My boss does not understand technology at all. Surely if one is in IT, they must know how to work with the database.

So basically, she asked me to do this, after I recamended that i do it (yes she reads my recamendations, then puts that into her work for her boss; makes it look like she knows what she's on about, and then comes to me and tells me what i should do next.) I don't have a problem doing what i am asked, but when i'm working flat out, i just do not physically have the time to do more. I asked for a part time admin assistant ages ago..they were gonna think about it..which means no..
She expects me to have it done in like 4 days..she once made the comment of "well sure, all you have to do is tell the computer what it has to do and let it do its job"..

Grrr..how do i tell someone like that, that it takes me 3-5 days to write a stored procedure for a complex report when all they want to see is the button they click to see that report..it only takes 4 seconds for it to be displayed, so surely it only takes me 4 seconds to create it??

I would never deliberatley try to make anyone look silly because they don't know something..i completely understand that this is not her area. I don't understand the work she does, BUT i do try and make the effort to appreciate what she has to do to get her work done. All i want is a bit of professionalism.

I was so p1ssed the other day i almost did walk out..as i have been without a contract since August, i thought feck it..why bother..

BTW..she is Irish :)

by techexec2

I think you are being very smart. (just a statement, not a compliment)

Your boss is not an incompetent/insecure IT person, she is not an IT person at all! And, she doesn't report in an IT department. This changes everything. Your boss is essentially your user/client/customer.

I can see why you chose to go a little over the top with the Visio diagrams. That was a good move. What these researchers need is to better understand how the database works, how it was built, what it takes to modify it, etc. Carry on. Carry on. MORE Visio diagrams.

Sounds like the Database Manager job could easily be yours if you want it. It would be a very different role from what you have been doing. You would be the liaison with these academic people for your replacements (there should be more than one, but you know that). You would be teacher, explainer, interpreter, comforter to these academics. But, this is a dangerous role. Since you are doing this for the customer who is also the boss, when they don't like your answer, the boss part just puts DIRECT pressure on. And, this is a big red flag: [i]"In the year and a half i've been here, i have had 3 different managers."[/i]

This manager job is a great opportunity to anyone who desires it to fill it. [ it's too bad that great pain seems to often accompany great opportunity! :^0 ]

-----

[i]"So basically, she asked me to do this, after I recamended that i do it (yes she reads my recamendations, then puts that into her work for her boss; makes it look like she knows what she's on about, and then comes to me and tells me what i should do next.)"[/i]

I really don't understand why THIS is frustrating. :^0

It is VERY bad that she plays games like this. She is essentially lying. And, she will work hard to perpetuate this illusion at all costs. Not a good person to work near, let alone for. I've worked for someone just like this, more than once.

Of course, this illusion is essential for this non-IT group to own a tiny IT database department of their own. She must project this illusion of control to her bosses. This will not change.

-----

[i]"...she once made the comment of "well sure, all you have to do is tell the computer what it has to do and let it do its job".. Grrr..how do i tell someone like that, that it takes me 3-5 days to write a stored procedure for a complex report..."[/i]

You're already doing the right thing. Being frustrated with this is part of the job.

-----

I think you already know all of this and are completely on top of your situation. Sharp! Good luck Shell!

by hal 9000

But then again I used to play with the Big Iron when I was at Uni [i]It was the only way to get any computer time when you where not the Professors Preferred Students[/i] :(

It's amazing what you can get away with when you work with Academics and Bureaucrats, back in those days we had a 12 frame Main Frame unit and a few of us assembled another frame together out of spare parts so we had some Computer time available at reasonable hours and not the 2.00 AM every morning that we where allocated. Of course we allowed the frame to be used during peek processing times as required we just had a direct terminal to it so we could do what work we needed to do. Apparently for 8 years that I was there the Academics walked in at least once a year counted 13 Frames during the stock take and signed off on the equipment there without a second thought. We only got caught as we where dismantling the thing and returning the parts to stock and that made them very unhappy. :D

As you sound as if you have the [b]Bull by the Horns[/b] and have things going the way that you need them to go. But of course you realise that the actual documentation will take longer to write out than the actual development of the DBase don't you? It will also be a full time job that will not allow you to repair or rewrite any code or improve the existing system or the report and rest of the documentation will be outdated and useless. Sounds as if you have a job for life to me I just hope that they are paying you well as you don't need all the aggravation that comes with people like this. But I can not help but laugh at them as they are always good for a laugh.

At one place that I worked I ran the Computer Section and security was really tight we could take any storage device into the base but where not allowed to remove it once it had entered the base. Obviously the person who wrote the security procedures had absolutely no idea as I had unlimited access to the then high speed Modems the fastest type available and I could send anything that I wanted out of the base without a second thought and nothing that was transmitted was checked [b]officially![/b] But what made it even funnier was I could remove as much printed paper as I liked so if I wanted to print anything off I could and just walk out of the base with it generally tied up in a ribbon and on a cart no one gave it a second thought. I would have at the very least asked why are you walking out with a 3 foot high run of fan fold paper but apparently this wasn't a security issue so it was never considered as important.

If you like the work and can stick it out you're welcome to it personally I had to walk well actually [b]RUN[/b] away from it as I was going crazy attempting to save them money and keeping the place secure. I had to fight to get a paper shredder in the main computer room and that was a hard fight a $200.00 paper shredder but a 20 Million $ piece of hardware was easy. I just had to tell them that I wanted such & such and there where no questions asked then I made the mistake of asking for a paper shredder and spent 6 weeks filling out requisitions for one. If I was half way smart I would have got several thrown in with a hardware delivery and just billed as hardware security devices and there would have been no questions asked.

Anyway if you want ways of annoying this type of person I'm the guy to help you out, I can do this without trying and what's worse is when I'm trying to be helpful to them I alienate them and I don't even say things in a [b][Smart A$$ way[/b] :(

What's worse is that every suggestion that I made when I did Government work has had to eventually be done. Currently here the AU Government is now in the process of rolling out their own Fibre Optic Cable AU Wide it's only going to take about 5 years and cost in excess of 40 Billion but for about 4 Million 10 years ago they could have had the same thing and only paid for the raw materials as the other companies where rolling out the optical fibre and another run in the same trench would have cost next to nothing. Now they have to survey a new route for the cable as they are unable to dig within .5 of a kilometre of where the cable is supposed to be apparently the original records where not too accurate, and as the heavy equipment is no longer available they have to import the stuff into the country and then when the Tenderer has finished the job it will be sold off internationally again so while they can do small runs with whats available locally if anything large has to happen they'll need new equipment to do the job. :D

Col

by kiltie

You have an ideal opportunity:

Write the spec for a DBM, define it how you would like to do it, or how it should be done, your choice, only you know the details, and submit it to a few levels up, bypassing immediate management.

but document, document, document.....

Then apply for it.

If it works out you will have an ideal job (if you wrote the spec yourself) or leave a good legacy for any successor to your previous function.

If it doesn't work out, you have at least the Certs you are taking, and move on.... sounds like you are thinking about this anyway.

Good luck!!!!

by jdclyde

My boss is from the old school of working on a unix server, programming in cobol. He is good at what he does.

He is HORRIBLE when it comes to setting up a new system because he can't get it in his head how terrible Windows is with resources and how our server from a few years back had 128M of ram on a PentiumPro200 and it fed 100 users, and now to run a XP system with email and a spreadsheet you need 512?

I had to have the user that was crashing (all the time with a P4 3GHz) with all of her applications she NEEDS open at the same time, all day long her stats. She had 256M Ram, but the on-board video was leaching 64M so she is down to 198M available for the system. With her applications open, she was using about 320M of memory. (could that be a problem?)

I dropped another 512 in and you should see that system scream. It can do a complete reboot faster than my system can just shutdown! :(

by jmgarvin

She was a moron. I explained some server issues and explained that I needed to dip into the general fund for about $500 for the hardware and software upgrade (chump change).

My boss was on board and understood that:
A) I knew what I was talking about
B) I was trying to be proactive
C) There was a real issues that needed to be resolved.

My boss set up a meeting with the "big" boss and away we went. I went in with charts, graphs, and non-technical explanations of things so that she would get on board. At the end of the meeting I was asked, "Do we really need this?"

I explained again WHY this was critical and that if we didn't do this we most probably experience downtime as I would have to use bubble gum and bailing wire. The big boss then had the nerve to tell me, "A professional IT person would be able to do without, why can't you."

At that point I went off. I not only told her that I'm taking her job, but I told her that she was an idiot and left. I walked straight to her boss and explained the issue....I got the funding times 10. The big boss wouldn't deal with me after that and just gave me what I needed.

I think she was fired later, but I was gone by then.

* Edit to include:
DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME. This is a BAD idea if you are afraid to lose your job. I was pissed and reacted without thinking. While it worked out well, I've been "reduced" because I'm "hard to work with" sometimes. I just don't take to stupidity and have little time to deal with it.

I know it's part of the workforce, but stupid people should be punished for being stupid.

by jamesrl

If she spent her time dealing with $500 issues, then she was clearly not spending enough time on the important stuff.

I've used my credit card to buy something from Tigerdirect to help one of my staff help a struggling customer. We have no way to bill the customer for it as it doesn't have a catalogue number, but we just do it, because we want to salvage the relatiohsip with the customer.

To me if a staff member had said "reduce downtime" thats all I would need to hear. If I went to my boss about $500 to reduce downtime he would laugh and tell me to do my eff'ing job and not bother him about it.

I do hold people accountable for making good decisions and I don't expect to hold my teams hand in making them. I don't expect they wont make a mistake or two, but as long as they learn, I am ok with that.

James

by jmgarvin

You are the kind of boss that makes IT work. We sometimes have to spend a little money or do something very quickly to keep things humming.

I HATE it when the higher ups try to manage every little purchase down to the last bolt. Just lemme friggin' buy what I need and everything will work out...

'Course I'm made my share of stupid decisions, but if you take ownership of that and FIX IT, then I honestly don't see a problem...

So, I think the larger question is:
Why aren't more managers like you James?

by nicknielsen

He has told me that if I need to purchase small parts or tools to get the job done, don't ask questions, just do it and let him know afterwards. Equipment, thankfully is not our responsibility, but the client's.

In most such cases, the purchases are low cost (less than $10 US). They are usually for telecom/data hardware (plugs or jacks) when I run out, items whose use is not anticipated, or broken tools. Some examples include resistors (to terminate a serial network), cable ties, drill bits, RJ-11 and RJ-45 jacks, attaching hardware (nut screws & bolts) and a new hole saw.

Edit: Oh, and about 30 feet of flat satin cable per year. It's amazing how much damage can be done to a simple patch cable when it's out in plain sight.

by wicked_girl

But I cannot help but agree. Why is it that the morons are usually the ones in charge too? Oh yeah, they are the ones dumb enough to let the height of idiocy occur on a daily basis, as long as they can schmooz the higher ups and advance.

by jamesrl

but seriously, I learned from good managers. And I've had a few.

You have a budget. You know your issues. As long as you don't mess up totally, make your decisions and execute them. If you screw up, we will talk. You know I don't want to spend money extravegantly. You know I want problems fixed - just get 'er done. If your boss' boss has a problem, leave you out of it.

Few years back, I was a new manager with 30 staff and 2.5 million in budget. Of that I had $250K for equipment. I only had to defend it at budget time, or if I was going way over. Otherwise, hold me accountable for keeping things running.

Today, I have to sign for every purchase in my group, thats protocol. I rarely spend more than 30 secs on a decision. Hire the right people, or train them right, and you don't have to. Hire people you trust, or teach them the rules and train them.

My current job I have 9 senior staff, and no explicit budget. I know I share a budget line with all the other managers in Canada. Its all about common sense.

James

by hal 9000

You are just one of the people who are not constantly trembling in their shoes worried that one of your underlings is about to replace you in your job so you don't need to [b]Micro Manage[/b] them all. :p

Been there done that and walked away when the Bean Counters took charge as they messed everything up completely. And more importantly it didn't matter how much money they lost per year they still got a Bonus for stuffing up and then proceeded to cut costs read that as reduce staff members who made money and hire more staff who did nothing for the bottom line but lower it. :(

Col ]:)

by jamesrl

A good manager is training someone to replace them, else they can't be promoted. Thats part of being a good manager. It might not be out in the open.

I'm lucky. I have a decent senior management team that trusts me. So other than a few raised eyebrows on overtime(not mine, my staffs), and a few reviews of travel costs, I don't get a hard time about spending money on things I need to do my job.

James

by jamesrl

I usually have to tell one of my staff, who buys lots of CDRWs, batteries and office supplies to buy more. I tell him to buy enough so he won't have to do another purchase order for a while. It costs time and effort to process an expense and cut a check. So if its something you can store (safely), don't buy what you need for now, buy what you will need for a while.

If I couldn't trust a staff with 10$ purchases, then why would I have them working for me??

James

by nicknielsen

is that we are expected to be ready for any eventuality. My supervisor is in Atlanta, I live outside Columbia, SC, 180 miles away. I receive a regular parts delivery once a week. It can take up to 2 weeks or longer to replenish what I use.

To be honest, I don't usually expense anything except tools and larger purchases (bulk cable or connectors), simply because it's less hassle. If I spend $5 to keep a store up, I simply take a long break that day.

by hal 9000

If you can't trust your staff to spend a couple of Hundred $ when out on Site they shouldn't be working for you.

God a tank of fuel for one of the cars comes close to $100.00 now days. The one that I loved happened recently a unopened carton of CAT5E cable wasn't CAT5 cable but external 2 pair Telephone wire I had to wear the cost of that staff member buying retail locally and took it out on the wholesaler latter. :)

Col

by jamesrl

We spend thousands, tens of thousands, but being in a big corporation, there are rules. There is a per km mileage charge. Those driving old beaters do well on it. They can spend up to X$ a day on meals and no more.

I almost sent a tech 200 kms to buy some fibre connectors when the wrong ones were shipped. Luckily there was other work he could do while we waited for an express delivery.

I've had techs go to a retailler and buy print servers, on a Friday night.

My point was that instead of doing monthly orders for odds and sods, order enough for 2 or three months and save the paperwork and hassles of procesing the expense. But some people can't break that habit.

James

by shellbot

Even though i think most of these things myself..i often wonder if i am being too sensitive or nitpicky, so it is comforting to have someone else say them!

As for the Manager job..i don't think i want it. Not yet anyways. I've been a manager before in a more general admin office, its OK, but i don't have enough experience to manage someone like myself yet (wow..that sounds flaky).

Now to go bury myself in documentation...

by techexec2

Something else...

[i]"but i don't have enough experience to manage someone like myself yet"[/i]

Most first-time IT managers are a bit overwhelmed in their first IT management job. I didn't feel entirely qualified or entirely ready when I pursued and got my first one.

My first one was a HUGE jump. In my early twenties, I was in a situation that had some similarites to yours (and some differences). It was a traditional datacenter with a traditional management structure (operations and software departments reporting to datacenter manager who reported to business manager who also had sales and marketing teams). It was a small business unit (about 50 people) that was a part of a very large multinational corporation. I was a software engineer and there was a lot of chaos. After about 18 months on the job, and having had 3 software unit managers cycle through (sound familiar?), I went to the business manager and told him that even at my tender age I could do the job at least as well as the three guys who couldn't stand the heat. I got the job and a huge raise, and he made me report directly to him (big warning flag that I could not see clearly enough at the time...early twenties!). With it came my first "panic attack" (never heard of that before, happened only once) and a massive "education" in management politics from my much older "peer" managers (30+/40+/50+) who saw me as "lunch". I held my own! Overall, it was a HUGE positive growing/learning/career experience for me and I have never regretted it.

Based on what I see, you could quickly grow in to this management job if that path were your choice. But, it's strictly a personal choice, not right or wrong, not good or bad. It all depends on what YOU want. And, you must really WANT to be an IT manager in order to justify all of the headaches. BIG headaches.

Either way, I think you're sharp and on top of things. Good luck!

by jdclyde

Don't think of it as "manage someone like myself". What it would be is doing your existing job, NOT having to answer to this rotating id10t string, AND having your assistant to work WITH you, to help get things done.

And it really should have been taken out of that department a long time ago, from the sounds of it. Not to mention, like you pointed out, if IT is not a part of it, short of the hardware, they will not support it.

I have to do the same thing for some systems. I keep the hardware going, but if you have a problem USING the software, call the 1800 support line that comes with the package or send me off to Texas for training on the system.

Don't forget, primal scream therapy works wonders! :D Ranting and raving HERE to let off steam is also better than at the boss. We have already had the "dumb user" joke posts. Maybe it is time for the "dumb boss" jokes? ;\

When you have an "I hate my job" day, try this: On your way home from work, stop at the pharmacy, go to the thermometers section and purchase a rectal thermometer made by "Best Thermo". Be very sure you get this brand.

When you get home, lock your doors, draw the drapes, and disconnect the phone so you will not be disturbed during your therapy. Change to very comfortable clothing, such as a sweat suit and lie down on your bed. Open the package and remove the thermometer. Carefully place it on the bedside table so that it will not become chipped or broken.

Take out the material that comes with the thermometer and read it. You will notice that in small print there is a statement: "Every rectal thermometer made by Best Thermo is personally tested." Now close your eyes and repeat out loud five times: "I am so glad I do not work for quality control at the Best Thermo Company."

If a train station is where the train stops and a bus station is where the bus stops, what is a work station?

Boss, to four of his employees: "I'm really sorry, but I'm going to have to let one of you go."

Black employee: "I'm a protected minority."
Female employee: "And I'm a woman."
Oldest employee: "Fire me, buster, and I'll hit you with an age discrimination suit so fast it'll make your head spin."
They all turn to look at the helpless young, white, male employee, who thinks a moment, then responds: "I think I might be gay..."

Two women were comparing notes on the difficulties of running a small business.
"I started a new practice last year," the first one said. "I insist that each of my employees take at least a week off every three months."
"Why in the world would you do that?" the other asked.
She responded, "It's the best way I know of to learn which ones I can do without."

Summer is the time when it is too hot to do the jobs it was too cold to do in winter.

Employee's Ten Comandments

If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that you tried.
If you can't get your work done in the first 24 hours, work nights.
Experience is something you don't get until just after you need it.
For every action, there is an equal and opposite criticism.
Keep your boss's boss off your boss's back.
Success always occurs in private, and failure in full view.
To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism; to steal from many is research.
The sooner you fall behind, the more time you'll have to catch up.
Don't be irreplaceable, if you can't be replaced, you can't be promoted.
If you are good, you will be assigned all the work. If you are really good, you will get out of it.

[b]Hope that helped Shell! :x

by shellbot

as usual..you guys know best!

And to think I only joined TR to ask a question..(shame on me..wow that was ages ago)

For today I'm taking the easy way out..doubled up the dose of cold and flu med..i'm dying with my sinus's! (again)

Well, i'll reflect on all of this..i know i sell myself short a lot..I could probably do the manager position..not sure if i want the stress though..but i'll keep it in the maybe pile..

Off topic
JD..kid is going to visit dad for 2 weeks this month..so maybe i can relax a bit and maybe meet up with my old friend al cohol for a night or two :)

by w2ktechman

After reading about it I decided I didnt have to go purchase one and continue to follow the instructions
Thanks for sharing.

by jmgarvin

Hell, I was thrown into a PM position that I REALLY wasn't ready for. But, I found that managing a bunch of me's was pretty easy.

Why? I managed like *I* wanted to be managed and I worked my ass off in the trenches with my guys. Not only did I find out that being a PM was cool (it sucked too, but that's a different story), but I also found out that I could do the job.

You just gotta dive in and do it. If it isn't you, then who will it be?

by shellbot

like others have said, i'm doing the dang job anyways..just not getting paid for it and have no one to help me..

yes..if not me, then who..*shudders*

its definatley moving closer to the Yes pile

by shellbot

Sometimes, when the wrong person is in charge, they hinder everything. I guess by definition that these managers retard everything, or are retarded/retarding.

nice thought to keep in my head when the day has gone to Hades in a handbasket :)

edited for html tags gone mad

by tony hopkinson

I just tell them to get off my ****$%?^&^ back.

Not always mind sometimes I do have tactful moments.

One manager asked my why there wasn't any enthusiasm for a new flexible working pattern, which basically said we worked when they wanted us too, had days off when they wanted us to and then they'd pay the balance at the end of the year at normal rates (no overtime premium).

My response was that I didn't mind being flexible but I objected to having my head shoved up my arse.

Bosses are like kids they find the lines by stepping over them, it's our duty as good employees to educate them.

by shellbot

see..i think those kind of things..but i have to get REALLY mad to say them..

closest i got was slamming the boardroom door the other week when i walked out of a meeting.

I almost did'n't walk back in the next day..but you know..i'd be looking for my paycheck and there wouldn't be one type of thing..so did what i had to.

Surprisingly no one has said anything about it yet..weird..

by shellbot

But of course you realise that the actual documentation will take longer to write out than the actual development of the DBase don't you? It will also be a full time job that will not allow you to repair or rewrite any code or improve the existing system or the report and rest of the documentation will be outdated and useless

Need something though..they want it all,but i'll give em what i can.

Once i get my certs, i gonna fly the coop anyways. So as a courtesy to the person who comes after me, i'll document what i can, and all the little quirks that i've done workarounds for..otherwise they won't stay more than a week before thier head explodes :)

Its about as close to gov't as can get..an NGO.
Non Governmental Organization

A charity to be exact..

by hal 9000

He's a real BASTARD! I don't get any time off never get a sick day ever am constantly on call all the time and have no chance of promotion. :(

It's hell when you work for yourself and even worse when the staff treat you like a door mat and steal your play toys so they can look better or just enjoy driving one of my classic Merces. :p

Some semi retirement this turned out to be I'm now working far harder and longer than ever before and worse still I don't get to play with my Play Toys anywhere near as much as I would like to. Though to be fair no one is brave enough to even consider asking to look at the Ducati let alone take it for a ride. :D

But after last years Christmas party that my son attended I've been getting strange requests to finish off the VW. I think that someone been telling stories about that slow low performance car that gives me all of 8 miles to the gallon. But man it goes well. :^0

I've just been constantly telling them that I need some time off to finish it off but I'm getting some very strange requests now and currently I don't even know how it will perform with this motor in it. I'm actually a bit worried about putting the finishing touches on it as I'm slightly scared of how it will go. Besides the last motor gave me 8 miles to the gallon I expect far less from this one and I don't know just how drivable it's going to be. I've made a few improvements to the previous Best Engine Design that I had. But they are only slight changes. Honest! :)

Col

by hal 9000

They'll never understand though it's the right thing to do. I just love the way that they'll waste 2K to save 20 cents. They drive me crazy and are the main reason that I walked away from Big Business.

Though now I'm getting way to big for my own best interests. Why is it that I'm constantly getting referred new customers from the existing ones? It's just not fair I tell you. :)

As long as the staff don't go overboard I don't worry about the small things after all they are must have items always so why sweat the details when you have urgent work? But that carton of telephone cable was a nuisance to say the least and the tech involved was piratically in tears trying to get my forgiveness for not checking the unopened box before going out with 5 boxes of 1,000 meter rolls.

I'm just glad that something like that didn't happen when I was getting the Optical Fibre that is currently being run through a new building as it's going up. I don't even need to pull any cable as the sparkies employed there are pulling every lead. That would have been nasty to find when it comes time to connect things up if it was the wrong cable. :(

Col

by jamesrl

It was the head of purchasing of a Fortune 100 who convinced me of it. I poo poo'd his estimate of $80 per purchase order as the cost of processing(in 1994). But he ran me through the process, and I understood where it comes from.

I moved to a different company, full of employees from my previous employer. A year after I arrived, he came too.

One of his big projects was implementing a departmental purchasing card. It was like a credit card, only it was restricted to specific items at specific vendors. The big difference was that instead of getting an invoice for every individual purchase throughout the month, each department got one bill per month to approve.

It was a great thing. I am sure that the finance clerks who were moved into other jobs may not have thought so, but we saved money.

James

by wayne m.

No, the boss probably doesn't know the details of one's job nor know one's current backlog. It is also unlikely that one knows the details of the boss's job. Therefore, when requested to do something, one needs to come to a common understanding of what is to be done and at what cost. Ignoring the request or throwing a temper tantrum do not accomplish this.

When asked to do a task, one needs to address the basic questions, Why?, When?, How Much, and Who? Where is often implicit, but may be important if off-site travel is required. To be able to do a job, one needs to know why the job needs to be done. What is the underlying question or concern to be addressed. One also needs to know when the job must be completed. Obviously, shorter response times will require less depth and breadth of coverage. Likewise, knowing how much effort can be alloacted also provides a limit on the scope. Knowing who one can call on to support the task is important. Is it a solo effort, can you get part-time support, can you get full-time assistance? Know the available resources.

By understanding the scope of the request, one can then present alternatives. "I can do this part and this part and be completed then, or I can do this and that and be complete at another time."

As one advances, one needs to take on greater responsibility in thinking through and understanding tasks. I expect to break down tasks to well-defined pieces for junior staff, but for senior staff, I expect them to take a vague request, clarify it, and come up with a recommendation.

by jmgarvin

"I guess by definition that these managers retard everything, or are retarded/retarding."

Classic! I think I'm going to make a demotivational poster with this nugget!

by jmgarvin

The internet is not a dump truck, it's a bunch of tubes! How do you store a bunch of tubes filled with material!

God, I swear...people on TR are SO stupid sometimes.

by jmgarvin

Ya, these guys are idiots. We recently took a company wide paycut and we were told:
"It is just reallocation so that the best and brightest get the best pay."

I guess the best and brightest are the execs who get huge bonuses.

The only reason most are staying on is because either:
A) They are close to retirement
B) They don't want to relocate (not much in ABQ for IT jobs that actually have a realistic pay scale)
C) LIKE what they are doing and will put up with the BS for a while...but I can tell you the torches and pitchforks are coming out pretty soon.

Course' the funniest part is that everyone has gotten to the point of just rolling their eyes at these shenanigans because they've become so frequent. It's a weekly view into the mind of a bean counter. God forbid we spend a few extra dollars to keep customers! More room!? Na, just stuff everybody in a 6x6 room, they'll be fine...

Oh, note to bean counters or my employeer reading this: Ya, it's stupid. Ya, we know. Stop doing it.

by onbliss

[i] I had a manager (prefer this term instead of boss), that was pretty lenient.[/i]

In a friendly talk with my lead/manager, I told him he was very liberal (meaning he was lenient). He immediately disagreed and explained why he was not a Liberal :-)

by jdclyde

[b]lenient[/b]
1 : exerting a soothing or easing influence : relieving pain or stress
2 : of mild and tolerant disposition; especially : INDULGENT

[b]liberal[/b]
1 : not bound by authoritarianism, orthodoxy, or traditional forms
2 : lacking moral restraint

Of course, the liberal democrats have allowed this to become a negative word in politics, and at election time everyone pretends to be a "moderate", though they are anything but.

by nicknielsen

Was your mistake...

Col, you should have asked for the US$5000 GSA-approved macerator/shredder that you throw entire volumes into, staples, binding and all.

Then you could have settled for a $1000 wide format crosscut shredder without a whimper.

by kiltie

Good idea!!!

Ask for well over the top.... settle for "less"
Which is far more than you wanted in the first place.

Good thinking.

by hal 9000

That was a long time ago and I only had the one option. :)

But it also reminds me of the first Multi Meter that I finally got through and I was asked why I needed it. :D

So to show off a bit [b]I really should have known better[/b] I shoved the probes in a mains outlet with the unit switched to the right range and measured the mains voltage being supplied, sure looked impressive to the Sales Managed but that backfired when I went out on a service call the Sales Manager had to show off my new play toy and did exactly the same thing as I had done in front of one of the dealers unfortunately instead of being set on a High AC range he had it set to a Low Resistance Range. But I'm told that the explosion looked impressive. :^0

When I got back I was handed the wreckage of what was once a good Fluke Multi Meter and told to repair it. I just looked at the mess and told the Sales Manager that I needed a Multi Meter to repair the multi meter that he had just destroyed. I had to fight like hell to get the first one and the second one was handed to me on a plate so much for the old story that they supplied all of the necessary tools. :D

And I did repair the destroyed one as well so I eventually had two working top of the range Flukes back in the days of 1974. It also stopped the Sales Manager from coming down and messing with my [b]Play Toys Whoops I mean Tools![/b] Well it was a lovely unit for the few hours that I had it for but that single piece of equipment paid for itself several times over and allowed me to buy whatever I wanted after that in the way of tools and everyone had strict instructions not to mess with my Tools. :p

The entire place didn't make any sense as I could spend several million without anyone batting an eyelid but try to spend a few dollars on something like solder and you where filling in forms for weeks to get the cheap consumables. They used to drive me totally insane with their paper work and constant questioning on why I needed something that cost $3.00 but never asked a single question when I wanted something really expensive.

Just to drive me totally insane the State Manager insisted that I didn't actually need a Electronic Soldering Iron with Silver Solder as all soldering Irons & Solder where the same so he very nicely took a Mainframe M'Board and replaced a transistor for me. The board came back cremated, it had apparently caught fire and continued to burn after the plumbers gas fired soldering iron had been removed. They didn't even get the dead Tranni out & I will not make any mention of the several pounds of melted solder on the Board. :D

It was really insane there I could invoice out the repaired Circuit Boards for 25 K each but had to fight like hell for the $15.00 transistor and capacitors to fit on the board so I could invoice it out.

OH the [b]Good Old Days[/b] I should have shot myself way back them to save the [b]Unnecessary Pain & Suffering Since.[/b]

Col ]:)

by 50kilroy

It really is. I'm glad that you did that and that your boss was able to appreciate what you showed her.
My boss, however, 'knows everything there is to know'. An action like that would have gotten me a write-up at the very least.
Not all bosses are receptive to the fact that they don't know all.

by jck

They are "streamlining" things here by "reorganizing the infrastructure"...big words for shifting things around to make it look like overpaid management are doing something productive.

So in the process, each department has to order its own supplies (where before we had a central supply 1 person managed...now several will have to manage...really efficient, eh?).

My boss says "Is there anything you need?"

So I start to tell him "Well, I need letter-sized notepads..."

Boss goes "Well you need to write this down."

I'm thinking..."Why the hell didn't he just tell me that in the first place?"

If he wants it written down, he should say it upfront.

Friggin annoying little crap like that, in addition to the things like the three people who have been standing outside my office near the office kitchen for 5 minutes talking about dogs.

Someone shoot me...or set the building on fire while I'm in it. I can't take this crap.

by tig2

People fail to realise that it is rarely the big issues that send a person over the edge- it's the little things.

Hang in there. And try very hard to remember that shooting them may be satisfying... but it will get you talked about.

Seriously, deep breath, another cup of coffee. It's one of THOSE days. Friday is coming...
:)

by nicknielsen

I used to run into this when I was in the Air Force. The problem is that there are two pools of money, one for equipment and one for parts and supplies. For a project like you were on, the former is usually almost unlimited as long as the project requires it. The latter, at almost all levels, is not only finite, but usually less than half what you actually need.

by jdclyde

I told it to Thing One as I was posting it, and it gave him a major giggle fit.

then I had to RE-tell it to him so he could make sure he had it right so he could go tell Thing Two. :D

by hal 9000

That allowed them to question every item purchased and attempt to cut back on my Budget. :(

Now if I had of been like one of the Line Managers and blown a 12 month budget in 30 days I would have received rapid promotion and been much better off. :D

Col ]:)

by colinfromthecrypt

Your wall-sized map of the DB was spot on the money. Management usually (always?) have no idea about technology or its administration and support. By drawing a pretty picture for the techno-klutz you probably found a couple of neurones in her head that sparked into the faintest resemblance of recognising the possibility that you actually doing a good job. Maybe I give her too much credit.

I once worked in a network section of only 3 people. We had to support a statewide WAN of about 100 networks in a partially meshed topology. The CEO was a belligerent Luddite who probably felt intimidated by our qualifications and experience, so he delighted in insulting and criticising our efforts at every opportunity. So we did something similar to your DB map. We used the local graphics program to draw the entire network, complete with ip addresses, host names, etc. It covered an entire wall, and you still had to get up close to read some of the 8-pt labels we needed to use to fit it all on one map. Whenever said technophobe had a discouraging comment we would direct his pointy head at the wall map and ask him where he thought the problem might be!
Visitors to our section were also apprised of our situation, and consequently had less belief in his negative statements, and less confidence in his ability to properly understand.

by hoorah

Shellbot,
I struggle to think of words that wouldn't be harsh. To me, your post makes you sound like you have a lot of growing up to do. I read arrogance into the entire post. How fabulous it is that you're so much smarter than your boss. How fabulous it is that you know it will take you four weeks to document the database. How nice it must be to shrug off your bosses expectations. It sounds to me like your boss has "got your number." She is probably documenting your exit. I sure would if I had an employee like you. I noticed you use a lot of exaggeration and inflamatory words. This reduces the credibility and truthfulness of your story. Phrases like, "Before she escaped me.." minimize credibility. It is amazing how many programmers and DBA's are arrogant. We've got your number folks -- and you don't even know it! You're not fooling anyone.

by jdclyde

It sure is nice how you in your modesty can come in and make such a judgement on others like that.

And such a positive person you seem to be! Your one and only post, and you have to "struggle" to keep from being an overly harsh a$$.

No way of knowing YET if you have been either too lazy or just couldn't figure out HOW to fill in your profile, but I think it is safe to say your not a developer. So much easier to use packages that other people have made for you, huh?

So her boss "has her number" AND "WE'VE got your number" huh? Bet you just heard someone say that today and have just been DYING to say it yourself, so you had to get it in twice. Good for you!

From the obvious lack of understanding on the complexity of a working system, is it safe to say you are a lower manager, quite like Shells boss, that has not a clue what your people do or how they do it?

What a twit.

by hoorah

Well,
I read all the replies: the good, the bad and the ugly. I also re-read Shellbot's original post. I had hoped I would reconsider my response. I am sure Shellbot is a fabulous person and I only wish her good things in life.

However, I cannot help but read Shellbot's post and come away feeling like she has duped us all (and maybe even herself). Although it is admittedly too simplified for a complex humanity, I sometimes find it helpful to consider people's response in a context I read in The Road Less Traveled by M. Scott Peck. He writes that there are two kinds of people in this world: those that blame themselves for everything, and those that blame others. If Shellbot is overwhelmed by her job.. it must be someone else's fault?

None of the posts that feed into Shellbot's boss bashing were helpful. It perpetuates the idea of diminishing others (who in this case have had no voice) and raises oneself. Shellbot does not gain power by such destructive characterizations of her boss.

On the other hand, Shellbot has probably gained what she had hoped to gain...a bond with fellow TR posters through this "common bond" of "us against them." Isn't that why you are all here?

by jamesrl

What I hear is not arrogance but frustration. Shell tried to explain it - boss didnt want to hear.

The boss on the other hand was arrogant in stating that she thought it could be done in a week. A smart boss(and I'd like to think I am one) might estimate based on experience, but do not committ until they consult.

I've known some brilliant DBAs who write books and lecture at conferences. They were far from arrogant. You on the other hand seem quick to judge.

For what its worth, I wouldnt hire you.

James

by techexec2

Dear hoorah,

These words should sound familiar to you.

I struggled to think of words that wouldn't be harsh. To me, your post makes you sound like you have a lot of growing up to do as both a manager and a human being. I read arrogance and insecurity into your entire post. How fabulous it is that you think you're so much smarter than the subordinates I have entrusted you with. How fabulous it is that you know you have the authority and power to force things down their throats. How nice it must be to shrug off your subordinates skill and knowledge for the sake of your ego and ignorance. Well, I've got your number. I don't even have to document your exit. I noticed you overreact and misjudge your subordinates simply based on the words they use. This reduces your effectiveness and clouds your judgement. It is amazing how many managers are arrogant. Well, some of us executives have your number buddy, and you don't even know it! You're not fooling anyone.

You're fired.

P.S. Of course, this is fiction. In the real world, I would have seen through you during the interviews and never would have hired you in the first place. I would never entrust my business and my valuable people to someone who is as ignorant, insecure, arrogant, egotistical, and abusive as you. You have completely misjudged ShellBot in this matter. Authority is a [i]privilege and an honor[/i] entrusted to those who know how to use it for the benefit of the company, not to boost their own fragile ego.

by tony hopkinson

Any boss that tells someone to do something they don't understand how to do, without first gaining an appreciation of the amount of work and how it impacts the task load on the individual or department is an incompetent fool.

We are techs not wizards, what you get from us is the result of experience, education, talent and drive, not waving a stick with glittery gold star on the end about and invoking the silicon god.

by kiltie

For a person like this, the phrase ID(10)T was invented.

His TR ID is indicitative (anyone know what a "hooray henry" is?)
try this:
http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/186300.html

My friends, your calm and educated response to this post shows your intelligence.

I am proud of you for not flaming this Id10t in the manner he seemed to deserve, but you restrained yourselves.

Attaboys

by tig2

Like the fact that Shell works with academics, not IT people and has been shifted from boss to boss. Or how about the fact that her sentence structure is different from American sentence structure... because she is in Ireland.

I didn't hear her say that she was shrugging off anything. Only that her boss thought that documentation of the database and its inter-relationships would be a simple task. So she VERY RESPONSIBLY created a map of the database (that will no doubt become an element of her documentation) to help her boss understand that this task is NOT something that she can toss off during her lunch hour.

It would do you good to consider that your American vocabulary is not the only one in use on this board. It might also help you to strip out that which you find inflammatory in order to get to the crux of a post.

Flaming someone is rarely the right answer.

Edited to correct typo

by hal 9000

I really couldn't say. :p

But I have had a look at the way that those things work and can fully understand why the IT Department there wants none of it. The reason why I never did any was it's way to much Hard Work that I don't need to kill myself over for someone's else's benefit. :)

The entire project is undocumented and currently there is no one who understands how the system works fully except the person who is holding it together with [b]Used Chewing Gum and Bailing Wire![/b]

Now if I was the manager there I would be getting in some [b]Full Time Help[/b] to keep the system going while the documentation is done up as it's something that's going to take a very long time to complete unless you want the [b]QUICK ANSWER[/b]

[i]you put the data in this Blank Rectangle and it comes out here just the way that you want it.[/i]

See how easy it is to fully describe a functional DBase? :D

But because this is a custom one and written [b]In House[/b] you would have to change the description slightly to fully document the system properly it would read something like this

[i]You insert your [b]Special Company Information[/b] in here and then through some magic it comes out here when you press that button and comes out there when you press that button.[/i] :(

Don't try to confuse the Management with Tech Terms like Fields and Columns things like that are way too technical for them to understand let alone those silly numbers down one side and the charters across the top they are all useless and mean absolutely nothing at all so ignore them completely. :^0

[b]Thank You[/b] for your very informative post as it's great to know that there are still people like you around I'll always have the job that I want when I want it because of People Like You, You can not pass up Bean Counters easily and you sound exactly like every one that I've ever run across [b]Unfortunately Not Over![/b] Perhaps you should suggest that Shelly get fired and replaced with 2 very junior fresh out of college staff as the wages will be much less and they will be more productive. You don't have to worry that the DBase will hardly ever be working and that no one else will be capable of doing any work you'll be getting your money's worth from the two new techs that you have employed and you'll be so happy when they [b]Brown Nose you wont you?[/b] In places like this work isn't important it's the appearance of doing something that has all the importance.

[b]I would give you 3 weeks to Bankrupt the Business Totally Beyond The Ability to Recover From The Mess That You Made.[/b] Remember that this is a [b]Mission Critical Application[/b] that no one except the one person actually knows something about. And even they where not there when this Monster was developed. It's a [b]Nightmare Job[/b] at the very best of times and having someone who known absolutely nothing about the system giving orders is nothing more than a [b]Recipe for Disaster![/b]

When I worked Big Business I used to have a saying for people like you it went like this [b]The Impossible is Performed Immediately Miracles take slightly longer and for Comic Relief we Walk On Water on the Weekends.[/b] Get the idea? :0

Now that I'm older I can pick & chose what I do so I no longer do any Government Work or Medial Work both fields have far too many people like you working in them who [b]Mess Up[/b] and them blame the staff for their own incompetence they are incapable of being able to tell people that they are total F##K UPS just like you are by your idiotic posting here. In short [b]They Lie Without a Second Thought to Blame Someone Else Not Involved![/b]

You remind me of one Bean Counter who was quite happy to spend 2 Million $ to prevent me spending $25.00 makes a hell of a lot of economic sense doesn't it? :) That company went broke 3 months after I walked out on the mess that the accounts where making of it and cutting back staff who brought in money while all the time increasing the accounting staff at [b]Overinflated Salaries[/b] who where nothing but a drain on the business and consumed far more than they could ever hope to produce. And that was without taking into account their Bonuses for loosing money. Naturally when the Receiver was appointed the Books had been shredded so the people to blame had thought that they had got away with their [b]Criminal Activities.[/b] They didn't and got 25 year jail terms way too short for what they had done but that was all that was allowed.

I was going to post this here for you

http://piv.pivpiv.dk/

But I realised that it doesn't apply as you give IDIOT'S a [b]BAD NAME![/b]

Oh by the way the smallest department that I ever ran when I was working at the big end of Town had 120 staff who where field staff the office staff didn't count in my department who installed and serviced Computer hardware and my smallest budget was only 25 Million $ every 3 months.

That was paltry in comparison to the hardware that we where installing and maintaining as even the smallest installation would have come very close to my quarterly budget and the big systems would have be several orders of magnitude of that amount. I never ran at a loss ever even though when I first started there I was told that the section was a [b]Service For The Customer[/b] & I wasn't expected to make a profit.

I kept the customers & staff happy and the more that we did for the customers the more work that we got and the more units that we sold through tame sales people we decided what was required and sold the complete units and after the deal was done the sales team got the job of writing out a direct copy of our Specification Requirements with no possibility of alteration.

After reading your above post I now understand why after 16 years I'm still getting calls to come back and work at the Big End of Town and do the job properly just like I used to.

You can always tell the Great Managers as they don't have tabs on themselves like you appear to they will be the ones who say things like [b]My Position Here is Alleged Boss & Official Scape Goat.[/b] The ones that Big Note themselves can not do the required work so as they totally stuff up one division they get promoted to another where they can do more damage.

The proper term for this is [b]The S H I T always floats to the top[/b] feel familiar? :D :^0 :D :^0 :p :) :0

But seriously [b]Thank You[/b] for that very enlightened post I needed a good laugh and a reminder of why I walked away from Fools like you in the first place. I was actually thinking of returning to Big Business with all my current staff just to have less pressure and more free time but you've reminded me of everything that I hated when I was working there and a 5 year contract would have been impossible to keep without killing some IDIOTS like you to get the work done properly. :D

They honestly are [b]Not Worth The Bother or Inconvenience of having around![/b]

OH By the way you would never have even got past the first stage if you where applying for a job under me and if you had of been appointed over me you would have learnt very quickly that I'm nasty and will quite happily scare the S H I T out of you without a second though. And when you went to complain and attempt to get me fired you would have been asked what you did to upset me and not to do it again. Then have a reprimand placed against your name. :p

I never considered myself as irreplaceable but everyone in Upper Management did because I held my Integrity and they all knew that I would only go off when the situation warranted it and even them just about every time that I did it was to protect my staff from fools who didn't understand what the work involved.

In 1974 we had a small flood here only about 30 to 40 feet of water over the city and even then with an unlimited Budget to get things replaced and working again I never exceeded my [b]Normal Budget[/b] and all the staff worked so hard that I could never repay them for their efforts. The complete Gross of the company for a decade would not of even come close to the work that was above and beyond the call of duty that they all did. Then after it was finished I threw a party for them and gave them all 2 weeks off. What happened then one Idiot Accountant came down complaining about the booze and other rubbish that was in the Workshop.

I just looked at him and he ran away crying and if I had not of been so tired I would have given him a permanent view of the workshop by mounting him on the wall with a 24 inch number 1 Phillips screwdriver driven into the wall straight through him. :D

I could have stood the bad smell because as he decayed it would only have got better and less of a offencive stench around the place. :p

Col ]:)

by wayne m.

It seems communications breakdowns begat communications breakdown. Let's all take a deep breath, refrain from accusations and name calling, and see if there might be something to learn. I suggest we treat the original post as a case study and evaluate how things could have gone differently. Also, please indulge me and recognize that all of the following are my assumptions so that I do not have to tediously place "I assume" at the start of each sentence.

The communications between the boss and the poster broke down and the result was unacceptable to either. The current relationship between the two is probably quite strained.

The boss made a vague and ambiguous request. I can probably identify dozens of possible meanings of "document the database" with levels of effort varying from hours to months. Ideally at this point, one party or the other should have asked to meet to discuss the request, "Could we get together for about a half hour to talk about what is needed?"

It appears the boss was unaware of any plan of action to fulfil the request, but instead of asking directly, the boss continued to ask, "When will it be done?" The boss could have asked a more direct question, such as "When do you think you will be able to start and how long might it take? Is there anything I can do to assist?" Alternately, the poster could have replied to the second question even though the first question had been asked.

The boss commenting on the poster's performance in a public area is an absolute mistake. I'm not a fan of "venting", but if it is to be done, it must be done in private. It would have been preferrable for the boss to ask for advice, in private, concerning how to handle the situation, rather than just complaining.

If the boss, however, had intended the comment to be overheard as a motivational technique, then it was an absolute disaster. Never communicate through third parties. Once again, a simple face-to-face meeting could have put things right, instead the boss taking this approach.

At this point, the poster armed with knowledge of a one week timebox could still have asked for a meeting concerning the task. At this point, however, emotions are running quite high, and it is easy for me to make idealistic recommendations that I might not have been able to follow if I were in the situation.

Even at the current point, there is some possibility for improvement. It would be beneficial for either the boss or the poster to request a meeting to repair damage, "We have clearly gotten off on the wrong foot and I regret the situation. What can we do to complete this task in a timely manner?"

Please note that in these situations, I feel the boss bears more of the responsibility for ensuring communications than the staff member. If the boss, however, does not take on this responsibility, the staff member needs to recognize it and take the lead instead.

For the poster, the situation is past and none of the advice, with the possible exception of the reconcilliation thought, is beneficial. For the rest of us, however, I think it would be helpful to analyze the post as if it were a clinical study, try to identify the points where the situation deteriorated, and try to identify alternate scenrios that might have lead to a better ending. I hope that this information will help all of us identify and resolve communications breakdowns in our own environments. I look forward to seeing constructive analyses and mitigation steps that we all can apply.

by jdclyde

Can you as logically and calmly breakdown and explain "hoorah" picking this time to attack Shellbot?

I look at it, but can't see a single reason this person would pick this time to jump into the discussions and start out with only hostility. Can you explain this to me?

Thanks.

jd

by charlesdr

Wayne, I think that this is what everyone here is doing, taking deep breath and thinking how situation like this can be solved. And this is reason, why we all are writing here our own experience. It is that simple - bosses are good, bad or something between. I have personally tons of experience with it, always trying to have good relations with my boss.
1.I try to do my job without bother my boss at all if that is possible
2. If boss wants me to I do what he wants if it is mine job and if it is not destroying the work we did before or if it is not against law or something.
3. If it is against something, I try to explain, why it is worst/best and so on.
4.Some time it is simply not possible. Some people are disaster.
5. Than how was mentioned, You just have to do something what you think is close enough to bosses wish with minimizing the loses.
6. I personally do another think, if it is possible, I behave like I forgot to do it. 90% bosses never wants it again, in the rest 10% I apologize I forgot and I do the boss crap as mentioned.
Usually I do my job on high level, so I can have troubles with boss some time, but they leave me without harm, because they know I do lot of great job for them. Of course shit may happen... and now in government services the politics in power are the worst of worst imaginable. Fortunately until now I do not deal with them too much.
Have a good time with Your bosses all of You ;-)

by wingedmonkey

That is what reading your response was to me.IMHO.

Sometimes a cigar is really nothing more then a cigar.
Somtimes a dork is really nothing more then a dork.
Sometimes people have to get slammed to wake up and say, "Oh, I get it now." No amount of Dr Spock, feels good empathy session is going make a difference for some. Yes, for some it may, but there's no need to let off steam and vent a bit about them now, is there?
I have read enough of Shellbotts post to trust that any all reasonable communication attempts had allready been made prior to her wall demonstration.
-Which was Freeking cool!

by charlesdr

I have the same experience as stated above. My boss is a CIO. He do not study it, he hadn?t did nothing in IT, he is engineer , but he is CIO for 10 years now. Quite a good in administrative things. And in snake diplomacy. He do not want to do nothing "unimportant". Unimportant from his point of view. Unimportant means ?to be involved, must to put some effort into? Security policy ? ?Yes do it?. Implement it? NO. It is too much work for him, he may need argue with someone maybe. NO nonono. IT strategy? He tells ?Yes, do some document. But in fact we do not need it, I just want everything is working here? Planning some work? Planning what software we will buy, how it should be interconnected? NO. Whoever need something from town hall, he will buy it for them an d then he is pushing all IT ?do it somehow working? smiling widely. I cannot working overtime officially ? he gets mad. I told him once ? why you do not let me my job, the way I know and I am good in. He answered: because I don?t like it, you do precise plan work for people FOR WHOM I AM THE BOSS. I did it without security policy and without processes and without strategy before and I will be retired like this. I told him ? NO your deputy did it instead of you, but you do not let him anymore, and situation is dangerous for you, and do not worry I do not want to replace you. And I must plan work I am also a project manager, this is the job I was hired for. But nothing helped.
We do not do minutes, we don?t do description of DB, of network, of infrastructure, we do not plan, nothing. But anyway, now I am relaxed. I am doing only necessary and pleasant work. Boss is smiling on me, he has not a clue what I am doing, but he knows I am doing important stuff and he believe me, only thing I cant do is collaboration whit others. And I recommend the same for others. Or You can fight until some breaking point or You can do what boss want you to do as close as is safe for you or you can leave the job.

by jdclyde

It doesn't matter if the boss is right or wrong, if you go against him/her/it/monsterfromhell, then it will just be you looking for a new job and he/she/it/monsterfromhell will find someone else that will do as they are told.

You have to allow other people to be wrong, is the bottem line.

Do your job. That job is defined by your boss, as long as it is not illegal or impossible.

Just relax with your boss, and if policy is not implimented, it is HIS problem, not yours.

by charlesdr

What You wrote is exactly what I am doing. In the real I do not care that much about my boss. I am sad because 400 users have much more difficult live with PC and programs than thay can have. But big deal, responsibility is his ;-)

by kiltie

I wonder if that is like our UK Ministry of Defence (MoD) "Votes"

Every year the MoD has to submit estimates of expenditure for the forthcoming year, this included ALL expenditures (go figure)

So, every April, just before the next round of "votes" there was always a fresh smell of paint as the various departments sought to use up what they had estimated the previous year.

God forbid that anyone underspent what they had forecast, as their next years "Vote" was automatically reduced by the underspend!!!

It was crazy.

Unlimited spending at the last minute, on very small projects (eg decorating) to fill up what was left, until the estimate was fulfilled.

Meanwhile large projects (ie new computers) went through "on the nod". (these were in the days before desktops and distributed, networked PCs)

It's a crazy world we live in.

by gadgetgirl

I must keep away from this thread; I must keep away from this thread; I must keep away from this thread .........

well I tried.

Too bloody angry to full story this now but if anyone needs Info Sec personnel in the NE of the UK, pm me, before I commit bloody murder.

Nutshell: Post was created for a specific purpose - to fulfill a necessity for the IG toolkit used by the NHS. New double dippy tart HOT has decided she doesn't want to work the toolkit, and some stupid bleep in here is letting her get away with it....so my post goes.

Job match? 75%. With what? Nothing.

Would I like to become a "Customer Service IDEAS team member? "

"What's IDEAs?"

"Information Development and Education Advisor"

"you mean trainer?"

"yes"

(reply unrepeatable)

Customer Service? That's the bloody complaints department where I come from! Oh, s*ddin' hell it just gets worse.... Security? Wozzat??

Off home shortly, to consider height of Tyne Bridge in relation to my own.

And yes, those that know me, more than the odd libation or three when I get there. VERY large ones.

Move over, EnBee, I'm in the queue with you.....

GG

by tig2

If I email you a LARGE G&T???

TR will be down tomorrow- keep an eye on your peer...

You KNOW you will be okay, don't you??? I know you will. I have faith in you.

Snit! Why do the double dippy tarts win?

by gadgetgirl

always check PERSONAL MAIL - note difference!!!

I'll be fine when I calm down....when....hmm...could be a while....

I don't understand why this DDT is winning - she's going to take the place down with her.

Why can only three of us see that?

Why couldn't they have waited till after Xmas?

- - - make that a FEW large G & T's please, Tig!

GG

by nicknielsen

Is no doubt why you were offered the training and complaints positions.

If it would help, we could pray for the system to be compromised over the weekend? Irony is always nice...

And before somebody jumps, [i]no, I am [b]not[/b] suggesting that GG or anybody else do something so foolish, so [u]back off[/u]![/i] Look up "rhetorical question."

by gadgetgirl

I'm the one who's done all the security work on this side of the Trust before the merger, getting them to part way compliance with ISO 27001.

Even got a 99.5% score on Incident Investigation Procedures (unheard of score in the NHS previously)

Instead of expanding this to the "new" half of the Trust, they're dropping it.....

Oh, and I will never have the words "Customer Service" on my CV. If I so much as drop the word Security from my job title, I'll never be considered for another security post (it's just one of those "things" over here in the UK)

And, I'm not a trainer. I don't want to be a trainer. I have no patience for training. I'm not qualified to be a trainer. I've had no courses in training. I don't have the patience to be a trainer. I don't want to be a trainer.

And yes, I said all that at least three times, too....

ooof! large gin just landed - pass the tonic, please, Nick, Tig said there was some in, but I think she just let the tonic bottle glance at the glass.....

GG

by hal 9000

http://tinyurl.com/q29wq

I got such a god laugh out of this one that I had to edit my response about 10 times so I didn't offend. :)

Now for the serious things Tyne Bridge isn't worth it as you know just how polluted the water under it is all that will happen is that once you hit the surface of the water you'll have to stand up and walk off the river. And you might break a nail. :^0

I personally found that chasing people around with a 2 foot long number 1 Phillips screwdriver worked great with the fools and they shut up once they had escaped and tried complaining about me only to find that they had themselves repremanded. :^0

Take solace from this [b]No Matter What Happens No One is Going To Die as a Result of the Stupidity Where You Work.[/b] :p

Whoops probably not a good example there as you work Medical but you can take comfort in the knowledge that they would have died anyway as it is the Quacks who are Incompetent and they will continue to kill people no matter what you do in an attempt to stop them. :p

I used to have an old Honeywell Dumb Terminal that found it's way around the place when I got upset somehow it used to fly around the workshop apparently the place was [b]Haunted![/b] No matter what I tried that nasty ghost used to throw that terminal around all the time. :(

One of the really great ones was with the weekly orders we used to have a broken clip board which the Bean Counters where to tight to replace so we held the paper work on with a massive Bull Dog Clip and one day just to make a point I slammed the clipboard down only to see the bull dog clip fly off the board into the wall and then across the room just missing the offending staff member. It was very impressive and cured the problems immediately. :D

Or My best effort was with an old IBM Mainframe which had a broken lever and was a dangerous thing to replace. The AU Sales Manager walked in and insisted that he knew how to fix the problem and I was too cautious. He just stuck in a big screwdriver and levered away. The carriage which had a massive spring to hold it in place flew off the run that it was on into the wall them the ceiling and then hit the AU Sales Manager on the head, he was dropped like a 8 year old school case when they hit home and was left lying bleeding on the floor unconscious. My only worry was that the cleaning was going to cost much more this week and I had to pay to have the holes in the wall & ceiling filled. :(

I just picked up the internal phone and asked the State Sales Manager to come down and remove the AU Sales Manager who was unconscious and bleeding on my floor. I've never seen him move so fast and I nearly burst out laughing but I had to find that carriage that had disappeared when the AU Sales Manager had levered it off. :^0

Those pesky things can really hide when they want to. :p

Col ]:)

by oz_media

The early Friday Yuk it is

What did Cinderella do whet she got to the ball?

Choke. :)

Have a good weekend, a long one for us this time.

by mickster269

Hey, GG?

Take a week off, fly across the pond to the States, and come visit us.

If you come to Kentucky, I'll take you to the races (Keenland opens today).

Tour around, we'll all buy you drinks when you come by!

Go back in a week or so, and you won't even remember why you worked at the old job.

by tig2

I figured personal over peer.

TR is coming down tomorrow for re-launch. I wouldn't bother changing the peer addy until it comes back up. I already changed your default addy in my address book and PDA.

Emailing a fifth and litre of tonic. I think Nick has you covered for lime. Maybe this is a blessing in disguise- GG takes a break!

by tig2

And you NEVER let the Vermouth actually TOUCH the glass!

I was supposed to put tonic in?

Good news is that Security is one of those roles that are always looking. They can't outsource it, have to be compliant. The fact that you can claim a 99.5% score on ISO 27001 is a huge sell point for your CV. Use a bold font on that!

by hal 9000

If anything low light it and make the font smaller and less noticeable.

When asked look ashamed and say well I got these things wrong that will be far better as it shows that you will accept nothing but [b]Perfection.[/b]

Those who are really important will recognise it for what it is and those that would act all impressed with a 99.5% score are not the ones who you need to impress.

Col

by hal 9000

But I refrained so much that I only had to edit my reply about 10 times so it couldn't possibly offend anyone, [b]Honest at least that was my intent![/b] :D

I hope no one takes it the wrong way. :)

Col

by hal 9000

After all you work for the NHS in the UK and you already know the answer! :)

[b]S H 1 T always floats to the top in any Government Department.[/b] It's an accepted fact that the higher up you get in these departments it shows just how little you actually know and you've only been moved there because of your incompetence in the lower positions. :^0

I've yet to see any Bureaucrat rewarded because of any form of [b]Competence[/b] but the [b]Incompetent[/b] get promoted faster than it's possible to place their names on their doors. :p

Col ]:)

by jdclyde

If you would have had peer mail on, I would have given a better explaination, but as you don't, this will have to do.

If you would have been reading the discussions over the last few months you would know that this issue with her boss was just a reaction from other stresses in her life that most of us have not had the misfortune to have to deal with.

Did her post turn into a touch of boss-bashing? Sure, but from her language (if put in proper context) it was kept on the light side rather than get hateful. That is what explains the "before she excaped". Joke, you might have heard of the expression.

I wish her only the best, and if she quit her job today, it would barely put a dent in what she is dealing with. Get it? It isn't the job. It was a need to release some steam.

Maybe you should get to know the people before you decide to slam them? One discussion does not get you to know the person, nor give you a good insight as to what they are about.

As for me personally, I don't cast blame because it is a waste of my time. Well, some blame, but I am beyond that. I just make the best of bad situation and look to see how I can make them better. We all have our problems to deal with. Thanks to support from people here, things are getting better all the time.