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  • #2291014

    Fallujah falls ….


    by jardinier ·

    more dead Americans;
    more dead Iraqi insurgents;
    more dead Iraqi civilians.

    How many times must a man look up
    Before he can see the sky
    Yes ‘n how many ears must one man have
    Before he can hear people cry
    Yes ‘n how many deaths will it take till he knows
    That too many people have died
    The answer my friend, is blowin’ in the wind
    The answer is blowin’ in the wind

    A quick Google search will show you many pictures of the incursion in Fallujah. I looked at pictures at:

    What distressed me most was the youthfulness of the American soldiers who have died. I can only hope that history will tell that they have not died in vain.

    There has been much debate recently as to how many Iraqi people have died directly as a result of the war. I have just received the following information from a very reliable source, and have emailed him asking how these figures were arrived at.

    Naming the Dead in Iraq ceremony on 2nd November revealed the latest body count from Iraq showed 37,000 Iraqi civilians, 30,000 Iraqi soldiers and 1,246 Coalition soldiers had died in the conflict so far.

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    • #3292513


      by bfilmfan ·

      In reply to Fallujah falls ….

      I didn’t see any body count for terrorists, insurrgents, freedom fighters (insert whatever term you prefer for the whomever isn’t in uniform and firing on Allied Forces [US, British, xtc.]) listed there from your source.

      Being old enought to have participated in Summer Vacation 1969, Dong Ap Bia Gathering, and later learning the North Vietmanese listed their dead at nearly 2 million, I would suspect that any body count is highly suspect as to the number of enemy/civilian dead. It is common practice among combat forces to drag off bodies and hide them,so the enemy cannot tell the size of the force it is engaging. Unless news crews are standing around and it makes good PR for your side, then it makes sense to claim they killed 10 times that many “innocent civilians” and these were all you could find.

    • #3292510

      Bob Dylan and Young Soldiers

      by maxwell edison ·

      In reply to Fallujah falls ….


      I read not too long ago that the writer of the lyrics you posted was being mentioned in some (serious) circles as being considered as a viable contender for nomination to receive the Nobel Prize for literature. It would be an unprecedented move, since music and/or music lyrics have never before been considered for such an honor. But if anyone deserves to be the exception, it’s Bob Dylan whose lyrics have touched the hearts and the souls of more than just one generation. You and I are of a generation that heard them for the first time. But they do indeed live on for all to hear.


      That song was first released by Bob Dylan in 1963, when I was 10 years old, on the “The Freewheelin’ Bob Dylan” record album. Of course his version never received much air time, as Peter Paul and Mary’s version rode the music charts into what could be described as a theme song for the contentious 60s. The message, however, will remain with us for ages, I have no doubt. (Actually, the song itself was first released on an earlier Peter Paul and Mary album. Dylan’s album was released later in the year.)

      I have a couple of copies of that original Bob Dylan record album. And if you would like one, I’d be happy to send it to you. (However, I’d need some time to dig it up.) But not too many people have turntables any more. (I have three.)

      The record tracks are:

      “Blowin’ in the Wind”
      “Girl From The North Country”
      “Masters Of War”
      “Down The Highway”
      “Bob Dylan’s Blues”
      “A Hard Rain’s A-Gonna Fall”
      “Don’t Think Twice, It’s All Right”
      “Bob Dylan’s Dream”
      “Oxford Town”
      “Talking World War III Blues”
      “Corrina, Corrina”
      “Honey, Just Allow Me One More Chance”
      “I Shall Be Free”

      I think my favorite track on the record is Dylan’s solo version of “Don’t Think Twice, It’s All Right”. Dylan vocals, guitar and harmonica. But the whole album certainly is, in my opinion, one of the most important and influential pieces of work of the 20th century.


      And you’re right, Julian. Those soldiers are very young, at least by our standards. But I’ve known a lot of these guys, and they all have my utmost respect and admiration. They truly are today’s heroes, and I believe history will judge them accordingly.

      Consider this for just a moment. Consider that the plan really is to transform the middle east into a land that values freedom and democracy. Consider that after hundreds (or thousands) of years of hatred, oppression and violence, that the seeds of liberty planted today in Iraq just might be the cure that spreads across borders. Consider that, even though it might take several decades to accomplish, we can finally see a middle east with some semblance of order and acceptance for people of all backgrounds. Consider that after decades of tolerating the “nuisance” of world-wide terrorism that it might eventually be defeated, and the lands in which it incubates might no longer breed such hatred.

      It is indeed a noble and lofty goal, and one I believe is in the making. Whether or not we can accomplish that goal remains to be seen, but it certainly is worthy of pursuit. And consider that young soldier who is taking the first steps in the accomplishment of that goal. No, I don’t believe that those who’ve died will have died in vain. To the contrary, I think their sacrifices will be seen in no lesser light and no less noble than those who remain under the headstones at Normandy.

      And Julian, I believe their efforts will work, because thay have to work.

      • #3292465

        I never could stand Bob Dylan…

        by tomsal ·

        In reply to Bob Dylan and Young Soldiers

        Not really on topic I know, but they played Dylan on the radio today too and you know what he is one guy that boggles my mind how people find him talented…I can’t stand his voice.

        • #3292430

          Voices only a mother could love – or a real aficionado

          by maxwell edison ·

          In reply to I never could stand Bob Dylan…

          Here’s a quick list of some “voices” that wouldn’t exactly get critical acclaim, at least when compared to the likes of Frank Sinatra, Julie Andrews, Luciano Pavarotti, Josh Grogan or a multitude of other “great” voices.

          Bob Dylan
          Janice Joplin (Although her rendition of Kris Kristofferson’s, “Me and Bobby McGee”, especially the song’s conclusion, is, in my opinion, one of the greatest vocal presentations of all time.)
          Kris Kristofferson
          Louie Armstrong
          Bruce Springsteen (I once heard a D.J. say that Springsteen sounds like Bob Seger, except that Bob Seger can sing.)
          Mick Jagger
          Willie Nelson
          Stevie Nicks (At least according to some people, but personally I think she has a great voice)
          Ringo Starr
          Rod Stewart

          Moreover, Bob Dylan is most certainly recognized for his song writing abilities much more than his vocal skills. You might be surprised to see some of his songs made into hits by other singers.

          Some examples:

          Blowin’ in the Wind (Peter Paul and Mary)
          All Along the Watchtower (Jimmie Hendrix)
          Mr. Tambourine Man (The Byrds)
          Knockin’ on Heaven’s Door (Warren Zevon recorded a great rendition of this song just before his impending death)
          Like a Rolling Stone (Rolling Stones)

          …..just to name a few.

        • #3292336

          Janis joplins voice

          by packet spoofer ·

          In reply to Voices only a mother could love – or a real aficionado

          Sounds like a dying rhinocerous with laryngitis!
          I would rather listen to a donkey bray in a tin roofed barn at midnight than to hear that woman sing…..!

        • #3293985

          Actually Scott Janis screamed more than sing

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Janis joplins voice

          But Max is totally correct her rendition of “Me and Bobby McGee” was one of the greatest songs of all time.

          When she had Big Brother and the Holding Company backing her she was great but after the split she went down hill a lot and the work load that was placed upon her eventually lead to her death. But the really funny thing is that she became far more popular after her death than when she was alive so at the very least she is in some excellent company!


        • #3291541


          by packet spoofer ·

          In reply to Actually Scott Janis screamed more than sing

          I actually do like the song….and it is a paradox to me why a voice that sounds like a blender in “liquify” mode, can actually be considered enjoyable, and yet if I pass by that song on the radio, I always stop and listen to it.

        • #3291446

          Yes Scott it is

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Col…..

          Unforgettable isn’t it?


        • #3294048

          Voices ….

          by jardinier ·

          In reply to Voices only a mother could love – or a real aficionado

          Technically speaking, I would say that Louis Armstrong does not possess a singing voice at all.

          But he is the one vocalist whom I never tire of hearing.

        • #3294051

          Dylan’s “voice” ….

          by jardinier ·

          In reply to I never could stand Bob Dylan…

          At the peak of his popularity, I was living in Kings Cross, Sydney, an embedded observer of the hippie phenomenon.

          In one building where I lived for a while, the folks would get stoned and listen to Bob Dylan all night.

          I couldn’t STAND his voice, but I could readily recognise that he was the voice of a whole generation of young people who felt let down by their parents and the establishment, but did not know where to turn.

          Bob Dylan did not provide any answers, but he sure vocalised the feelings of those young people who felt alienated from mainstream society.

          I will tell you a little story (yes, I am always blowing my own trumpet in these discussions, but only because my experiences are relevant to the topic).

          A suburban branch of Rotary asked Ted Noffs of the Wayside Chapel if he could select someone to explain the views of the young people.

          He chose me, and a young guitarist, and I chose a female member of staff for emotional support.

          In typical fashion, I did not prepare a speech, but over dinner thought up a few comments.

          The young guitarist played and sang, in an aggressive tone, “The Times They Are A’ Changing.”
          After ten minutes I had used up all my ideas and was standing on a stage, speechless, before a large audience with another 50 minutes to fill in.

          So I asked the audience (middle class mums and dads) if they had any questions. Well things really took off. They were so interested to hear me explain the views of the young people that they extended the meeting beyond the normal time.

          And the young guitarist, who had sung so angrily before, was so moved by the interest of the older generation that he played a really nice song in conclusion.

        • #3293986

          Tom you’re missing the point

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to I never could stand Bob Dylan…

          I don’t think anyone ever accused Bob Dylan of being a good let along great singer but it was always the lyrics that held the meaning.

          I’m old enough to remember the time when he was very active and was described as the American Conscious, however now I see the God Squad singing “Knocking on Heavens Door” as a Gospel song without understanding the meaning they have mistakenly misunderstood its real meaning and get carried away with the idea that it was written for their current beliefs.

          Also he was a prolific song writer who wrote so many songs that it would be impossible to list them all most where used by other artists who made them into massive hits.

          He wasn’t a bad Axe Grinder either as Simon & Garfunkel’s “Bridge over Troubled Waters” shows when it was originally released it did nothing and it wasn’t until they where in Abby Road Studios doing a remix of the song that a young Bob Dylan walked in picked up a Bass Guitar and played along all of which ended up on the recording that, made that particular song became as famous as it was and still is. If you have a look at the credits on that song you’ll see Dylan’s name.


      • #3292393

        motive for war

        by john.a.wills ·

        In reply to Bob Dylan and Young Soldiers

        If the U.S. really wanted to make the Middle East democratic it would stop selling weapons to undemocratic governments. Jimmy Carter issued an executive order to that effect regarding the Americas, and ten years later every American country except Haiti and Cuba was a democracy. It would take a little longer in Araby, no doubt. Primum non nocere, i.e. first do no harm.

      • #3294047

        I will certainly take you up on that offer …

        by jardinier ·

        In reply to Bob Dylan and Young Soldiers

        I will send you my postal address through the peer directory, as I don’t know if you use the same email address that I have for you.

        About 5 years ago I purchased a brand new turntable for $AU 250. I consider it one of the best investments I have ever made.

        The first time I played a vinyl on it, I immediately decided that the only practical use for CDs would be to use them as frisbees.

        At the time the local Hi-Fi shop had only one model of turntable. Now they have five, so obviously more and more people are rediscovering vinyls.

      • #3293987

        My God Max where did you get them from?

        by hal 9000 ·

        In reply to Bob Dylan and Young Soldiers

        I’ve been looking for a copy of that album for a very long time now as it is the only Dylan one that I have not got a copy of.

        In all honesty I’m recording them to CD now just to save the Vinyl you still get the sound of an LP but with the convenience of a CD and you do not run the risk of damaging the pickup either as vinyl scratches very easily and good pickups are very to get now days. The best place that I’ve run across only has the original changeable needles and none of them now have the moving coil pickup now as while some turntables are still around the market just is no longer there for the really good pickups any longer.

        Anyway back to the thread I don’t know if you got to hear of them in the US but there was an AU band called Redgum who where very much like the old Dylan going around about 15 years ago or maybe a bit longer now they sought of lost it when their lead singer/songwriter dropped out to stay at home eventually he ran for Federal Parliament and won a seat but I have not heard of him for a long while now. Anyway if you ever get the chance to hear Redgum’s “Walk in the Light Green” or as it was renamed for radio “I was only 19” grab it you’ll like it as it is in a very similar vein to the old Dylan’s work.


    • #3292466

      I knew the parent of one soldier who just died

      by tomsal ·

      In reply to Fallujah falls ….

      This past monday (11/15) my co-workers and I learned that the son of a former co-worker (who herself was a very nice woman, we talked often) was killed in Fallujah. He was with the USMC.

      Only 25 years old. There is more to this story though…the mother (my ex co-worker) quit this job only because back in late August her son (the one who was killed) was home on a 2 week leave, the mother asked for 2 weeks having explained how many months her son was over in Iraq fighting for his country. The executives here basically refused to give her the two weeks, they said if she took the two weeks she would be fired, so she quit.

      Now that the son she was visiting was KIA and it was on the local ABC news station, you’d think the company’s executives feel anything…nope. They sent out a generic sympathies card, one of those bulk ones.

      And to insult to injury this woman was a decent worker too and wasn’t a problematic employee.

      …and “they” wonder why morale is in the toilet around this place…

      • #3292379

        That would be a good news story…

        by packet spoofer ·

        In reply to I knew the parent of one soldier who just died

        and could probably sink the company or at least get a “please stop talking” severence package from the company…..If I were you and it bugged you as much as things like this bugged me….I would let the local news know about this tragedy…..

    • #3292410

      Gas them

      by silvioandpauly ·

      In reply to Fallujah falls ….

      Why don’t we invent a ‘hashish’ or ‘cannibis’ bomb that explodes and blankets the city with THC vapors.

      Nobody could aim a gun as well, everyone would be laughing, and so hungry to find a pizza shop they’d be too busy to fight.

      • #3294031

        Psychotropic Weapons

        by bfilmfan ·

        In reply to Gas them

        They already exist. Check the Wired article:,1283,55337-2,00.html

        • #3293983

          The funny thing is I wrote a Book along those lines

          by hal 9000 ·

          In reply to Psychotropic Weapons

          About 20 years ago now and have just left it sitting on the shelf.

          It was supposed to be part of a trilogy all of which where written in longhand and then transcribed so other than the original drafts and a backup copy nothing has been done with them as at the time they where considered as far too controversial by the few people that I allowed to read them.


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