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FINDING NEW SOFTWARE IN THE TRASH

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by asdf14

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QUESTION: If i find say 500 original cd's of new unused software that a company disposed of, can I resell the cd's?

These cd's where found along with manuals and serial numbers also, lets say windows 2000 original discs.

I sold some on ebay - and they suspended my account,. why, I found these cd's so legal says they are mine.

What gives Ebay the right to cancel my account because some VERO member gripes. These where found fair and square.

Thanks

So Cal Dumpster Diver

22 replies

by asdf14

IF POLICE CAN GET EVIDENCE OUT OF YOUR TRASH, AND ITS LEGAL FOR THEM TO DO IT BECAUSE THE COURTS SAID THAT ONCE A ITEM GOES INTO THE TRASH IT IS PUBLIC DOMAIN,

And if i find music cd's in the trash I can sell them,. If I find books in the trash I can sell themm too. Why not software?

by tomsal

As stated already you never own software. Furthermore your analogy with reselling trashed books or music cd's is moot. Totally different, no license is issued with a book or music cd. You are merely bound by copyright laws not to illegally reproduce the works. With software you DO buy licenses, aka USE ownership rights.

Finally, Ebay has the right to revoke any account -- as a business btw you have the right to not conduct business with a customer for any reason.

Its not against the law in anyway for me to say "No. You can't conduct business with my company". The only thing I have to be certain of as the business owner is that there is no way someone can say its because of racial, religion, sex or age discrimination.

by john_wills

If I open unused software found in the trash I incur the same obligations which the original purchaser would. If I sell unused and unopened software found in the trash the buyer by opening it incurs the same obligations which he would if had bought it at CompUSA.
However... if I buy software from a retailer, do I have a right to resell it? Is that perhaps excluded in the use agreement, i.e. does the user agree to have bought the software from a licensed retailer?

by generalist

You might be running into a situation where the CDs and manuals represent software that has been installed without opening the shrink wrap.

If you are dealing with multiple machines that need to have identical software packages on them, one way of doing this is to create ONE ideal machine and clone the image of this machine to the others. It saves a lot of time and effort and is legal enough if you have proof that you bought the software. It also results in a lot of unopened packages.

What you found in the trash could then represent software that has been legally installed on one set of machines and is therefore not legal to install on others. You would have to look at the end user license agreement to determine the details.

Technically, you may OWN the CDs and manuals but you don't own the software the serial numbers represent if said software has been installed and registered. It is one of the quirks of the software industry.

Now you might be able to legally sell the manuals as long as you are not selling the CDs.

by thechas

For Microsoft in particular, the EULA is VERY specific about ownership and resale rights.

I suspect that what you found was OEM software.

Per the EULA, the software is ONLY legitimate for the original hardware used by the original purchaser.

Technically, if you sold any Microsoft OEM software, they could sue you for at least $10,000 per copy sold.

Microsoft is VERY aggressive in protecting it's software. In the past, they have shut down ALL e-bay auctions of Windows software.

That said, there is still a shadow market of OEM software by legitimate dealers. To make their auctions legitimate, they include hardware with the OEM software.

Now, if the software you have is retail packages, you may have a legitimate complaint.

Chas

by maxwell edison

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People (or companies) who buy software, don't buy a product, per se, but only the right to use the software according to the terms spelled out in the end user license agreement.

Moreover, most license agreements spell out the conditions for the sale and transfer of the software to any party who was not the original purchaser. And most of the time, the sale and/or transfer of software is not allowed without permission from the issuer of the software. And if it is allowed, which is rare, most of them require a transfer fee be paid.

So if you got permission, in writing, from the people who wrote the software and issue the license for its original use, permission that grants you the right to use it instead of the original purchaser, and if you got a second agreement, in writing, that allowed you to resell the product, and if you paid all required transfer fees, then you're okay.

(You should consider yourself lucky that ebay didn't report you to the BSA. Or maybe they did!)

by oz_media

Finders keepers losers weepers doesn't have any relevance after age 8, sorry.

There are thousands of rules outlining what you find and how t can be used.

If you found software in a dumpster that doesn't mean it is yours now. If you throw out a piece of paper with your credit card number on it, someone is free to dig in your trash and use it, this does not mean it is legal use though. It is still a criminal offence, you ca have the information but are not allowed to use it.

In the case of software, there are several different licencing techniques used, none of them will allow unauthorized installation and use of the software.

As 'generalist' said, these could be boxes from a 2000 node install at a company that is using the current and legal licences, your useage would be illegal. SELLING the software for your own profit would most likely land you in jail.

One post suggested reporting you to the BSA, I know the Boy Scouts of America would be pissed and would probably report you to the Business Association of America.

Lets assume that you sold a copy to an end user with some questions or a support request. That person has bougt tha software from you and it comes in a box with XXXXX's name on it. They then look to that company for support or an upgrade and it is found to be an illegitimate software licence. The company that created the software will soon track you through Ebay and you are facing legalities, not from some end user but a VERY angry software designer/manufacturer, hope you have money for the lawyers because the creators probably do.

Your best bet, stick to moldy sandwiches and used papertowels, leave unopened software alone, you will inevitably get nailed by someone down the line and NO you have no legal position in this matter at all.

Stick to binning in residential areas, you'll have less problems.

by oz_media

I said Business Association of America (BAA?) instead of Business Software Alliance or Business Standards of America.

by thechas

There are significant differences in the EULA for OEM versus retail versions of software. Especially when the software is from Microsoft.

If you are selling retail versions of most Microsoft software, E-Bay will NOT interfere with your transaction.

OEM software on the other hand is NOT intended for resale. There are very specific rules that govern the sale of OEM version software.

If you take a close look at any E-Bay vendor that sells OEM versions of Microsoft products, you will find that a piece of hardware is included as part of the sale.
Technically, that hardware is to be part of the PC that the OEM software is installed on.
Further, if you upgrade your hardware, some portion of the original hardware needs to be part of the upgraded system for the OEM license to still be valid.

Chas

by oz_media

I'm sure, however not positive, that Microsoft would require you to be authorized as a Microsoft vendor in order to sell thier product on a new or etail basis, especially if a large number of boxes are available. Selling some old software may be OK, but I'm sure they would have some price, dealer protection or requirements to sell thier products.

First of all, I'm sure they would reuire at least a dealers invoice to support such an act.

Chas, I hope you and your family have have a safe and happy holiday, I'll talk with you soon I'm sure!

OM

by asdf14

If lets say comp usa, purchased 100 units of adobe ps7, and they tossed 50 units in the trash, not oem, not installed, but just tossed them in the garbage for some god unknown reason.

then the licenses would be still be valid, and since trash is to be disposed of, public domain, then the licenses would be transfered to me , correct?

if not why, not.

by oz_media

I know in Canada, you can dig through someones trash but entering a dumpster behind a company's place of business is trespassing on company property and therefore anything found would be theft.

As to some company buying 100 licences and using 50 copies, nice idea but that didn't happen, I'll promise you that. Any successful company would not dispose of 50 licenced spftware packages, I don't even think MS would do that.

You are digging deep and loooking for SOME shred of justification, it won't happen\. You are wrong and breaking the law with every box sold.

by thechas

First, I have watched as computer store staff dispose of materials. Most stores require that the disposed products be damaged beyond use, if not recognition.

Second, you are not likely to find ANY software in the dumpster of a retailer.

Some products are sold on consignment. The vendor owns the product until it is sold. If the store cannot account for ALL copies of the product, they have to pay the vendor for them.

Other products are sold to the store with return rights.
That is, the manufacture will credit the stores account if they return unsold copies of software.

If you are over 35, you likely bought a few records that had a piece of the corner of the album jacket missing.
These were called cut-outs. The distributor took unsold records back from the stores.
Then, made a cut in the corner of the jacket to signify that the record was a cut-out, and NOT a regular copy.

In many areas, it is illegal to remove ANY item from ANY trash receptacle.

That said, there should be no problem with you selling retail versions of software. So long as you can document where / how you obtained the software.

Chas

by asdf14

soooo... i thought that trespassing had to be posted? and the owner(s) of the property have to file in person. soo looks like you know everything huh oz

by oz_media

Well, it's like I said, IN CANADA.....

State laws vary of course, and I never said this was a law in your area.

As for trespassing, you must post a sign if on private property where a residence isn't clearly visible as part of the property, even then there's not a lot you can do.

You may want a bit of a buffer on your local laws regarding commercial property.

Where I live it is trespassing to even be in a business parking lot without intent to conduct business with the company. This is a way of stopping people parking at your place of business and going across the street to the mall for the afternoon.

You've either got it too easy, which I highly doubt or you've been lucky.

As for being a know it all, coming from a legal family I have MANY local legal tomes at my fingertips. I wasn't the one who asked for opinions on a crime I'd committed. Don't ask if you don't want an answer.

by thechas

In the US, it is usually not illegal to stop in a parking lot of a business unless it is posted. No trespassing signs are NOT common. Employees Only signs are common.

You cross the line into trespassing when you open a lid or go through a fence.

Chas

by oz_media

Although these rules apply in Canada (at least BC) they are generally not enforced without warning. You won't get towed for parking at the wrong business and those that will tow you will generally place signs although not needed.

It is more applicable to loitering, kids smoking dope behind businesses and other mischief on business property after business hours. It gives the cops a valid reason to ask them to move along without the whole "this is public property and I'll go where I want argument".

But dumpster diving would definitely also fall into the same catagory.

Sad discussion anyway Chas, it's really kinda trivial and pointless, and doesn't help anyone resolve anything. (Unlike the political discussions that resolve so many questions :-P)

by thechas

By the way, what lead you to look in this companies trash in the first place?

Chas

by cicle_98

1st off... I hope your Christmas was still good.
I've listed on Ebay since 1998,you should had really checked into it before you listed them there...or listing them at all. How long have you been a member on Ebay?
When me and my wife first started listing we had alot to learn about the "dos" and "you can't sell that here" thing , so really I probably answered my own question. In dealing with said company , you should ask alot of questions - I mean alot, too.
There are discussion boards on Ebay just like this , in that you can get information before you step behind the horse. I would highly suggest you go there for selling information. Good luck to you...

Mike

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