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Friends and Work

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by voldar

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Okay guys, now I know a lot more about what is the meaning of being ?friendly? at the office.
All I have to do is to check the posts on the previous discussion about the e-mail transfer, and in 10 minutes you have all you need to know about how work goes.
And frankly, even if I agree with some posts, with some I really disagree. I don?t think that going at work, staying in your box, didn?t care about the guy from right beside you is something I really enjoy.
I know, you are going to tell me: ?Vlad, it is a tough world out there, you know, you HAVE to not to care about the others, because the OTHERS, don?t worry, they WILL NOT CARE about you!?. And you are maybe very right!
And you know what, I think that, if in a manager position, YOU SHOULD CARE MORE about your team, just simply as that because you want the team to work at 100% or more. And when someone in your team has problems, be sure he will not work as expected, so, you should act.
And guys, I am totally with you when you said: ?Hire another one?, but you know what? Even though I am very well aware that there are graveyards full of ?irreplaceable people?, sometimes is hard to find the right person you need.
Bottom line, I am very well aware that yes, friends should be friends, and I totally agree with: ?you are my friend, but you don?t fit in my team, sorry, lets be just friends?, that there is a perfect distinction between ?friends? and ?work?, but wouldn?t be nice to ?work friendly??
Maybe it is I, coming from some other place where friends did help each other?s, or maybe I didn?t get quite well the messages I read. Anyway, as for me, I learnt a lot from you guys, and for that, I thank you. You are my friends and that is for sure, and I am not joking with this word.

42 replies

by oz_media

That's a very nice thing for you to come out and say. I also see most of the TR groupies as friends, some you respect and enjoy others you may not want at all times, just like life but in cyberspace.

As for employees, I love being close with staff and having a good relationship at work and away from the office, but they will always understand that business is business when it comes to letting people go or laying down the rules.

I really enjoy the variety of people and personalities you get in a large office, perhaps one of the only things I miss since 'breaking free'. The large call centers I was QA in were the best, hundreds of people all having a good time and lots of really positive, contagious energy in the air, I had several interesting relationships with people there.

I still play golf with old office buddys from a couple of different companies and have built some good friendships, but then again there were those friendships that stopped at 4:30 sharp.

I don't think people intended to sound cold towaards staff but I can only say I'm always friendly with my coworkers, I think when it comes to the "company's" interest in it's employees there are few friends though.

Another reflection on an earlier discussion about how people disassociate 'people' as being responsible for the actions of big company's.

by voldar

you are the first who post a response. And yes, it's not that hard to keep a friendly relationship. And, don't understand me wrong (my English maybe), I don't blame anyone because of how they see the "staff", I don't have any reason for doing that, and I don't care at all.
It was just a thought that came out in my mind about the fact that people act as the "rules" of their life lead them to act. Is this true, or not?
When we all (or at least myself) run for a job, carrier etc., sometimes we forget about how it is to ?smile?. Am I wrong? I hope I AM!! It?s like when you can?t see the forest because of the trees.
And yes, it's good you can't see the smile on my face, because I think I don't have a reason to laugh for real, but still, what a heck, smilling never killed someone :))

by oz_media

There are two reasons I decided to be first here.

1) It's a people issue and I am VERY big on people issues and workplace psychology.

2) If I post somewhere, many peers want a piece of me so they will look for something to rebut and the discussion gets responded to.

Either way, in both cases it has worked, I got to talk about people, and others replied under me.

by jdumbrille

Yes, its nice to be friends, work together and share a laugh at the company golf game, rally around the water cooler and joke with each other. It's also my solemn duty as a manager to have the "other" fun: when the chips are down, and productivity isn't there, to crush those so-called friends like the bugs that they are.

by jdumbrille

Yes, its nice to be friends, work together and share a laugh at the company golf game, rally around the water cooler and joke with each other. It's also my solemn duty as a manager to have the "other" fun: when the chips are down, and productivity isn't there, to crush those so-called friends like the bugs that they are.

by jkaras

Good topic, I have had many great friendships with many people from work and some like OZ said ended at quitting time. The truth is we spend more time at work with fellow workers 40+ hours a week than we do with family and friends out side work. You cant turn off your feeling towards others being constantly engaged in good and bad situations depending on one another. The hardest thing is getting to know someone pretty well and either when one of you get promoted or let go that relationship takes on a new dynamic for some stupid reason. Self preservation takes over and you distance your self from the other. This is due to everyones fear of losing their job. They fear this cause they keep quiet on issues that they feel is wrong, but since it wasnt you, keep quiet and stay productive. This has brought out a fake respect that all acknowledge but dont want to talk about it. PR sloagans piliferate the workplace that "its a family workplace" among others to ease customer concerns as well as employee concerns, but we know the truth and accept the little lie.

Do I miss the good times with my old employees? yes, but we have different worlds now and all that we really had in common was work. We all have to get along with others at work everyday, despite our feeling that we may not like them, we just have to get along. Their is the feeling though thru politically correctness and harrassment lawsuits that its not worth your job to get connected and remain neutral and it extends to the way to keep away from your neighbors in your own community. Its called fear that someone is going to take away what you have to profit over your misery. I dont know when exactly that happened but I really dont see going back to yesteryear any time soon, nice world we live in huh, evolved society?

by voldar

That's the fact, and I am 100% with you. But still, I keep asking myself "WHY?" (dumb me). Maybe for a damn good reason I think, but I don't figure it out quite well :)). My mistake.

by highlander718

Well, I think I understand where you're coming from :-), fact is, things are different in "corporate America". I remember the times I used to work in a Eastern European country, personal relations with work coleagues were very very different. We used to go out almost every night, either playing basketball, socccer, beer, parties on weekends, vacations even, lots of "extraworkplace" activity. I left about 4 years ago, and chances were 2 of my former coleagues are now in the same city as me. I still go out more often with them than with my current coleagues ! I still communicate with the other ones, visiting when they come here or I go back ..things like that. I think it's a cultural difference if you want ...
Here, the case is as stated by the previuos members, friends at work, you can eventualy have lunch together, and maybe get close to one of your coleagues, go out once in a while. It's almost never a "team friendship". Maybe it's just the diversity, maybe it's the age, I don't know...

by mrafrohead

it's because people are cowards by nature and afraid to stand up for themselves.

Plain and simple.

I'm not trying to sound like a prick, BUT I am usually the rabble rouser at work, and normally when "management" does something screwed up, I don't have a problem trying to gather the troops to do something about it. But the troops never want to follow through.

Remember, strength in numbers. They can't replace us all at once... Then the managers might have to .... actually work!

Mrafrohead

by voldar

blame that. In contrary, I am glad you did, and hope you'll do all the time. This is "communication", and I like it, of course, as long as I have something to communicate though.

by dc_guy

"It's called fear that someone is going to take away what you have, in order to profit over your misery. I don't know when exactly that happened but I really don't see going back to yesteryear any time soon. Nice world we live in, huh, evolved society?" --- ** Paradigm Shift Alert ** --- It has been observed that what we're experiencing are the death throes of the old industrial civilization. It's got all the signs. Our institutions -- corporations -- have become scavengers rather than producers, gobbling each other up. Short-term thinking prevails: everyone is concerned with surviving the current conditions rather than building a future. Parents consistently make decisions that are irrational when judged from the perspective of the world they're leaving to their grandchildren and great-grandchildren. American corporate leaders destroy American jobs, without stopping to think that those employees were the consumers of their products. Looks a lot like sixth-century Rome or nineteenth-century Constantinople. We've all dropped about two steps on Maslow's Hierarchy. Futurists have long predicted that the internet and the fall from prominence of manufacturing will result in a new civilization with a different organization and a different economic structure. Virtual microcommunities with most commerce being in the trade of virtual commodities and services. Almost no commuting except for the few (and treasured) people who know how to build and maintain houses. The resurgence of the family unit. Decentralization. More gardens, fewer highways. We already have the capacity to feed the whole human race and raise it above a subsistence economy, our problem is that we can't get the food and survival gear from where it's produced to where it's needed. If we stop squandering our resources and infrastructure on building cars, pumping gasoline, driving to jobs we hate in huge buildings that displaced low-income housing, and shipping artifacts of conspicuous consumption from countries that can't afford to buy them to countries that don't really need them, a world similar to the one you're mourning may be reborn. Homo sapiens is an extremely social species like almost all primates. It is in our nature to care about each other. These lives we are living are unnatural and cause us tremendous stress. We will not collectively tolerate these conditions forever. The Industrial Revolution created a world in which each generation felt progressively more ill at ease despite the wonders of mass production. The Post-Industrial Revolution may normalize that world into one in which we get to keep the artifacts of civilization that really matter (does anyone actually need six pairs of designer sneakers?), while at the same time reverting to lifestyles that are more suited to our nature. Your children may reexperience true friendship. With a little luck, your grandchildren almost certainly will.

by oz_media

That's exactly why I have MANY aquaintances a but few true friends. I prefer the grounded people who understand what it means to be a true friend ror neighbour as opposed to the shalow and material "let me by" attitude I see in the city.

God this outdoorsy life is absolutely the best. I get all my fill on the 'big coty' by choice and have a home that is a virtual holiday. I am so much more easy going again and love my day again. I always thought I was enjoying the rat race but once I escaped I found the people, the attitudes, the friends and community that I had forgotten as I strove to win the game.

I find my days seem three times longer now (a good thing when it means enjoying the day), and I've found TRUE friends and people who care about each other again.

by voldar

Indeed, friends are so few ..., in fact I can say "be happy to have 1 or 2 real friends in your life and you'll be good". If you got more then 3 you should ask yourself about what "friend" means to you. Sounds like s...it but, our days life is so much showing us this fact.

by mrafrohead

I can say that I hope you're right because what you are saying sounds like it is supposed to be.

I can say that the direction we're headed right now is just gross. Everyone stabbing each other in the back, and not really caring about it. I just don't get it...

Mrafrohead

by maecuff

There are sooo many people who actually get off on f*$%ing people over. I am constantly amazed by this. Individual people, I love dearly, people as a group, I can't stand.

by littledragon

Hey, DC_Guy, I think you are on the right track. Society is evolving into something new, and hopefully the vision you paint of more gardens and less highway will part of that process. It sounds good to me!

by voldar

I think is definitely the age or the diversity :)).
I don't want to complain here, is it what I chose to be the best for myself at a certain moment, and I am happy about, I never thought other way. My thread was just a little, very little voice that wanted to know if we might be back like we used to be. And as I see, we may and we can. That's the most important thing. The rest, I don't mind, as long as Pandora?s box has still the hope inside ;).

by mrafrohead

I would say that friends and work are a necessity. If you can't find a work place where your co-workers are your friends, you may be in the wrong place of work.

Think of it like this. You are at work and with your co-workers (awake) literally MORE than you are with your own family. So why not take the time to become friends.

Granted there will always be a few people that just aren't the friendly types, but they can be excused and just be civil with them...

That's my two cents, please add it to the jar.

Mrafrohead

by voldar

read THAN 3 and not "then 3". Sorry, typo and lack of that button to re-edit the thread! Uffff!!

by maxwell edison

.
I think the only true friend I ever had "at work" was when I was a teenager, and a guy at the corner gas station hired me to pump gas, clean windshields and change oil. He taught me so much about cars - and life - that by the time I left his employ (when I joined the Air Force) I was overhauling engines and drinking beer with the best of 'em. He taught me about women, how to treat customers, how to turn a car 180 degrees on a dime, how to get out of trouble, and was more like a big brother than a boss. His gas station was the first place I stopped when I went home on leave, and I still play golf with him 30 years later, even though he's now retired and lives 600 miles away.

I have a couple of other great friends with whom I visit and talk on a regular basis, but I never worked with either one of them.

I think being a friend and being friendly are as different as night and day. Other than the one I mentioned, I don't think I would consider anyone I've ever worked with a friend, although I've been friendly with almost everyone. Sure, there's the occasional lunch, or round of golf, or poker game with them, but if I ever quit (and I think about it daily), I won't miss any of them, and they'll be no more to me than a part of my past.

Being "friendly" with co-workers certainly makes your work day more pleasant, but they sure don't have to be "friends".

by tomsal

...however, work is still work -- business is business.

At one time I worked with my own brother and my dad at the same place -- so trust me I know what it is like to really care for co-workers.

Also, I do joke around and laugh with several people in the office. But I'm not their bud. I'm not their pal. I don't hang out with them (nor do I really care too in most cases - to be honest). So yeah be respectful and be friendly -- but to pull in co-workers very close to you like great friends in your personal life.. no way.

Not a good idea.

If that sounds hard, so be it. Such is life.

Think I'm heartless? Ask my two best friends how well I treat them, (hint: like gold).

by dc_guy

There was a time when the definition of "community" included "working together toward the common good." At the dawn of civilization, when villages began growing into cities and "trade" became "commerce," people were still living very much like our Mesolithic and Neolithic ancestors, in tribes of modest size. The lives of all were intertwined and no one could help being close to everyone else. Even in the pre- and early Industrial Era, it was the rule rather than the exception for co-workers to be friends. They lived in close proximity, their children grew up together, they spent their scarce free time together because they were still a community. (Sure, every group of friends has a couple of jerks. That will probably never change. Our social instinct is strong and the tribe even cares for its jerks.) The Industrial Era, which quickly morphed into the Golden Age of the Corporation, changed all that. It forced us to put our loyalty to the Corporation above our loyalty to each other. It grew our cities into dysfunctional monstrosities that deliver luxury on the material level but poverty on the social level. They thwart rather than encourage friendship, by making it difficult either to socialize with our co-workers outside of the workplace or to develop more than superficial acquaintance with our neighbors. A large body of feel-good commentary says that we've adapted to this. Individual entrepreneurs thumbing their noses at each other. Smaller families spending less time together. More solitary recreational activities. The "virtual" friendships of the internet. Jerks being celebrated rather than tolerated. I don't believe it. It took Homo sapiens millions of years to evolve social instincts beyond our closest relatives: the chimps and gorillas who still live in tribes of fewer than one hundred. It took tens of thousands of years to evolve from maintaining a sense of kinship within a Mesolithic tribe of a couple of hundred to the first cities of a couple of thousand. Several thousand more years to the point where people seem genuinely comfortable in what are now barely considered cities at all: "towns" of ten or twenty thousand. And our pundits think that in just a century or two we have both reversed and accelerated that ability to evolve our social instincts? That we have evolved a feeling of inner peace living among total strangers, working side-by-side with competitors (whom our not-so-distant ancestors would have run off or killed), having few (or no) friends and spending very little time with them, being alienated from our blood relatives, with our only vestige of socialization being text-only communication with people we've never seen, heard, touched, or smelled? Sorry, I'm not buying it. I don't believe that we are even close to social or emotional equilibrium in this version of the brave new world. Western civilization has not achieved a stable state. The pressure to change is great and change will happen. Homo sapiens is a highly social species and a few millennia of self-imposed "progress" is not long enough for our instincts to adapt to the social institutions into which that progress has thrust us. Our destiny is to have friends, and one day we will once again have them, no matter what the cost to the Corporations who mistakenly believe that they are in charge of our destiny.

by maecuff

I have a staff of 9 people, and yes, I would agree, I couldn't call any of them my close personal friend, it would create too much chaos. However, I attend their kids birthday parties, help them move, etc. and truly enjoy their company. That doesn't mean that they get to hear all my tales of woe or know my most personal secrets, I have other friends for that and two of those friends work for the same company I do. They don't report to me or work in or for my department.

And now that I've gotten way off track from what I originally wanted to ask is this, why is business, business? How come we all just buy in to that? There are so many reasons why we do the things we do and I think we just swallow these reasons as justification because it's easy. Who says?? I have to lay someone off. It sucks and I hate it. And I've heard, well, business is business. What the hell does that mean? It's certainly easy to hide behind that. Is that supposed to make me feel better? Is that supposed to placate the person who is losing their job? I can't be that impersonal.

(I'm having a really bad day...does anyone mind if I rant incoherently?)

by tomsal

that business is business. I think its kind of like saying "life is life". Believe me I *hate* when I need to contribute to voting on canning someone (we do things by committees here, I'm on the 8 person Staffing committee).

There's nothing happy about seeing someon who is a fundamentally decent human being, with kids to feed , etc. lose their job. But if they don't produce what are we to do as managers? Just ignore it. Right there I just explained...Business is Business.

Today sucks for me too btw, I so hey vent or rant away...I'll probably chew my friend's ear off tonight..but hey we vent to each other all the time...lol

there was a time when I was less jaded about being friends at work...years of deception, backstabbing and the like have forever swayed me from that concept. This is why I firmly believe you are better off not getting over attached to "friends" at work.

by oz_media

LOL you go mrafrohead! I've had it out with you in the past and you were pretty good at it, but that seems so long ago now. Nice to see you stand tall and shout loud.

Keep it up and die with your boots on.

by mrafrohead

Same with you man. Funny for our 'history' in the past I'd have to admit, should we meet ever I owe yer arse a nice cold frosty beer, or twelve. :)

Mrafrohead

by oz_media

I'd be happy to have a beer with you any day, as I would MANY of the fine folk here at TR. It would be cool to put it all together one day, but logistics and cash are a bit of a hurdle.

by oz_media

Well again, we se that the ego takes over a persons true feelings and stands out as an unwanted bully. Like you said maecuff, people as individuals are great, in groups they seem to lose it. I think this is due to swellls in population. Everyone is fine until they need to stand out in a crowd. People are not used to having their space 'invaded' or having to share spacethat they've had to themselves before. This makes people selfish and self centered. Get a group together and it's battle of the most obnoxious until one stand alone, usually covered in crap.
Having kids, you must see this in another sense as they feel a need to fight for attention no matter how well you divide time between them, one will always be pushing for more attention, on the flipside, children raised without siblings often get too much attention and don't learn good social skills until later in life.

I think the ego is a major factor here, and the greater th epopulation, the stronger the ego needs to be in order to be seen.

Where I live now, we have acres of land between our homes, we have endless seas and it makes you feel like you have all the room in the world. People are VERY humbled and helpful and it has that small community feel to it.

Perhaps why people always see the country or seaside as an escape? Less people and more room to think.

by maecuff

It is true, life is life. I try to explain to my kids all the time that 'fair' has nothing to do with life. Life is neither fair or unfair, it just is what it is. We have very little control over 'life'. Business, however, is not the same thing. We humans get to control that. At least to a larger degree than we get to control life. I think too many of us sit back and listen to the little cliched sayings "it's just business, not personal". Bullshit. It is personal. And that is saying is something to hide behind. We accept this type of thing all of the time. It's easier. No upsetting actions to take, no need to disrupt the apple cart with a new take on life.. we can explain the crappy way people get treated with a few trite sayings.

Like I said, I'm having a bad day that's keeps descending. Could someone please say something that will piss me off so I can take all my anger out on you?

by jkaras

Your annoying little rant is ruining my day and possibly my weekend!! You should quit and go back to raising babies since you cant cut it. I'm sure your a horrible driver and hold up the line at the grocery mart arguing about a .50 coupon in the express lane. Your fat, I can just tell, go on a diet or get your stomach stapled. Your five year old that displays intelligence probably comes from your husband and the annoying teenager takes after you.

P.S. Feel better. I await you chastizing, you may call me pinata.

by maecuff

That was GOOD!! I actually laughed. Of course, you realize, I have to kill you now..

by maecuff

Did I not just say that life isn't fair or unfair?? It just is what it is. Quitcher bitchin..

Man, that feels good.

by voldar

That's an idea. We should have one day per year with this topic "you suck!" so that we "cool down our spirits".
Don't know what TR would think about that, probably it will not agreee - geeeeeeeeee, I wonder why :P :))

Any ... maecuf did not do what you expected to do so, I will do!

HEY YOUUUUUU PINAAAATTTTAAAAAA!!!!

(feel better? :P)

by oz_media

For years I sit here and get corrected and conedmned for my offbeat rants. I have been told to clean up my attitude to wards others and not pick on Americans.

readig through the posts, I see a title YOU SUCK, and it's directed at out friend maecuff. I put on the gloves and stretch out only to find it was a completely wanted and acceptable flame.

WHY DO I MISS THESE THINGS!??

Not fair!!

by dc_guy

Is there a pattern here? Nice people have to really suck it all in to be successful in today's corporate environment? A mere thirty years ago poor performers and terminations weren't handled this way. And this segues right into another rant I've been posting a lot, which is that the job of first-line supervisor has disappeared. Supervisors spent a lot more time with their subordinates than today's managers do and they were much more adept at training, motivating, observing, and disciplining them than today's managers are. The two conditions reinforced each other: supervisors passed their people skills on by example and by showing how good it is to be on the receiving end, so the next generation of supervisors and managers had those skills and knew it was wise to practice them. Of course we had poor performers back then. People were lazy, dishonest, stupid, depressed, or in the wrong line of work. But we figured it out long before it became a crisis that had to be escalated to an executive level. We motivated some, retrained some, got some into therapy, found better positions for some, and kicked a few butts out. By the time someone was proven hopeless we all knew it and the termination was no surprise. We felt bad about it but we didn't feel like we had betrayed them or ourselves. As for being blind-sided by a layoff dictated from above, those things simply didn't happen as often as they do today. Even the executives had been brought up the company ladder with mentors teaching them people skills along the way. They did a better job of running their companies and didn't find themselves so often pushed into corners. But also, the corporate world had not degenerated into the pit of mutual destruction that it is today. It wasn't yet so necessary to destroy the competition in order to succeed. Which circles back to my point. In just one generation, life in the workplace has deteriorated into conditions that make a lot of us downright sick. Chalk up some of it to the omnipotent workstation and the Paradigm Shift. But that Paradigm Shift encompasses a lot more than new levels of automation: The Era of the Corporation has reached its zenith and has nowhere to go. Sure it can lurch along for a few more decades gobbling up China and Malaysia and India, and perhaps the whole planet. But it will eventually reach the level that it has reached here: no place left to go, and without growth the model collapses.

by oz_media

If I was allowed to, I'd give you what for I'll tell ya!
Actually maybe my mum would let me if I did my homework.

Oh screw it, screw you , screw your theories and concepts. Screw the world!! AH HA HA HAHAHAHA!!!!
WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!! WOOOOOOPIE YAHOOOOOO!!!!!
You're right that does feel better! Thanks, you're so much fun sometmes. :-)

by maecuff

I swear, posting here today has been my highlight. It's almost time to go home and I have a date with Jose Cuervo... And if you think I'm fun now..you should see me with a lamp shade on my head.

by oz_media

Where do I sign up. You should know by now that I am not a serious person.

I'll probably end up under the table too, but then again, that's where most of my friends hang out. I met a nice girl under there last week too!

I wanna open a bar called "Under the table" that would be cool! We used to have a family pub called the Boxer (still do in England but not here anymore)we raised boxers and they hung out in the pub and kept the guests happy.

by mrafrohead

Maybe we can talk TR into footing the bill ;p

Okay just kidding, but it sounded good when I was thinking it. Till I got to the part of where I could drink them into bankruptcy...

Wocka wocka.

by oz_media

A local radio station has a 'dick of the week' each Wednesday. People call in and say for example, "The jerk who threw his coffee cup out of the window at 41st and Fraser this morning", these people know who they are yet cannot call in to rebut it.

We could have a jerk of the week or "KEEG" where you can say for example "Oz for his comments about my complaint about outsourcing"

No defense is allowed and you just have to deal with it until next week.

Somehow I see this being abused but it would be easier to save up your flames and just add your comments to the KEEG thread.

Actually even as I type this I see how really dumb it sounds.

Oh well, there's your first KEEG and I'll wear it proudly. God I'm a knob sometimes!

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