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  • #2257237

    God, I love you Brits

    Locked

    by jck ·

    From the BBC News website –

    [i]Last Updated: Thursday, 10 August 2006, 11:37 GMT 12:37 UK

    ‘Airlines terror plot’ disrupted

    A plot to blow up planes in flight from the UK to the US and commit “mass murder on an unimaginable scale” has been disrupted, Scotland Yard has said.
    It is thought the plan was to detonate explosive devices smuggled in hand luggage on to as many as 10 aircraft.

    Police are searching premises after 21 people were arrested. Home Secretary John Reid said they believed the “main players” were accounted for.

    High security is causing delays at all UK airports.

    The threat level to the UK has been raised by MI5 to critical after the arrests in London, High Wycombe and Birmingham.

    Critical threat level – the highest – means “an attack is expected imminently and indicates an extremely high level of threat to the UK”.

    Three US airlines are believed to have been targeted.

    Mr Reid said had the attack gone ahead it would have caused a loss of life of “unprecedented scale”.

    He said they were “confident” the main players were in custody, but neither the police nor government are “in any way complacent”.

    BBC security correspondent Gordon Corera said the plot was thought to have involved a series of “waves” of simultaneous attacks, targeting three planes each time.

    He also said the plan “revolved around liquids of some kind”.

    “Officials say the explosives would have been sophisticated and extremely effective,” our correspondent said.

    Meanwhile, Heathrow Airport has been closed to all incoming flights that are not already in the air, while several outbound services have been cancelled.

    The airport is crammed with thousands of passengers, while at Stansted more than 2,000 people are queuing to pass through customs.

    Metropolitan Police Deputy Commissioner Paul Stephenson said the alleged plotters had intended “mass murder on an unimaginable scale”.

    “We are confident that we have disrupted a plan by terrorists to cause untold death and destruction and to commit, quite frankly, mass murder,” he said.

    “We believe that the terrorists’ aim was to smuggle explosives on to aeroplanes in hand luggage and to detonate these in flight. We also believe that the intended targets were flights from the United Kingdom to the United States of America.”

    Police had spoken to a “good number of community leaders to make them aware that a major operation was under way,” he added.

    Head of the Met’s anti-terrorist branch Deputy Assistant Commissioner Peter Clarke said the investigation had had “global dimensions” and had seen an “unprecedented level” of surveillance.

    The decision to take action had been taken on Wednesday night, he added.

    According to BBC sources the “principal characters” suspected of being involved in the plot were British-born. There are also understood to be links to Pakistan.[/i]

    A big thanks to you British for a fine job

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    • #3276917

      AMEN!

      by tig2 ·

      In reply to God, I love you Brits

      A fine job and our gratitude to the UK!

      Will this ever stop?

    • #3276902

      just a couple of points….

      by gadgetgirl ·

      In reply to God, I love you Brits

      1. There was no way I was going to put “You’re Welcome”, that’s not for me to do, but you are, anyways.

      2. Have you seen the list of “allowed” hand luggage?

      In case you haven’t… it’s here…

      http://tinyurl.com/jzvl4

      Two points: Just tell me WHICH female is not going to be embarrassed all to hell walking around the departure side of an airport showing off her tampons in a clear sided carrier bag?? Ok, we know you know we use ’em, but do we HAVE to give you ABSOLUTE CONFIRMATION that we’re needing them RIGHT NOW? Sheesh. Surely a sealed unit/pack, sealed by a member of security would be enough???

      And: they’re allowing prescription meds, yes, ok. What about over-the-counter meds? Personally, I take medication which can be either; I actually buy it over the counter in a large box, as the limitation on the number you can get on prescription isn’t cost effective. There is no indication at all if they can be taken as hand luggage.

      Don’t get me wrong, here, I’m not knocking the Boys in Blue, they’re doing a wonderful job, and I’m proud of them and that they stopped anything this horrendous coming to fruition. But considering MI5’s “Critical Level” has always been in place, and the hand luggage option was always there, why hasn’t a more practical or hands-on approach been taken?

      oh, and it may amuse you to know that although everyone in the queues is miffed but calm, there are one or two who had a shouting session at airport staff this morning, sometime between 0200 and 0600 UK BST…..

      some men from “over the pond” insisted on their right to take their laptops as hand luggage, as well as their mobile phones and briefcases…

      they didn’t succeed…..!!

      London is still hardest hit, currently Heathrow closed to everything but planes in the air at the moment, Gatwick on restrictions, same as Stansted and Luton.

      Being in the North has it’s advantages….. delays only, even though flights to London are grounded (well, we have trains, anyway, terrorists won’t stop us)

      But, yes, the Boys in Blue did a fine job – and are still doing so.

      GG

      • #3276875

        Yeah…it sucks…

        by jck ·

        In reply to just a couple of points….

        But, it’s better than they have in Israel where all the airport police are armed with automatic weapons (because they’re military) and are not afraid at any moment to stop you, and search everything you have.

        As for the feminine product thing…better for them to show you have those…than…well…let’s say battery powered devices 😀

        • #3209602

          you’ve never seen an episode of Airport?

          by mjwx ·

          In reply to Yeah…it sucks…

          British Airport security carry Automatic’s and so do the Australians. I was once in line at the metal detector not so long ago when the x-ray detected something (I dont know what it was) in an American man’s bag (could tell by the accent), 4 AFP brandishing MP5’s almost immediatly decendend apon the guy and said “you’ll have to come with us sir”.

          Something tells me this guy was not a terrorist but probably had something in his bag that wasnt allowed on an Aussie flight. Like in the Airport episode, a texan was traveling to the UK with bullets in his bag (quiet accidentilly). There is a large list of thing you are not allowed to take on a plane, from lighters to Amunition. Lighters and aerosol cans get confiscated at the metal detector/x-ray station as do scisors, matches, nail-files and so on. Things like bottles of flamables may warent a visit from security, so I’m guessing this guy had a bullet or bottle of metholated spritis.

          Airport security is nothing new here, they have had armories and police contigents for some time.

        • #3209479

          yeah…seen it…

          by jck ·

          In reply to you’ve never seen an episode of Airport?

          Used to watch it a lot.

          I love seeing the drunk idiots. I’ve always prayed I would get to come to the rescue of some cute gate attendant when one of those idiots goes off.

          But yeah…security all over the world at airports is more military-ish than here…we have to worry about hurting peoples’ feelings here in the USA, you know.

        • #3230058

          thats why

          by mjwx ·

          In reply to yeah…seen it…

          they always call you “sir” when draging you off.

      • #3276857

        You think that is bad GG?

        by jdclyde ·

        In reply to just a couple of points….

        I remember when I was about 10, my bud HAD to go to the store to get his mom some. :0

        She gave us money for food if we did it. So the lowdown was I would take them to the counter and he would pay. I waited till the store was empty and no one was at the counter, grabbed them, set ’em on the counter and walked away. SAFE! 😀 My bud had to sit there and pay. Double bag that please…..

        This was twice as hard on him as he was always the shy type!

      • #3276817

        At least you have updated lists

        by maevinn ·

        In reply to just a couple of points….

        I’m supposed to fly on Saturday, with a laptop, and can’t find a durned thing to indicate if it needs to be checked. Water? Yes, can’t have that…But the TSA site here doesn’t meantion laptops or other electronics. I’ll probably end up finding a larger duffel to stow it and my other stuff into, since I know I won’t be working on the flight.

        Edit to add: And I too am thankful that tragedy was averted!

        • #3276795

          Mavyn

          by gadgetgirl ·

          In reply to At least you have updated lists

          At the moment, this is predominantly UK to US flights. I would think something more forthcoming and concrete would show your side sometime tomorrow.

          Keep checking the BBC news site, and if you go onto the link I put in my previous post, that actually takes you to the Department of Transport site, and the actual advisory.

          Where are you flying to? You need to ensure if it’s London, especially Heathrow, that things are back on track there.

          Let me know if I can be of any help.

          Safe home, anyway

          GG

        • #3276792

          Mavyn, here, quick!

          by gadgetgirl ·

          In reply to At least you have updated lists

          GWB should be on your screens NOW with the latest….. should have started about 5 mins ago….

          (around 1700 hrs UK BST)

          GG

        • #3276751

          Wups!

          by maevinn ·

          In reply to Mavyn, here, quick!

          It’s a domestic flight, so the Brit restrictions aren’t valid. Hopefully they’ll get everything updated before the COB Friday at the latest!

          Thanks for the offer! 🙂

        • #3276734

          TSA

          by tig2 ·

          In reply to Wups!

          Theoretically, the TSA will be updating their website periodically as things settle to keep passengers in the know. http://www.tsa.gov/

          What I have been hearing today, no liquids or gels, no electronic devices. Your best bet is to check everything you can.

          Do yourself a favour and pack toiletries in a ziploc and then into the case. The hold isn’t pressurised so may have a negative effect on shampoos and such.

          Interesting side note- barrel prices are falling. The impact of this may be a return to gasoline less than $3 a gallon.

        • #3276676

          A…

          by now left tr ·

          In reply to TSA

          cunning way to reduce oil prices that is!

        • #3209634

          I’ve been watching…

          by maevinn ·

          In reply to TSA

          And they’re still just talking about liquids. Whatever–I’m checking everything but my purse.

          Think they’ll argue with me about Dramamine? Not prescription, but they’ll regret parting me from it, I promise!

        • #3209626

          Hard to call

          by tig2 ·

          In reply to I’ve been watching…

          And I would look again tomorrow as things may change from how they are handling it right now. They have already done that a couple of times today as the information gets out. Checking everything but your purse is your best plan. And let us know that you got home again safely too.

          I am so glad that I no longer fly for a living. Don’t think I could stand the daily changing rules and never knowing what to manage to.

        • #3209430

          Yes, ma’am!

          by maevinn ·

          In reply to I’ve been watching…

          I’ll probably stop in in between as well.

          My Mom used to fly out on Monday and back on Friday, about 3 weeks each month. I couldn’t do that–I hate flying. I acknowledge that it is the quickest way to travel long distances, but I hate it. Hence the Dramamine. 😀

      • #3209514

        Some don’t get it

        by mark miller ·

        In reply to just a couple of points….

        oh, and it may amuse you to know that although everyone in the queues is miffed but calm, there are one or two who had a shouting session at airport staff this morning, sometime between 0200 and 0600 UK BST…..

        some men from “over the pond” insisted on their right to take their laptops as hand luggage, as well as their mobile phones and briefcases…

        they didn’t succeed…..!!

        By “over the pond” I assume you mean Americans?

        It’s frustrating to me, as an American, that there are so many of my fellow countrymen/women who don’t understand the terrorist threat. Not that they’re a majority (I don’t know). They hate having to take off their jackets, take off their shoes, sometimes submit to security personnel checking them over to make sure they don’t have an explosive vest on, etc. Personally I’m thankful for the security measures. IMO they’re doing what they think is necessary to keep passengers safe. What some object to is that security treats everyone equally. No racial/ethnic profiling is allowed. So they’ll even do security checks on old White grandmas, who most people would think are the least likely terrorist threats. If people don’t want to submit to that, think it’s too humiliating, fine. Take an alternate mode of transportation that’s not such a big target and take your chances that way.

        • #3209370

          Absolutely!

          by jellimonsta ·

          In reply to Some don’t get it

          Minor inconvenience in the grand scheme of things.

        • #3209369

          Exactly

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Some don’t get it

          It’s like cameras in the workplace or public places, if you are not doing anything wrong, who cares? Take my picture, you can even take the vids home and get your jollies in the privacy of your mom’s basement. I just don’t care.

          I hate people at parties with cameras, at gigs, backstage clickers etc. Those, more personal, times are when I am usually doing something I wouldn’t want broadcast or recorded.

          You can randomly snap my pic in a public place while I am being a saint, but please don’t take my picture at a party where I am letting loose. I don’t know how many pictures I’ve seen where I am either covering my face or offering a one finger wave (those don’t get shown to most people and never get broadcast).

          As for airports, whatever you have to do to increase my saftely and protect those around me is just fine by me, I can leave a bit early, take a deep breath and chill in a lineup, its not that bad. People expect security but don’t want to suffer any inconveniences due to it, that’s WHY people slip through in the first place, too many conveniences are provided.

    • #3276849

      Saw this earlier today….

      by jellimonsta ·

      In reply to God, I love you Brits

      I was on a Continental flight between Birmingham (UK) and Newark (US) 2 weeks ago… looks like I was pretty lucky! :0

      • #3276786

        Gives you a chill, huh?

        by jdclyde ·

        In reply to Saw this earlier today….

        When I was 12, I was walking around at the mall. Hopped on the bus and went home. By the time I got home there had been a fatal shooting right were I had been hanging out 20 minutes earlier.

        Guy came in and shot his wife 22 times, set the gun down and layed there until the cops came and took him away. The put him in the loonie bin, where he later tried to sue the state for loss of income because his wife was supporting him at the time.

        • #3276768

          Actually….

          by jellimonsta ·

          In reply to Gives you a chill, huh?

          I did not get a chill when I heard… my wife on the other hand (she’s a bit of a sissy)!! :p
          I have had a few occasions as a kid and young adult in the UK where I had to walk home because they shut down the city center and stopped all buses because of IRA threats. I am a little used to it I guess.
          Your mall story reminded me of when I went to a local bar as a crazy 18 years old, looking for the guy who glassed my Dad in the face while he was having a drink with my Mom. After throwing about 10-15 people against the wall and interrogating them, my friends kicked me out of the bar and sent me home. Around 10 minutes after that the guy that did it was at the bar trying to find me and shooting holes in the ceiling with a hand gun. :0
          Mind you, guns were not very prevalent in the UK 14 years ago, so that was supposedly a pretty big deal.
          The guy is your mall definitely belongs in the loonie bin if he is trying to sue for loss of income after killing his wife. He’s a winner that guy!! :p

        • #3276696

          Similar story

          by w2ktechman ·

          In reply to Gives you a chill, huh?

          I went to 7-11 with a friend some years back. This guy kept eying me and lightly pushing/glaring at me. No idea why, I usually would have said/done something but I was thirsty and knee deep in rebuilding my motorcycle.
          My fiend had a police scanner with him as well. I lived 5 min. away from that store.
          The gut was still trying to instigate something when my friends and I left. By the time we got back home, a guy fitting his description, open fired in the parking lot with a semi auto. 12 shots. This was broadcast over the scanner.
          Although nobody was killed, 3 were wounded. I always thought that it was a good idea that I blew this one off rather than confronting him.

    • #3276735

      Hear! Hear!

      by techexec2 ·

      In reply to God, I love you Brits

      Outstanding job!

    • #3276720

      Yet another simple solution

      by m_a_r_k ·

      In reply to God, I love you Brits

      The U.S. and its allies have several hundred warehouses stocked full of nuclear weapons. Why don’t we use those weapons for something other than collecting dust and wasting taxpayers’ money for their maintenance and security? I say we should start somewhere in the northwestern part of Africa and lay a blanket of mushroom clouds from there to the eastern edge of Pakistan, hop over India and Bangladesh and then unleash the mushroom farmers again and continue on until the eastern side of Indonesia. Problem solved.

      • #3276699

        Never spank a baby,

        by x-marcap ·

        In reply to Yet another simple solution

        With an Axe. That is what you are suggesting. I suggest controlled violence that makes an opponent want to cooperate. Or Die. But it must be 100% certain. Make the Kim Jong Il types sleep very lightly.

        Shoot his hat off 3 or 4 times. At different intervals, then let him no no more near misses if he ever bothers us or our allies… If he doesn’t behave, then use whatever means necessary… When AD I liked knives

      • #3276694

        So, you are in favor of mass Genocide

        by w2ktechman ·

        In reply to Yet another simple solution

        The reprocussions would be far more than just blowing up a few nukes. There will be global climate changes that will occur faster than life can adapt. Not to mention more radiation and more instability in the atmosphere itself. After a few hundred nukes go off, the world would be mostly inhospitable to life itself.

        So before we consider this, we would need to build underground bunkers to live in for a few years at least.
        But wait, the Mid-East already has many underground bunkers… So, we would effectively kill ourselves and allow the terrorists to rule the world.

        • #3209639

          Yes

          by m_a_r_k ·

          In reply to So, you are in favor of mass Genocide

          They want to wipe us out so we need to get to them before they get to us. They’ve stated this desire many times. It’s a fundamental part of their existence. It’s us or them. LOL And yeah, I know the environmental chaos that would be created from as little as a dozen nuclear weapons. I was being facetious in my post. I figured that was obvious. But hell, if we kill ourselves and let the terrorists rule what’s left of the world after our nukes decimate it, that would be fine with me. I’ve said before and I’ll say again that I’d rather be dead than live under fundamentalist Muslim oppression and their idiotic rules. Besides, I’m too damn handsome to have to hide my face beneath a stupid burqa. hah!

        • #3209617

          Lol

          by w2ktechman ·

          In reply to Yes

          ok, I agree that they should be destroyed. But, not all Muslim’s are terrorists, and the Nuke’em approach is really ridiculous.
          they need to be weeded out and excecuted. And if it gives more intel for weeding them out better, some forms of torture are appropriate.. Let me clear that up though, Some Forms. Like the ones that our US soldiers got busted for. I really dont think of that as torture, just teasing a bit…. but since it is classified as torture, then I say some forms are acceptable.

        • #3209593

          I’ve said it before, were fighting them all wrong.

          by mjwx ·

          In reply to Lol

          We shouldn?t send entire armies to kill the inept guards of the terrorist leaders whist the leaders escape and sleep comfortably. We should have sent infiltrators and assassins to take out the Al-queda leadership where they are most comfortable.

          Make the terrorists afraid, that?s how you win against them. Killing one terrorist leader is worth 1 hundred thousand terrorist troops. When leaders aren?t safe they lose popular support (which is what we need).

        • #3209583

          Unfortunately…

          by m_a_r_k ·

          In reply to I’ve said it before, were fighting them all wrong.

          …we play by a humanitarian set of rules. The terrorists don’t have a humanitarian bone in their disgusting inhuman bodies. I agree that the only way to fight them is play by their rules. Seems like there is more worldwide condemnation against the U.S. whenever we cross that humanitarian line than there is against a terrorist gang when they murder dozens of innocent people on their way to find out that the story of 70-something virgins is nothing but hogwash.

        • #3209536

          I dare say M_a_r_k you seemed to have missed my point

          by mjwx ·

          In reply to Unfortunately…

          which was about methodology rather than motivation.

          To use an analogy, sending an army to fight terrorism is a good as using a battle axe to perform brain surgery.

          If you care to use the cancer analogy for the mid-east (I personally don?t but others do so I’ll run with it) You cant remove cancer with a battle axe and sledge hammer and reading in to the cancer analogy you want the patient (the mid-east) to survive.

        • #3209529

          mjwx: And that is exactly what Israel is doing

          by neilb@uk ·

          In reply to Unfortunately…

          With full support from the US and the UK they are applying the “battleaxe” solution to Hezbollah. should we all act surprised when it doesn’t work?

        • #3209423

          Same applies to Iraq

          by m_a_r_k ·

          In reply to Unfortunately…

          It’s also what the U.S. is half-heartedly doing in Iraq. Mighty armies have been stopped cold many times throughout history by small guerilla forces. So what is happening in Lebanon and Iraq should be no surprise. The only way to win a war like that is to apply a heavy hand, which implies that you can put yourself above public opinion. Recent examples include German oppression of Europe in WWII, the Soviet Union’s rule over Eastern Europe, Serbian oppression of Kosovo, and Saddam Hussein in Iraq.

        • #3209398

          M_a_r_k: All truly good people

          by neilb@uk ·

          In reply to Unfortunately…

          to model your actions on. Not.

          Neil

          Serious(ish) post so I put your underscores in but don’t expect that every time! :p

        • #3230365

          Exactly my point, NeilBee

          by m_a_r_k ·

          In reply to Unfortunately…

          Only truly bad people like the aforementioned Hitler, Soviet dictators, Milosevic and Hussein have the will and lack the moral character to be able to us the harsh means necessary to put down a popular insurgency.

        • #3209584

          Weeding the ba$tards out

          by m_a_r_k ·

          In reply to Lol

          That’s the problem with trying to weed them out. They grow radicals like weeds over there. Have you ever tried ridding your yard of all the weeds. It’s impossible. They’ll keep on regenerating and if you don’t keep them under control, you’ll soon have a whole world full of terrorists…er, I mean a whole yard full of weeds.

      • #3209594

        Mark I’d hate to reign on your parade, but

        by mjwx ·

        In reply to Yet another simple solution

        The radioactive fallout from just 10 Nukes would kill everyone east of Beijing and west of Paris via wind and water currents. 20 would turn the world into a radioactive ball which no-one but cockroaches and door-to-door salesmen would survive. Radiation from modern nukes cannot be contained and atmospheric conditions would spread radioactive particles everywhere.

        The ones at the epicentres would be the lucky ones, they would die instantly as for the rest of us, well do you remember that episode of the Simpson?s when the nuclear (nukular) plant was about to blow up well we (US, UK, AU) would be in the yellow circle (slow and agonising death).

        • #3209417

          Not sure about the specifics

          by m_a_r_k ·

          In reply to Mark I’d hate to reign on your parade, but

          I don’t know about the accuracy of your statement on what 10 nukes or 20 nukes would do. In reality, it more than likely depends on the size of the bombs, where they are detonated, altitude of detonation, time span between detonations, etc. Not all nuclear weapons are designed to wipe out an entire city. There are some tactical nukes meant be used on the battlefied to kill an opposing force or to bury deep within the earth and destroy bunkers. Obviously, the fallout from these is meant to be naturally confined to a small area.

          I do agree that I’d rather be sitting on top of the bomb when it detonated rather being 20 miles from it.

        • #3231728

          Just a few facts on Nuclear (Nukular) weapons.

          by mjwx ·

          In reply to Not sure about the specifics

          The average range of for a lethal dose of radiation (gamma rays) created for a single Kiloton (Kt) is about 1.2 km outside of blast radius for a ground level detonation.

          In a ground level detonation radioactive particles fall fairly quickly to the earth limiting the range of fallout. At 200 metres you are subjected to various atmospheric phenomena such as wind currents which can carry radioactive particles a fair distance. When the radioactive particles reach the upper atmosphere (several KM’s) propelled there via the force of the nuclear explosion the currents reach world wide.

          Now for an individual nuke detonated under test conditions at a low level radioactive material does not travel far (risk is negligible) but when we are talking about a detonation at several hundred metres that range increases exponentially.

          Keep in mind this is based on just [b]one[/b] Kiloton. The bomb dropped on Hiroshima was 15 Kt’s and Nagasaki was 21 Kt’s. Modern nukes are measured in Megatons (Mt (1000 Kilotons)). The largest nuke detonated was 50 Mt’s in Siberia (I’ll let you guess who detonated it). The US is believed to possess a large number of 50 Mt or greater nuclear devices.

          This does not account for the fact that the materials used in modern nukes are at least twice as radioactive as those in the trinity/Japan bombs. One nuclear device detonated at a relatively low height would not create a large fallout zone but say a dozen nuclear explosions conducted under battle conditions (where speed, timing and height of detonation would vary) would result in widespread radiation poisoning. Air and water become flooded with radioactive particles for at least 1000 Km’s probably more.

          On a side note, something I found in my research, Pakistan has only been able to test a 9 Kt bomb. Less powerful than the US’s weakest detonation of 15 Kt’s (Hiroshima).

          Edit: Soviet forces were messing with my spelling, damn ruskies.

        • #3231692

          No rain on his parade…

          by x-marcap ·

          In reply to Mark I’d hate to reign on your parade, but

          Apparently you aren’t familiar with technology since the early 1960’s there are neutron bombs that will sterilize (kill all life) in an area and leave the buildings standing…

          There are Air Burst, EMP Pulse, and others.
          But just a minute. You are afraid of the Bomb. So the facts don’t matter! If a device is detonated high above ground there won’t be the downwind fallout. Trust me. Some very bright guys have tested this…

          I used to find that it was a nice cool place to take a nap between the bomb racks while on carrier duty. With the geigers nearby, I always felt safe… Nobody wanted to get too close to the big ones…

        • #3231668

          And…

          by ontheropes ·

          In reply to No rain on his parade…

        • #3231545

          Thank You!

          by x-marcap ·

          In reply to And…

          Fear of what you don’t understand is a large part of out porblems in this world. Microsft continues primarily because of that issue. Fear of the unknown…

        • #3212564

          An unexploded nuclear device is safe,

          by mjwx ·

          In reply to No rain on his parade…

          It is when they reach critical mass that they become dangerous. Unexploded nuclear ordinance is like with all the nonsense surrounding DU rounds, it would take a lot to cause permeant damage and the nuclear ordinance is shielded. All nuclear detonations produce fallout as any particles created in the explosion (mushroom cloud) are radioactive (look this one up if you don?t believe me) different bombs just produce different amounts of radioactive material.

          Standard nuclear and Neutron bombs (the ones that only kill life) produce an incredible amount of radioactive particles (radiation for the uninitiated). Because these particles are extremely light and small (on the nanometre scale and smaller) they are drawn up into the stratosphere (50 KM) where air currents will drag radioactive particles world wide. This is called “world wide fallout”.

          World wide fallout less effective than local fallout which has a limited range (as you discussed) so the amount of radioactive material needed to produce worldwide fallout is far greater. Remember at this point the only multi-Megaton (Mt) detonations have occurred at ground or sub-ground level, there have been no airburst detonations. It is estimated by radiological and atmospheric experts (a lot of very very smart people) that it would take between 10 and 20 multi-megaton airburst detonations (or equivalent neutron bomb detonations) to produce enough world wide fallout to render the world unliveable to humans.

          Also remember that there is already radiation (gamma rays) in the stratosphere caused by 1. Cosmic radiation 2. Previous airburst detonations but it is at a level too low to be any harm to almost anything. In fact it is so low it can not be detected by ordinary Geiger counters, this is called background radiation.

          Yes I do fear Nuclear detonations, but make no mistakes I have the facts. The more I learn about nuclear weapons the more I fear their detonation, I find it to be blatantly stupid not to fear them but it does not stop me learning. “Courage is fear holding on one minute longer” – John Wayne I think. I?ll be concerned when we stop fearing nuclear detonations.

          Also – EMP bombs need to be detonated in the upper atmosphere or higher. Space is best because then you don?t get fallout but there is a non-militarisation treaty preventing the deployment of space-based weaponry.

      • #3199550

        M_a_r_k

        by ontheropes ·

        In reply to Yet another simple solution

        I just thought I?d spend a few minutes looking up some things.

        [b]No[/b] personal attacks on anyone. I just found some statements here that interested me and I tried to verify them. This is one of the reasons I try to stay out of controversial discussions. They make me want to read too much stuff [b]and[/b] like virtually anything else I can find conflicting information so I?m forced to form my own conclusions.

        I also felt that dropping a BIG bomb on ?somebody? after 9/11 was a [b]good idea[/b]. I got over it, for a [b]lot[/b] of reasons.
        It?s seldom ever wrong to [b]feel[/b] a certain way. It?s how we (I) [b]act[/b] upon those feelings that get us (me) into trouble.

        ——–
        [b]Nuclear Winter
        Whatever you’re looking for you can get it on eBay.
        http://www.eBay.com[/b%5D

        ?In 1984 the WMO (World Meteorological Organization- my edit) commissioned G. S. Golitsyn and N. A. Phillips to review the state of the science. They found that studies generally assumed a scenario that half of the worlds nuclear weapons would be used, about 5-6,000 Mt, destroying approximately 1,000 cities, and creating large quantities of black carbonaceous smoke?

        Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_winter

        TTAPS Study

        ?Theory holding that the smoke and dust produced by a large nuclear war would result in a prolonged period of cold on the earth. The earliest version of the theory, which was put forward in the early 1980s in the so-called TTAPS report (named for last initials of its authors, Richard P. Turco, Owen B. Toon, Thomas P. Ackerman, James B. Pollack, and Carl Sagan), held that the ensuing low temperatures and prolonged periods of darkness would obliterate plant life and seriously threaten the existence of the human species.

        Later models, which took into account additional variables, confirmed the basic conclusions of the TTAPS report and suggested that the detonation of 100 megatons (the explosive power of 100 million tons of TNT) over 100 cities could produce temperature drops ranging from 5 to 15 degrees.?

        Me:[i]Finally! The solution to global warming! It?s a [b]joke, people)[/b][/i] 😐

        ?The U.S. and U.S.S.R. have conducted a total of 23 nuclear tests of at least 4 megatons each. The U.S. from 1952 to 1962 detonated 11 such devices above ground plus one underground in 1971. The total yield of these was 105 mt for an average of 9 mt each. The largest of these was a 15 mt test in 1954.

        In turn, the U.S.S.R. detonated 12 such multi-megaton devices above ground in 1961 and 1962, plus one underground in 1973. Their total yield was 200 mt, for an average of 15 mt each. The largest Soviet test was a 58 mt test in 1961. The total fission yield of all 22 above ground tests was about 124 mt (54 mt from U.S. tests and 70 mt from Soviet tests).?

        Ref: http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/nuclear/multimeg.html

        ———–

        Background radiation

        ?Sometimes included in background radiation are routine medical procedures like X-ray imaging; this is purposeful diagnostic exposure which dwarfs all other human-caused background radiation in the population of the industrialized world.?

        There is a lot more at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Background_radiation

        I have to have X-rays tomorrow. :_|
        —————

        Airbursts

        [b]From 1958 to 1962, the U.S. and U.S.S.R. conducted over a dozen nuclear tests in the Earth’s upper atmosphere or in space–the highest at an altitude of 480 km. The table below lists information on these tests.[/b] You can find the table at: http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/nuclear/hane.html

        ————–
        EMP

        [i]Also – EMP bombs need to be detonated in the upper atmosphere or higher. Space is best because then you don?t get fallout but there is a non-militarisation treaty preventing the deployment of space-based weaponry.[/i]

        [b]Several major factors control the effectiveness of an EMP weapon. These are:
        The height of the weapon when detonated.
        The yield of the weapon.
        The distance from the weapon when detonated.
        Geographical depth or intervening geographical features.

        Beyond a certain height a nuclear weapon will not produce any EMP, as the gamma rays will have had sufficient distance to disperse. In deep space or on worlds with no magnetic field (the Moon or Mars for example) there will be little or no EMP.[/b]

        Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_pulse

        —————
        Pakistan

        [b]India[/b]
        http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/nuclear/tests/OTH-ntests1.html
        ————
        ?Courage is fear holding on one minute longer.?
        George Patton
        1885-1945, American Militarist

        ————
        The [b]only[/b] conclusion that I care to print after [b]reading[/b] all of these pages and following other links on those pages is that in our current times [b]I[/b] think that wartime nuclear detonations aren?t a good thing. Were they ever? I?ve read arguments from both sides on that too.

        Shooting a hat off of somebody?s head 3 or 4 times could be a much better idea.

    • #3276678

      Absolutely!!

      by geekchic ·

      In reply to God, I love you Brits

      I thank everyone responsible for stopping this craziness and only hope that they did get everyone before they got away.

      Thank you all so much for the fine job that you did!

    • #3209645

      Well done JCK

      by oz_media ·

      In reply to God, I love you Brits

      While watching this morning’s new. Bush was seemingly taking credit by stating how the US police force is the world’s best (er, can you say Scotland Yard?). From three news reports I saw this morning, not a single one credited the British force with thwarting this issue, and each one implied it was due to Americas great security.

      later in teh day, Bush did pass his kudos to Tony Blair but ther ewas no mention of Pakistan’s astute work.

      Pakistani authorities alerted teh British forces ahead of time, the onset of this whole thwarting is 100% due to Pakistani officeals heads up.

      Pretty sad really.

      • #3209471

        Thanks

        by jck ·

        In reply to Well done JCK

        I was just relaying what I saw on BBC early in the morning here when I couldn’t sleep.

        Yeah, the Pakistani government deserves credit too.

        Bush tries to take credit for a lot of things to pump himself up, and tries to pass the buck where it’s detrimental.

        Gotta love politicians.

        Oh well…no matter. Where’s my Guinness!! 😀

        • #3209368

          Guinness

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Thanks

          Jump up and down, if nothing falls out, at least you know it’s not up your arse.

        • #3230366

          you’re absolutely right!

          by jck ·

          In reply to Guinness

          Now pull your head out yer arse…it’s not up there either 😉

        • #3230339

          Hey

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to you’re absolutely right!

          Just looking for a free Guinness that’s all. Found some corn up there though, maybe I’ll make some hooch.

        • #3230330

          cool man…

          by jck ·

          In reply to Hey

          I’ll eat some romaine and make you a fudge salad to boot! 😀

          BTW…I found Guinness in my fridge. Grab one at your leisure.

        • #3230327

          Fridge?

          by onbliss ·

          In reply to cool man…

          Not many, these days, use that word in USA 🙂

        • #3230321

          hmmm…

          by jck ·

          In reply to cool man…

          what do we Americans call them then?

          Ice box?
          refrigerator?
          cooler?
          oversized beer chiller?

          😀

          (BTW…you have to remember…I grew up in rural Oklahoma. So considering I’m not still in BFE like 85% of my classmates making crap money in backward, backwood America means I’ve done pretty good.)

        • #3230283

          Refrigerator

          by onbliss ·

          In reply to cool man…

          Among other things, I have heard refrigerator the most.

    • #3209644

      Pretty freaky

      by oz_media ·

      In reply to God, I love you Brits

      A family member JUST landed back from England yesterday. Phew!

    • #3209625

      What’s this? What’s worse?

      by oz_media ·

      In reply to God, I love you Brits

      “An American law enforcement official who was briefed on the investigation said it appeared the liquid to be used was a ?peroxide-based solution? to be detonated by an electronic device that was not specified, but could be anything from a disposable camera to a portable digital music player.

      The official spoke on condition of anonymity because British authorities had asked that no information be released.”

      While thanking Britain for thwarting this horrendous crime upon humanity, some Americans deem it fit to ignore British Security requests. We all know what would happen if the tables were turned on that one. 330 million Americans would buy Fish and Chips or Toad in the Hole and throw it away.

      An American law enforcement officer was breifed in secrecy. He was then told not to share the information with others. He then went to NBC news, blabbed about what he knew and requested his name was not posted because he was told not to say anything?

      So what’s worse here,

      1) The guy that is a law enforcement officer that leaks information that jeopardizes the safety of the free world. Lynch him, deport him or kill the damn yankee.

      2)The fact that NBC actually KEPT his comments anonymous. Is that not aiding and abetting a criminal?

      3) The fact that NBC not only ignored the fact that he should have been reported to authorities but also decided to PRINT the story ?

      Who are these morons and why do they breath air on our planet??

      The more I read about the mindless idiots in America, the more I am completely dumfounded that they obtained ‘super power’ status. It seems most would have issues opening a bag of chips by themselves. I have yet to see a more clueless and purely ignorant nation.

      I suppose I will now take a barrage of insults from Americans who feel the need to defend the idiot, just because he’s American.

      • #3209618

        Not this one

        by tig2 ·

        In reply to What’s this? What’s worse?

        You are absolutely right. The idiot should have kept his mouth shut and NBC should have considered that they shouldn’t air the story.

        I think sometimes that we should seriously re-think the whole “feedom of the press” thing as it pertains to National Security. Oh wait, we did that once. The press b!tched loudly and everyone talked about how horribly unconstitutional it was. That was during Gulf One when we at least had Schwartzkopf on the firing line… and he really didn’t care that the press was unhappy.

        “Loose lips sink ships”. Of course, we have forgotten all that…

        There’s a name for what that “official” did. Treason.

        • #3209614

          THANK YOU!!

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Not this one

          I knew someone would see the error in his ways. History here has taught me that no matter what the issue, America is right, regardles sof how wrong it.or an individual may be.

          I am elated to see I have been proven wrong and I accept your correction.

          P.S. I am sorry for being so rude about Americans in this case. I read the comments about a half dozen times just to see that I wasn’t misunderstanding it, I was horrified to see I wasn’t wrong and posted quite a flame. I fully agree that one bad apple ruins the cider, and in this case I apologize if I did offend anyone.

        • #3209597

          You are correct in your

          by old guy ·

          In reply to THANK YOU!!

          assessment of that idiot. And, I appreciate your P.S in this post. However, to start popping off about “the mindless idiots in America” and that you “have yet to see a more clueless and purely ignorant nation” would be the same as me saying all Canadians are stupid. That is the furtherest from the truth and so is your observation and generalization of Americans. If it were possible to test this I would be sure that Canada, America, the UK, and Australia have the same number or morons in percentages. And, that percentage would be small compared to the average citizen of each country. Unfortunately, those are the ones the world hears about.

          I think that most of us here in TR land probably feels very similar about idiots no matter whose they are. You come in with guns blazing attacking “the Americans” and, yes, it will piss us off. I would expect the same reaction from you and Jaqui if I came in spouting off that kind of stuff about “all Canadians”. Most of us here agree with you on these kind of idiots but you don’t need to try to put us all in the same breath. Try being a little more specific and a whole lot less generalizing–it goes much further.

          Note: No, this is not to just get you riled up. I don’t play that game. I just don’t like for folks to come in here bad-mouthing everyone in any country. I don’t play that game either.

        • #3209590

          Absolutely correct OG,

          by mjwx ·

          In reply to You are correct in your

          AU UK CA and US have similar percentages of Idiots, It just sounds like the American Idiots are louder (but wait until an Aussie idiot gets a few beers into him).

        • #3209564

          Time to export

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Absolutely correct OG,

          as we hit our quota of idiots…..

        • #3209538

          Weve had to outsource

          by mjwx ·

          In reply to Time to export

          Seem’s theres not enought idiots in AU. 🙂

        • #3209472

          MJ, we have

          by old guy ·

          In reply to Time to export

          an Aussie working here and he has kind of told me the general feelings toward New Zealand. Do ya think we could export some of our idiots to them? :^0

        • #3209458

          Amen

          by jck ·

          In reply to Time to export

          I say we start in the north and move idiots into Canada since they are so clued and non-ignorant…

          What you think, jd? 😀

          (P.S.- I’m already trying to get relocated out of country, so you don’t have to worry about me 😉 )

        • #3230353

          well, that is ONE down….. :p

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Time to export

          I think exporting to Canada is a wonderful idea! We can round up all of the democrats, as their politics are more in line with Candians than with Americans anyways! :p

          Of course, because many are so vial and hateful, I don’t see the canuks putting up with them for long. B-)

        • #3230337

          You know..

          by maecuff ·

          In reply to Time to export

          My family, some of my employees..many of friends.. all democrats. Oh..and me. And we are neither vile nor hateful..

          Think about it, JD. People just generally suck, Republicans, Democrats, black, white, poor, rich, male, female..doesn’t matter. As a whole, too many people just plain old suck.

        • #3230335

          I really don’t mind…I count myself lucky…

          by jck ·

          In reply to Time to export

          …that I have a skill that can get me where I want to go. Not all Americans have that option.

          As I said somewhere else, I’m looking to go to one of Canada’s provinces possibly if I can’t get employed in Ireland or the UK. I have to get away from the close-mindedness that seems to be running rough-shot in this country. It’s truly about 3 steps from being Taliban-ish… unfortunately.

          Comically, it reminds me so much of Monty Python…but in a more realistic aspect. I can picture it now…
          *************
          [i](picture David Letterman is talking to Paul Shaffer in an office)[/i]

          [b]David Letterman:[/b]I don’t know – Mr Moonvees just told me to come in here and say that there was trouble at the studio, that’s all – I didn’t expect a kind of Republican Inquisition.

          [picture Bush, Cheney and FCC Chair Kevin J. Martin entering in a cardinal’s robes]

          [b]Bush:[/b]NOBODY expects the Republican Inquisition!
          Our chief weapon is surprise…surprise and fear…fear and surprise….
          Our two weapons are fear and surprise… and ruthless efficiency….
          Our three weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency…
          and an almost fanatical devotion to money….
          Our four… no…
          Amongst our weapons… Amongst our weaponry…
          are such elements as fear, surprise…
          I’ll come in again when I can remember that many words…dagnabit

          [leaves room; Letterman and Shaffer look confused…]

          [b]David Letterman:[/b]I didn’t expect a kind of Republican Inquisition.

          [Bush trio bursts clumsily through the door again]

          [b]Bush:[/b]NOBODY expects the Republican Inquisition!
          Amongst our weaponry are such diverse elements as: fear, surprise, ruthless efficiency, an almost fanatical devotion to the money, and nice red pickup trucks- Oh damn!
          [Bush to Cheney]
          I can’t say it – you’ll have to say it.
          [b]Cheney:[/b] Like hell…
          [Cheney leaves room.]

          Hahaha…fits right in… 😉

        • #3230331

          Sure

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Time to export

          If only MORE people sucked a guys life would be more pleasant, instead of the nudging and outright begging needed for many of todays women.

        • #3231155

          Oz,

          by noyoki ·

          In reply to Time to export

          You really can’t say [b]ANYthing[/b] decent about [b]ANYone[/b], can you?

          (Yourself aside I assume… Though I generally avoid your threads, so perhaps I have been proven wrong elsewhere? Hey, your freedom of speech, my freedom to ignore it.)

        • #3231110

          Re: Oz…

          by noyoki ·

          In reply to Time to export

          I stand corrected. For the first time (ever I think), I do agree (for the most part) with you in your post here: http://tinyurl.com/no2qo.

          The problem that I seem to keep seeing in your posts, is that not everyone agrees with Bush, and you seem to keep assuming that it’s true. Lord knows *I* didn’t vote for him last time, and I’ll be damned before I vote for him this time around! Other than that and writing little letters to the gov’t, my hands are tied. Even if I moved out of the country in protest, who would have me? If I went to Canada, would I be welcomed? Doubtful. And what good would it do anyway?

          I have no problems saying the press are idiots, (I don’t read The Post nor watch Fox as they are the biggest offenders, IMO) Bush is a moron, and there are countries and people that are p!ssed at the US (and rightly so). I hope that the next president is less an idiot, and starts to at least TRY to make amends.

          But, I *do* have a problem with having words, thoughts, and / or rhetoric tossed into my mouth that are contrary to my own beliefs, (IE: “All Americans think x, y, and z”), when I most certainly don’t, and there are many more people besides me that feel the same! We aren’t (many of us) riled up because we’re defending the reporters or Bush or even the US’s actions, we’re riled because people keep saying “All Americans support the war/Bush/etc”.

          I can empathize with when the people around you condemn a certain nationality – where I grew up, I was told by my family: black people are in gangs doing drugs or will beat their wives and mexicans will rape you because you’re a little white girl. But that doesn’t mean that *I* have to think like them. (I’ve friends from both races that are contrary to the stereotype, and no, I didn’t grow up in a bad area.)

          In all, apologies – I just wish to see more posts that are objective like the one mentioned above, rather than just name-calling. If you want to rant about Bush, go right ahead! I’m with you on that one! If you want to rant about the press, by all means!

          But please don’t assume we all fit nicely into the pre-made mold as well….

          Oh, and way to blame it on the women on the last post, however. (http://tinyurl.com/sxwzl)

        • #3202151

          POSTS

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Time to export

          Blame it on the women? Who else woul dI blame it on, the men?

          As for blaming Americans, this forum is generally populated with niothing but right wing zealots. bush has done no wrong, Canada is a pussy, France deserves to be nuked etc. there are more here than you can possibly imagine. They have a knack of disappearing when a thread leans left, once peopl ein America start agreeing with people outside America, they hush up. WHile they have their little gang on board, they will discount and name call anything left or even slight center leaning as complete BS. You should see the crap they sling around, remember I’ve been at this for years now, long before Iraq began.

          I have noticed more and more centered posts lately, are people coming around? Is teh numbness going away? Are the Right wingers hushed by the reality that reared it’s ugly head? I don’t know really, but just last week it was all right wing flames all again.

          TR has so many vocal right wingers it is natural to be defensive when posting your comments that you know will be targeted as BS becaus ethey are nto happy, American thoughts and definitely not what the press has reported, or the White House (they couldnt POSSIBLY lie!).

          So I reneg any truly offensive generalizations I have thrown out at you, but those who are targeted know who they are, even if they sit in the corner and giggle quietly to themselves.

          Enjoy your evening,
          OM

        • #3199431

          Re: POSTS

          by noyoki ·

          In reply to Time to export

          > Blame it on the women? Who else woul dI blame it on, the men?

          Well, considering there are no women in absolute (or at least president-type) power, in the US or anywhere else, I’d say so.

        • #3199273

          okay

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Time to export

          So you completely missed that part of the post or the humour intended. Fair enough,

        • #3209460

          here…I’ll remedy this

          by jck ·

          In reply to You are correct in your

          the most ignorant country in the world:

          Niger

          (Based on a 4 year study determining the percentage of people who are literate.)

          Am I pissed off about his comments? Nah…makes me laugh. With all the intelligent people Oz actually gets to communicate with here that are American, his push of a daft generalisation like that just means he’s showing his arse for no good reason or that he is doing exactly what Max said…trying to ruffle feathers.

          Besides, I’m not like a lot of Americans. I believe in the freedom of speech, so long as it does not infringe the rights of any other individual, break the law, or purposefully put into motion the afore-mentioned pair.

          Remember…it’s your right, as an American, to show your arse…why deny a British-ex-pat Canadian resident his right to do so too?

          We want to spread democracy and freedom around the globe…just listen to Bush and he’ll tell you all about it 😀

          (sarcastic post over…QED)

        • #3209565

          So why is it all right

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Not this one

          when the NY times does it with national secrets?

        • #3209483

          It isn’t alright

          by tig2 ·

          In reply to So why is it all right

          It is never alright.

          The fact that we have continually turned a blind eye to the press reporting sensitive/classified information doesn’t make it acceptable. It simply means that the press has way too much power.

          Should the press challenge closely held beliefs and present truth? In my opinion, they should… within some limits. The limits governing what the press may and may not report have been around for a long time. We don’t bother to adhere to them. The net result is that if I want classified information I have to go no further than my local rag to get it. Or turn on CNN. I’m sorry- there are things that the public does NOT have a right to know.

          The fact that the NY Times does it too doesn’t make it less reprehensible. In some ways, it is MORE reprehensible- no one is willing to take a stand on the issue and the “public” insists that they have a right.

          After 10 years closely associated with the Military, I got very aware of “loose” discussion. Does no one consider that the information that they can’t wait to know could endanger American lives? While you’re wrapping fish with yesterday’s news, someone out there is using it to harm others. Or could be.

          Oz is right on this one. I appreciated that he came back and toned back his initial post. I did, however, understand his sense of outrage.

        • #3209470

          Oh, please! Oz’s sense of outrage?

          by maxwell edison ·

          In reply to It isn’t alright

          The only sense Oz posts around here is nonsense.

        • #3209366

          How about a thought instead?

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Oh, please! Oz’s sense of outrage?

          All you do is post your clueless observations of others. How about some logic or comon sense for once? If your gonna post, at least post something, mindless flames are for ‘flamers’.

          If ou have something to say, then say it, if you don’t then SFTU, it’s pretty straight forward really.

        • #3230356

          more rage than outrage

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Oh, please! Oz’s sense of outrage?

          .

        • #3230352

          if you guys could wait…

          by jck ·

          In reply to more rage than outrage

          I’m gonna go pop some popcorn and get my robe and slippers on and kick back in the easy chair…

          I wanna watch this… 😀

        • #3230314

          Max’s practice

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Oh, please! Oz’s sense of outrage?

          Step 1)Read part one someone’s comments,
          Step 2)forget the rest of the thread
          Step 3)post personal flames without substance just to pretend you are clever

          Unfortunately, if you had actually had the sense to read on, you woul dalso see that I renegged those comments and apologized if I had offended anyone. I was quite pissed off and couldn’t believe that a bunch of so called politically aware people had overlooked the issue. You jump all over this stuff when it’s someone else, but in America it must be fine…your reasoning, because you feel others would do it.

          Well done Max, brilliant deduction, when’s your 3rd Birthday?

          Like I said, one bad apple spoils the cider, in this case a loud once, your ignorant replies are enough to make anyone think all Americans are dumb as a bag of rusted hammers, even Americans.

          Good thing you hold a very isolated opinion most of the time, if everyone had your mentality Bush would never be allowed to stop placing you in harms way.

        • #3209493

          You’re wrong on two counts

          by maxwell edison ·

          In reply to Not this one

          First of all, Oz is a person who simply cannot be taken seriously. He’s just throwing some flame bait out to see who nibbles.

          Secondly, whenever a press report mentions an “unnamed source” or “anonymous source”, it’s a poor reflection on the press, not necessarily “the source”, something I’ve been saying for years (regardless of the issue and/or story).

          Do a Web search for “unnamed source” or “anonymous source”, and you’ll get millions of hits on stories written by any number of press nationalities using any number of “source” nationalities. (How many British “unnamed sources” have been used, for example, in the BBC to compromise British or American security? Remember the uranium stories? ) Moreover, one of Oz’s “anonymous sources” would be a hero for divulging sensitive information if it advanced his own agenda, yet another is a goat if it advances the same agenda. And what’s Oz’s agenda, you ask? Well, if you don’t know by now, you’ll eventually figure it out.

          All “unnamed sources” or “anonymous sources” should be treated equally. And like I said, it’s yet another example of the dismal reporting we are seeing more and more of — especially from the likes of the New York Times, the Washington Post, AP, or the BBC. Whenever you see an “unnamed source” or “anonymous source” used as the basis for a claim or a news story, the red flag of skepticism should pop up because there’s a hidden agenda in there someplace, by someone.

          From the same stories:

          “American investigators praised Britain for preventing a catastrophe. ‘If this plot had actually occurred, the world would have stood still,’ Mark Mershon, assistant director of the FBI, told the AP in New York.” (Gee, not an “unnamed source”!)

          By the way, the “unnamed sources” used in the recent news stories originating in the New York Times, et al, about the wiretappings, call monitoring, phone number mining, bank record monitoring, etc., that was seen as compromising national security to me (and others) was seen as a revelation praised by others (like Oz) who used it to blast the American Administration. Why weren’t those “sources” criticized? And consider this, it was actually those types of measures that helped the authorities (both British and American) hone-in on these potential threats.

          Another hint: Never take what Oz says as gospel, especially when it relates to what he claims someone else said. Just read the news stories, in their entirety, for yourself; or better yet, read the actual words spoken by the person on whom the story was written. For example, instead of taking Oz at his word when he repeats what President Bush might have said, just read the president’s comments for yourself. They’re easy to find, and you’ll be amazed that you’re reading something entirely different.

          All in all, it’s best to just not take the bait — especially, considering “the source”.

        • #3209354

          Thank you for your educational bullspit.

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to You’re wrong on two counts

          You are so eloquent and educated, for a child. Now as far as bait, if you feel ou are being preyed upon, you can cower in your closet until tye meanies are all gone.

          You dont have to insult other people’s intelligence by explaining your most absurd deductions to them. Your tone is that people are too stupid to make up their own minds. People here are completely capable of conducting a reasonable discussion with me, even if you can’t seem to achieve it yourself.

          As for the source don’t be so friggin dumb, even though most of us are used to it. This is nothign even remotely close to the example you cited and secondly whatever gave you the idea I would support someone offering intelligence he was told NOT to offer? The only times I have cited such soures are when people have LEFT theior positions and are excercising the right to free speech by showing their disdain or uncovering untruths about the US government. These people are not recently breifed with intelligence and are now breaching that trust. I have cited OLD issues, such as when Bush’s speech writers are prompted to not mention some issues and only focus on others, or simply lie about what they know. Obviously coming ou twell after the fact. Next time try and think befroe you spew your constant lies, yes lies, no truth at all.

          A hint for all those you are trying to lie to, Maxwell has an uncanny way of posting supportive links to hist posts that have no credibility at all. IF Max ever posts a link to support his comments, which are generally just simnple, single minded opinion, check the sources. Republican nutbags, left wing zealots, old stories since proven incorrect etc.

          Fun yet Max?

          the guy in question had recent VERY sensitive information, the suspects are not all captured and the investigations continue, for him to spew that infpormation to the press and then for the press to print it, fully understanding the seriousness of the information, is truly a breach of national and international security.

          For others here, Max sees everything I say as bait. In this case, he wanted to be baited so bad he took it without it being there. Know I know I originally said how Americans would flock to support this idiot, [i]”I suppose I will now take a barrage of insults from Americans who feel the need to defend the idiot, just because he’s American”[/i] Well I should have said Right Wing nutbags who feel America never has and never could be wrong, who support the US government and Bush blindly and without hesitation or question. Those people are conveniently represented here by our right wing nutbag zealot, Maxwell Edison.

          Nice demonstration from you there Max, way to stand up and be counted. ONE!!!! hahahahahaha!!! ONE right wing American nutbag, ha ha ha!!!! ]:)

        • #3230267

          But Oz!

          by x-marcap ·

          In reply to Thank you for your educational bullspit.

          You are full of yourself as usual.

          Max in this case is pretty dead on, unless you believe the sewage you are initially posting. I read you to understand what a retarded lefty would actually believe. You seem to forget an old saw. Let sleeping Dawgs Lie (Where is DAWG anyway) He needs to take a bite out of your …Ah… self…ego.

          Anyway rather than disect you as Max has so many times, I merely want to let you understand that I hold you in the mildest form of contempt.

          You aren’t intellectually up to a response of the same level. So I guess I’ll just do what your lovers have done, Point and laugh…

        • #3230257

          When are you going to start beign as clever as you claim?

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to But Oz!

          Your shots are anything but witty or clever, just school yard BS.

          As you CLAIM my original post is BS, it was plastered all over the US news. Everybody elase here has read it, except you and Max who obviously know better and completely disregard what you don’t want to believe.

          YOu are in essence TRYING to say that it wasn’t a US source that leaked sensitive information to a major news outlet? Give our head a good shake you need help. Nobody can take you seriously when you attempt to discredit international news that is the same all over the world, you can’t be serious.

          as fo rthe American idiots who woul ddefend such a person, that is also true as you have demonstrated yourself. At some point in teh distant future you will have a realization, I just hope you are clued in enough to realize it and realize just hwo absurd your llegation are, abotu as f***ed up as your buddy Maxwell’s opinions are. In this thread your veiws are the minority. Half of your American counterparts here agree the guy was WAY out of line and should be tried for treason, including many of your left wing supporters who can at least see reality.

          What a retarded lefty woul dbelieve? That in itself just shows how simple minded your type is, well at least you’re not alone, there’s always Max (and probably a few cordfed, backawrds, redkneck Marine buddies who also believe America won all the wars and saved the world from peril) to keep you warm.

          Here’s one for you, you guys all said that Afgabistan was a done deal and that Iraq was an important target and that Saddam was a threat to the USA. MEanwhile your lefty enemies have been sayign that ALQaeda is nto defeated, Bin Laden’s ork will be done by someone else and that AlQaeda is bigger and stringer than ever before, growing in over 66 countries INCLUDING THE USA.

          But Noooooo, not the right wing, Saddam was the threat. So what was going on in England eh whole time? Saddams plotting against you? Iraq’s Attack? No matter how many times your government leads you astray and then is proven to be completely wrong, you still think it is correct while the rest are wrong, even when PROVEN otherwise.

          get a life, and then try buying a cheap brain it’s got to beat what you have now.

          point and laugh all you like, just remember to look in the mirror once in a while and wipe the egg and crow feathers off your face.

      • #3209609

        No negatives from me either OZ

        by ontheropes ·

        In reply to What’s this? What’s worse?

        I think the Brit’s did an excellent job.

        Although I’m uncertain of the details, if it is as you say it is, then the law enforcement officer must be found and dealt with according to the [b]full[/b] extent of the law.

        Our media? I’m not even going to get started on that one.

        edit: That’s almost a double-negative in the title but I’m just going to leave it. I’m sure you know what I meant.

        ?A senior U.S. congressional source said it is believed the plotters were to carry a “British version of Gatorade” onto the planes and then mix it with a gel-like substance.?

        http://tinyurl.com/lx8as & http://tinyurl.com/hnokf & http://tinyurl.com/fd52x & http://tinyurl.com/ht759

      • #3209589

        Stunning Stupidity

        by techexec2 ·

        In reply to What’s this? What’s worse?

        “…An American law enforcement official who was briefed on the investigation said it appeared the liquid to be used was a ?peroxide-based solution? to be detonated by an electronic device that was not specified, but could be anything from a disposable camera to a portable digital music player.

        The official spoke on condition of anonymity because British authorities had asked that no information be released…”

        Not all Americans defend such stunning and embarassing stupidity, Oz. On behalf of all my fellow Americans, and on condition of anonymity, “I’m sorry”. 🙂

        edited for clarity (smiley)

        • #3209586

          I’ll let you puzzle over this message

          by ontheropes ·

          In reply to Stunning Stupidity

          I’m not going to do what I feel like doing. I won’t say I haven’t thought about it but I’m just not going to do it.

          I’m going to do it… As a free American citizen I am no more responsible for what some idiot law enforcement official did than I am for what some idiots post at TR.

          There. I did it.

        • #3209515

          I’ll assume you didn’t get the joke

          by techexec2 ·

          In reply to I’ll let you puzzle over this message

          Lighten up, friend.

          My post was only half serious. The other half was a joke. I’ve added a smiley for you and anyone else who might also miss it.

          The AP report was exactly as quoted in my post (and Oz). Assuming its true, it’s pretty stunningly stupid.

          As for Oz, I did not blast him for blasting all Americans. He was begging for it and I chose not to comply.

          It is more than obvious that his blasting all Americans is absurd and does more to discredit him than to make any point about Americans and America. People who want to be taken seriously don’t make statements like he did.

          My reply was part serious, part humorous, and part sarcastic. And, you apparently missed the point. Now who’s the idiot? 🙂 <--HUMOR INDICATOR Chill out. We're all proud to be American and salute the same flag. And, when there's a SNAFU, we don't hesitate to say so.

        • #3209509

          Did I

          by ontheropes ·

          In reply to I’ll assume you didn’t get the joke

          call you an idiot? Are you calling me an idiot? Do I think Oz is an idiot?

          Questions, questions, questions.

          The below is for your further enlightenment as posted in my edited response to Oz.

          ?A senior U.S. congressional source said it is believed the plotters were to carry a “British version of Gatorade” onto the planes and then mix it with a gel-like substance.?

          http://tinyurl.com/lx8as & http://tinyurl.com/hnokf & http://tinyurl.com/fd52x & http://tinyurl.com/ht759

          Chill out. We’re not all proud of all Americans or America and not every American thinks that continuous America bashing is a joke. If you choose to believe you’re a funny man because you put a smile on your face now, go right ahead.

        • #3209457

          Very cute

          by techexec2 ·

          In reply to Did I

          I tried to be friendly with you. But, you would much prefer to be antagonistic. I don’t know why. I don’t care why. You want to be Mr. Serious. Fine. Let’s be serious.

          Apparently, your point is that this is too serious for there to be any room for some light-hearted posting on this website. And, you think it is your job to set people straight. Fine. Point taken. This is damn serious. You’re right about that much. I would have respected you if you just said that, two posts back. It’s not your place to set people straight, pompous man.

          If you choose to believe you are clever and accomplishing something by being sarcastic, insulting, condescending, disrespectful, and pompous, go right ahead.

          Go take your silly word games somewhere else. The only joke here is you.

        • #3209444

          Flame off

          by tig2 ·

          In reply to Very cute

          I didn’t catch your humour first time out either. You chose to escalate.

          The antagonism can end now. There are really more important things you can do with your time.

        • #3209431

          What are you trying to say?

          by ontheropes ·

          In reply to Very cute

          “It’s not your place to set people straight, pompous man.”

          It must be yours then?

          “The only joke here is you.” I disagree.

          How will I ever survive without having someone as sarcastic, insulting, condescending, disrespectful, and pompous as you for a “friend”?

          We have so much in common.

        • #3209416

          TT: Reply to you

          by techexec2 ·

          In reply to Very cute

          It’s very nice of you to be a peacemaker. Really. But, it’s not necessary. I’ve already said all I am going to say to this person. I’ve already made my point.

          A “flame war” is stupid. For whatever reason, this person chose to start “something” with me. I don’t know what or why and it certainly does not matter. This time, on this day, I chose to push back. It’s not something I usually do. I know that responding to people who come at you like that is a waste of time.

          Thanks…

        • #3209394

          Now c’mon Tigger. Really…

          by ontheropes ·

          In reply to Very cute

          I’m sure I was the only one that didn’t catch the humour in it. :0

          You can see how badly I treated Oz originally.

          I tried and failed to believe his carefully crafted “apology” that was posted after I’d posted.

          I think that people who are truly sorry for doing something won’t ever do it again without making qualifying statements such as, “in this case”.

          I should’ve just let Old Guy handle it. He did a fine job. I didn’t.

          As far as TechExec2 and Oz both are concerned…
          I don’t really give a rip what they think.

        • #3209388

          You know, NeverBusted

          by tig2 ·

          In reply to Very cute

          You actually made me go back and re-read the original post. I am so used to Oz being over the top that I find I edit him as I read.

          Finally the lightbulb of Great Understanding goes off over my head.

          Sheesh. Talk about convenient “hearing”.

          I didn’t catch the apology until after I had posted. And to be honest, didn’t think much of it. When I read globalised statements, I disregard them. I just assume that I am not one of those being globalised. I’m special, dontchaknow? 🙂

          I do get irritated with the failure to draw a line for the press between what we need to know and what they seem to need to print. That 10 years with the Military made that personal.

          Oh well.

          I’m getting worried about you, NeverBusted. I’ve read a couple of posts from you today that haven’t been edited. What’s wrong? You ALWAYS edit. Even if you don’t have to.

          Should I email you some coffee? (_)D 🙂

          Edited because I felt like it…

        • #3230266

          Never Busted, You are coolness personified.

          by x-marcap ·

          In reply to Did I

          Oz is aspiring to become an idiot, but only if he can pass a few more classes.

        • #3230256

          I’m here you know

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Never Busted, You are coolness personified.

          You can always br a man and speak directly to me instead of trying the third party crap that sore loser try when they are wrong.

        • #3230206

          There’s hope for Oz though. He keeps coming back.

          by ontheropes ·

          In reply to Never Busted, You are coolness personified.

          I actually have been able to have a fairly civil comment or two with him a few times. I hope I’m not going to have to show the links to prove it though.

          I believe I’ve noticed where surfing habits seem to vary widely among TR members. I may have a dozen different discussions tabbed for reading at once while some people concentrate on one thing and miss the bigger picture, in my opinion. I try to read everything my contacts post. It’s tough to keep up.

          I have the luxury of time right now. For most of my Contacts I have read as much of their discussion back history as I could find. Maybe it’s stoopid but I feel as if I know them, as much as it is possible to know someone from just reading.

          The biggest exception on back history is Hal. Who can keep up with everything he does? Max is another one very hard to keep up with, though that has tapered off lately. I also used to keep tabs on Oz. Maybe I will again. Maybe not.

          It’s the TR [b]community[/b] after all, not just [b]my[/b] backyard.

          I may have read, with or without comment, everything you’ve ever posted here. I believe that I know when you’re joking and when you’re serious.

          Your comment to me in your title here has, strangely enough, humbled me and I don’t care who knows it.

          It is very much appreciated.

        • #3230139

          Addendum regarding coolness

          by ontheropes ·

          In reply to Never Busted, You are coolness personified.

          I hope you never have to try and prove it to anyone.

        • #3209350

          Keep reading then

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to I’ll assume you didn’t get the joke

          I actually renegged my shot at Americans and apologized if I had offended anyone. You just have to read on.

        • #3230360

          Errors and Corrections

          by techexec2 ·

          In reply to Keep reading then

          Obviously, I agree that we have an “American idiot of the day” (the anonymous leaker and the media) and I don’t agree that all of us Americans are bad guys. It’s good to hear you didn’t really mean it. There are plenty of good smart people in America, and Canada too.

          Looks like you and I are lumped together in the “dog house” by NeverBusted. What the h*ll is up with THAT guy? He was deliberately antagonistic and I haven’t a clue what the h*ll set him off. Not getting my attempt at humor does not explain how he reacted.
          http://techrepublic.com.com/5208-6230-0.html?forumID=8&threadID=199288&messageID=2076789

          Anyway, we’ve got a lot to be happy and thankful for with what the Brits did.

        • #3230338

          Dude

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Errors and Corrections

          As for what other people think or say; who really cares? I sure as hell don’t.

          Hey if someone can’t comprehend something the way it was intended, and even after further description they STILL don’t get it. Let them enjoy their own miserably confused existence by themselves. I went through that with a few guys here, they still get some completely confused impression of everything you say because they create a voice that matches your words and then get the wrong impression due to misunderstanding your implied tone. Their ignorance, not yours.

          Have a cool weekend! OM.

        • #3230315

          Oz: Thanks

          by techexec2 ·

          In reply to Errors and Corrections

        • #3209352

          So clever…not

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to I’ll let you puzzle over this message

          I fthis guy had simply posted his comments on TR it wouldn’t be so bad. Instead he offered classified information to a national news source, yet you see some relationship between the two?

        • #3230265

          That is usually reserved for liberal Democratic Senators,

          by x-marcap ·

          In reply to So clever…not

          Like Rockefeller, and Chris Dodd, etc. Connecticut Dems have seen fit to try to vote out the only Democrat I’d have voted for President out of the group of clowns now prominent, Joe Lieberman.

          Why isn’t Dodd’s JD hearing going to happen before the election? I always thought the JD would investigate and decide to indict or not to indict. Why does Dodd and Rockefeller get to have hearings, not just indictments you or I would get?

        • #3230252

          Who cares

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to That is usually reserved for liberal Democratic Senators,

          I’m didn’t vote democrat or liberal or conservative or republican. I am not bound to stand by my vote yteh way you are, this way I get to weigh information from all sides an dig for truth amongst all the BS.

        • #3277225

          We have to live with a bum for 6 years in the Senate.

          by x-marcap ·

          In reply to That is usually reserved for liberal Democratic Senators,

          Every two years we have the chance to throw out a Congressman who isn’t doing the job.

      • #3209577

        Oz – Rude and Crass as usual

        by maxwell edison ·

        In reply to What’s this? What’s worse?

        .

        • #3209551

          Max- Going way off topic here-Musical Trivia

          by ontheropes ·

          In reply to Oz – Rude and Crass as usual

          Did you know that Crass released their third album, “Penis Envy” in 1981?

          Edited to add the link http://tinyurl.com/ec66t because some people have a little thing for it.

        • #3209478

          I guess we know what portion

          by x-marcap ·

          In reply to Max- Going way off topic here-Musical Trivia

          of his anatomy (the one he thinks with) is totally inadequate for the job at hand. :0 (or maybe only for the job at hand 😉 !

        • #3209455

          What are you saying and how does this relate to music trivia?

          by ontheropes ·

          In reply to I guess we know what portion

          Oh…
          I see.
          You thought that I meant that Oz…

          If great care isn’t taken the entire portion of this discussion could just slip out of hand and go off in just a matter of a few seconds.

        • #3209443

          You mean….

          by jellimonsta ·

          In reply to What are you saying and how does this relate to music trivia?

          If GG was to catch hold of this?? :p

        • #3209433

          oh, Jelli ,nibble>

          by gadgetgirl ·

          In reply to You mean….

          did you have to go and post that just as I was practicing on my banana..

          erm…

          I mean, eating my banana?

          ]:)

          GG

        • #3209418

          GG

          by jellimonsta ·

          In reply to You mean….

          I even left the DE in my post for you too. 🙂

          Did you catch hold of it?!?! ]:)

        • #3209411

          [i] that’s what caused the problem…..[/i]

          by gadgetgirl ·

          In reply to You mean….

          I caught the DE –

          and giggled –

          ergo the “mess” with the half practiced on, erm, I mean half eaten banana!!!

          ]:)

          GG

        • #3209400

          Sorry, GG….

          by jellimonsta ·

          In reply to You mean….

          I hope you didn’t have too much of it in your mouth at the time!! ]:)

        • #3209386

          well

          by gadgetgirl ·

          In reply to You mean….

          .
          .
          .
          .
          .
          .
          .
          .
          .
          [i] it was only half way in…….[/i]

          ]:)

          GG

        • #3209441

          I do believe that it already has

          by tig2 ·

          In reply to What are you saying and how does this relate to music trivia?

          I’m going back to the other thread to hide!

          One week from today I should be in sight of the first cheering station…

        • #3230274

          Hey Oz

          by x-marcap ·

          In reply to I guess we know what portion

          Is your favorite song “Hand Jive”?

        • #3230272

          Heh he

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Hey Oz

          Your cool aren’t you?! At least you think you are.

          If you have a point, speak your mind for a change instead of being a pussy and offering your attempts at cutsie little comments. How is that even a remotely relevant comment? What are you 22, 23? Still living in moms basement with big white eyes from not seeing daylight for 22 years, get a life.
          Your comments are not worth the spittle on your lips while you spew them. If you had something relevant, even halfay intelligent to say, you’d be a voice like all others here. As you have chosen to come off like the dozens of snot nosed little worthless pukes who hang around here looking for some form of conversation outside of the gamers forum, your comments only stand to make yourself look as stupid as you really are.

          If you want credibility, earn it, you certainly won’t get there by offering grade school slags that aren’t even slighlty witty in the least. What a child; if you ARE an adult, go back to school in a country where you will actually get an education.

          Whats next? Bum,bum,pooh,pooh comments?

          Lastly, learn how to post in proper sequence.

          If you are posting to me, post below one of my comments and at least try to address the comment itself, you are looking as stupid as Max does.

        • #3230262

          Oz! You Southern end of a Northern bound horse.

          by x-marcap ·

          In reply to Heh he


          I am still the same Marine who thinks you are a left wing nutless, snide…

          You an I are at the opposite Poles of the subject. You assume that Americans condone the leaking of sensitive information. Most of us believe that he should be charged and tried.

          Most Americans aren’t willing to fight the fight, but that’s why the Marines and Army are there. We willingly do the dirty job that has to be done. You want all soldiers out of combat? well so do I. Get the Hezbos, N.Koreans, Iranians, Soviets, Extremists to disarm and I’ll match them. But I want you to know that the lamb can’t lie down with the Lion yet without becoming dinner. I’d prefer Cat stew, or Chinese food. (either one is likely to be cat and OK with me.)

        • #3230258

          My god are you ever wrong!

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Heh he

          First of all I am not left wing or democrat at all. I live in Canada, our right wing is more towards your left, but as far as Canada’s left I am anything but.

          YOu also claim, that I want all soldiers out of combat, please, provide a post where I have said or even HINTED as much, I haven’t..EVER. Again, this is your rash generalisation.

          If you weren’t such a left wing nutbag, you would be able to see opinions for what they are and not just generalize anyone who doesn’t think your war in Iraq isn’t justified as a lefty.

          If you had even the slightest clue what my stand on Iraq was, you would realize just how far off base your assertions are.

          Again, just spew from a right wing zealot who knows nothing about that of which he speaks. not to worry, all the others are the same, and the left is just as absurd.

    • #3209600

      Bravo Zulu to our British cousins

      by navy moose ·

      In reply to God, I love you Brits

      I plan to hoist a pint of Bass Ale in honor of MI-5 and Scotland Yard for uncovering this and preventing it.

      Bravo Zulu!

      Navy Moose

      • #3209452

        Just to clarify

        by tphill ·

        In reply to Bravo Zulu to our British cousins

        The US intelligence intercepted terrorist communications/chatter. US, British, and Pakistan(I’m sure begrudgingly), decoded and pursued the leads. Good job to all. But wait–the real issue of concern is how they gleamed this information and if the terrorists had their privacy violated.

        • #3209442

          Export laws

          by jellimonsta ·

          In reply to Just to clarify

          Cryptography export laws?? :p

        • #3209439

          Was this post any use?

          by neilb@uk ·

          In reply to Just to clarify

          I know that you’re just trying to make some crassly obvious anti-liberal point here and also throwing in a bit of anti-Muslim crap at Pakistan but you’re not really offering anything worth reading.

          The plot was foiled when an undercover British agent infiltrated the UK-based group and passed information to the authorities. There was also a huge amount of information that played a very important role in the arrest of the 24 in London which was provided to Pakistani officials by British nationals arrested in Pakistan a week ago.

          Potentially this plot could have killed thousands and changed the face of air travel forever as no-one would have known what had happened. I’m pretty grateful to Pakistan and I think that you are a complete pillock.

        • #3209429

          I’m with you, Neil….

          by gadgetgirl ·

          In reply to Was this post any use?

          besides that, anything done to prevent terrorism has to be done – terrorists do not get, or deserve, privacy.

          Besides that, in this country, the Defence of the Realm statutes still exist.

          And for bloody good reason, too.

          It also still outweighs any EU Human Rights Crap, legally speaking.

          GG

          Edit: “legally” has a total of 3 “l”‘s, not two….

        • #3209415

          Hopefully, in regards to

          by old guy ·

          In reply to Was this post any use?

          his last sentence, “But wait–the real issue of concern is how they gleamed this information and if the terrorists had their privacy violated” s/he was being sarcastic. Surely, it couldn’t be anything else but…

        • #3209409

          Shirley….

          by gadgetgirl ·

          In reply to Hopefully, in regards to

          I hope you’re right!

          😀

          GG

        • #3209407

          I just love the way

          by old guy ·

          In reply to Shirley….

          you listen! 🙂

        • #3209404

          Pardon?

          by gadgetgirl ·

          In reply to I just love the way

          GG

          :p

        • #3209403

          Yeah, I know,

          by old guy ·

          In reply to I just love the way

          you never promised me a rose garden. :^0

        • #3209399

          I saw the sarcasm/irony, Old Guy

          by neilb@uk ·

          In reply to Hopefully, in regards to

          but I didn’t think it was particularly good and there’s no law that say I can’t call him a berk, ayway. He can make as many sarky pokes as he likes against US Liberals – I’ve seen so many on TR that they don’t register any more.

          The unnecessary ant-Islamic dig towards Pakistan, though, is the sort of crap that deserves a kicking given the real circumstances.

        • #3209396

          Totally agree on this

          by old guy ·

          In reply to I saw the sarcasm/irony, Old Guy

          one. I was just hoping he wouldn’t be a total loss and would have enought neurons to realize it. I’m just glad they stopped it before anything happened.

          There is a Pakistani that works for a company that we do business with that the two of us have had some great conversations. I have learned a lot from him on how things work in Pakistan and the Muslim ideals.

        • #3230325

          Please un-bunch the panties

          by tphill ·

          In reply to I saw the sarcasm/irony, Old Guy

          Maybe an unneccessary post, but it started a little ruffling. Oh well. Thanks for adding some more info to the events neilb. I don’t think I’m an anti-islamic because of my statements though. Maybe I should have referenced how so many people in the middle east have such reverence and sympathy for islamic exremists. Maybe anti- hate or murder, that would suit me fine. Not being a religous person at all, I consider myself to be extremely tolerant of other’s religous beliefs. But you are correct in picking up my intolerance of US liberals. I hold them and conservatives accountable for the fact on how difficult it can be to get anything of substance accomplished in this nation. Left wing liberals and right wing conservatives don’t really represent the country, but they hold power over our politial parties. Anyway, so I shot a little barb out, it hooked under your skin–and I didn’t even pull on it very hard. Then you shout anti-Islamic! That’s quite arrogant and pompous of you to assume you can read a post and determine such evil thoughts lurking in someone’s mind. Pillock’s Unite!

        • #3230304

          Fly-swatting

          by neilb@uk ·

          In reply to Please un-bunch the panties

          check it out m’boy. I post a lot. Three lines to you ain’t “bunched panties”. If I get “bunched panties”, then I’ll do more than three lines. Quaint expression. Don’t use it this side of the pond so I’ll have to guess but they don’t [i]feel[/i] bunched.

          Got you bang to rights on the anti-liberal so I don’t see why I should withdraw my anti-Islamic label. Pakistan just aided hugely in preventing an appalling plot aimed at US airlines and US citizens but – hey, it’s a Muslim country – so you just chuck one out without a conscious thought.

          Maybe you’re not anti-Islamic. What [b]are[/b] you then? You choose. 🙂

          Arrogant and pompous? Bugger! you’ve sussed me too.

        • #3230294

          hey Dad

          by jck ·

          In reply to Please un-bunch the panties

          You can’t be arsed with this kinda wanker.

          Go to the local and catch up with mates.

          Better yet, go home n give mum a good shagging!

          I’ll plug my cakehole before ye knock me daft.

          Cheers…have a good weekend. 😀

          Sonny Boy

        • #3230287

          It’s OK son

          by neilb@uk ·

          In reply to Please un-bunch the panties

          Your grandma’s coming down for the weekend – hope you remebered her 82nd birthday tomorrow – and I’m cleaning up my gaff so she won’t give me a hard time.

          Pausing and posting when I get fed up…

          Dad 😀

        • #3230216

          Neil

          by maecuff ·

          In reply to Please un-bunch the panties

          Just so I know for sure..because I want to make SURE I have a correct visual. Exactly, how many lines do you post when your panties are bunched up? I’m just asking…

        • #3230201

          Mae, sorry to leave you hanging overnight with that one

          by neilb@uk ·

          In reply to Please un-bunch the panties

          but I’d guess at least half a page with lots of CAPS and [b]bold[/b] and a few expletives.

          But I could be faking it…

          😀

          Thinking about it, though, the ironic one-liner can have a underlying knickerscrunch element, you know…

        • #3230176

          Neil

          by maecuff ·

          In reply to Please un-bunch the panties

          I read your reply and had no idea what you were talking about. I forgot I had posted that. I’m glad I didn’t misspell anything. And my night wasn’t anything close to my lovely step-daughter’s night. She turned 21 today (legal drinking age here). She went out with her friends last night, and at Midnight, they started buying her drinks. I’ve never seen her look worse than she does right this moment. She’s having a party at our house tonight. (I agreed to this because I’m a complete moron). I’m guessing she won’t be drinking too much tonight.

          I, on the other hand, feel just fine and plan to embarrass her in front of her friends. I hadn’t originally planned to do that, but she took it upon herself to lecture me this morning on the proper way to behave at her party. Big, huge mistake on her part. 🙂

    • #3230329

      Does anyone think….

      by onbliss ·

      In reply to God, I love you Brits

      ….maybe, we ought to recognize the good deed of the muslim woman who called the police, too? Maybe such recognitions will encourage the good people to stand up more and more.

      • #3230279

        Exactly

        by oz_media ·

        In reply to Does anyone think….

        I times like we are facing today, we should be thanking those who deserve thanks and rewarding those who come forward in order to encourage others to do the same.

        Let’s make a spectacle of these things and make it known, you WILL be caught, no matter what corner of the world you are working in.

        With my comments so many times about the fact that Al-Qaeda was building stronger than ever before and planning another attack, I hate to be right in these situations but it was not exactly unexpected. All these poeple who wrote off AlQaeda when Saddam was the focus (remember BinLaden?) were telling me how Afghanistan was a great place now and the mission was pretty much a success but they were wrong. AlQaeda has grown allover the world, which I was told was BS more than once. Now we see that the real threat upon America, the imminent and sure threat, was not Saddam but AlQaeda sects all over. This is what the rest of teh world has been focused on whilst they are chastized for not focusing all resources on Iraq (including the UK). I know it isn’t confirmed that this is an AlQaeda sect from England, but it sure does look and walk like one.

        • #3230271

          To be fair Oz

          by ontheropes ·

          In reply to Exactly

          You posted about the Pakistani’s as I did below too but if you said it was daylight outside I’d go to a window and check.

          The only reference I found after much searching about a law enforcement officer leaking information appeared to be opinion by a Pakistan news source regarding a Pakistani law enforcement officer.

        • #3230254

          I pulled it from MSNBC

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to To be fair Oz

          MSNBC cited/quoted it, I didn’t copy the source down but it was only yesterday.

        • #3230243

          I saw it myself and…

          by techexec2 ·

          In reply to I pulled it from MSNBC

          I saw the page myself this morning. MSNBC has since changed it. But, the excerpt showing your quotation still exists here:

          http://www.msnbc.msn.com/?search=MSNBC&q=%22information+be+released%22&submit=Search&id=11881780&FORM=AE&os=0&gs=1&p=1

        • #3230228

          A better link -Note for TechExec2 and Oz at end

          by ontheropes ·

          In reply to I saw it myself and…

          I Googled with a different search pattern and came up with this link confirming Oz’s statement with the only change being my highlight in bold. I included the complete text in case this page is “modified” as MSNBC’s page apparently was less than 3 hours ago.

          http://tinyurl.com/keur8

          Fort Bend Herald & Texas Coaster
          LONDON (AP) – British officials Friday identified 19 of the suspects accused of planning to blow up U.S.-bound aircraft in the biggest terrorist plot to be uncovered since 9/11. In Pakistan, officials reported signs of an al-Qaida connection and said they had detained a ??key person” in the case.

          Travelers saw shorter lines at airports as flight schedules slowly returned to normal, one day after the disclosure of the alleged conspiracy severely disrupted British air traffic.
          British police have arrested 24 people suspected of involvement in the plot. At least one was reportedly a woman with a small child; two others were converts to Islam. One of the suspects reportedly worked at Heathrow Airport.

          The identities of 19 were disclosed by the Bank of England as it announced it had frozen their accounts. They ranged in age from 17 to 35 and had Muslim names, many of them common in Pakistan. Pakistani officials said they were British-born.

          Pakistani officials said they had arrested five Pakistanis and two Britons in the case, including British national Rashid Rauf, arrested about a week ago and described as a ??key person” with ties to al-Qaida.

          ??We arrested him from the (Afghanistan-Pakistan) border area and on his disclosure we shared the information with British authorities, which led to further arrests in Britain,” Interior Minister Aftab Khan Sherpao The Associated Press. The five Pakistanis were described as suspected ??facilitators” of the plot.
          Later, a Pakistani intelligence official said 10 Pakistanis had been arrested Friday in the eastern district of Bhawalpur, 300 miles southwest of Islamabad, in connection with the alleged plot. A second intelligence official confirmed there had been arrests but didn’t know how many. Both spoke on condition of anonymity because of their sensitive positions.

          British and U.S. investigators, describing a plot on the scale of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, said the planners sought to use common electronic devices to detonate liquid explosives to bring down as many as 10 planes.

          The bombs were to be assembled aboard the aircraft, apparently with peroxide-based solution and everyday carry-on items such as a disposable camera or a music player, [b]two American law enforcement officials told The Associated Press. The officials spoke on condition of anonymity because Britain asked that no information be released.[/b]

          A federal law enforcement official in Washington said at least one martyrdom tape was found during raids across England on Thursday. Such a tape, as well as the scheme to strike a range of targets at roughly the same time, is a hallmark of al-Qaida.

          British Home Secretary John Reid said Britain was grateful for Pakistan’s cooperation and that officials believed the main suspects were in custody. However, the threat level in the U.K. remained at ??critical,” the highest level.

          Agents in Pakistan arrested at least seven people, including two British nationals of Pakistani origin who provided information on the terror plot, a senior government official said Friday. The arrests were made in the eastern city of Lahore and in Karachi, the official said on condition of anonymity because he did not have the authority to speak formally on the issue.

          Two were Britons arrested about a week ago, he said. The five Pakistanis were arrested on suspicion they served as local ??facilitators” for the two Britons, the official said. It wasn’t clear when they were detained.

          The Guardian newspaper, citing unidentified British government sources, said after the first two arrests were made in Pakistan, a message was sent to Britain telling the plotters: ??Do your attacks now.” That message was intercepted and decoded earlier this week, The Guardian said.

          A U.S. congressman briefed by intelligence officials, who did not want to be identified because of the sensitivity of the investigation, said U.S. intelligence had intercepted terrorist chatter.

          Authorities pressed ahead Friday with efforts to smash the purported terror ring. Two U.S. officials said British, U.S. and Pakistani investigators were trying to trace the steps of the suspects in Pakistan and determine whether some of them attended terrorist training camps there.

          Police would not say where the suspects were being held – which is not unusual in highly sensitive cases – but terrorist suspects are usually brought to the high-security Paddington Green police station, in central London.

          British law permits terrorist suspects to be interrogated for up to 28 days without being charged, although after the first 48 hours court permission is required for further detention.

          Airline passengers faced a second day of disruptions and disappointment as airports struggled to restore flight schedules.

          ??It is going to be another difficult day today, both for airports and for passengers, but there is cause for optimism that we will get more flights off today,” said Stephen Nelson, chief executive of British Airports Authority, which runs Britain’s major airports.

          At Heathrow, Europe’s busiest airport, around 70 percent of flights were running, and most inbound flights arrived on time, although flights from the United States – which increased security measures in the wake of the threat – were heavily delayed.

          The raids in Britain on Thursday followed a monthslong investigation, but U.S. intelligence officials said authorities moved quickly after learning the plotters hoped to stage a practice run within two days, with the actual attack expected just days after that.

          The test run was designed to see whether the plotters would be able to smuggle the needed materials aboard the planes, the officials said, speaking on condition of anonymity.

          Targeted were United, American and Continental flights from Britain to major U.S. destinations, which counterterrorism officials said probably included New York, Los Angeles and Washington. Los Angeles Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa said the individuals plotted to detonate liquid explosive devices on as many as 10 aircraft.

          A British police official, speaking on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the investigation, said the suspects were ??homegrown,” though it was not immediately clear if all were British citizens.

          Tariq Azim Khan, the Pakistani minister of state for information, said ??these people were born and brought up in the United Kingdom. Some of them may have parents who were immigrants from Pakistan.”

          The raids were carried out at homes in London, the nearby town of High Wycombe and in Birmingham, in central England. Police still guarded homes in High Wycombe, where the Muslim community expressed outrage that their community and children have been thrust into the international spotlight.

          ??They are considered ordinary British Muslims and they haven’t caused any harm to anyone,” accountant Mohammed Naeem said of the suspects. ??They come from decent families.”

          Naeem said the Muslim community supports efforts to promote security, but that the police have acted on faulty intelligence in the past. He cited a recent raid in London in which police were forced to apologize for shooting an innocent Muslim man.

          Many of the suspects arrested in Britain were said to be British Muslims, and neighbors said at least two were converts to Islam.

          Imtiaz Qadir, of the Waltham Forest Islamic Association, said one of the suspects was a woman in her 20s who had a 6-month-old child. ??They have taken the child too, because it needs to be with its mother.”

          Neighbors identified another suspect as Don Stewart-Whyte, 21, from High Wycombe, a convert who changed his name to Abdul Waheed.

          ??He converted to Islam about six months ago and grew a full beard,” said a neighbor, who refused to be identified. ??He used to smoke weed and drink a lot, but he is completely different now.”

          Ibrahim Savant of Walthamstow, one of the names on the Bank of England list, was a convert formerly known as Oliver, neighbors said.

          New security measures banning liquids and gels on flights remained in place Friday.

          ??I quite understand all the checks. I know why they have got to do it,” said Elaine Loman, who was hoping to catch a flight from Heathrow to Barcelona, Spain.

          The threat of liquid explosives led to a ban on carrying nearly any kind of fluid aboard an aircraft. Mothers tasted baby bottles in front of airport security guards to prove it contained milk or formula – not a component of an explosive.

          end of copied text-

          Oz – It never hurts to throw in a link instead of making claims that others may want to check and may find difficult to verify. I’ve been hit up [b]hard[/b] here before for not backing up my claims with a link or some other proof. If it’s worth your time saying something and my time reading it I suggest it may be worth it to have a link, if possible, showing the basis for your claims.

          TechExec2- If you place links into discussions, you may want to check out tinyurl.com. Its free, simple to use and reduces long urls to short ones for convenience.

        • #3230204

          I know

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to A better link -Note for TechExec2 and Oz at end

          I have been there too and have called many others to validate claims. In my case, I quoted what was common news, it wasn’t even contestable, really.

          But you’re right.

          As for tiny URL, it was an issue when you used to post long URL’s, they would be broken by the restricted character length in the inout box. They have since fixed it so even long URL”s should still hyperlink correctly. but you knew that 😉

        • #3230163

          Thanks for the tip, and…

          by techexec2 ·

          In reply to A better link -Note for TechExec2 and Oz at end

          Thanks for the tip. I was actually aware of tinyurl. I’ve used it but since copying the long link works, I just pasted it in this time.

          I like you a lot better when you sound like a real human as you did in this post.

        • #3230151

          Check this out.

          by ontheropes ·

          In reply to A better link -Note for TechExec2 and Oz at end

        • #3212580

          Techexec

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to A better link -Note for TechExec2 and Oz at end

          I am a real human, it’s just that I find most opinions I read here are seeimgly from another planet, planet America that is.

          The views shared here, politically, morally and ethically are almost an exact opposite of ANY other views I hear no matter what part of the globe they come from.

          When I hear similar opinions from Australia, Canada, Germany, UK, even India and then read some whack crap[ that the US government has force fed American citizens, it’s pretty hard to speak to these people like humans. The bizarre part is that they are usually so set in their views that it is even harder to comprehend how one country in the world has 330 million people that think completely differently from the rest of the world.

          It honestl;y is just liek a different planet, even when I visit it’s bizarre to people watch all day and see just how different Americans are from teh rest of the world. I share more common views with people in England, Africa, Egypt, India, and France than with Americans. In fact they all do too, that’s why the rest of the world just doesn’t ‘get’ Americans and why you are slandered as a backward and uneducated nation. You just have a completely different idea of life than any other part of the world it seems and THAT is hard to deal with. I can appreciate a difference of opinion, but in teh case of the US it is like a mass hypnosis or something nobody else is able to relate to.

        • #3212548

          Oz: Oops! I was speaking to NeverBusted

          by techexec2 ·

          In reply to A better link -Note for TechExec2 and Oz at end

          I’m so sorry. I was replying to NeverBusted in my last post. Now I’m probably in trouble…again. Frankly, I don’t want to be “in trouble”, permanently, with anyone. And, I’m a forgiving and understanding guy with anyone who is sincere and doesn’t do too much damage in the process. That is what I demand of myself, and recommend for everyone else.

          We (the world) would do a whole lot better if we spent more time trying to understand and appreciate each other rather than be confrontational. On the other hand, when the other side has a “gun” in your face, it’s not the time to be empathetic. I do not believe in pacificsm. You won’t find me at an anti-war protest.

          I’m sure you know there isn’t a universal “American” view. And, a lot of the responses you are getting here on TR are some of the most extreme opinions. We are all greatly influenced by how events are covered in the media, no matter what country we live in. Some Americans are better at resisting merely “absorbing” what the media says than others (not as many as I would like). Perhaps that is where it comes from (what you are referring to about Americans).

          I can tell you without any reservation that there is not one universal “American” view among individual Americans. However, when attacked as America was on September 11, and as events continue on year after year, Americans of all sorts discard all differences and join together to defeat the attacker. That is the major mistake by Al Qaeda. It does not matter what they do. Americans will join tighter and tighter together the more they attack us.

          So…

          Your original post that caused so much reaction in this discussion was about a stupid arrogant American law enforcement disclosure of a secret disclosed to them by the British. Assuming it’s true (who knows?), it was stupid and arrogant and I despise it. I can be a proud American and still decry this action if it really occurred as it apparently did.

          Despite any differences, I and everyone I know, consider Canada and Canadians to be a GREAT friend. America and Americans are also great friends of Canada and Canadians. We have so much more in common than not. So, it’ just not friendly to write such provocative words about Americans. You recognized this and retracted it. That’s the end of it for me.

          All the best to you…

        • #3231180

          No prob, you are somewhat off though

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to A better link -Note for TechExec2 and Oz at end

          It’s easy to misinterpret who a post is aimed at when the max thread level is reached.

          As for Americans and why they think a certain way, yes you are right. Unfortunately the mad masses that speak the loudest are the ones who represent America to outsiders, not those who have more realistic or sane views.

          As for Canada and America being so friendly, you are right we once were. The disdain most Canadians have toward Americans has increased a great deal since you seem to support cowboy Bush’s Iraqi roundup. When I come down for business or fun at the race tracks, it’s getting harder and harder to find a friend who will actually go to the States. Most don’t want anything to do with you guys anymore (to put it politely and not echo their true sentiments). What was once a very freindly arrangement has been permanently tarnished by the US fisheries, logging companies and abuse of the free trade agreement (to the tune of several billion in tarrifs being owed to Canada now). So the effects of US corporate greed on Canadian companies over the last 20 years has turned many Canadians against America. The friendship you once saw just isn’t there today as it was in the 70’s and 80’s.

          You mention AlQaeda attackign you, but you couldn’t be further off the mark. YES, AlQaeda needed to be stopped and the entire world was at your side in order to see the mission in Afghanistan through to the end. When everyone in the US was cheering the success in Afghanistan and flying off to conquer Iraq, others around the world, includng myself, backed off support as the war in Iraq wqas not properly justified nor was the plan followed as set out by Bush in front of the allies and UN, he went against his word to invade Iraq. He didn’t use force to complete inspections (which actually were moving ahead as planned)as he said he would, allies supported that, he simply invaded the country and hjustified it by instilling more fear of attacks into Americans. The wrong fear anyway, we all had something real to fear, AlQaeda, not Saddam.

          I wondered why Afghani’s were left to return to their old ways. Why the USA had all of a sudden stopped their focus on AlQaeda as the key target. The US governmet was FULLY aware that AlQaeda sects were rebuilding stronger than before in over 60 countries, INCLUDING YOUR OWN.
          But Saddam was seen as a more imperative threat?

          So YOUR government turned their backs on a allies and a real threat in order to enter a senseless war due to a possible threat.

          AlQaeda, meanwhile, was rebuilding as most people around the world knew, but so many Americans here were dead set that Afghanistan was a great success, women were in school and water was clean. It WAS when everyone was still IN A
          Afghanistan, but the US government turned over control to the same gangs of thugs that were stopping such progress to begin with. Women were soon stoned and spat upon in the streets again, started wearing bourqas again, the water wells that were constructed were quickluy destroyed and teh only women in government were tossed out because ‘the infidels’ had left. Many had said it was premature and that AlQaeda was rebuilding and planning another attack, this was set aside because Saddam was seen as a great threat. The Taliban were never disbanded or stopped, they still had a major foothold in Kandahar and everyone knew it but ignored it.

          Now we see that Iraq was not the immediate target that requried removing inspectors and launching a full scale invasion, despite allied requests and BETTER JUDGEMENT by other parties.

          But nooooooo, I am sure there will be the same cluster of people here defending America’s every move, no matter how wrong it is proven to be.

          You pretty much turned your backs on AlQaeda, yes we know there was still intelligence tracking and nobody was actually forgotten, but the FOCUS was placed elsewhere, meanwhile UK and Pakistani officials managed to thwart another attempt at terrorizing your country, not from Iraq but from Enlgand, as predicted several years ago by the same authorities. Were they AlQadea? Most likely or some fanatical group that relates to them anyway.

          It’s just that when people say what the general concensus around the globe is, many Americans are on TR start staying how world news is all left BS that is wrong and that the US is right.

          In closing, sorry for the length of this post and the typos everywhere, the relationship between Canada and the US has been scarred almost irrepairably by your governnment’s greed and corporate America’s abuse of Canada’s resources (understanding we need that trade to boost both of our economies of course), your government has changed the face of America for all the world to see, and the world just doesn’t like it. America is farther from being anyone’s ‘ally’ or brother that it has been in history, I think.

          Don’t fool yourself, yes there are great people in the States, unfortunately we just don’t see them too often as they are quickly muted by right wong zealots who scream their mantra from the rooftops.

          Sorry to be a downer, really I don’t actually hate the US or Americans in general. I am also not an AntiWar guy or someone who would attend an anti war protest either. I agree these terrorists must be stopped, I agree that thwarting terrorism must be a global effort.

          In the case of Iraq, you pulled out the bulk of your Afghan support too early, even the Afghans said so and were ignored when they needed more support (this was not just by the US either). But the whole Iraqi thing is neither properly justified, correct or even successful at this time, meanwhile the REAL threats continue.

          Bush should be nailed to a post and pelted with stones for a while. He shoul dbe held accountable for rash decisions that have destroyed the lives of MANY mroe thousands than ALQaeda ever kille din New York, especially seeing as teh people you are fighting now, have no relation to those who attacked you. It’s just a paranoid knee jerk reaction that even Bush agrees was due to misinformation.

          How can you support it even if the president agrees he was wrongly informed? If HE was then you were too, but not able to admit it.

          NOTE: I’ll probably reread this and remove a lot of it as it truly is just running on.

        • #3231095

          Oz: Reply to you

          by techexec2 ·

          In reply to A better link -Note for TechExec2 and Oz at end

          ABOUT AMERICAN SUPPORT FOR THE IRAQ WAR AND BUSH

          I think a lot of the American people share a lot of the complaints you are expressing. These days in America, support for the Iraq war and President Bush is not anywhere near what it was at the beginning. In the beginning, the big justification was that Saddam had or would soon have nukes and there was a serious risk they would be passed to terrorists who would detonate them inside the USA. We now know Saddam did not have any nukes. I don’t think the American people would have supported the Iraq war without that threat, now proven false, and polls bear that out.

          Bush barely won reelection in 2004. If he lost Ohio, he would have lost the election.

          Some recent evidence of the opinion change:

          – Senator Joe Lieberman, who I admire, lost the senate race primary for his reelection as senator in Connecticut. He is a democrat in a state that votes democratic. He lost because he has been vocal in supporting the President and the war.

          – Bush’s approval rating is very low in America these days. In one recent poll (link below), Bush’s approval rating was just 34% and the disapproval rating was 58%.

          Poll: Iraq keeping Bush approval down (May 8, 2006)
          http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/05/08/bush.poll/

          Poll details
          http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2006/images/05/08/rel12a.pdf

          ABOUT FREE TRADE AND ITS NEGATIVE EFFECTS

          I blame my own government for problems (in America) caused by free trade agreements. I don’t blame any other government. The Canadian government willingly signed the NAFTA agreement. I suggest you should blame them. Somebody in Canada is winning from it. Blame them also.

          As for unpaid tariffs, I don’t know anything about that. If tariffs are owed, they should be paid.

          —–

          Regarding:

          “…How can you support it even if the president agrees he was wrongly informed?…”

          Answer: I think the significant majority of Americans do not support it anymore. The war bill is about $300 billion (with a ‘b’) so far and no end in sight. But, it appears to me that just pulling out of Iraq and leaving a complete mess would be making yet another mistake. I agree with Colin Powell, who said “you break it, you “own” it” (paraphrase). Not literally “own” of course. It means that we just cannot cut and run.

          —–

          I hope the world can heal soon after all of this.

          Take care…

        • #3231086

          Oz: Something else

          by techexec2 ·

          In reply to A better link -Note for TechExec2 and Oz at end

          Adding onto my previous reply…

          Even though Americans voice strong disapproval of the Iraq war and its current President, I think Americans still strongly support America. I know the heart of America is still there. After the dust has cleared, I hope it will be more visible to all the rest of you.

          All the best…

        • #3202155

          Same conclusion differemt path

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to A better link -Note for TechExec2 and Oz at end

          While I completely accept your explanation that so many Americans have since seen the light as new evidence came to the surface, I have to question why such a delayed response.

          Firstly, nukes. Bush’s speechwriter came forward just after writing the speech where they confirmed Saddam had TRIED to obtain infomation on nuclear arms. CIA posted in Iraq had followed that lead for some time and returned to teh USA with a report stating there was NO conclusive evidence that Saddam had sought to purchase nukes nor had the connections/means to do so.

          That same evening Bush’s gave an address stating they had confirmed Saddam was seeking nuclear arms. His speechwriter was ToLD to lie. When I posted this info and even backed it with links, it was bvlown off as BS and I tool a good flaming. (The president wouldn’t lie afterall!)

          WMD, yes Bush instilled fear of an imminent attack on US citizens, inspectors were completing their job on schedul and had reportedly found nothing ecept unused warheads incapable of caqrrying a payload to the USA. When Allies met with teh UN, it was decided that if inspectors wre not allowed to complete their work (as they had been refused before) then the ALLIES would use force to see their completion, if needed. (This is the resolution Kerry supported, not invading Iraq, he hasn’t flip flopped on that decision, as many still lamely imply)

          Instead of letting inspections complete, an estimated 6 weeks max, Bush removed inspectors and launched a full scale invasion of the country, NOT what he had planned and what allies supported. So you were on your own, and Americans lambasted other countries for not joinign in, completely clueless of what had really transpired, and when tolds, simply refusing to accept it. “Lefty BS” it was called , and Kerry flip flopped. Actually it was BUSH that flip flopped and went against HIS word.

          People justified Iraq by stating they were saving their families from certain doom. How did they get that idea? Bush never said so, but it was implied in his every word.

          Meanwhile, those complaining that Afghanistan was resorting to its old ways,and AlQaeda was more important as they were reforming al over the world wih a vengeance, were also told they were clueless and incorrectly informed. More lefty BS was all I heard.

          Now we see that a group, suspected to be an offshot or direct relation to AlQaeda was plannign another air attack on the US, that no amount of success in Iraq would have stopped.

          I ave said so many times that your media is too carefully crafted by teh government, it is operated by right wing corporate bigwigs with an alternate agenda. But this is all lefty BS too, now we can see the differences in what is reported and how the real truth comes to light. Yet I have no doubt that many here will continue to state everything is lefty BS, unless it was reported in the US as such.

          It’s sad, who wants to be right about such horrors? But I have to say, I told you so.

          Americans I don’t mind them. I work with Americans, I make a heap of money off of Americans, I have had offices there, I still conduct business there and when younger I thought America was the cat’s meow. It’s too bad that one man can completely tarnish your reputation in a few years, creating global distrust in anything American.

          As for teh tarriffs, our government was pushed into NAFTA, we have a couple of Canadian peers here that are very politically aware of such issues and have shown the light before.

          As far as unpaid tarriffs, try investigating the softwood lumber deal between the US and Canada, (there’s lots on Canadian sites) we are owed so much money in collected tarriffs by your government you’d better get those presses well oiled for a while.

          Thanks for being civil, sorry if I hammered Americans a bti hard but I think you actually see both sides.

          And yes, you have a right to be a proud American, just as I do a proud Brit or Canuck, but that doesn’t mean we are all doing the right thing. I agree that the Canadian government is as hooped as any other, if not more, I just don’t go around statin ghow they are always right and doing the right thing, I got a grip on reality, the governments have their own agenda, if it benefits us in some way, great, but don’t expect it from them.

        • #3202125

          Oz: Reply to you

          by techexec2 ·

          In reply to A better link -Note for TechExec2 and Oz at end

          Regarding:

          [begin quote]
          “…While I completely accept your explanation that so many Americans have since seen the light as new evidence came to the surface, I have to question why such a delayed response…”
          [end quote]

          I’m not in the government. I’m just another American citizen. But, this is what I saw. I don’t think there was any inappropriate delay in the response. There was a series of events shortly before the war began. Some of them were:

          – Colin Powell, Secretary of State, went before the U.N. and shared intelligence that “proved” things that could not be proven by the U.N. weopons inspectors.

          – Donald Rumsfeld, Secretary of Defense said while referring to the WMD (approximately) “…we know he has them and we know where they are…”. It was a dramatic and strong statement.

          – Our Congress got behind the President and voted to give him authority to go to war if Saddam did not adhere to U.N. demands. Obviously, in hindsight, he could not “give up” WMD that he did not have. Apparently, it was one of the most expensive bluffs in history.

          The entire U.S. government had gotten behind going to war if the President chose to do so and certain requirements were met. I think it is completely understandable why the American people got behind the government immediately before the war, and continued to give the President all benefit from any doubt for a lot of months afterward. The country was united against a threat.

          If you personally held a different opinion before and during the war, that’s great for you. But, I don’t see anything wrong with the American people’s response during this period under the circumstances.

          Opinion in America really began to change when no WMD were found and when they finally declared there were no WMD and the forces were not looking for them anymore. You know, such a declaration did not HAVE to be made. A truly evil government could have manufactured a lie. Think about it.

          —–

          Regarding:

          [begin quote]
          “…Firstly, nukes. Bush’s speechwriter came forward just after writing the speech where they confirmed Saddam had TRIED to obtain infomation on nuclear arms. CIA posted in Iraq had followed that lead for some time and returned to teh USA with a report stating there was NO conclusive evidence that Saddam had sought to purchase nukes nor had the connections/means to do so.

          That same evening Bush’s gave an address stating they had confirmed Saddam was seeking nuclear arms. His speechwriter was ToLD to lie. When I posted this info and even backed it with links, it was bvlown off as BS and I tool a good flaming. (The president wouldn’t lie afterall!)

          WMD, yes Bush instilled fear of an imminent attack on US citizens, inspectors were completing their job on schedul and had reportedly found nothing ecept unused warheads incapable of caqrrying a payload to the USA. When Allies met with teh UN, it was decided that if inspectors wre not allowed to complete their work (as they had been refused before) then the ALLIES would use force to see their completion, if needed. (This is the resolution Kerry supported, not invading Iraq, he hasn’t flip flopped on that decision, as many still lamely imply)

          Instead of letting inspections complete, an estimated 6 weeks max, Bush removed inspectors and launched a full scale invasion of the country, NOT what he had planned and what allies supported. So you were on your own, and Americans lambasted other countries for not joinign in, completely clueless of what had really transpired, and when tolds, simply refusing to accept it. “Lefty BS” it was called , and Kerry flip flopped. Actually it was BUSH that flip flopped and went against HIS word.

          People justified Iraq by stating they were saving their families from certain doom. How did they get that idea? Bush never said so, but it was implied in his every word…”
          [end quote]

          I’ve read these stories too. All I can tell you is that if the strongest of these stories were provably true, it would be up to the Congress to do something about it (impeachment). That is how our stable government works. I have my opinion and will be voting accordingly.

          —–

          Regarding:

          [begin quote]
          “…It’s too bad that one man can completely tarnish your reputation in a few years, creating global distrust in anything American…”
          [end quote]

          As I said in my previous post, I can tell you that the heart of Americans is unchanged. And, there is great dissatisfaction with how many things have been done. And, even so, the American people still support America, as they should and must. Our system is designed to be a stable one. Let’s see what happens in the November 2006 and 2008 elections.

          —–

          Regarding:

          [begin quote]
          “…As for teh tarriffs, our government was pushed into NAFTA, we have a couple of Canadian peers here that are very politically aware of such issues and have shown the light before…”
          [end quote]

          I don’t know anything about the negotiations leading up to the NAFTA agreement. But, if those on the Canadian side are now saying they were pushed, I would be doubtful of that claim. If Canadians are unhappy about NAFTA, it helps those Canadian politicians to claim this, right? If I were Canadian, I would hold those Canadians resposible for things I viewed as mistakes or weaknesses. I can tell you that if an American official made a claim of mistake or weakness like that, Americans would be not accept it and would blame that person, not the other side. That kind of “cop out” would never be accepted by Americans.

          Example: Americans have a low opinion of the war. They do not accept the claim that “everybody had the same bad intelligence”. It is not an acceptable excuse. Vice President Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld have far lower ratings than the President does. Check it out.

          —–

          In closing: I think we are living through a dark time. It’s understandable why you or I might be dark about it. We should be. Some serious mistakes have been made. I think it’s great that Saddam is gone, but that alone does not justify the entire war. Wacky terrorists are going crazy, instilling terror and chaos around the globe, and are killing large numbers of innocent people.

          But, laying down arms is not a solution. These terrorists are not going to go away. Remember how they look at all of us. In their heart of hearts, we are all “infidels” to them. If these crazy people EVER get WMD, it will literally set the world on fire. That is what is at stake here.

          So, with all due respect for you…

          I have a suggestion for you in your angst about America: Try to remember that America is a living, breathing idea, not a man. That idea has 300 million people behind it and they never agree about all of the details. Right now, they largely agree that the current leadership has got some serious serious problems. But, they largely agree about the American idea. The heart of America is still there. And, I am still hopeful that there will be a brighter day.

          All the best to you…

          edited for punctuation

        • #3202114

          Bravo

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to A better link -Note for TechExec2 and Oz at end

          Very well done.

          I must mainly agree, with minor exceptions, but just to be clear, I have never suggested laying down arms and not responding ‘accordingly’ to such a global issue.

          I think that’s where I lost it; there was VERY little to support the WMD claims but the US government bought into a tip from an informant, known as ‘cueball’. Allies sat around with your government and suggested those claims be confirmed before action was taken, not that they didn’t want to take action.

          They (your allies/the once United Nations) wanted the inspections to complete and then make a decision. The only findings were disposed, unarmed weapons just as promised. Bush knew it was sketchy evidence, it isn’t like someone just pulled one over on him. We can always be fooled, but when we are warned and still fooled, are we fit to lead others (in this case to war)?
          I feel he should be tried/impeached, and if guilty then sentenced just like any other man. Unfortunately politicians don’t usually get uncovered until they are no longer in a position of power (Yes Canada and everyother government too). We just tossed a sketcy bunch because they werecaught with their hands in the cookie jar (It’s nice to have a two party government sometimes).

          So we will agree to disagree, I think he acted regardless of his own better knowledge. You seem to imply he was duped (for lack of a better word), which is only human of course.

          Moving on… NAFTA, yes your comment is 150% bang on the money and I agree wholly. I don’t feel it was actually that simplistic in the case of NAFTA though, JamesRL has worked with Canadian politicians and campaigns for years now, I’ll have to see if he can enlighten us both; he’s definitely the most politically aware Canadian I’ve heard from, much more so than our current PM anyway.

          Trade between our nations is essential. You NEED our resources, we NEED your money, nobody denies that. What I see is an overwhelming need for our resources more and more. Friends have lost their livelihoods, businesses have suffered etc. We have a working and supposedly beneficial system in place, it needs adjusting/fixing/ammending, to balance the benefit though. Is this our dumbb politicians? Of course, and America’s dumb politicians too, they sold you guys short in many ways too by importing from here.

          Bush just made a mistake; a calculated mistake perhaps, a horrendous, lethal and economically destructive one for the entire world. I can not forgive him for selective ignorance though. The questions were there all along, he pompously ignroed them in the name of the America.

          But….

          I actually agree with most of what you say and the reasons/morals behind saying them. I especially liked your analogy, but just don’t see the same reasons for these issues you do.

          For your viewpoints, you are right, I got a completely different story from world news though. When I said as much, I too was laughed at, Bush did the same thing to the allied nations.

          You seem to see it as more of a mistaken and reactive issue, but a mistake not realized until later on.

          We all saw something else around the world, but US news denied it all and US news won. I like more collective news reading and weighing the odds based on similarities of credible sources. I credit other country’s news reports even when they contradict what our government is telling us. I won’t deem government a credible source of informaton, I always look into issues, question things and heed other comments too. I am hard to convince.

          Sorry, for going on and on again….I hate it when that happens. Hopefully a few less typos this time, I don’t know how you read the last one! 😀

        • #3202093

          Oz: Reply to you

          by techexec2 ·

          In reply to A better link -Note for TechExec2 and Oz at end

          Thanks…

          —–

          [begin quote]
          “…So we will agree to disagree, I think he acted regardless of his own better knowledge. You seem to imply he was duped (for lack of a better word), which is only human of course…
          [end quote]

          Actually, I didn’t say. I really don’t know the truth. And, I don’t have to know the truth. It does not matter if it is incompetence or ignorance. I only know that I hold them all responsible. All of them. And, I think the current opinion polls show that most Americans generally feel that way about it.

          My guess? This is purely a guess. I do not think he consciously made a choice against his own better knowledge. That would be a truly evil act. Could be but I don’t “guess” so. Reports are that there were conflicting opinions in the Administration. In the end, I think he made some very important decisions based on his gut. There is a place for gut in many decisions. People who wait for complete information are indecisive and usually late. But, a mistake based on gut can be very serious indeed. Also, based on many TV appearances, he has a high level arrogance. He has shown great trouble admitting errors. But, also based on those TV appearances, he has a heart and is not a bad man. And, he is not wrong about EVERYTHING.

          No excuses. Absolutely none. But, even without mistakes, this has got to be one of the WORST times to be President of the USA ever. It’s a tough job without major global problems. Still, no excuses. At all.

          —–

          [begin quote]
          “…I got a completely different story from world news though…”
          [end quote]

          That’s what I meant about the news. We are all greatly influenced by the news we are exposed to. Reading alternate sources helps but they are all spinning it one way or the other. I think the truth takes time to come to light sometimes.

          —–

          [begin quote]
          “…Friends have lost their livelihoods, businesses have suffered etc. We have a working and supposedly beneficial system in place, it needs adjusting/fixing/ammending, to balance the benefit though. Is this our dumbb politicians? Of course, and America’s dumb politicians too, they sold you guys short in many ways too by importing from here…”
          [end quote]

          I know you know that Canada is not alone in this. Trade agreements have caused a lot of painful changes inside the USA. The loss of manufacturing jobs is regularly reported in the news. Computer programming jobs are going to India by the thousands. The “unemployment rate” is reported as being low, but the employment to population ratio (PE) is down in the USA compared to 2001. How can THAT be good? Around the globe, there are a lot of new winners and a lot of new losers as a result of global trade. Many people are having to make large adjustments to their lives.

          I think the key to success is to get out of the way and try to be in position to be one of the winners. For example, if you have a union manufacturing job in the USA, get moving! Your life is going to change if it hasn’t already.

          —–

          After all of the sh*t that has happened, I am optimistic that things are going to get better. There are strong checks and balances on government power in the USA. If our current Prez chose to do something wild again during the last two years of his term, I believe the Congress would stop him, even WITH the current Republican majority. I am optimistic about America. So, I am also optimistic about friendships with Canadians and all others.

          All the best to you…

        • #3202092

          Oz: Something else

          by techexec2 ·

          In reply to A better link -Note for TechExec2 and Oz at end

          Addendum to my last post…

          I also believe that if there was a good reason to take decisive action, the Congress and the people would support the Prez. That is, in spite of the current opinion polls, the government is able to take action if necessary and will have the support of the Congress and the people.

          So, for example, I just hope the Iranians have a change of heart, cooperate fully with the U.N., and satisfy everyone’s concerns about their nuclear program.

          Take care…

      • #3230275

        Check this out too.

        by ontheropes ·

        In reply to Does anyone think….

        [b]ISLAMABAD, Aug. 11 (Xinhua)[/b] —
        [i]Pakistani intelligence agencies have helped the British authorities foil a terror plot to blow up several passenger planes flying to the United States from Britain, local newspaper and TV channel reported on early Friday.

        “The arrests in the United Kingdom have followed active intelligence cooperation between Pakistan, the United Kingdom and the United States,” said Tasnim Aslam, spokesperson of Pakistani Foreign Office, late Thursday night, quoted by the newspaper The News.

        The Pakistani agencies have been working closely with British anti-terror police, monitoring “for some time” the activities of suspected terrorists, Aslam said.[/i]

        From: http://tinyurl.com/rxn89

        Google news for “Pakistani intelligence” and there are many more references.

        I looked it up because this line in the original post interested me. [i]There are also understood to be links to Pakistan.[/i]

        Now I know.

        It appears that there were a lot of people cooperating to prevent mass murder. All should be congratulated.

        • #3230273

          Yes

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Check this out too.

          As noted earlier in teh thread, this was MAINLY due to Pakistans warning, even before US or UK forces were tipped off, it was Pakistan’s efforts that raised the awareness.

        • #3230269

          The day I just start believing you or anyone

          by ontheropes ·

          In reply to Yes

          else, [b]including[/b] Max, or the NYT or Pravda is the day they can just blow my brains out because I’m no longer a free man.

          Your statement, “this was MAINLY due to Pakistans warning” appears to be dead on correct.

        • #3230261

          Kudos to the Pakistanis

          by x-marcap ·

          In reply to The day I just start believing you or anyone

          I salute you!

        • #3230255

          It’s all BS

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Kudos to the Pakistanis

          I said it remember? Or are you, as with most right wing freaks shows, just being randomly selective in what you choose to believe again.

        • #3202030

          OZ, I apply the Goofus MacDuff test to you.

          by x-marcap ·

          In reply to It’s all BS

          Analyze everthing wonderfully, but unfailingly your conclusion is always dead wrong… You are magnificent in that aspect.

          Unless you address me personally, No, I won’t read you. If I agree with you, it is always enough to make me look for the nearest defibrilator or wonder if I have flatlined on an eeg…

        • #3277177

          X

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to It’s all BS

          [b]sarcasm[/b]

          Pronunciation: ‘s?r-“ka-z&m

          Function: noun

          Etymology: French or Late Latin; French sarcasme, from Late Latin sarcasmos, from Greek sarkasmos, from sarkazein to tear flesh, bite the lips in rage, sneer, from sark-, sarx flesh; probably akin to Avestan thwar&s- to cut

          1 : a sharp and often satirical or ironic utterance designed to cut or give pain
          2 a : a mode of satirical wit depending for its effect on bitter, caustic, and often ironic language that is usually directed against an individual b : the use or language of sarcasm

          synonym: WIT

        • #3230209

          Agreed

          by onbliss ·

          In reply to Check this out too.

          Anyone who helps should be duely recognized and congratulated. Whatever that is required!

          My focus was on the common people, as they are crucial to nipping things in the bud. Moreover it was a muslim women, so one more reason to celebrate the presence of sane, moderate and good folks.

          ps: Ofcourse, I am assuming it was altruistic intentions, as I did not see much information about the woman in the news. I guess for obvious reasons.

    • #3202053

      Well, we don’t have it right yet……

      by gadgetgirl ·

      In reply to God, I love you Brits

      see the following for absolute proof of that. . . . . . . . .

      http://tinyurl.com/fuqgc

      not only that, but also . . . . . . .

      http://tinyurl.com/g5374

      so much for tighter security. Just miffed that they can do so right, yet do so wrong all at the same time.

      Can I emigrate, please?

      GG

      • #3199510

        Yay :|

        by ontheropes ·

        In reply to Well, we don’t have it right yet……

        I’m reminded of the Keystone Cops just like when I was a cop.(Man, do I feel old.)

      • #3199488

        You’re going to love this one

        by tig2 ·

        In reply to Well, we don’t have it right yet……

        US TSA has determined that gel filled bras will not be allowed on flights. Marketed as Wonderbra and others in the States, these gel filled demi bras are now considered a threat.
        http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/airtravel/prohibited/new-items.shtm

        Prosthetics ARE allowed but a mastectomy/lumpectomy patient must disclose that the she is a cancer survivor and the prosthesis must be scanned.

        Don’t get me started… Happy thoughts. Must think happy thoughts…

        GGGGRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!

        • #3199481

          Where better to hide though?

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to You’re going to love this one

          Sure, these people have already been through a lot, but if the explosives ARE coming on in liquid form, this seems like just another way to get them in.

          The BIG problem is what will happen if a stripper decides to go on a working vacation. Will she be allowed on the plane with her emplants? :0

          Where does this end?

          Does ANYONE know what amount is needed to take a plane down? What is the volume of liquid explosives required?

          Does anyone see the liquid/gel ban lasting?

        • #3199475

          Depends on placement

          by jamesrl ·

          In reply to Where better to hide though?

          I’ve seen some pics of planes that landed with 4’x8′ holes in them. No one even died. But in other cases much smaller holes can take down a plane.

          A minute amount in a difficult to acces place could start a fire that would be challenging to put out. Take out a wing or stabilizer…. But both of these things would be almost impossible for a passenger to do.

          James

        • #3199471

          What will happen

          by tig2 ·

          In reply to Where better to hide though?

          Yes, I frankly DO see the ban lasting. It is a valid approach to taking down an aircraft.

          Unfortunately, the cancer patient who has to fly for work will no longer have options. She will opt for reconstruction whether she wants to or not- because MANY patients don’t want to be forced into making such a disclosure.

          For a very long time I refused to discuss my history. I didn’t have to, you couldn’t tell if I was clothed. When my partner and I became more serious, I had to tell him. Not fun.

          I have no intention of getting on an airplane again. I don’t want to be in a position where I am forced to explain missing parts to someone who barely speaks enough English to communicate- and that describes many of the agents at my local airport. There are some things that I don’t want to have to explain.

          And don’t ask me why that is different than the disclosures I have made here. It just is.

        • #3199440

          Tig

          by x-marcap ·

          In reply to What will happen

          You know we love you, and respect you…

          That is the difference…

        • #3199433

          You are absolutely correct

          by tig2 ·

          In reply to Tig

          That is a major part of it. And even here, it took awhile.

          I’m getting better. It just hurts to think of the women that will be so negatively impacted by it. I guess I see it from the standpoint of “haven’t we been through enough???”

          I understand the need for safety. But I’ll be in the bar car of the train with Tech Exec and NeverBusted. Until it hits the trains too.

        • #3199476

          It doesn’t look like

          by ontheropes ·

          In reply to You’re going to love this one

          it’s going to be long before any flight passengers are going to have to strip and be issued hospital gowns and slippers. Buy new clothes when you land.

          The last time I flew, (February of this year?) I stopped 10 feet from the Security checkpoint and threw a lighter into my carry-on. They were looking right at me. There were already three lighters in there and all were still there when I got home.

          In the past I’ve legally carried concealed weapons . They weren’t concealed in a bra or ever used illegally.

          My opinion? http://tinyurl.com/zeoud Don’t get me started either. 😀

        • #3199467

          Second!

          by techexec2 ·

          In reply to It doesn’t look like

          I’ll second that fix!

        • #3199456

          To paraphrase a quote from a friend of mine

          by ontheropes ·

          In reply to Second!

          It’s amazing how smart I think you are when we agree.

        • #3199455

          Likewise…

          by techexec2 ·

          In reply to To paraphrase a quote from a friend of mine

        • #3199472

          It’s only a matter of time…

          by techexec2 ·

          In reply to You’re going to love this one

          It’s only a matter of time until we ALL must go through those new 3D see-through machines. There is nothing to stop terrorists from SWALLOWING their liquid/gel materials inside some kind of balloon, right? The only way to detect THAT is a high-tech 3D see-through “x-ray” type of picture.

          None of our privates will be private in a picture like that.

          Flying used to be fun…

          Maybe trains will come back. I’ll see you in the bar car…

        • #3199466

          I’m with you

          by tig2 ·

          In reply to It’s only a matter of time…

          Until they become a target too. Wonder if you can get a decent martini on a train???

          Sheesh!

        • #3199464

          And even after those precautions are taken

          by ontheropes ·

          In reply to It’s only a matter of time…

          I think that if someone truly sets out to kill a bunch of people they likely will kill a bunch of people. I don’t think that’s ever going to change.

          I’ll see you in the bar car. The first round is on my tab.

        • #3199465

          On a lighter note…

          by techexec2 ·

          In reply to You’re going to love this one

          On a lighter note…

          The government has now officially declared what the men have always known. Women use those things as WEOPONS!

          [sorry…couldn’t resist…I know this is not really a joke…you have a lot of company, sympathy, empathy, respect, and support]

        • #3199461

          I wondered how long that one would take

          by tig2 ·

          In reply to On a lighter note…

          Cute! 🙂

          (Gee, and women didn’t know you men KNEW!)

        • #3199458

          Actually

          by ontheropes ·

          In reply to On a lighter note…

          that was pretty good. :p

        • #3199457

          Thanks…

          by techexec2 ·

          In reply to Actually

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