Have you been effected by the recent flooding?

Its just a different class of people. People who realize they are not entitled to anything and are thankful for what they have and what they get. They understand that you actually have to work for a living.

I'm sure we have all seen the emails that floated around after Katrina that talked about all of the disasters that have happened in the US prior and post Katrina in which people behaved like people and not animals.

Sad but true.

comparing the great catastrophes through our the last century and compare how the people either rose to the challenge or wallowed in self pity.

Is it something in the water that makes some people better?

Is it the culture they live in?

Is it the way they were raised?

What makes some people, better?

New Orleans (and about 100 miles on either side of it west-to-east) were hit by a hurricane. There was little law enforcement or military stayed there to keep order.

There's a lot of law enforcement and state national guard troops there helping, btw. Watch CNN.

As well you should know, cities are like a rat cage. The minute things get too crowded or desperate, the adults start eating their own.

This is rural America being most greatly flooded, where the government has been least concerned in funding reenforcement of the levees.

Have you noticed that St. Louis isn't having levee problems? Go figure.

Gotta protect an arch, rather than our farmers.

Why should we need law enforcement and/or military present for human beings to behave like human beings?
If I were involved in a flood or other natural disaster my first thought isn't let me go next door, kill my neighbor, rape his daughter and steal his TV WTF?!
Could the gov't have responded faster? Probably. Is that an excuse for that type of behavior? NO!
If the people would have pulled together and helped each other as the people in the Mid West do time and again, the outcome could have been much different.

Problem was, they were mostly the ones leading the raiding and stealing (remember the story about the cop who got arrested in Texas for driving an Escalade that was from a lot in Nawlins...tip of the iceberg, from what I understand).

I have a friend that was down there working MSO, and have met a few people that have migrated north since, and they all shared similar stories (which leads me to believe it).

I went to Nawlins a couple months after Katrina (for the Bears-Saints game played at LSU). I have never seen anything like it...nor do I ever care to again.

did you see the video at the time where all the scum of the earth were in a walmart having a party, taking what they wanted? They came across two lady cops, IN UNIFORM, joining in until the cameras approached them....

left the city...as did the state police as well who were residents there.

Of course, I don't blame them. I wouldn't stay somewhere a huge, powerful hurricane is coming for any job either.

Of course, I'd have had the manhood to hand my badge in before I left to take care of my family too. That's just cause I was raised better and do what's right.

inferior because not everyone acts like an animal just because their isn't a cop around.

It is a fact that New Orleans took the money there were given for work on the levees and spent it on other programs, leaving them with no one to blame but themselves.

As for St. Louis, I wonder how much of the money for levee work is out of the city budget as infrastructure?

It is fitting that you would compare the citizens of New Orleans with rats, even if I didn't expect that of you....

of course, is it any other right to get online in the middle of work hours that your job is paying you for? is this part of your job to make social commentary on here?

You're no better for taking your company's money for doing nothing, in reality. Taking something for free...just like those looters you despise.

And yes, I know I am doing it too. nanny nanny boo boo :p lol ;)

[i]It is a fact that New Orleans took the money there were given for work on the levees and spent it on other programs, leaving them with no one to blame but themselves.[/i]

A) New Orleans was [b]NEVER[/b] given a penny. Levees are the Jurisdiction of the Army Corps of Engineers, and that is a federal agency underneath the United States Department of the Defense...not the City of New Orleans.

B) The Bush Administration, in years preceeding Katrina, had funnelled off monies earmarked for ensuring levees across the country including those in New Orleans. I believe the year previous to Katrina, Bush's Administration moved $6M or $8M out of the funds for the New Orleans District of the Army Corps of Engineers office there that was marked to reinforce those levees.

So, don't blame it on New Orleans. Blame bad national government leadership.

[i]As for St. Louis, I wonder how much of the money for levee work is out of the city budget as infrastructure?[/i]

Zero. Levees (other than those for waterways like the canal in San Antonio, etc) along the river there are under the jurisdiction of the USACE.

[i]It is fitting that you would compare the citizens of New Orleans with rats, even if I didn't expect that of you[/i]

Just like you to read into something what you want it to mean. Nice try. But, you're stretching too far, rubber man. Time to get snapped back.

And, let me give you the quote, since you can't seem to remember it well enough:

[i][b]As well you should know, cities are like a rat cage. The minute things get too crowded or desperate, the adults start eating their own.[/b][/i]

I said "cities". I didn't say "people of New Orleans". Nice try, but you're the one who says you and the people in the midwest flooding are "better" than the people of New Orleans.

It was a comparison of what happens to a crowded environment once desperation and dire circumstance occur. But, I guess I am better than you for having taken so much sociology in college...right?

By the way...What makes you any better? Cause you aren't poor? Cause you have a degree? Cause you were blessed with a good brain and education and parents who taught you right? Because you had the chances that others didn't?

Some people aren't as lucky as you. Some people can't get out of the rathole. Some people are desperate. Some people weren't raised right.

But, you sitting on your pedestal like the cocky cheshire cat does nothing to help your country, improve the situation, or help another human being to improve their chances for a better life.

You are the kind of person who bitches all day about how bad people are and aren't doing anything with what they have (when they really have nothing), then go and say to the ones who are working toward getting better that it's not your duty to help the ones who want to improve and have a way out of their situation.

I really do wonder sometimes if you are this distorted, or if this is just a put on for the forums.

Just please stop trying to deflect your hate for those people who didn't/don't/won't have it as good as you onto me.

BTW, I'm not sending any money to the Red Cross. Last time I did (after Katrina), over $1B ended up disappearing from their coffers.

Last time I ever give to a charity like that. If I give those folks any help, I'll fly up there and do it.

that includes everyone.

Cops are not expected to ride out a dangerous storm any more than the rest of us mortals are.

Them being smart enough to follow the evacuation order is not a short coming on their part.

Actually, most of the New Orleans police were expected to stay on duty through the storm. They had secure EOCs and shelters to operate out of.

Don't believe me? From WWL-TW in New Orleans:

[i][b]Nagin Orders Mandatory Evacuation in Face of Katrina

10:11 AM CDT on Sunday, August 28, 2005
WWLTV.com -New Orleans

Mayor Ray Nagin ordered a mandatory evacuation of the city of New Orleans in the face of Category-5 Katrina which was expected to make a direct strike on the city early Monday.

Nagin said that the predicted tidal surges and heavy rains could mean widespread flooding and power outages that could last for some time.

The order extends to everyone in the city of New Orleans with the following exceptions: Essential military and law enforcement personnel from the city and state, regulated utilities employees, essential members of the media, hospital employees and their patients, medical personnel, Criminal Sheriff's personnel and inmates and hotels and their patrons.

Nagin said the city could and would commandeer any property or vehicle it deemed necessary to provide safe shelter or transport for those in need.

He also opened the Louisiana Superdome as a shelter of last resort that would begin accepting people around Noon. He said the Dome would have few supplies and that people were expected to bring food and other necessary items. RTA buses were going to be sent to pick up those going to shelters at designated pickup points.

Nagin discouraged staying in the Superdome, saying that people would not have access to power and possibly plumbing.

His pickup spots were:

Martin Luther King Elementary
William Franz Elementary
Warren Easton High School.
Israel Augustine School
McMain Magnet School
Sylvanie Williams Elementary School
Rabouin School
Arthur Mondy in Algiers
O. Perry Walker High School
Abramson High School
Sara T. Reed School
New Orleans Mission
[/b][/i]

The City of New Orleans formally fired about 200 initially with direct proof of them having left, but it was believed that many more left and then came back, and were reprimanded or terminated after that initial set of hearings.

At this point, they are between 700 and 800 short of officers out of the original 1700+ before Katrina due to resignations, removals and departures since then.

despite all reason...

...as though I'm deriding all Nawlins officers. Far from it.

I just think it's a shame that the ones that did stay dishonored their brethren in the manner in which they did.

If they are the examples for the community, little wonder why things spiraled (I still think the Superdome should have been demolished...can't imagine what some of the women feel like when they pass by that place) downward in the manner they did.

it's sad when a few cops tarnish things for the others.

It's even worse when someone like jdclyde groups them all together like they're all animals.

There were actually New Orleans cops who arrested other New Orleans cops for looting, rape, and even assault.

You just didn't get that on the evening news, because it's not dramatic enough to get the almighty ratings.

based upon what?

Who would pay for the demolition and who would pay for the new structure, and what possible justification could there be?

...about them going ahead and demolishing it, and building a new one given what they feared was damage to the superstructure supporting it.

It didn't get demolished, because the initial fear was unwarranted; the basic support infrastructure was solid. So, it was cheaper to repair the various damages (just about everything inside was gutted) than to rebuild. Which I understand...no need to throw an unnecessary burden onto an already burdened economy; especially given the financial mismanagement in the city to begin with.

I didn't phrase the previous post as well as I could have...but my point was that it was a shame that there wasn't a need to demolish it, since so many people victimized inside (thefts, rapes, abuse...pretty much the worst parts of post-apocalyptic movies).

On the one hand, the Superdome can stand as a testimony to human engineering (it stood up to a Cat 5 hurricane, did undoubtedly save lives). On the flip side, I wouldn't doubt (can't speak for the victims...have no frame of reference in my experiences) that some of the people that were subjected to the abuse view it as a symbol of all that is wrong with society (politicians told people to go there...breakdowns in civility...etc, etc, etc).

Growing up, mom was a single mother on welfare. We never looted.

Mom now has her masters degree and is one year away from retirement.

Being poor does not make you a scumbag. There are a lot of poor people in the world, and they don't use any excuse for theft.

Better get a bandaid for that bleeding heart. Caring does not mean making excuses. All people like you do is excuse the behavior, which in turn sends the message that what they did was ok because it wasn't their fault of the flood and they NEEDED that TV anyways.

The people of NO that did the violence and looting are scum and inferior to the people along the current flood path that are standing together, busting their asses to help each other out.

Accountability and respect are two character traits clearly something the people in the current crisis are NOT lacking, and are an inspiration instead of national disgraces.

since my grandmother was a single parent of 3 girls toward the end if the great depression, never took a dime of hand-out (worked multiple jobs after my grandfather left her with 3 kids), and my mother never looted no did her sisters, and my grandmother had her master's and PhD in Education...and I got my degree and was a scholarship musician and performed with both collegiate and city musical organizations at notable places including Disneyworld and Busch Gardens, and since i've never looted or stolen either...I must be so much better than you since my ancestors worked out of a bigger poverty hole and got more education than yours?? Yeehawwwwwwwww! I'm better than jdclyde by jdclyde's own standard!! :p

I never said being poor was the only reason. Those people aren't just poor.

Most of them have no opportunity.

Not everyone had a mother who had the chance to work her way out of her situation.
Not everyone had a mother who raised them well.
Not everyone could move out of New Orleans and get away from their poverty there.

That's the one thing you still fail to believe and/or understand: not everyone gets the blessings of opportunity that you, I, your mother, both my parents (who both grew up so dirt poor that they worked before the age of 6 with jobs making money to help their family), etc.

And, people like you expect everyone to be able to have the achievements that you have, even without the luxury of the opportunity and experience you had in your life.

As for accountability and respect...how respectful is it of you to judge those in New Orleans without knowing their situation?

For all you know, those men and women doing that might have been the druggies and drunkards of the street (even some of the cops) that were doing those things?

You'd disparage the good people of New Orleans who have lived and worked hard...over a minority of miscreants that the evening news and newspapers showed to get your ratings and money.

Where's the respect for those people, and your accountability for having judged them along with the ilk they have to endure living around?

I guess next you'll say Chubby Checker was a scumball cause he lived there and didn't stop looters and stuff.

Or is he better than the cop(s) that had to stand there too while 50 people looted a Wal-Mart or else get killed by a mob trying to stop them all, just because he wrote hit songs?

Honestly...I think you're smart, but your drive in life to think that everyone should have what you do and achieve what you have despite their environment, upbringing, and situation is unrealistic.

And, it's even more unrealistic that you think everyone should have the same morals set as you even though you obviously know that social dynamic is different in every family in this country.

But, I think I'm trying to pound a wooden steak into a granite block with a rubber mallet.

It's just never gonna get through.

I'm glad you had a mom who did right by you. A lot of people in New Orleans and many other places didn't.

Just try to remember that.

if the people were taking food/water.

they were taking appliances and jewelry.

their is no excusing that behavior, no matter how "poor" they are. People that did the looting for profit are inferior people.

Martial law should have been put in place, and force everyone to hop on the buses while they had the chance. The mayor should have gotten gotten raked over the coals.

Everyone has the chance to make a better life for themselves. Everyone has the same opportunies. True some have an easier time than others but they are there for everyone. Period. Some people are just too lazy to work for them and are happy sitting around taking gov't hand outs and whining and moaning when they don't get them.
I had to pay for my own schooling to make something more for myself. Like the 2 of you I had a single mom when dad walked out and yes we ate gov't cheese for a while but not for ever. Most of the folks you are talking about that are living in poverty would meet the criteria to get a post secondary education for free but are just to lazy and apathetic to do so.

I'm sorry to say this but you sir are an enabler and it is because of statements like that and your way of thinking that these folks continue to live off gov't handouts. The gov't should be there to help pick you up when you fall not support you for the rest of your life.

by ben "iron" damper Jun 26, 2008

I am from Iowa (moved to TX 12 years or so ago) and experienced the floods of 1993 when I graduated. Unlike Katrina folks we didn't expect a handout or welfare we just took care of our issues and made do.
Most of my family is still in Iowa and have stated this flood was worse than 93. None the less they aren't looking for a free handout from anyone including the government.
I lived many weeks in 1993 without water and power.
Katrina folks should learn a lesson from the midwest floods of 93 and 08.

I was reading a story about the Katrina "victims", and they were complaining that the government was cutting back on their payments that they are STILL getting.

Katrina put a region on welfare?

The only thing that the government ISN'T doing that they should, is holding the insurance companies feet to the fire. If someone had a policy, make the insurance pay up. Don't have a policy? the gravy train is pulling into the station, last stop, everyone off.

by ben "iron" damper Jun 26, 2008

The "Katrina victims" are also complaining that in Dallas they are finally telling them to leave their FREE apartments or stay and start paying.
Gee I mean after all this time they have the gall to complain because they are expected to work and pay rent?? Heck we gave them free living for this long it's the least they can do!

I agree...handouts are DEFINITELY not the answer. I grew up with people that never cycled off of the welfare system (instead, they found new and inventive ways to abuse it...argh). If you ever read 'Who Stole My Cheese', Hem is an example of someone that is on a free ride in life.

The problem with the insurance (in the midwest anyway...saw a news item about it just two days ago) is that the local accessors didn't grade out some of these properties as flood plains, and as such, many of the homeowners weren't required to (and thus, didn't) carry flood insurance.

On the Illinois side, the government (both state and fed according to the report) had bought out most of the land that was impacted by the last major flooding, and turned it all into parks and rec areas. This is what led some accessors to think areas beyond that were safe.

YIKES!!!

So, you can't really blame the insurance companies (well within their rights if the policy is worded to not include flood damage), can't really blame the people (if I tell a user there is no need to defrag a hard drive, I can't blame them when files start getting corrupted), and can't really blame the government (some of this water just rose ridiculously high...the entire lake up at Wisconsin Dells draining...are you kidding me...who could foresee that).

If anything could ever be chalked up to an act of God, this is it!

maybe the people of New Orleans realize he did the best he could for them, being that he was trapped in the same city and at the same deficit that they were.

Of course, others who could have helped and arranged for assets to be brought in...and weren't in the area of affect...were too busy to worry about New Orleans.

Care to counter that point?

Oh btw...can you explain why FEMA wasted $85M on household goods to give to Katrina victims, yet only $2-3M of it got dispersed before they went giving it to other federal departments?

I know a lot of people left New Orleans, but there were still a lot of people there who could have used it.

Guess FEMA was too busy shuffling leadership and passing blame to help victims.

http://www.truthout.org/article/fema-gives-away-85-million-katrina-supplies

[i]their is no excusing that behavior, no matter how "poor" they are.[/i]

if abject poverty was the only cause of their behavior, i'd agree with you.

but, some of those people were probably raised to believe that sort of behavior was okay.

i guess by your standard tho, we should have nothing to do with Iran whatsoever then, since under their way of life (and their law) it's okay for a girl to be married as young as 9 years old. Right? We shouldn't be involved in any way with people who condone child marriages?

[i]People that did the looting for profit are inferior people.[/i]

Inferior? Maybe...maybe not. There were people taking water, food, diapers, etc.

But as I said, you saw just what the news wanted...the sensational that keeps you tuning in so their Nielsen score goes up and so does their revenue. You bow to and believe all the hype and the 20 seconds out of 20 minutes of footage they show you.

On the other hand...are they morally lacking? Definitely.

BTW...it's kinda hard to profit in a city where no one had money and no ATMs were operable to buy the looted goods, don't ya think?

[i]Martial law should have been put in place, and force everyone to hop on the buses while they had the chance. The mayor should have gotten gotten raked over the coals. [/i]

I agree martial law should have been in place. But, how do you do that with most of your law enforcement gone and still over 100k residents in place and of those 100s of them looting? Gonna let your cops get sniped off because you wanna flex your muscle?

And do you know how many buses it would take to move the population of New Orleans and the metro out of there?

Talk about an unreasonable expectation of an elected official.

At least Bush had time to declare it a federal natural disaster area as soon as it happened and already have staged the federal troops prior to landfall outside of the affected area.

But, you'd just rather pick on Democrats rather than be objective.

BTW, go read this article. 3 years to give the stuff away, and they couldn't find people in New Orleans who survived Katrina who could use it. Ha! Right.

http://www.truthout.org/article/fema-gives-away-85-million-katrina-supplies

I'm just someone who understands that not everyone has the same opportunity...and to expect them to achieve the same result is ludicrous.

And btw, I have [b]*NEVER*[/b] said that they should continue to live on the handouts...ever.

Of course, again...go read this article:

Tell me how people were given a hand up to restart when FEMA didn't even try to hand out the goods they purchased for Katrina victims.

If I'm an enabler for wanting to help and educate people rather than sit and judge them, then so be it.

BTW, I had to have a scholarship and work to get through college.

And, not everyone can get into college. You have ACT and/or SAT and/or entrance exam requirements for entrance to almost all universities and colleges and junior/community colleges in this country.

Not everyone gets a good enough public education to get into college.

Hell, my one sister is pretty much inept at Math because she had the one crappy teacher in junior high for 3 straight years. So, she never learned algebra and other basic mathematics well. And, me and my other sister had very high forms of math in college and did fine.

So is it impossible some people don't get a good public education to get into college.

The answer is yes.

not getting their hand out does not entitle them to act in the manner in which they did. Was stealing food justifiable? In this case absolutely. Was taking pot shots at resuers and resue helicopters justifiable? That was a retorical question, I don't think I really need to answer that. Like JD said inferior people. People behaving like animals because they can.

"Everyone has the same opportunities"

In a legal sense, this is absolutely true. I'm an example. Grew up on welfare...self-funded my college education...yadda yadda.

HOWEVER, in practicality, this is sadly not the case.

There are neighborhoods in Chicago (I'm sure elsewhere, too) where kids live out Billary's 'Duck and Cover' scenario on the way to school daily. Say what you will, but the kids simply aren't getting the same opportunity at an education (worry about getting killed on the way to school...hope you don't get killed while at school...worry you'll get killed on the way home...that's the ingredients for a quality education), which is the key for a shot at a decent life. Simply put, their life, liberty and pursuit of happiness are all being compromised by elements beyond their control.

The problem is that we're a very reactionary society; and thus, feel bad for people at the wrong time. I have no desire to help these kids when they hit adulthood, and have no jobs (welfare). I want to help them NOW (strong leadership is required, since the only way to combat the problem is to get hard core).

I have thoughts on how to combat the problems effectively, but it would be quite unpopular...and honestly, I'm not even sure I'd authorize it myself without thorough examination.

Label street gangs domestic terrorist organizations, and have at them with the full force authorized by Homeland security.

you're assuming 2 things:

1) they acted that way because they "could"...that maybe their lifestyle and all they were raised to understand and know. maybe it wasn't as conscious as it was learned.

2) that Katrina was the reason they did it. maybe those caught on film did that daily, but just to a more petty thievery level. and, that you felt no plight or horror for it until Katrina.

Trust me, I abhor those thugs and sickos and scumballs who did it too.

But, I'm not going to assume I know what drives them to do it.

Some might know better, and just not care.
Some might not know any other way of life.
Some might have been desperate and not thinking realistically to do anything to get something to trade for food for their baby.

There's more than one way to start a car. Just because the key is the only way you know how to do it, doesn't mean someone else didn't only learn to do it by hotwiring them.

Think outside the box and the media hype for a minute. It's enlightening.

because THEY stepped up and did more for these people than they were willing to do for themselves.

I know Texas took a huge number, and we hear the same whining here about the gravy train coming to an end.

You can only feel so sorry for people not willing to do for themselves.

insurance paid off all those houses in the 9th(?) ward that flooded bad...demolished the houses...let the city of New Orleans come in with 6-8 feet of fill dirt...raise the sewer and water lines...then fund that by charging a standard re-connect fee to each new house like you do any other to a utility.

That way, they wouldn't need 9 foot levees...just good drainage grates. :)

That, or require that building start getting built up on stilts.

Who knows, could have turned Nawlins into a seedier Venice!!

(btw, I say that with affection, as I absolutely love the city of New Orleans...would really like to see the city get back on its feet and improve as the result of this debacle...would be a great testament of the will and strength of Americans, imho)

why is the crime so rampant? because the citizens make excuses for the thugs in their neighborhoods and don't report them to the cops.

As for jck, that was just crazy. of course they ALL knew what they were doing was wrong, or they would not have waited until then to try it, when they knew they could get away with it.

it had to be determined if I lived in a flood plane or not.

Anyplace that is below sea level should HAVE to be considered a flood plane...

The other scam was trying to write it off as "wind damage".

The fact that Carmelo Anthony is still in the NBA and making millions sickens me to no end.

The 'Stop Snitching' thing...argh. Representing the USA at the Olympics...double argh!!

There was a story this week about an 8 year old kid that was shot (begging doctors not to let him die...pretty sad stuff). The police suspect that his dad or the person his dad was visiting in a hotbed of gang/drug activity at midnight with his kids in the back of a van (I feel these details are relevant) was the intended target.

As of now, can the cops really do anything about it...not really.

If gangs were labeled as domestic terrorists, would that be the case? Not so much (the 'friend' was reported to have gang ties..so that would ding him...associating with him would ding the dad...meaning the kids would be taken away and placed with either family or in foster care...maybe not best solution...but far better than getting shot in the gut at age 8, I'd imagine).

by jellimonsta Jun 26, 2008

The town of Lake Delton (now 'Pit' Delton) opted out of flood insurance so no one there had it.
http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=761341

Talk about being up the creek! :0

to say that they didn't know better because that was the way they were brought up is prepostorous. I challenge you to find someone who doesn't know that assaulting and/or killing someone is wrong. That throwing a rock through a window and taking what is inside is ok.

I have to go back to my original statement of you being an enbler. You are making excuses for this deplorable behavior. I have gone beyond the media hype. The media would have you believe that it was the government's fault. If only the aid had come sooner or if it would have been more none of this would have happened. Animals will always behave like animals.

by av . Jun 26, 2008

It would be totally devastating. I'm so sorry for anyone that has been a victim of the floods.

I have tremendous respect for the way that the people of the Midwest handled the disaster. I think they are role models for the rest of us, and especially for some of the victims of Katrina.

New Orleans has a much stronger criminal element than the Midwest, but I don't think thats true of all N'Orleanders. I think it speaks volumes that some of the Katrina victims are still taking government handouts. Why? Because greed kicked in.

I will never forget the pictures of someone stealing a TV from a store in a flood in New Orleans. I don't care how poor you are, but when is that behavior ever ok?