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  • #2277253

    How can this happen????


    by maecuff ·

    CENTRAL POINT, Ore. — Three Medford school teachers were threatened with arrest and thrown out of the President Bush rally at the Jackson County Fairgrounds Thursday night, after they showed up wearing T-shirts with the slogan “Protect our civil liberties.”
    Three Medford school teachers who were thrown out of a Bush rally because of their t-shirts.
    All three women said they were carrying valid tickets for the event that they had received from Republican Party headquarters in Medford, which had been distributing event tickets to Bush supporters.
    Teacher Janet Voorhies said she simply wanted to bring a message to President Bush, but did not intend to protest.
    “I wanted to see if I would be able to make a statement that I feel is important, but not offensive, in a rally for my president,” said Voorhies, 48.
    The women said they were angered by reports of peaceful protesters being thrown out of previous Bush-Cheney events. They said they chose the phrase, “Protect Our Civil Liberties,” because it was unconfrontational.
    “We chose this phrase specifically because we didn’t think it would be offensive or degrading or obscene,” said Tania Tong, 34, a special education teacher.
    The women got past the first and second checkpoints and were allowed into the Jackson County fairgrounds, but were asked to leave and then escorted out of the event by campaign officials who allegedly told them their T-shirts were “obscene.”
    Democrats were quick to pounce on the incident and claimed the GOP has routinely sought to disclude anyone from public appearances by President Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney who might question the administration. There was no immediate comment from Republican officials.
    “Thursday’s actions in Oregon set a new standard even for Bush/Cheney – removing and threatening with arrest citizens who in no way disrupt an event and wear clothing that expresses non-disruptive party-neutral viewpoints such as “Protect Our Civil Liberties,” said Adam Green, a spokesman for the Oregon Democratic Party.
    When Cheney visited Eugene last month, the Register-Guard newspaper reported that Perry Patterson, 54, was cited for criminal trespassing for blurting out the word “No” after Cheney claimed that the Bush administration had made the world safer.
    In a separate and unrelated case Thursday, two protesters were arrested in nearby Jacksonville, outside the historic inn where President Bush was spending the night.
    A few hundred people were demonstrating peacefully there, but police moved to disperse the crowd after a few protesters allegedly put their hands on police officers. City officials said police fired projectiles known as “pepper balls” — similar to paint balls, but filled with cayenne pepper to break up the demonstrators.


    I understand that there are fundamental differences between Bush supporters and Kerry supporters, but I would be amazed if anyone could find the validity in this type of behavior. We’re supposed to sit down and shut up? We can’t even say NO if we disagree. This is frightening.

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    • #3307008

      With all due respect.

      by jamesrl ·

      In reply to How can this happen????

      And I do respect what those protesters were trying to say…but.

      There is a difference between a private event and a public one. One doesn’t have a right to free speech everywhere. If you think MacDonalds is a bad company, and say so on their property, they can ask you to leave. If you say the same thing from the park next door, you have every right to say what you will.

      The same goes for political rallies – given that there were tickets given out and restricted access it could not be deemed a “public” event.

      I do think the behaviour on behalf of the Bush team is excessive and somewhat ironic. You don’t have to sit down and shut up -you just have to not disrupt someone else’s private function.


      • #3307004

        Can you spell “ironic”?

        by dc_guy ·

        In reply to With all due respect.

        The protesters made more of an impression by being thrown out and covered by the news media than they would ever possibly have done if they had been allowed to merely take their seats. They could have spent the entire night trying to get in front of a camera lens and they would probably have succeeded, but that footage would never have been included in the final edit of the rally.

        Add to the list of words that certain politicians can’t spell: “Irony.”

        • #3309657

          You missed the point

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Can you spell “ironic”?

          Impression on who?
          The Anti-Bush and the Pro-Kerry groups are all.
          (yes, those are two separate groups)
          But that wasn’t the stated purpose of going to the rally, now was it?

          A political rally is where you go to listen to what the speaker has to say, so you learn their points. This isn’t the place to make “your points”.

          The same think happens on both sides, so it really shouldn’t be a suprise or a reason to fake outrage.

          Just like the guy months back had NO RIGHT to start chanting “four more years” when Kerrys wife was talking to a group of supporters.

          There are times and places to get your message out, whichever side you are on.

          If people would be more respectfull of both Pres. Bush and John Kerry then maybe they would have a chance to tell us what their message.

          Just like on this board, too often ends up in personal attacks instead of a discussion of ideas. And yes, other people have a RIGHT to be wrong about something. You can decide for yourself if I am right or wrong.

        • #3309501


          by bubbaonthenet ·

          In reply to You missed the point

          I agree. I feel jdclyde made very valid points often overlooked.

          A rally is where you go to support your leader and hear his or her message. It is a theatrical event designed for broadcast audiences.

          A forum is where you collaborate with your leadership and present your ideas constructively.

      • #3308506

        There it is…

        by gaijinit ·

        In reply to With all due respect.

        Right to the point, James.

        I abhor Bush (both his personal agenda and his politicial performance), the Republican party and their ‘Gestapo tactics’, but what you said is absolutely true.

        Civil liberty means protecting the rights of everybody, not just those we happen to agree with.

        Excessive? Yes. Wrong? In my view – yes. Illegal? Not at all.

        • #3308379


          by maecuff ·

          In reply to There it is…

          I agree, there isn’t anything ILLEGAL about it. That does not make this any less disturbing.

        • #3310616

          It is disturbing because its an overt display of intolerance.

          by sleepin’dawg ·

          In reply to Yes..

          What can be done about it is the question on my mind.

    • #3307001

      that’s not good.

      by itgirli ·

      In reply to How can this happen????

      But I would like to point out that I doubt it was Bush personally who made an issue of it. I believe his campaign officals are probably a little paranoid. It sounds like someone walking into an airport with a shirt saying “I’m da bomb”. Something that could be easily taken out of it’s intended context. I don’t agree with the officals manner at all. But you also have Kerry supporters firing bullets into republican headquarters. And I didn’t hear all too much news about that. I think they were just being a little too careful.

      • #3306999

        Apples and Oranges..

        by maecuff ·

        In reply to that’s not good.

        Whoever fired bullets into the republican headquarters committed a crime. Saying the word ‘no’ or wearing a t-shirt that says ‘protect our civil liberties’ is not a crime. Or at least I didn’t think it was.

        • #3307405

          Vociferous protesting !

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Apples and Oranges..

          But then they would have the t-shirts gaussian blurred out like they do with corporate logo’s on people’s t-shirts or the faces on Cops.

          That would have looked REALLY good for them, “Hey, why did they blur out the t-shirts?”

          It would be almost as bad as the press they got by refusing them access but not as bad as rejecting them to begin with.

          They weren’t protesting ‘vociferously’, they were wearing t-shirts.

          If that was Vancouver, the women would have been topless with it written across themselevs. They STILL would have let them in, just so people would actually watch the speech. 😀

      • #3307406

        It was posted here though

        by oz_media ·

        In reply to that’s not good.

        Someone, I forget who actuallly posted about the Democrats firing into Republican windows.

        I didn’t know it had been ‘proven’ to be a democrat though, just assumed. What about the thousands of pissed off Republicans that hate what Bush has done with their once trusted political position?

      • #3307389

        Kerry supporters with guns, or Bush haters with guns?

        by delbertpgh ·

        In reply to that’s not good.

        Was it shown to be a part of somebody’s pro-Kerry strategy? Either way, it was a crackpot with a gun. When Lee Harvey Oswald shot Kennedy, would it have been fair to assume he was a typical Republican?

      • #3310207

        GOP not just being “too careful”

        by patriot actor ·

        In reply to that’s not good.

        This is not an isolated incident — it’s been happening all over the country. Bush cannot (or will not) tolerate dissent — or even questioning.

        Regarding the Kerry supporters shooting at a GOP office: if it’s true, the offenders should be prosecuted — but it sounds a little wacky. How did the “fact” that the shooters were Kerry supporters become known? Did they turn themselves in? It sounds more like another GOP dirty trick than a genuine act by the supporters of any candidate.

        Don’t believe everything you hear or read — and if all the news you’re getting supports your beliefs & biases, you would do better to broaden your sources.

    • #3307636

      Not new in this campaign

      by thechas ·

      In reply to How can this happen????

      For over a year now, the Bush campaign has been severely limiting who can show up at their events, and what they can wear and carry into the area.

      Basically, they want to give the impression that only radical liberals are not in full agreement with every policy and action of the Bush administration.

      Our local police department has admitted to spying on any organized group that even attempts to protest policies of the Bush administration. To the point of sending under-cover officers to meetings.

      Personally, I am getting sicker and sicker of the limitations on personal freedoms pushed upon us by GWB and Republican sympathizers.

      I live in a strongly Republican area. One would think it a crime to have a bumper sticker or yard sign that supports a Democratic candidate.
      Drivers cut off cars that have Kerry bumper stickers.
      Kerry yard signs are stolen or defaced.
      A few yards have even been torn up by anti-free-speech Luddites.

      Until we get a new administration in Washington that is willing to be open and honest with the American people, we can expect continued limitations on our rights.


      • #3307622

        Were your police advised to check on people that talked to much about…

        by admin ·

        In reply to Not new in this campaign

        Were your police advised to check on people that talked to much about or displayed too much material about our Constution?

        Ours were 🙁

        Apparantly there is a new profiling happening in some areas….

    • #3307407

      There’s an old point resurfaced

      by oz_media ·

      In reply to How can this happen????

      One of the things that got me tagged as anti-American was when I said people were following Bush like sheep because they weren’t asking him to explain himself, they weren’t questioning his actions and just followed the light.

      I always thought one of the biggest prides of America was it’s democracy, which most of us take for granted and I am starting to feel is not so common at all.

      In order to have a democracy, you must have two opposing opinions, it just isn’t possible to have a democracy unless you are ALLOWED and ENCOURAGED to share your alternate views, ESPECIALLY in a public forum.

      What that indicates is a controlled PR session where any ‘unsavoury’ opinions must be kept off camera and away from the media’s eyes who are there to show Bush as a great guy.

      His inability to accept a difference of opinion makes him two things in my mind, scared to face the truth and REPUBLICAN.

      It is just yet another example of poor leadership from a poor leader.

      HE could have actually made a press monemt out of it in his own favour. IF he was able to actually think without his memorized and redundant speeches, he would have been able to address them in front of camers and resolve/explain his views on thier issues for the whole country/world to see. That would have been a REAL example of leadership and concern for his countrymen/women.

      Instead he buries his head in the sand and has them rejected. Have I said how typically Republican this sounds? 🙂

    • #3308310

      Good! What’s good for the goose is good for the gander

      by ippirate ·

      In reply to How can this happen????

      That’s funny. I seem to remember a group of individuals not saying a word against, and some even outright supporting mob and terroristic behaviour/tactics on the part of democratic supporters a couple of weeks ago. Now, a few democrats get kicked out of a republican rally and your going to complain?

      Couple of key points.

      1. I am quite sure that they were completely unbiased and unemotional in any of there intentions, as portrayed here
      -The women said they were angered (thats a keyword if you missed it) by reports of peaceful protesters being thrown out of previous Bush-Cheney events. They said they chose the phrase, “Protect Our Civil Liberties,” because it was unconfrontational. (Oh yeah, you mean the way that Kerry has made it such a mundane statement with all his rhetoric about Bush tramping civil liberties?)

      2. They were at a Bush rally. NO they don’t have to sit down and shut up but if they want to disagree then common sense would say not to do it in the middle of the field and if they do that they can pretty well expect to be ejected. They got ejected from a pro-Bush function for having a pro-Kerry agenda? Now there is a surprise.

      3. The “pepper balls” incident? Yeah, guess we should just gloss over the part about a few of the protestors making physical contact with police officers. Nevermind the fact that the president was inside the building they were protesting at and a mob and/or riot/violent protest isn’t exactly the kind of thing you want occuring just a short way from the president.

      4. Last but not least, did you by any chance ever feel compelled to express duress over any of the myriad of similar and worse scenarios that occured whilst the beloved Clinton was in power? You know, like the gentleman whose ribs were broken for picketing in front of the Whitehouse or the numerous occassions when protestors were beaten, battered and bruised for picketing the WTO?

      The women were not harmed, they were removed from the rally. Freedom of speech does not guarantee one the right to say whatever they want, whenever they want to whomever they want. A few years ago I would have said that they are teachers and should know better but alas, that was a few years ago. The second, the protestors made physical contact with police officers. Yeah, that never leads to anything. In both cases the idiots got exactly what they deserved. Someone wants to do something stupid, well, they need to be prepared to pay the consequence.

      • #3308254

        You know when

        by delbertpgh ·

        In reply to Good! What’s good for the goose is good for the gander

        You know, if you’re seeing a photograph of somebody with a Bush sign standing next to somebody with a Kerry sign, that it was taken at a Democratic gathering. At Republican meetings, not a squeak or a sign of disagreement is allowed.

        In Pittsburgh, when the President paid us a visit, the police set up “free speech zones” a half mile away from the motorcade route. Anybody showing a sign or a shirt denouncing the President was escorted away to the fenced in area where he was guaranteed his right to speak freely. One man, Bill Neel, was arrested for insisting on speaking freely (though silently) in a place where the President and TV cameras could see him.

        I kind of thought the whole country was a free speech zone. As far as the sanctity of an opponent’s rally goes, if you’re not being disruptive, you should be allowed to stand there with your t-shirt and your sign. These are the sorts of rights Republicans hold to be their own. But, they seem to want to make a different country out of this place.

        You know, if you ask me, the business of shooting up Republican campaign offices does not sound to me like a Democrat deed. It sounds exactly like a Republican publicity stunt. Nobody hurt, nobody found, investigations going nowhere.

        • #3308221

          Just another joke

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to You know when

          just another joke of an action from an unprepared political party.

          What GOOD leader would not be willing to talk to and address people’s concerns ESPECIALLY during a presidential race.

          The most upstandig and honest thing GWB could have done is addressed these pople directly ON television for all to see and ear his answers to thier claims. Instead he hides them in the closet and refuses to address thier issues as a leader would welcome.

          Just another joke to show how incompetent this party is when veered fom thier predetermined agenda.

        • #3308194

          You mean just like Kerry does?

          by ippirate ·

          In reply to Just another joke

          In other words Oz you think he should take questions directly from concerned citizens about his policies just like Sen. Kerry does.

          Oh, wait, Kerry doesn’t do that.

          Sorry, I guess that your saying that what is to be expected of a candidate is different from one to the next then huh?

        • #3308154

          actually Bush hides and runs from such confrontation.

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to You mean just like Kerry does?

          actually Bush runs and hides when he is confronted with an issue he has not got a scripted reply for.

          His speechwriter is often asked to write speeches about issues where he as NO idea what GWB actually feels about. He was told on a couple of occasions, one beig reporting the knowledge of sadam’s WMD program, and is told to just write what he THOUGHT Bush would say based on his values ad beliefs. then the puppet stads at the podium and tries to read the speech with sincrity, what a farce this whole administration has become.

          When Bush was questioned by the media regarding not knowing about the goings on BEHIND his back in the White House, he smiled, waved and quickly slipped out of the room without comment. He avoids situations where he needs to think on his feet, he is too scared to face the facts and questions, he then has someone else prepare a speech without even conulting him on his feelings and stands up and addresses the country with the mouthful he is fed, barely getting his tongue around the words.

          He’s a fake, a phony, a drone, a puppet, a cardboard cutout whatever you want to call him, he ISN’T a leader in ANY sense of the word though, unless you consider leading American citizens to an unjustified death being a leader.

          soldiers are coming back and spewing hoards of hatred toward what they once had faith in, die hard republicans of 20 -30 years are speaking out about how disgusted they have become with this party. EVEN HIS OWN KIND AREN’T BUYING INTO THE BS!

          Kerry, sure he is a lawyer, what would you expect? He hasn’t been given a chance to prove himself just to play GWB’s game, GWB did and he proved he was a lying little deceptive cretin unfit to manage MacDonalds, where he should end up in one of his newly created jobs.

          “Hi can I take your order…would you like fries with that? Pull up to the next window please”

          “Hi George! Can I have ‘Heinz’ ketchup with my fries please?”


        • #3308131

          You still evade the point. Kerry is guilty of the exact same tactics and

          by ippirate ·

          In reply to actually Bush hides and runs from such confrontation.

          yet he is made out as a saint. I don’t know about where you come from but here that is called a double standard. Remember this entire diatribe began over the statement of shock and all the pithy little comments made against the republicans.

          I don’t think I asked for more anti-Bush rhetoric. I believe I asked why it’s bad for one but okay for the other. Or is this another one of those questions that the pro-Kerry camp is going to dance around like they did with the, are you going to raise taxes question?

        • #3308113

          First off you need to understand something

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to You still evade the point. Kerry is guilty of the exact same tactics and

          I am NOT pro-Kery at all. In fact he is a lawyer, as a person who has spent a lot of time with lawyers and courts, I cannot ad will not trust them. Bush is not a lawyer though, just a bad deceiver, if he was GOOD at his BS, I would give him some credit, what I see is a BAD actor that people want to award an Oscar to. He is the worst case of a crappy political liar I’ve seen, not even a somewhat believable and clever guy, just a fool and it is clear enough, for MOST, to see anyway. I somewhat pity or feel sorry for those that have all thier faith in him he is so bad at his game, you guys would be the first I would expect to see through all his bullsh*t. Instead, what is supposed to be one of the more politically in tune and aware nations in the world is smiling and following like a bunch of lams off to the slaughter. Puely because they believe in a political party’s history not the current actions of the party, and that goes for Democrats too.

          No matter WHAT you throw at Kery, no matter WHAT you dig up about his character as a young man, no matter WHAT Bush accuses him of, he could NEVER be even as close to as pitiful as the moron you all call the President.

          Even his OWN people have turned on him and accused him of deception, even moreso against the people that work FOR him that he entrusts rather than he himself, but he is just being laughed at and used by the people of his administration as they all seek thier own objectives and he smiles and winks and giggles along with them, just as his supporters follow him.

          It’s just sad and pathetic really once you remove yourself from any USs political affililation.

          I don’t care if you vote for democrats, I don’t care if you vote for republicans, I just call em as I see em, just like MOST of the world around you that doesn’t hold political bias in thier heads the way you all do.

          I have a STRONG bias against Bush, but not before watching his insincere lies as he tries to sound believable and credible. I didn’t know he was even a republican at one time, therefore any bias is purely on a basis of what I have seen from him, not a political affiliation that stops me from seeing what is going on.

          As many many have said from ALL corners of the globe, Americans see how others treat them, they never look inward and realize WHY people feel the things they do, and therefore have no ability to judge thier politicians in a democratic fashion.

        • #3308197

          Oh, I guess I was mistaken about what happened at the DNC then?

          by ippirate ·

          In reply to You know when

          That’s great Del. I suppose I must have imagined the jack boot treatment that many people got at the DNC? That’s okay, I know that a democrat or a liberal can do no wrong.

          As to the last of your comment, I like the way that you completely disregard the AFL/CIO’s activities, you know, overflowing campaign buildings, breaking things, etc. Again, had to be my imagination, or maybe it was staged. Or better yet, maybe there are few folks posting that need to go back on their meds.

          It BS. Something happens that condemns the democrats and it was staged by the republicans. Something happens that cast bad light on the republicans and it was staged by the republicans for some trumped up reverse publicity. That’s great. Maybe you could blow a purple elephant out your behind and really impress me next.

          Your right, it is a shame that it has come to this. It wasn’t an issue until it started happening to the side you supported. Until then, what was it, give ’em the guns John. Show those righties what it’s all about?

          You know, at this point I have lost the will to fight or debate about it any further. I read and all I really get is half-witted, side stepping answers to questions that never really want to address the issue. I listen to debates where Kerry supposedly won because he “came of better”, a seasoned debater. No one seems to be listening to the substance. The only thing that matters is the image.

          Like I’ve said before. I really do hope that Kerry gets into office. I’m going to laugh my jolly behind off as he drags this nation right straight to hell. Bush truly sucks but compared to that wishy washy, backstabbing, two faced piece of garbage, he should be sainted. I have never seen a man so devoid of character or integrity. Everything that comes out of his mouth is a lie, if for no other reason than it contradicts a previous statement or action.

          Please, save the litany. I have heard every conceivable argument from the left. I have heard Kerry speak more times than I care to recall. I’ll be glad when it’s over.

          I really do hope that he gets elected. The American people deserve him.

        • #3308105

          I know that a democrat or a liberal can do no wrong

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Oh, I guess I was mistaken about what happened at the DNC then?

          Thanks for reinforcing my point!

          The VERY FIRST thing any person in the USA does before responding to ANY political question, is look for a way to dismiss it due to it’s affiliation.

          Not to actually investigate the allegations and roe otherwise but the VERY first thing is to discout it as Liberal, Republican, Democratic etc.

          That is oe of the first things I noticed here and something I see regularly. If it aint white it aint right, attitude.

          Republicans and Democrats are exactly the same, just a bunch of people who want the others to lose.

          What I find funny but anoyig at th same time, you cannot even meet a person on the street without knowing his/her political affiliation it seems. It’s like a bad AA meeting, “Hi, I am a Republican,…ooh, and my name is Oz.”

          Somehow political affiliation is important to people where you are, WHY?

          Why does this make someone or someone’s views instantly credible or incredible?

          Why do democrats hate republicans and vice versa instead of hating the people they represent?

          Why is it only in America that I hae seen ANY form of political segregation? The FREE Democracy?

          as I have said before, I couldn’t tell you the political afiliation of ANY of my friends or even IMMEDIATE FAMILY! I am sure my mother couldn’t say whether she supported NDP, Conservatives of Liberals we support PEOPLE based on ACTIONS not parties based on history.

          I have seen people here say they wil defed Bush because they voted for him, whether he is right or wrong it is thier DUTY! DUTY? What duty? You did that when you voted. After the election it’s out of your hands and, as a democracy, well within everyone’s right to speak out against it if neccessary.

          I have seen people say that a Republican is ALWAYs a republican and would never be a democrat, if they did then they were never a Republican.

          What kind of brainwashing crap do you REALLY get fed in your country?

          If you suport a party today you MUST ALWAYS suport that party no mater who leads it, who is IN it and what thier actions and objectivs are?

          REALLY, your whole political system is a layghing stock, a complete joke. unfortunately, during the last farce you called an election, a madman was given the keys, nearly started WWIII and killed thousands of US soldiers and inocent civilians in a country that COULDN’T POSSIBLY hae ties with th egroup that attacked you.

          It is common knowledge that DICTATORS DO NOT MAKE FRIENDS WITH TERRORISTS. They have thier own country to defend, what possible need to work with terrorists would they have other than to repress thier own by the use of thier own military that suports thier dictatorship? To think that saddam had ties to al-Qaeda is just plain illogical nonsense, this whole war was planed befroe 9/11 as people IN the White House are starting to some out and admit now. People IN th CIa received calls from Runsfeld on 9/11 asking them to FID a way to pin it on Saddam as HE was thier target LONG before 9/11. 9/11 was just a catalyst to fuel anothr agenda. If it WAS terrorism, who would turn thier back on al-Qaeda and let them erbuild all over the world while saying that Bin Laden is not an issue now?

          Get real. He’s a fool and you were fooled by him.

        • #3310354

          Out of the closet

          by ippirate ·

          In reply to I know that a democrat or a liberal can do no wrong

          Here it is for ya. In all respects I am not a Republican. If it is drawn down I lean heavily into the Constitutional party. However, the showing of that horse is very limited so I will therefor vote with regards to the individual that most closely resembles my affiliation, conservative. Kerry does not in anyway meet this. Bush, barely at best does. Who do I vote for then? Bush the idiot or Kerry the man that represents in no way my ideals?

          This has been my point from day one. I apologise for rolling it so lopsided with my conservative preferences. My biggest issue is the central values I hold and the unending calls of “but Bush did this” without a word about what Kerry has done or not done.

          I get comments like sheep cast at me from morons like G.Brown and lastword, none of them ever knowing what I believe or think. You, for all the flamewars we have committed to between us, have got more knowledge of my positions from an “opposition” perspective than any of these tin can twits that have a lot of words but so very little to say or offer besides an ignorant rant or shallow opinion based off of what their “peer” group is telling them.

          Yes, Bush is a moron and I understand that there are those that view him as a threat, etc. I am unable to arrive at the conclusion that he is a larger threat than Kerry. I just callz um as I seez um to.


        • #3310285


          by delbertpgh ·

          In reply to Oh, I guess I was mistaken about what happened at the DNC then?

          I wasn’t aware of people being suppressed by jackboot tactics at the Democratic National Convention, but if you say so, fine.

          I remember a dozen years ago, when the older Bush declined to debate, and a Democrat put on a chicken suit and showed up at all the Bush rallies, calling himself “Chicken George.” GHWB eventually consented to participate in debates. I am sure nobody could work that gag at the President’s rallies today. Any sign of discontent is not allowed, even if it is outdoors on public property.

          This all seems a piece of the developments of the last fifteen years, starting with the conservative radio personalities and working on through Newt Gingrich and Karl Rove, who all decided it was easier and more useful to get people angry, than to actually get them to pay attention to details or even believe in anything. That’s your Republican party of today, and it works. So, I’m sure you’ll see the Democrats catching up in the same style, once they work out a card of irrelevant talking points to keep people excited.

        • #3310268

          Sounds like some kind of phony futuristic rig

          by thelastword ·

          In reply to Jackboots?

          Like they have the whole look and feel of it controlled, the media is slanted, the polls are rigged by money(buying out people). I mean really, it comes down to whoever has the most money to pull the most stunts wins. 90 percent of the population fall for all the antics anyway so what are you really ‘voting’ for. Basically, the country is so corrupt they will vote Bush back in due to utter inability to get clarity on it. The system is failing.

        • #3310216

          Yeah, k

          by ippirate ·

          In reply to Jackboots?

          You know, it amazes me that you can speak with such clarity and then finish with a statement like you do.

          Your right, it’s a vast right wing conspiracy and the Democratic party is the vanguard of truth and justice, only recently developing scare tactics and misinformation, those only in a very limited capacity and not yet fully deployed. I’d like just once for you and those who follow the same line as you would actually admit the truth that your dear Kerry and you dear Democrats are completely out of touch as well and haven’t got anyone else’s interest at heart but their own. Just like I just got finished telling Oz, I voice my opinion more on the case of Kerry than anything because I am a conservative but I can readily admit that Bush and his administration/party are chuck full of idiots as well. The Democrats are innocent? Yeah, I suppose that you could fly that past the numerous people who got the crap beat out of them protesting the WTO in Washington?

          I am voting for Bush on value grounds. Kerry’s don’t match mine and for me the moral issues at hand are not something I can consede to him. Both of the are idiots and puppets but I can honestly say that my comfort level is higher with Bush than with Kerry, war be damned.

          All in all I don’t suppose it matters, there are a growing number of folks like this chucklehead lastword who are coming to age to vote and are going to do it. With the high degree of arrogance and ignorance displayed by it and it’s peers, we’re all screwed anyway.


        • #3310184

          Vision and independant thought:

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Yeah, k

          something I don’t see too often here, NICE! 🙂

        • #3309929

          Who azre you even talking to?

          by thelastword ·

          In reply to Yeah, k

          What are you even responding to. My comment addresses the general state of democratic affairs as degraded down to ineffective corruption. Did I say Democrat somewhere? Given that I haven’t favored any political party in my statement, why is your back up again? Your comment is absurd and doesn’t address anything I said!!!??? You are so leaned over to one side that you can’t see straight. My comment says the whole democratic system in your country is a circus side show riddled with every kind of corruption known to man, further I said it is FAILING because BUSH has been elected and to the shock of the rest of the world, you all are considering VOTING him back in of your own free will which appears that you all can’t think straight.

        • #3309928

          My last comment was direct to pirate not oz

          by thelastword ·

          In reply to Who azre you even talking to?


        • #3309926

          My point exactly

          by thelastword ·

          In reply to Yeah, k

          a failed system of idiots with staunch supporters

        • #3309877

          thanks lastword, but really….

          by ippirate ·

          In reply to Yeah, k

          I wasn’t talking to you. Of course, thanks for proving my point with, what was it, three posts?
          Nite, nite bedbug

        • #3307836

          ok bug

          by thelastword ·

          In reply to thanks lastword, but really….

          thanks for bugging me

        • #3294690

          The Whole Point Is

          by philospher ·

          In reply to Yeah, k

          One of our founding fathers said it best “Sir I may not aggree with what you are saying, but I will defenf your right to say it.” Patrick Henry

          On that saying, The Bush administration has made secret evrything it can to conceal,distract the american public. He’s for the privledged few not the masses who really work for a living. This adminstration has pushed the “working class” to the point of extintion. As for you ippirate you are a conservtative and the defintion of a conserative is: Someone who has no social conscience, nothing but comptempt for the working class. They want and claim to be family-friendly but in reality they won’t raise the minimum wage, they don’t want people to have cost-of-living increases, but complain about the welfare state of the country. You can’t have it both ways People should and must be able to have a decent level of job and personal security.

        • #3294749


          by tired_of_mcses ·

          In reply to Oh, I guess I was mistaken about what happened at the DNC then?

          I remember a day when compuing was what this site was about. STFU!

        • #3294730

          Well that’s easy to explain

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to PoliticalRepublic

          we are also tired of MCSE’s and MCNE’s etc.

          In case you missed it on the doorway page to this particular forum, there is a filter that allows you to select a specific area of interest.

          You can choose to read ONLY server 2003 discussions, Novell topics, Security, Unix YOU NAME IT! There are a LOT of specifically related IT topics available for your choosing.

          There is also a separate FILTER or link for MISCELLANEOUS topics. Now just a while back, TR ditors had said that this is the place open for such OFF-TOPIC discussions, they said it would be a great way to share NON-IT related discussions (in ‘water cooler fashion’) for those of us who just want to escape the IT world for a bit and talk about something else with peers in our field.

          So just to help you out, if you go to the main discussion pages, all you need to do is sleect the topic of YOUR choosing and yuo won’t be forced to read through threads such as these political threads disguised as IT topics with thier cryptic titles. Even moreso, you wouldn’t feel compelled to also offer an opinion in an off-topic discussion that you don’t want to read.

          Here’s the link in case you got here some other way.

          Best of luck, happy computing! 🙂

        • #3309638

          you must have missed in the Washington Times

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to You know when

          A few months ago a man took his little girl to an Edwards rally and silently stood there with pro-Bush signs.

          The signs were ripped out of his and his little girls hands and ripped up by the “supporters”.

          The picture was of the girl with her dad, crying because of this.

          Real nice.

        • #3309565


          by cactus pete ·

          In reply to you must have missed in the Washington Times

          Perhaps it would have been better to throw her in jail for tresspassing.

          But really, the “supporters” who did that should have been at the very least cited for assault.

          But this was not the Secret Service or the local Police or the Campaign forceably removing them, was it?

        • #3293338

          Too bad you didn’t read article

          by jdclyde ·

          In reply to Oh..

          Too bad you didn’t read the article before commenting on it.

          Throw this three year old girl in jail for standing on the side of the road. Nice logic.

    • #3310199

      Am I missing something?

      by go_browns_01 ·

      In reply to How can this happen????

      Is it no longer the President’s job to PROTECT OUR CIVIL LIBERTIES?

      Doesn’t the president nominate the Attorney General? Don’t they both swear on a Christian Bible to protect and defend the constitution?

      Hell, a president should proudly wear a shirt
      that demands our Civil Liberties Be Protected.

      And this one is afraid of the mere words?

      • #3309973

        Right train, wrong track

        by ippirate ·

        In reply to Am I missing something?

        Again, here is a great example.

        Yes, the President is sworn to uphold the CoUS. The issue at hand is the difference between liberties and rights and how they interact.

        You are guaranteed under the CoUS the liberty of free speech. True
        That does not however give you the right to say whatever you please, whenever, wherever and to whomever you please. This is where the issue of public assembly gets caught. Protests, pickets, etc. are more than acceptable by the CoUS, but, only when lawful.

        I’ll say it all again. The single largest problem in America today is not Bush or Kerry or the parties, etc. It is the fundamental lack of understanding or knowledge in a civic capacity. Civics is something that is glossed over in schools today as witnessed in 2000 with the complete lack of understanding of the electoral process in the US and today in the complete vacuum that seems to arise for understanding the difference between liberties and rights and the fundamental differences and affordings of each.

        Did the teachers have the liberty of free speech and to disagree with Bush’s policy/administration? Yes! Did they have the right to walk in and protest at a Bush rally? No! Not by any stretch of the word. Like I said, the real shame of the matter is that these two are teaching kids and they don’t even know what it is that they ran into and they, the vanguards of generational instruction and knowledge are going to pass that ignorance on to their students.

        • #3309946

          They weren’t protesting..

          by maecuff ·

          In reply to Right train, wrong track

          They merely had on t-shirts that said protect our civil liberties. How is that a protest? And how is that sentiment obscene???

        • #3309918

          But it wasn’t a public event

          by jamesrl ·

          In reply to They weren’t protesting..

          It was a private event, for Bush supporters. They handed out tickets. They checked for tickets.

          Now I am not at all saying that I agree with what they did. But I am defending their right to make rules for private events.

          If it was a public event – say open air in a park or on the steps of city hall, then anyone can attend and wear whatever they want. But when someone rents a facility, makes it by invitation only, checks tickets at the door….then they have the right to set the entrance criteria.

          I think making them leave was in very poor taste but thats the organizers right.


        • #3309908


          by oz_media ·

          In reply to But it wasn’t a public event

          Of course it is not an actual breach of rights, just pathetic judgement. Unless of course it was black tie and they showed up in T-Shirts, making the slogans irrelevant to thier removal.

          It just shows poor form all around I think.

        • #3309879


          by ippirate ·

          In reply to They weren’t protesting..

          maecuff, you can play word games all you want. Those two twits went into a Bush rally with the intent of “making a statement”. Just what statement was that to be then? They were upset about other people being kicked out of Bush rallies. Really? I’d have to say that it was in response to that. What kind of response would it be? Were they supporting what had happened before? Nooooooooooo. They were “making a statement”. In other words they were protesting.
          Like I said, you can dance and try to shimmy around it all you want, they weren’t there in support of Bush and they weren’t there in neutrality. Regardless of how “peaceful” they were there protesting. They wanted attention, they got it. Now just why should I feel sorry for a couple of idiots like that? I shouldn’t. Matter of fact, I am po’ed that they are teaching the next generation by there actions. Just another screaming example of wanting to do as they please with no consequences.

          One last comment. No one said it was obscene, the teachers did. I just said it was stupid and that they deserved exactly what they got.

        • #3307817

          So unless you are suporting something you are Protesting against it??

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Really?

          Not sure what to take from that, pirate. It seems that you feel there is no fine line between the two and no middle ground (much like the voting parties, I you don’t support Bush you must be a democrat and a Kerry supporter)or vice versa of course.

          In essence, what I get from your post is that if you are not there to support something, you MUST be there to protest it. If your inaudible statement is not FOR the party it is speaking out against it and protestig it?

          I think you’ve missed a LOT of middle ground here. These people COULD have actually been strong Republican supporters who feel that Bush’s comments have let them down, they now want to see him address an issue and make clear on his aims, just like MANY disappointed Republicans have been doing with no voice. This is not protesting, they were not being “VOCIFEROUS”. 😀

          They were making thier questions and concerns clear in an INAUDIBLE way in hopes that Bush may be prompted to address the issue, I am sure if they were given a chance for a Q&A session with Bush, they would have asked him straight up without actually protesting against him.

        • #3307749

          Come on Oz

          by ippirate ·

          In reply to So unless you are suporting something you are Protesting against it??

          The question is whether they were rightfully escorted out.
          It was a political rally in which they wore a positional message.
          They are quoted as having been angered by the party’s conduct toward peoples quote, unquote, free speech in regards to making adverse or divisive comments at other rallies. It isn’t rocket science. Especially when the question is asked of whether they did the same at Kerry rallies.
          Voicing a concern over a political parties actions at said political parties functions, just how is that not a voice of protest?
          Here’s a few other reasons they did what they did.
          It was a full moon.
          Teachers are naturally idiots in that state.
          They thought it would be a great joke.
          They were acting in concert to some peculiar display of the herd instinct.

          They were angry Oz. It’s in the article. Regardless of how vocal or peaceful they may have acted, they were not there to sell Tupperware or to engage in a lengthy discussion on the deterioration of American society in the 21st century. They were angry and protesting, regardless of how the doc’s want to spin it. If they were not there to make a statement and draw attention to a concern(that is the point of protest) then I would love to hear how they qualify it as supporting the rally.

        • #3307747

          you didn’t read the whole article..

          by maecuff ·

          In reply to Really?

          They WERE asked to leave because their t-shirts were obscene. PROTECT OUR CIVIL LIBERTIES. I see NOTHING stupid, inflamatory or idiotic in that sentiment. And, unlike you, I hope my children are taught by teachers who believe in protecting our civil liberties.

          I do not see how it was a protest. It was a request. And it is a request that I hope whoever is going to lead this country takes in to consideration.

        • #3307745

          I think it’s SHUT UP AND LISTEN

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to you didn’t read the whole article..

          That way no unsavoury questions are asked that GWB may not have a canned pitch for, we ALL know he has no ability to form a thought of his own.

          such displays by the public would remove GWb from his element and he may even start to smoke from the ears.

          Given the look on his face when he pretends to be thinking, I can just imagine the lsack jawed, drooling look he would have if he needed to respond to his citizens with his OWN words.

          Poor old bugger

        • #3308626

          Sorry so late a response….

          by ippirate ·

          In reply to you didn’t read the whole article..

          maecuff, it is a sad state of affairs that the persons responsible for booting the two of them out of the event chose the word obscene to describe their shirt. Honestly, that sounds really absurd that someone would but I will give you that someone did.

          My point was, is and will remain that the two of them were stupid enough to go into the event, self admittedly, angered by previous problems, to “make a statement” about these issues and are now complaining because they got smacked for it.

          Moreover, if you want to take it to that level, unlike you, I hope that my children are taught by teachers with higher degree of intelligence, a more appropriate grasp of civic activism and a better show of character and integrity than these two twits who walked in looking for trouble, found it and now want to cry foul and use a play on words and twisting of the facts to support themselves. As to your comment about teachers protecting your childrens civil liberties, I suppose you would rank that right up there with their ability to teach them how to take no personal responsibility for their actions as well? What the heck is the use of a civil liberty if you can’t flaunt it, stretch it, abuse it and try to make more of it than there is and then, when you get called on that, crying because you can’t have your way?

          As to your not being able to see how it was a protest, I really don’t expect you to I suppose, maybe you could get a teacher to tell you.

        • #3308605

          Walking in ‘looking for trouble’?

          by thelastword ·

          In reply to Sorry so late a response….

          Looking for trouble? I think the whole issue here is that wearing a shirt IS CONSIDERED ‘looking for trouble’. You obviously agree that it is. We obviously think that it isn’t.
          Restating that that is the issue is a waste of post.
          The issue IS WHY Is wearing a shirt considered ‘looking for trouble’ in any venue. I mean remember the old ‘disco sucks’ shirts. Could you get KICKED out of somewhere for wearing one? Also, who can KICK who out of WHERE. Thats not a free for all either. Private club with stated rules is one thing and even that is CONTREVERSIAL. Public event, NO WAY.

        • #3308587

          you know..

          by maecuff ·

          In reply to Sorry so late a response….

          We are NOT going to agree on this. I will say, however, that your tactic of implying that I am stupid (you don’t expect me to understand, maybe I could get a teacher to tell me) is condescending and complete bullshit. I don’t AGREE with what you say, and that’s fine. I don’t believe that you are STUPID because you don’t agree with me. I think that you are arrogant and mean-spirited because of the things you say to people who don’t agree with YOU.

        • #3308399

          So then

          by ippirate ·

          In reply to Sorry so late a response….

          As to your reply maecuff,

          I suppose that your comment that “And, unlike you, I hope my children are taught by teachers who believe in protecting our civil liberties.” was meant in the most civil and loving of manners.
          Furthermore, I find it interesting that since I am not in agreement with you, you now feel it your duty to accuse me of wrong doing. Does this mean that you are now going to run about and accuse everyone? Perhaps you could try having a go at some of you more favorite personalities here about their “mean spirited” responses or would you be to busy cooing both of your egos and parroting about how great thou art?

          The simple thing of it is that no, we do not agree. We also don’t agree on the point that when someone is ignorant enough to stick their head in a noose they shouldn’t be to surprised when it gets yanked down about their neck. These two twits did not go into that even singing kumbaya and “looking to hang with the G”, they went in of their own admission of being angry. If one of your children walked into your home under the same pretense I am quite sure that you would look at them and comment on how cute it is and never give a single thought to any underlying motive. I am quite sure that in your home, unless your kids spell it out for you that there is absolutely response or reason for one.
          Your right, we don’t agree. On that I can agree with you. I can also agree that we most likely never will. I think that the two of them went in there with less than the purest of agendas and now they are using their “civil liberties” to hide behind. I know that this is perfectly acceptable behaviour but it is blatantly irresponsible and yes, s-t-u-p-i-d in others.

          As to you and your comments lastword. Lets see if you can get this. The Bush Administration has been battered on more than one occassion for “infringing on people’s civil liberties” with little to no regard to how much of the bills/acts passed in the past four years have been created, added to or re-invented by the House and Senate. A great many people are running to and fro screaming about the president but never once stopping to look at where all the legislation is coming from. The president can create no new laws. He can introduce bills but he can’t create a law. Your beloved Kerry would be more responsible for the issues at hand. That is what makes you so laughable. You decry the president for creating legislation that restricts your life but you support the very arse who is so very much more responsible for making it law. You should have watched more school house rock. So should have maecuff. The only two folks on your side of the fence who I would hedge a bet as having a clue are the teachers in question. Alas, they go quite a distance toward diminishing that in the ignorant act of walking in, inflamed and trying to make a statement. Honestly, if I had been a person of responsibility there, I would have asked what they meant, what was the spirit of their shirt. If they had replied that they were directed at Mr. Bush and his “legislation” of late, I would have kicked them out and then stripped them of their teaching credentials. If they had said that they were making a statement against the actions of the Senate and House and questioning the legislation from them, I wouuld have most likely passed out from the mere thought that a teacher actually understood US goverment.

          There in lies the hilarity of your and a great many others vote. You are all preparing to run down to the booth and cast your ballots for this puppet of a man Kerry as he plays his flute like a good piper. You use reasons like the Patriot Act, the economy, the war in Iraq, taxes and civil liberties. You never seem to stop and think about this;

          If the Patriot Act is so evil and Kerry is going to protect you, why did he vote it to law to begin with? Why has he supported so much more legislation that “inhibits individual freedom”. The Senate and the House have the overwhelming capability to legislate. In the end the President can introduce and veto. The Senate/House vote to law or vote over veto with 2/3 majority. Kerry is laughing to the bank because you think the President has done took your civil liberties.

          The economy, the budget, taxes. One. It takes 6-8 years for fiscal policy to take effect. That means that Clinton was riding the wave of the Reagan/Bush Sr. years. His policies started taking effect at the tail end of his presidency and Bush is serving during the effect. Don’t take my word for it, ask an economist. Two, the budget has never been balanced and the nearest it ever came was when the Senate locked the doors on the President in the 90’s. Know why they did that? Because he wanted to introduce a budget that would have necessitated higher taxes. Kerry was one of a few who actually voted for the budget as introduced. As for taxes? Kerry has voting in favor of every tax increase introduced in the last 20 years. He directly oppossed the president on his tax cuts and still does. He says he is not going to raise taxes on the middle class but he also says he is going to repeal the tax cut introduced by Bush. Just what do you think that is going to accomplish? Further, this goat promises he is going to fix the tax laws? How? The president doesn’t have that power. If Kerry was serious about this, why didn’t he do it in the Senate where he had the ability? Why does his voting record contradict that statement?

          The war in Iraq. Did Bush make a mistake going in and has it gone way beyond what he thought it was going to? Yep. No one can refute that. Funny thing. The US had to declare war to do that. The Senate is the body responsible for giving authorization to do so. They give authorization from the input of the Senate Intelligence Committee (SIC). The SIC is privy to the exact same intelligence that the President/CIA-DIA/Military are privy to. Kerry is sits the SIC, when he is attends. Kerry, by his own admission has stated that he made his recommendations and decisions from the intelligence available. That would be the exact same intelligence. He made the same decisions and signed of on the same course of action he is now calling wrong. In other words, if he had been president, he would have made the exact same decisions he is now attempting to hold Bush to task for. That’s great logic.

          It’s hilarious. People are flocking to the polls to vote for this man and all the while he is treating them as the ignorant horses behinds that they are. Maybe if these teachers in question actually spent more time becoming familiar with and then educating the America’s youth in the area of US Government and civics there wouldn’t be near as much confusion. Again though, I suppose that if Americans are stupid enough and arrogant enough to buy into his elitist tripe and swallow it so fully, they deserve exactly what they get.

          That having been said I would appreciate it if you just scurry along and bother someone else. I would hate for you to get confused again and think that I have initiated the confrontation with you, infringing on your civil liberties.

        • #3308384

          before I ‘scurry along’..

          by maecuff ·

          In reply to Sorry so late a response….

          “I suppose that your comment that “And, unlike you, I hope my children are taught by teachers who believe in protecting our civil liberties.” was meant in the most civil and loving of manners. ”

          I don’t believe, that anywhere in that comment, do I question your intelligence. In fact, I respect, and have said as much, that we don’t agree. I’m not making the ‘school house rock’ comments, or suggesting that your parental skills are out of touch. If anything I’ve said ‘bothers’ you, it may be that you are a little over-sensitive, and perhaps should not participate in any of these discussions. Just a suggestion.

        • #3310780

          You’ll have to forgive me if I don’t

          by ippirate ·

          In reply to Sorry so late a response….

          get overly excited about your suggesting I shouldn’t participate or if I don’t roll over to your attack and back off. Censorship isn’t really my bag, regardless of how sanctimonious or enthusiastic the inquisitor. I’ll remind you that you are the one that made the initial post and decried the incident so scandalous. I simply pointed out the inherent disproportion of view that was in the article and in your comments, grabbing onto those two idiot?s cause and no apparent thought given to the lack of judgment or education on their part, two teachers for crying out loud.

          I propose that if I had mimicked your horror that there would be no contention at this point. Many a time have I seen you go on your merry little way whilst others are getting chuckled at or being berated viciously, many times, their antagonists enjoying unfettered conversation with you at once, even stroking of their egos. Never once have you displayed any compulsion to point out their attacks and offer a correction but you now feel compelled to make this out that I am singly responsible for all the ill feelings you have toward me as well as attempting to drag up allusions to my conversations with others? Before you go running of at the mouth again maybe it would be of merit for you to actually think about how ignorant that does in fact make you look. You posted an article that reveals the complete ignorance of two teachers of our governmental system and take offense because you are viewed lacking in knowledge with them? Get real.

          Furthermore, perhaps you don’t consider your comment inflammatory, as you apparently view yourself, at this point, as a victim but I really would love to hear how you would construe your comment as anything more than an attack on my parental ideals, desires and abilities? I?m dying to hear how you will twist that one around to make it sound better. I?ll remind you that you started out that ignorant jab with ?Unlike you, I?. I don?t know maecuff, maybe you were directing that comment to your cat? How about this part: And, unlike you, I hope my children are taught by teachers who believe in protecting our civil liberties. I don?t know here either maecuff. I?m pretty inclined to think that your position is that I don?t share that sentiment. Further still, I think that my counter-statement made my position pretty clear, maybe you should go back and read it again.

          I’ll remind you that the last time that we crossed each other, you waded into my stated opinion, po’ed, callimg me arrogant, ignorant and dropping the f bomb because you didn’t agree with what I had to say. I suppose that you would suggest that as a more appropriate manner to address those you don’t agree with?

          Sorry, I do think that you are being outright ignorant in bemoaning the fate of these two twits who apparently have absolutely no clue about their nation and who are charged with passing their knowledge(or in this case, ignorance) on to the next generation. They, in just a few short moments, have displayed to the world their complete lack of understanding of how this nation is managed. Shame on them.

          You support them and their ignorance? Shame on you.

          The real horror in all of this is that there are people, like yourself, that will latch onto this, buy it and support Kerry because of it either with complete willful disregard to the underlying issues or by completely failing to stop and think about them. Either way it is terrifying. And obscene.
          In short, stuff it maecuff. The very fact that you limited your response to how you “feel” about my opinion and position states well your position, on more than one plane. You don’t feel it appropriate to call me stupid but you do feel it appropriate to call me other names. You take my comment that I don’t expect you to understand as calling you stupid. My point is that they went in to make a statement, under aggravation with something they viewed as wrong. That is the point and definition of protest. They don’t acknowledge that. You don’t acknowledge that. In that knowledge then I suppose that yes you are ignorant and I now get the picture that disagreement, as long as I don’t say a word contrary to you is fine. Go censor someone else maecuff.

          I agree, one of us is being overly sensitive, but I just don’t think it is me.

        • #3310747

          The issue is one of rights

          by thelastword ·

          In reply to Sorry so late a response….

          You obviously DON’t believe in rights as you hve said that the security should be able to ‘question’ these two women and should also have the ‘right’ to ‘kick them out’ based on their answer, can you tell me which rights are in question based on that ridiculous statement? Don’t talk about civil rights and freedom of speech at a public event when you are making a statement like that. You have no right to KICK out anyone from anywhere. Then you reference comeone coming in to your HOME as a comparison. That is ludicrous. Kicking someone out of your HOME? Well was the political rally held in George Bushes HOME. Maybe it should have been in his HOME then they could kick out whoever they wanted and it would also highlight the very private and CLOSED nature of the event and give the proper perspective on who was being portrayed as attending it. How private was this event and what rights are attached to that. As far as John Kerry at some point voting in laws attached to this conversation, can you give an example of a LAW that covers this subject and tie that back to him personally? Give me a break!!!! You need to show very clearly WHAT CIVIL Liberty or LAW these two were actually breaking. I don’t think there is such a law and if there is YOU ARE IN TROUBLE down there.

        • #3310736

          The reality is

          by thelastword ·

          In reply to Sorry so late a response….

          You don’t know what you’re talking about.
          There IS NO LAW allowing these people to conduct themselves this way to people with shirts on they don’t like. Is there a law against it? NO, there’s not one of those either. It becomes at that point, an issue of PUBLIC OPPINION. So your argument about LAWS is of no value as thankfully, your oppinions are NOT supported by laws of any kind anywhere. The simple fact is that it is a misconduct that exposes the level to which they have stooped, if you support people being allowed to do that or there being laws that people can question your motives and remove you based on that then I don’t know what side you’re on and neither do you. Maecuff’s original point about this showing to what level they will stoop to put a slant on the vote is correct. Calling them twits is pathetic, one of these women could be a mother to some kid. No respect there, eh?

        • #3310735


          by maecuff ·

          In reply to Sorry so late a response….

          That’s how I saw it originally. However, apparently I am horribly wrong in my opinion. Unbeknownst to me, I am a censor, I ‘run off at the mouth’ ummm..and quite frankly, I really can’t go on about all the other things I’ve done wrong in having this opinion, they are too numerous. I’m thinking about growing a penis, I’m pretty sure that my opinion would be more valid if I had one.

        • #3310731


          by thelastword ·

          In reply to Sorry so late a response….

          I noticed.
          He took every possible twist and turn in an effort to form some kind of oppinion or argument. It was way over the top and out of it actually!!!
          There is no underlying point there except to be RIGHT- at ANY ALL COSTS.

        • #3310725

          Simple enough

          by ippirate ·

          In reply to Sorry so late a response….

          The rally was privately set. We can derive this from the fact that there were tickets sold. That one fact alone gives the purvue the right to open/restrict access as far as they see fit and on what grounds they see fit as long as they do not discriminate in regards to race, sex, religion, marital status, occupation, sexual orientation, or physical/mental grounds. The purvue further has the complete authority to eject anyone that they feel would be divisive (i.e. objectionable such a would be the case in a protest) at anytime during the proceedings, regardless of whether they have purchased a ticket or not. In the event that you find cause with that then you will need to issue statement against almost every sanctioned or private gathering that comes about.

          As far as breaking a civil liberty or law my response is this. While not breaking any laws, as such there were no criminal charges lain, they did in fact far over reach the limits of protection afforded them by their liberties. To say that they broke these liberties would be a misnomer but to say that they are attempting to leverage them to unjust ends would be quite appropriate. Their liberty of speech does in fact give them the apparent right to say what they want, when they want, to whom they want. It does not afford them protection in all cases as is seen here. If this were so then there would be no grounds for verbal assault on any grounds. These two women were protesting, plain and simple. They don’t have to wave signs, they didn’t have to put up a banner. The simple fact that they were upset and desired to wear a shirt that would make a statement gives credence to the accusation of protest.

          As to your comment about “down there” I am led to believe that this signifies your being a Canadian. In so much it would explain a great deal of your ignorant and misplaced comments. Still, I would appreciate it that before you open you mouth to comment that you actually have some knowledge of what you are talking about.
          Finally, I will refer you to the above in regards to your statement about Kerry and your inquiry concerning what legislation. If you had actually taken the time to educate yourself on the process of legislation in the US you would understand this process. Not that you would really care, but you would at least know. As to the actual legislation in question, since it would appear to be a bit to complicated for you to keep track that I was in fact addressing directly, among other bills, The Patriot Act, I will reiterate that….

          The legislation that we are quibbling about and every Kerry supporter from here to Omaha is attempting to pin on Bush is The Patriot Act, along with other legislation that has come out in the last four years. The responsibility to law is not given to the president, it is the Senate and the House, that is why they are called the “Legislative Branch”. The presidents office is known as the “Administrative Branch”. Given those two titles, who do you think it is that generates legislation for the US? That’s right, the “Legislative Branch”. Kerry is a what? That’s right, Senator. That makes him a member of what body? The “Legislative Branch”. Now, if the Legislative branch is responsible for authorizing law in the US then who is responsible for laws that infringe on the American publics civil liberties? That’s right, the Legislative Branch. Is it clicking in yet?

          Again, before you comment, at least know what you are talking about. It’s bad enough that you pin your argument to petty challenges but it is outright laughable when you do it assuming that the person you are aiming at is just as ignorant as yourself.


          Nitey nite bedbug

        • #3310721

          What makes you both so pathetic is

          by ippirate ·

          In reply to Sorry so late a response….

          That you seem to have been fine as long as no one challenged you and then you come out swinging. maecuff maybe you should grow a penis, it would make it much easier to explain your acting like a p***k.
          In the end neither of you is adding one shred of support to your position. You stand up and say it is wrong and then begin to parrot that over and over. Contrary to your Draconian thought process, repetition does not make truth and decrying something does not give it credence.

          As I have said before, you maecuff decided to get snotty at the first. Most folks would tell you that if you can’t handle hearing opposition to your opinion then maybe you should keep it to your sensitive little heart. Further, I find it humoring how you have found yourself a little ally in lastword, maybe the two of you could do a road show?

          Either way your sexist and arrogant comments/attacks are repugnant and if at first I didn’t think you an ignorant twit I do now. Your comments and attitudes have helped form and solidify that opinion.

          lastword, well, I’ve always thought you a brainless dolt. Situation hasn’t changed much.

        • #3310720


          by thelastword ·

          In reply to Sorry so late a response….

          No it doesn’t give them that right.
          Being kicked out of something that you have PUBLICLY bought a ticket for. Meaning the tickets were PUBLICLY sold, is a violation of your rights. Have you ever had it happen to you? Think about it. Your theory is not supported by law buyt by your own weak oppinion. Being ‘kicked out’ of somewhere or being told to wear a different badge, unless that badge violates a LAW such as anti-semitism, is a violation of YOUR personal rights. The experience is not preferable and not a good thing to do to a TEACHER. What message are you sending to YOUR kids. What if it was your kids favorite teacher? For wearing a shirt that states they are for civil liberties? What are you wven talkign abotu? And I am surprised you attacked Maecuff who is considered a stable individual among some who might not be!!!
          I thought you crossed a line there

        • #3310718

          Brainless Dolt?

          by thelastword ·

          In reply to Sorry so late a response….

          That in itself is as ignorant as it is funny

        • #3310708

          I’m sorry..

          by maecuff ·

          In reply to Sorry so late a response….

          I wasn’t speaking to you, Ippirate.. did you have something to say? No?

          Anyway, Lastword..sorry to hear that you’re a dolt. Don’t feel too bad, I’ve learned some new things about myself as well.

        • #3310672

          Now thats really neat

          by ippirate ·

          In reply to Sorry so late a response….

          You say that it isn’t lawful but yet if someone is kicked out of a concert for not acting in a manner acceptable to the purvue then that is okay? What about the kids that have been ejected from their own graduations, tickets in hand for not behaving by the standard of the admin and living a religious belief publicly? Funny, I have never seen the ACLU come running to their rescue, the latter especially as it is a once in a lifetime event. Let me guess, that is somehow different isn’t it. They are expressing their views there as well but it is in violation of the views of someone more important?
          You know, it is amazing, there is so much to support the event administrators kicking them out it is ridiculous but yet you two are sitting here acting like it is the end of the world. It is profoundly apparent that they were protesting the Bush administration and as far as either of you are concerned that makes anything lawful and any opposition to that is unlawful. How biased and hypocritical can you be?
          No point? I doubt that. It would seem the root cause is that neither of you gives to pence about the truth or the reality of it. It’s what is convenient to your agenda, loving anything anti-Bush. That’s fine, maybe you could at least quit hiding and just come out and say that you will attack Bush for any reason possible and if there is no readily definable reason then you will make one up, even if it is total fabrication.

        • #3310650

          If i may

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Sorry so late a response….

          Being someone who has forcibly removed more than a high school’s worth of people form various concerts I can tell you there is a fine line and thse teachers did not cross it, the people who kicked them out did.

          Unless these tachers are being overtly vocal, drawing attention to thier cause AND detracting from the speaker there is no law saying that they can be removed (in Canada), given that this was a PUBLIC evet that ANYONE could buy tickets for.

          You brought up being kicked out of a show or something, well there are too many laws surrounding that to possibly get into here but in brief.

          If a person detracts from the show or performance with a public display it is okay to remove them, IF YOU REFUND THE TICKET PRICE. (note to everyone who has ever been kicked out of a concert, return to the venue AFTER the show with the security guards name and time you were removed, you will get a rebate.

          If the person endangers others or creates a security, public safety OR fire risk, they can be removed without the possibility of a refund.

          In the case of a concert, in the old days, anyone jumping the stage was removed from the venue, this is now against the law and they must be sent back into the crowd to do it again and again.

          So to remove several composed women wearing a protest on a T-shirt is not legal up here and I would highly doubt legal there, no matter how screwed up laws are.

          If you have a PRIVATE party and someone turns up unexpectedly, you can remove them.

          if you have a [rivate party and sell tickets publicly, you can remove people that are a risk of security, safety or health but not for wearing the wrong t-shirt, unless you have a dress code in place.

          In the case here, based SOLELY on what I have read here and not from reviewing details of the incident, they had NO right to remove the women.

          Oh, maecuff stop all your testosterone filled anger!

          lastword- You should know better than to share an alternate opinion!

          Ippirate- Don’t you know they are only mere women species ?

          Now play fair or I will smack all your heads together, or buy you all a beer and laugh over a game of darts! 😀

        • #3310544


          by maecuff ·

          In reply to Sorry so late a response….

          I didn’t realize that when I posted this ONE incident, that I had to cite ANY incident that is similar, unfair, whatever. How does this make me a hypocrite?? That makes NO sense whatsoever. This is ONE incident. And Ippirate, please, go back and reread all the posts here. I merely disagreed with you, and your response is page after page of recriminations. Granted, if I am insulted, I will respond, who wouldn’t? But I really think you need to look at your reactions.

        • #3310542


          by maecuff ·

          In reply to Sorry so late a response….

          Since it would be physically impossible for you to buy me a beer and play darts, how about you just send me the cash instead? 🙂

        • #3310514


          by ippirate ·

          In reply to Sorry so late a response….

          You know what, you win. Your right on every point. Sorry to have piped up with my ignorance and offended you with my lack of understanding or insight.

        • #3310500

          ‘she’ didn’t win

          by thelastword ·

          In reply to Sorry so late a response….

          You were logically wrong.

    • #3310108

      Here’s a summary

      by delbertpgh ·

      In reply to How can this happen????

      The New Republic had a short editorial on the Bush campaign’s plan to block out Kerry supporters:

      • #3309920

        Pretty sad isn’t it?

        by oz_media ·

        In reply to Here’s a summary

        next thing you know, you won’t be able to attend a Britney Spears concert with a Christina Aguillera T-shirt on, as they are there to promote Britney not Christina.

        You won’t be able to wear a Met’s shirt in Yankee stadium.

        You won’t be able to display an I love my CAT bumer sticker when parking at a dog show.

        I see the point from both sides, yes freedom of speech is sometimes abused and not used accoridingly, but this is not such an issue.

        If a reporters was to ask, “HOW ARE YOU GOiNG TO BENEFIT AMERICA BETTER THAN JOHN KERRY WILL?”, it could be disallowed as it doesn’t conform to the agenda of the Republican party.

        This is another issue that others outside america see as America’s flaw, everyone screams about rigths this and freedom of speech that. You NEVER hear this from Canadians, we just respect each others right to an opinion even if different from your own, no need to bring it up, it isn’t challenged. With the exception of people who pitch tents on Parliment lawns for months on end.

        Speaking of which, if someone was to want to excerise thier right to speak freely, what would happen if they TRIED to pitch a tent on The White House lawn?

        People camp out in our mayors front yard, they campt out on the lawns of parliment, they rally on the steps of congress, without provocation for the most part, except when forcing thier opinions on others and impeding walkways etc.

        America, land of the free, freedom is what has built America and nobody could possibly understand. 😀

        You guys have more issues than ten presidents could possibly address in 40 years no wonder there is SO much importance placed on politics to the south, you need to constantly fight each other for your rights.

        Pretty sad reality you live in I must admit.

        They may as well say “You have all the freedoms you have earned, unless we don’t like them.”

        • #3308520

          Australian aboriginals ….

          by jardinier ·

          In reply to Pretty sad isn’t it?

          Actually, Oz, Aboriginals set up a tent embassy on the lawns outside Pariament House, Canberra, many years ago.

          I don’t know if it is still there, but there were no attempts made to remove it.

          On another occasion, protesters camped outside the entrance to our only nucler power plant at Lucas Heights in Sydney. Again, I don’t recall that they were forcibly removed.

          As I have a lousy memory about certain things, I am sure that Colin or Alan would be able to verify or invalidate my comments.

    • #3310629

      Don’t question what Bush does

      by av . ·

      In reply to How can this happen????

      That is his administrations’s policy. If Bush has a rally, he only wants supporters, not those that would question him. The person in Wisconsin who asked him about the missing tons of weapons in Iraq did not get an answer. It isn’t on his agenda.

      After reading your post I wondered if I was still living in a free country. This behavior just doesn’t work – EVER – in the America I know.

      Its frightening that it has come to this and even more so that we might be in for another four years of it. If it does come to that, I think we need to revolt in America. We want the truth and for everyone to be heard. We the people.

    • #3310574

      The Practice …

      by jardinier ·

      In reply to How can this happen????

      Amazingly, the episode of “The Practice” screened in Sydney on Tuesday night dealt with this situation, head-on.

      A young woman who was actually a Bush supporter, was holding a placard criticising Bush’s lack of action in regard to certain environmental issues. She was told by a policeman that she was not permitted to exhibit such a placard in a position where it could be seen by Bush.

      And it wasn’t a private function — it was just a group of people waiting to see Bush in a motorcade.

      So in frustration she punched the policeman and ended up in court.

      Eleanor waxed lyrically on the very meat of this discussion — what has become of America? Where are the freedoms of which we were once proud?

      • #3308978

        Oh yea I definitely think it;s worth looking into

        by thelastword ·

        In reply to The Practice …

        It seems they are quite confident that NOOONE will bother about details like that, such as where its at with the PEOPLE. That doesn’t really matter anymore and as a result, lots of things get pulled on people and people either stupidly think ‘its cool’ or agree with it and blindly gloss over the basic issues and rights, thats not good. It happens in Canada too. The Internet stopped people from communicating in way and being down with eachother and not down with government and media. Hopefully this pendulum will swing back before its too late and some crazy stuff gets pushed through as laws. People need to get back together in a more normal way or even on the computer.

        • #3308948


          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Oh yea I definitely think it;s worth looking into

          Though the thought (normal) scares me, I agree.

          I have noticed thet common social skills are completely absent in most kids and even adults now. While running the risk of offending some people, when I was a kid, computer geeks were shut-ins. They hibernated in mom’s basement, devoid of real friends, perhaps a few other ‘geeks’ and were left to thier Vic20’s and Dungeons and Dragons realities.

          Other kids played ball, got into trouble etc. just did KID stuff.

          now I find many parents are these computer geeks (though older) and they see nothing wrong with letting kids be babysat by ninbimbo or other vidiot games, computer chat rooms etc.

          Work is one thing but your WHOLE life?

          I think this has become acceptable as a form of social activity as it is brought on by those with no idea about social activity themselves. these people weren’t ‘cool’ in school, they didn’t get asked to the dance etc.

          many let thier children grow up in this world and they learn nothing about reality in a way.

          Take for instance kids goig out at night. When I was 13, a friend and I took out 10-speds (yes we were cool) on the ferry to nanaimo for the day, we then ferried over to Gabriola and rode around before taking the ferry back home.

          our parents could trust us and knew we were safe because we had grown up in a social world, surrounded by humans (good and bad) and not sheltered, thius we had better judgement of people and right or wrong. Nowdays most parents would go absolutely crazy about the idea of even thier kids going downtown alone they say it’s too dangerous, probably from being so scared of it themselves, but it doesn’t help kids learn judgement.

          the reality is it has AlWAYS been dangerous, we were street savvy as kids, I knew when someone wanted to lure me in his van and drive away, kids today seem to not have a clue and are in danger because they have grown up so sheltered in a little IT world. as a result they don’t understand proper judgement, judgements are made by computers now, kids just click keys and leave most of the work up to the PC.

          trying to get back on track now, sorry, I just thought it was important to realize that a lack of social activity has also reduced may people’s ablity to know what’s right and wrong, who’s good or bad ad generally just trashed the ability to judge life’s little isues accurately.

          kids need outdoor games, sports and other activities in order to eveolve into world savvy adults that can effectively communicate in public.

          Was that even slightly relevant to the topic you wre discussing with Julian? sorry to both of you!

          i feel better though :p

        • #3308944

          well oz you;ve expressed these difficulties before

          by thelastword ·

          In reply to Normal?

          Truthfully, I agree but I don’t necessarily feel its computer geeks grown old as there weren’t enough of them. I feel it’s the geek generation affecting what’s ‘cool’. Media is cool. Advertising is cool. Blindly following technology is cool, trashing on people with nointerest in computers is cool. Kicking a school teacher out a public event is cool. Covering everything with advertising that goes straight into the garbage whilst polluting the crap out of the entire country (#1 cause of pollution- ink and paper production) is cool. If it looks cool, buy it, of someone else bought it, buy it, if someone else did it, it must be cool. The mistake here is that everyone is cool. NOT TRUE.

        • #3308940

          Bring back leather jackets and Daytons

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to well oz you;ve expressed these difficulties before

          back to the old East Van days. (when it was rocker vs preppies)like West Side story without the dancing and maybe just a LITTLE singing.

          I think if more people were FORCED outdoors into a social eniroment, they would start to respect the differences that make the would go around.

          another angle, is how hard people work these days.

          I hear IT guys in the pub or wherever saying how hard a day at work it was?!? a HARD day in IT?

          maybe a confusing day, prehaps somewhat perplexing or even testing on our patience but HARD IT WORK?
          Gimme a break!

          Go and tear apart forms as a construction site lackie for a few months. HARD WORK

          Go and lay under a hot car and swap a transmission. HArD WORK

          Go and load a 54′ trailer full of bags of sand or something, THAT’S DAMN HARD WORK.

          I think it has become a pussy’s world , please excuse the expression. People are too soft now, people can’t take an off color joke without being overly PC about it, people think life should be a cakewalk and when it gets tough they seek out the government to resolve it.
          people have ten certs, a nice manicure and complain that they can’t fine WORK!

          No, you can’t find your CHOICE of work and nobody is obligated to make it easy and nobody owes you a position based on certs, but there is ALWAYS someone willing to put you to WORK.

          I say bring back leather jackets (not those stupid leather car coats IT guys ALL seem to have now to compliment their Dockers as an IT UNIFORM), bring back Daytons. Make people EARN a living and THEN let them off with easy, non physical work in IT. Perhaps they will learn to respect working for a living and earning money instead of expecting it due to an education.

          MAYBE just maybe, we will see less people complaining about the job market because when the going gets tough, the tough get going, they will have work elsewhere no matter how HARD it may be. Nobody WANTS to work hard, that’s why IT is inundated, that’s why everyone has to be a manager.

          I dunno, I came from a home where you worked your ass of if you wanted to make it, no alolwance GET A JOB! I have been knocked down, career wise, so many times I couldn’t begin to count but I keep getting back up. People these days seem too soft, they just lay there and cry until someone holds out a hand to help them back up. So they can bitch and whine about the state the world is in.

          That’s why I get so pissed when people start to doubt my achievments and various jobs I’ve had.

          I have workd my ass of doing anything and everything I can to stay ahead and try to make something of myself, I had a kid at 17 and raised him (with his mothers help), then some dick with a career in IT that can’t even pump his own gas is calling me a liar for what I have done.

          Where I come from, it is totally expected to be a jack of all trades, if not you don’t survive. My father had several trades certiicates at age 17, this is survival, this is life.

          I guess most people just don’t know how or where to focus energy and waste it bitching ad complaining about irrlevancy when there are things that could really benefit with such energy focused on them and people would be farther ahead.

          sorry, more rambling, just a touchy issue with me, I hate people that haven’t EARNED what they have or worked to become something else, especially when they dout me for doing it.

          the silver spooners I can do without. phew. :p

        • #3308887

          Now that I read that

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Bring back leather jackets and Daytons

          I realize I just bitched and complained about irrelevancies! 😀

        • #3308867

          That’s cool, Oz …

          by jardinier ·

          In reply to Bring back leather jackets and Daytons

          I found your autobiographical snippets most interesting and informative.

          In line with your reminiscing, here is an item sent to me recently by a friend:

          People over 35 should be dead.
          Here’s why:

          According to today’s regulators and bureaucrats, those of us who were kids in the 40’s, 50’s, 60’s, or even maybe the early 70’s probably shouldn’t have survived.

          Our baby cribs were covered with bright colored lead-based paint.

          We had no childproof lids on medicine bottles, doors or cabinets, … and when we rode our bikes, we had no helmets.

          (Not to mention the risks we took hitchhiking.)

          As children, we would ride in cars with no seatbelts or air bags.

          Riding in the back of a pickup truck on a warm day was always a special treat.

          We drank water from the garden hose and not from
          a bottle. Horrors!

          We ate cupcakes, bread and butter, and drank soda pop with sugar in it, but we were never overweight because we were always outside playing.

          We shared one soft drink with four friends, from one bottle, and no one actually died from this.

          We would spend hours building our go-carts out of scraps and then rode down the hill, only to find out we forgot the brakes.

          After running into the bushes a few times, we learned to solve the problem.

          We would leave home in the morning and play all day, as long as we were back when the street lights came on.

          No one was able to reach us all day.
          NO CELL PHONES!!!!!

          We did not have Playstations, Nintendo 64, X-Boxes, no video games at all, no 99 channels on cable, video tape movies, surround sound, personal cell phones, personal computers, or Internet chat rooms.

          We had friends!
          We went outside and found them.

          We played dodge ball, and sometimes, the ball would really hurt.

          We fell out of trees, got cut and broke bones and
          teeth, and there were no lawsuits from these accidents.

          They were accidents.
          No one was to blame but us.
          Remember accidents?

          We had fights and punched each other and got black
          and blue and learned to get over it.

          We made up games with sticks and tennis balls and
          ate worms, and although we were told it would happen, we did not put out very many eyes, nor did the worms live inside us forever.

          We rode bikes or walked to a friend’s home and knocked on the door, or rang the bell or just walked in and talked to them.

          Little League had tryouts and not everyone made the team.
          Those who didn’t had to learn to deal with disappointment.

          Some students weren’t as smart as others, so they
          failed a grade and were held back to repeat the
          same grade.

          Tests were not adjusted for any reason!

          Our actions were our own.

          Consequences were expected.

          The idea of a parent bailing us out if we broke a law was unheard of. They actually sided with the law.

          Imagine that!

          This generation has produced some of the best risk-takers and problem solvers and inventors, ever.

          The past 50 years have been an explosion of innovation and new ideas.

          We had freedom, failure, success and responsibility, and we learned how to deal with it all.

          And you’re one of them!


          Please pass this on to others who have had the luck to grow up as kids, before lawyers and government regulated our lives, for our own good !!!!!

          People under 30 are WIMPS

        • #3294770


          by oz_media ·

          In reply to That’s cool, Oz …

          That was like reading my own memoirs or something! Too true, right on the head !

          I remember getting my forehead split open from falling off the gym roof (where we used to get all the balls back on weekends) getting home and getting in sh*t for bleeding all over the place. My parents didn’t call and sue the school, they never chastized them for allowing us to climb on the roof on the weekend. But when we got to school on Monday, we were called in and given detention because my dad ran into the counsellor over the weekend and ratted us out. 😀

        • #3308705


          by thelastword ·

          In reply to Bring back leather jackets and Daytons

          I personally respect tradesman and my family are all tradesman. Trades are good, lots of money! I don’t know if everyone IN ‘IT’ are ‘pussys’,by a trademen/womens terms, no doubt they are! Those are definitely the terms that blue uses for white collar. But I think you are specifically taking issue with some NEW generation of ITer’s, who use it like a trend. This has been spawned by the internet and all of technology became ‘trend’, that snowballed into mass marketing, which snowballed into global internet communication which snowballs into media frenzy. I think it is all tied to together and new IT’er’s feel they are on top of the world but they are on top of a snowball. So they are in like flint on their little web projects with no solid IT knowledge but have a little ‘cool group’ who works together and has the supposed support of all this crap behind them and forget anything from one year ago including anyone with computer background or anything else, well anyone over 23 basically. Word for the day is where it’s at, the reason is that there are a lot of punks with no real useful knowledge running around dissing off everything and flexing their muscle. ALOT Of them come from Vancouver. LOL. Where is it leading? Well, it is leading to people getting pig sick of dealing with it and going into the trades

        • #3294765

          Going into trades

          by oz_media ·

          In reply to Well….

          YEs it is scary as hell to be teamed up in th shop with some clown who doesn’t really want to be there.

          In IT, I have noticed a LOT of people get certs because, as you say, they are trendy and even considered cool by some. THis just ends up in a half assed tech who MAY cost his employer more money than neccessary.

          in trades training, you get someone with a half assed approach because he wants a stable income and you are in trouble.

          I was teamed up in third year with a guy who fell asleep with his face resting against a drill press chuck, while his hand rested on top of the switchbox. he complained about getting his hands dirty because his real dream was computer animation and he was always wanting to protect his hands. When working on a carb rebuild, he whined about not being able to wear gloves, ever try and seat a jet with GLOVES on ?

          After he dropped a car, THANKFULLY nobody was dumb enough to be under it while HE was around, he was finally kicked out of school.

          He was really upset, because his father had told him to go to Vancouver and study a trade at BCIT because he thought that computer animation was no field for HIS son.

          I saw several guys like this in the 6 years I spent at BCIT, they are usually avoided, people will not work with or even near them. If your heart AND your head isn’t in it, save the death for some other line of work.

        • #3294755

          True but the trades got a bad name

          by thelastword ·

          In reply to Well….

          As you say, from the IT office world, and are looked down upon by some, thats how you get half-assed workers. Everyone under the sun has to have a degree or feel ‘less than’. I think that is where it has gotten to in some cases. IT has become a real drawing card. Alot of those schools market the c**p out of it too, there are just so many creative jobs around. Like you said, there is a reality where work is good, getting paid is good and it should be respected regardless of the occupation. I personally don’t look down on trades but I did have a little experience with that. That did go around for sure. Then you end up with a degree and working at Mcdonalds.

    • #3308895

      If this is true, then the Republicans haven’t got a corner on stupidity!

      by optionmeister ·

      In reply to How can this happen????

      Maybe its something in the air but both parties have no qualms about displaying new levels of intolerance and stupidity. This supposedly was in a Vancouver, Washington newspaper.

      Moron Democrat Gets Busted in Washington

      Dear Larry,

      Last Thursday I put out one of my Bush/Cheney signs in my front yard.
      Between midnight and 3:00 a.m. someone stole it. On Friday night I put out
      sign No. 2. Since I didn’t have to get up early, I thought my dog and I
      would “stake out” our sign. This time I put the sign a little closer to
      the gate leading to my backyard. With my dog on an extra long leash, I
      planted myself on a lawn chair and read “Unfit for Command” by flashlight
      until about 1:00 a.m.

      Here comes the fun part . . . I noticed that the car coming down the
      street was slowing down and pulling over to the curb right next to my
      yard. Sure enough, he gets out of his car and heads right for my sign.
      Just as he was about to uproot and desecrate it, I opened my gate and let
      my dog make the initial introduction!

      As he ran to hide behind the rear end of his car, I promptly moved to the
      driver-side door, which was still open. It was a fairly nice car with
      power everything and still running. While my dog continued to “introduce”
      herself, I rolled up the window and hit the power door lock button. With
      that, I slammed the door, grabbed my Bush sign and headed into the back

      And now for the “rest of the story.” About 40 minutes later, I heard a
      knock at the door. I opened the door to one of our city’s finest . . . the
      Vancouver Police Department. The officer asked me what was going on and
      when I told him, he could not stop laughing! I followed him out to the
      perp’s car and stood there while he asked the guy a few more questions.

      Upon learning that the guy lived a couple of streets down, I — knowing
      what was about to happen — asked him, “Why do you have Oregon plates on
      your car if you live just down the street (here in Vancouver, Wash.)?”
      Larry, Oregon has no sales tax, so often, Washington residents will buy
      and register cars in Oregon to avoid paying sales tax . . . it’s a crime
      and the fine is pretty stiff.

      Here comes the best part. . . . The look on this guy’s face told me he
      knew he was about to get busted. When the officer asked for his license and
      registration, the “Democrat” mumbled that (his license) was suspended.
      Just for kicks and giggles I asked the officer if he smelled any alcohol
      coming from the guy! The officer looked at me, smiled and promptly gave
      him a field breathalyzer test. Guess what? You got it, he blew a .10,
      legally drunk in the state of Washington.

      DUI, illegal registration and the brand of “MORON,” all ’cause he hates



      Cost of Bush signs: $5.95 each Cost of Flashlight batteries: $3.95/Pack
      Seeing a Leftwing Numbskull carted off to the hoosegow: Priceless.

      • #3293086

        Truely a thing of beauty

        by jdclyde ·

        In reply to If this is true, then the Republicans haven’t got a corner on stupidity!

        It is amazing how the people that preach tolorance and understanding are the first to go off and so “what ever it takes” because they feel they are morally justified.

        Now the dems are contesting the whole mandate issue. Clinton had less of a majority yet he claimed the same thing.

        Talk about small and petty.

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