How far will the Army go?

"The fact that the weapons inspectors were NOT doing their jobs has no effect on their insistance to continue for a few more decades to let them not do their jobs."

The PROOF is the other way. Weapons inspectors HAD been inspecting properly, in the end. They WERE finding arms, unused and not a threat to the US though. They WERE close to finishing inspections and THAT'S what the rest of the Security Council and allies wanted to wait on.

BUT WHAT IF THEY DIDN'T FINISH? Nobody suggested waiting decades as you suggest yourself.

ALl Allies and the Security Council were in agreement that IF inspections were delayed further, then the use of force TO ENFORCE INSPECTIONS would be approved by all, this is when Kerry was said to be FOR the war when he was actually FOR the use of fore to complete inspections, but Saddam had started to comply and permit inspectors to finish while fearing war on his borders with the same allied vengeance shown in Afghanistan.

Bush said no way, he assured Americans they were not going to be threatened by these KNOWN stockpiles of WMD that Saddam was going to use to kill Americans, inspectors were pulld out for thier own safety and America and the UK invaded
Iraq.

Bush (or his intelligence and government advisors)f***d up,plain and simple. As a result of this F-up, thousands of Americans and Iraqi's have died and continue to die daily with no end in sight.

When you need to save yourselves from a real threat, the world is at your side, and Canadians are STILL at your side in Afghanistan and Germany as well as many other countries. Canada has always been the first to support alies in time of war, from the dawm of history of our nations as allies.

But when you ignore an agreement to complete inspections or use the needed force to complete them, you can't expect too many people playing happy families.

I don't know if your whole point is to work me up, or if you're just drawing some REALLY radical conclusions...but:

I *NEVER* hinted at, implied, or said anything was funny about soldiers dying in this discussion with you.

The closest I got was sarcastically saying pentagon employees you must have had a real "hard knock life", i.e.- I know pentagon employees (government and military both) get benefits, and a pension if they stay long enough, so I know they don't have it too hard.

Nor did I make fun of ANY of your friends, let alone dead ones...nor did I make fun of ANY soldier who has died over there.

You are drawing a VERY outlandish conclusion. I personally know several people (2 of my co-workers where I work now) that got shipped over there earlier this year, and probably others in my home state I went to college with that were gonna be career US Army/National Guard during Desert Storm who are still in the service. And if I went back to Oklahoma more often, I would probably find out I have dead friends too just like you.

I may not think it was right for Bush to send them all over there, but I will *never* blame the troops for being sent. They didn't go without the order from their superiors.

That was just a big assumption you just made.

I've joked you kiss Bush's butt...I've said I didn't like soldiers dying over there in other threads...I've said I think Bush isn't that smart...I've said Bush allowed not-seemingly-on-the-level contracts to be given out under his presidency...I've even joked about Saddam sending you a burka to lighten things up.

BUT...

and...I am making this clear just for you.

I never...ever...made fun of...ANY US soldier dying. PERIOD.

I have friends who are career military. I have friends and relatives that have died in wars. I have an 80-something uncle that tells stories about being on a ship in Pearl Harbor and saving 22 crewmen that would rip your f***ing guts out.

So...never...EVER...say I make fun of that.

You...ITGirli...are wrong. Plain...simple...misled...misguided...wrong.

I just hope you're trying to push my buttons.

Otherwise...I'm gonna have to worry about you.

P.S. to ITGirli - if you think I'm a liar, let me know when to meet you in Gulfport, Mississippi...that's where my Pearl Harbor veteran uncle lives in a Naval Home. I'll take you to meet him just so you know I'm not a liar and that I'm not ashamed of him one friggin bit.

You go around trying to push your opinion on people and expect them not to push back. When someone pushes back and states a different opinion you call them childish and wrong. I have been reading your post in this thread and have seen alot of misleading or incorrect information that you are trying to pass of as the truth.

You are the one that needs to grow up. Other people opinions matter, get used to it. You may intimidate some of the other poeple on these boards, but you will never take away my free speach.

Without the 2nd, there would be no 1st.

I see you still haven't figured that one out yet.

I've sene poeple lose thier cool in political threads, I'VE lost it more than once myself, but this one's just ready to pop.

Damn, maybe we should ad a health disclaimer to political threads from now on to keep people safe from mental harm.

If you are too denfensive of your own point and cannot refrain from losing your cool, please click here to visit the "Happy Bunny Rabbit befriends Mr. Squirrel" thread.

:D oh, what a day, I need some horse racing!

When this came up for debate at the UN, Canada tried to broker a compromise deal. Arms inspections would continue for another 6 months (turned out to be 3 months after US invaed). If Saddam had in any way obstructed the inspections or was found to have hidden WMDs, Canada was fully prepared to participate in the war. The US would not even consider a compromise, and the deal died.

James

Although TR promotes dialogue between its staff, members and users, we can not be held accountable for injuries incurred as a result of you pissing off your fellow chatters.

Viewer discretion is advised.

Do not remove this tag, under penalty of law.

Batteries not included.

(I think I got some of them for Management.) ;)

How tall are you? Everyhing seems to just sail over your head!

Speak to ME, defend your point, you are welcome to and I invite your PROOF that you say you have.

The problem is, when people don't want to face an issue, the easy way out is to make third party comments (not addressing the person themselves) in an attempt to build alliance and while doing so, invite attack.

I've studied psyche long enough to understand methods of reaching a predetermined conclusion.

THAT'S what I was telling you to grow up for, but in doing so have done exactly what you intended and walked into your little rant.

You speak ABOUT me to someone else, you say you can PROVE all these things wrong, yet your post is completely abesent of your addressing my comments directly to me and offering your counter points/facts.

You will get the hang of it sooner or later I guess.

For now it's just growing pains and a weak try.

I tore one off when I moved one year, they still haven't found me yet though. I think if I just keep on moving, like David Banner did, I'll be okay.

"One of these days, I'm gonna change my evil ways....one of these days." ]:)

this is nothing yet, in a good political discussion, we start to tear apart SOURCES of proof, doing background searches on reporters and coprporate build of sources, not the the comments offered themselves. This one is weak at best.

I've never done anything terribly wrong in my life growing up.

I need to be corrupted.

Too bad I don't have $2B or I'd get Paris Hilton to corrupt me :)

You are trying to train people here to post just like you. I have freedom of speach and intend to keep it. I don't need to learn how to post on these boards. Do you get some kind of thrill trying to brain wash people with your mumbo jumbo. Small minded people may fall for that, but I will not.

Keep throwing the insults and back handed comments, you never know you might impress someone.

BTW
Stop trying to take peoples freedom of speach away!! Let people have their opinions.

Still haven't figured it out yet have you. You must not be as smart as you think you are.

My source here is Talk of the Nation on NPR on Tuesday of this week, the guest was a high-up in the Army. He said that historically, during ALL wars the "front-line" branches of the military have a hard time filling their ranks. During WWII, (according to the Army high-up) in the US, it was actually forbidden to join the military voluntarily. You HAD to be drafted, because everyone was trying to join the Navy and Coastguard so as to avoid the front lines.

It's no different with the Iraq war. The Navy and Coast Guard are having no troubles filling their ranks, it's the Army, Air Force, and Marines that are having problems recruiting. And just like any group of salesmen whose livelihood depends on how much they can sell... some of them are bound to do things a bit [i]crooked[/i].

My point here, is that, this is in no way the "fault" of the administration... much as I STRONGLY DISLIKE GW's policies and actions in office, ya can't blame EVERYTHING on him... and expect anybody to believe you.

After over a decade, the only thing people had to say was give it more time.

Let Saddam play his games.
Let him disregard anything that the mighty UN decrees against them as many times as they want. The UN can always write more.

And after all the corruption in the UN that is now finally coming out it is clear that they would have kept asking for 6 months over and over until they stopped getting their kickbacks. As OZ says, for the UN it was all about the oil.

How many times had Saddam violated the no-fly-zone?
How many times had the fired on planes patroling the no-fly-zone?

I know, none of that matters.

I am wrong, you are right, and Saddam should get the nobel peace prize for being such a humanitarian.

Or Oz do you disagree with third party compliments.

I tried to make that point in the first post.

There have been recruiting stories in every volunteer force. Centuries ago, the British used to go to pubs and pick out the most inebriated individuals. When they left, they would be followed, knocked upside the head and find themselves on a ship the next morning. They may or may not have made an X beside their name.

This isn't restricted to the current administration - I am sure there have been lots of stories ever since WWII and the build up of the "permanent" force.

James

"Who would have thought thirty years ago we would all be sitting here drinking Chateau de Chassiley wine, eh?"

"In them days, we were glad to have the price of a cup of tea."

"Aye, a cup of cold tea"

"Without milk or sugar"

"Or tea"

"In a filthy cracked cup."

"We never used to have a cup. We used to have to drink out of a rolled up newspaper."

"The best we could manage was a sock or a piece of damp cloth."

"But ye know, we were happy in those days, though we were poor ..."

"Because we were poor. My old Dad used to say to me 'Money doesn't buy you happiness'."

"He was right. I was happier then and I had nothing! We used to live in this tiny old house with great big holes in the roof."

"House, you lived in a house? We used to live in one room, all twenty-six of us, no furniture, half the floor was missing, and we're all huddled together in one corner for fear of falling."

"You were lucky to have a room! We used to have to live in the corridor!"

"Oooooh, we used to dream of living in a corridor. It would have been a palace to us. We used to live in an old water tank on a rubbish heap. We got woken up every morning to having a load of rotting fish dumped all over us. House? Uh!"

"Oh, when I said house I meant a hole in the ground covered by a piece of twig. It was a house to us."

"We were evicted from our hole in the ground. We had to go and live in the lake!"

"You were lucky to have a lake! There were a hundred and fifty of us living in a small shoebox in the middle of the road."

"Cardboard box?"

"Aye"

"You were lucky. We lived for three months in a brown paper bag in a septic tank. We used to have to get up at six in the morning, clean the bag, eat a crust of stale bread, go to work down the mill fourteen hours a day, week in, week out, and when we would go home, dad would thrash us to sleep with his belt."

"Look, we used to have to get out of the lake at three o'clock in the morning, clean the lake, eat a handful of hot gravel, go to work for twenty hours at the mill every day for a tuppence a month, come home, and dad would beat us around the head and neck with a broken bottle ... if we were lucky!"

"Well, we had it tough. We used to have to get up out of the shoebox at twelve o'clock at night, and lick the road clean with our tongues. We had one handful of freezing cold gravel, work at the mill for twenty-four hours a day for four bits every six years, and when would get home, our dad would slice into us with a bread knife."

"Right!"

"I had to get up in the morning at ten o'clock at night, half an hour before I went to bed, eat a lump of dry poison, work twenty-nine hours a day down at the mill, and when we got home, our dad would kill us and dance about on our graves singing Hallelujah!"

"You can't tell the young people of the day that. They won't believe you."

I never said Saddam was an angel. There was much more justification for taking him out in Gulf War 1 -he had agressively invaded a neighbour, he threatened another(Saudi), and he had a massive army. Ten years later, his army had wasted away, he couldn't even hold on to the north of his country. He was less of a threat to the world in 2001 than 1991, unless of course you believed he had weapons of mass destruction.

Canada's proposal was a tight timetable - six months until invasion, with a list of things Saddam had to do to avoid it. It was a determined attempt to put a finite limit on inspections.

But of course you have to condemn something you haven't even considered, because it didn't come from the US.

And in a way, Canada did tacitly contribute troops to Iraq. Canada withdrew its troops at the scheduled time from Afghanistan because of all the committments we had were streching our forces thin. But when the US asked, we sent forces back to Afghanistan, knowing this would free up US forces to go to Iraq.

The fact is that Saddam had an iron fist on a country that would break into predictable civil strife if there was any chance of a power vacuum. The Sunni minority clung to power through oppresion, the Kurds would fight for their own country and the Shia majority was itching for both religious freedom and power.

James

These threads don't always post right and I want to make sure.

I understand what you are saying. I am not taking sides in the "heated" discussion between ItGirli and yourself and others.

I only wanted to express my sympathy for her feelings about the situation. If you notice I also specified that I don't like Bush, never have by the way, but my reasons were not Iraq. I suppose I should say not ONLY Iraq.

Also, I think other issues going on in the world are doing so NOW because they realize that Bush over extended us and alienated most of our allies. I can't say for certain that going in to Iraq was right or wrong at the time it was done. Did Bush push for it - YES. Inspectors were reporting that Saddam was making it near impossible for them to do their job.

I think we could have done other things before going in. I think Bush used the whole WORLD's strong emotion over 9/11 and other attrocities by Saddam to do what he did.

The only thing I really care about right now is the soldiers and civilians dieing (sp?) over in Iraq. All the different soldiers and civilians from all the countries including the Iraquies (sp?).

How can we stop hate and terrorism when we can't even have a discussion here in TR without it becoming so "heated". I guess I really am an innocent and nieve (sp?) person because I just want us all to get along and work together. (no kum-by-ya's please - I am serious).

A mirror of hypocrisy.

[i]"I have freedom of speach and intend to keep it. I don't need to learn how to post on these boards."[/i]

And I DON'T have freedom of speech?
There is a common format of posting the same old political rhetoric so that it is not just a flaming contest. This was found as a community on TR through many thousands of circular aguments and limitations of the thread length and tree span. My point is that you can't address ME or a comment I've made with any fact or proof to support your claim that it is invalid. You simply flame me to someone else and don't have anything to substantiate your claims.

[i]"Stop trying to take peoples freedom of speach away!! Let people have their opinions."[/i]

Again, are you suggesting i don't?

[i]"Keep throwing the insults and back handed comments, you never know you might impress someone."[/i]
Followed by:

[i]"Still haven't figured it out yet have you. You must not be as smart as you think you are."[/i]

Well done and thank you.

American oil demand wasn't creating a market for smaller countries to push for oil from Iraq, because the US wcouldn't buy it from Iraq themselves.

The US didn't stall inspections of goods entering Ira indefinitely and actually breach the rules of the OFF agreement, further weakening any possibilty for international relations. Most of us have seen that US Embassy's Report to Congress now, before and after it was edited on teh White House website.

The point is, it's NOT the US's fault (not what I'm getting at) but how quickly people refer to sanction breaches without recognizing how the US was encouraging breaches for thier own gains, and then witholding a portion of thier own duty to aid the purpose of the OFF program to begin with.

I have only ever taken a political interest when it concerns my own well being.

And the US Economy and global position is in my best interests, what goes on in your homeland as far as taxation and personal issues is your ball game.

This could have been done differently, not as a late realization but a definite indication that there was a better way, which was blatantly ignored.

For disagreeing, I have been called every name under the sun.

I would like to see the USA to pay attention and actually think before they go gangbusters into everything they do in such a stereotypical fashion.

So no kum-bah-yah but I remember a time when I actually really liked the US. I operated 2 offices in the states and have worked with countless people while working in the US.

It's just a damn shame that for such a politically concerned nation, I had to watch people stand for this and even support it. It was complete insanity from the onset. It was like watching lemmings really, when I FIRST saw Bush on TV, I figured 'no WAY they'll buy THIS guy's BS', but one by one they all started jumping off the cliff.

And the barstewards that I work with left EVERYTHING so I've actually been too busy to post and I've just been reading the odd thread. Been working tonight from home and just tried to chill this thread a bit with one of my favourite Pythons of all time.

Anyway, with the Iraq war and terrorism - been there, done that. Didn't want Girli spitting at ME! (It was an illegal invasion, though!)

I'll have a look at your link tomorrow. Saw the thread but haven't read it and now its 47 posts long!

Bedtime over here... Midnight and I turn into a...

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Afg!

:D

as an odd thread. :)

Hope you get your feet under you soon and join us again. You're right, that whole justification issue is just old hat now, can't believe there are still people who buy into the reasons cited though.

is you stick your nose into business that don't involve you. Thats what my beef is...mind your own damn business. Iraq is ours and we will deal with them they way we chose and your opinion nor your judgement are not wanted or needed.

If you feel US's actions affect you...I want you to clearly show me HOW? WHEN? WHERE?

Its like an ass/hole going out into the world telling it to stop the smell. WTF? Shut up!

With Kerry, who apprently stabbed the US Military in the back and was considered a traitor not a soldier by so many peers here last year. A REAL soldier would never do such a thing.
A REAL Republican would never expres distatse in the current administration, but more and more do as they finish duties in Iraq.

They say things like how they were once career military men, they would never fight for the US again under such a screwed up administration.

Then again, as you say, he is very left and that disqualifies him from any relevant comment worth listening to anywy. ;)

Your vague, shallow, and pathetic answers which you have been giving for the last 2 years for the same question don't work with me.

Every country's actions affect any other country that is a participant on the global stage. US isn't the sole party that is shaking the boat. So your theory is shot to shit..

Now again...how, when, and where has US actions affected you personally??

Give me examples, give me some statistics, give me some personal experiences that you and your family had to go through because US went to war in Iraq. Give me some photos while you are at it. Posting on an anonymous MB on the internet about crap isn't showing me proof of anything.

You seem to be an expert into sticking your nose into other people's business and making comments about things that don't concern you..so I figured what the hell...if an Oz can do it, so can anyone.

You have no point to make or comment to add at all, you just advocated sticking your nose in other people's business.

If you refuse to understand the simple fact that your foreign affairs effect a great deal of the free world,or fel that America is invisible, then you can just pretend that it is okay to make your business MY business then. Obviously you have a great imagination.

Thus you have no valid comment and simply wanted to post to read your own name on the screen.

There's little hope of teling you anything.

You can't seriously believe that YOUR war in Iraq has no adverse effect on OUR economy, OUR trade agreements, OUR relations and OUR lives. To think otherwise is a pathetically dense frame of mind.

Canada has ALWAYS had an issue with Americans demanding mroe resources from us for less and less money, this puts people I know and friends I have out of work, places them at a lower income level or simply sees thier companies boughtout by US Companies in order to sate thier own needs and wants.

When YOUR country is in the hole, which it is now, WE suffer directly. Trade prices are challenged, MY friends and family are paid less, I get paid less because I earn a living based on a US income too.

What warped stretch of your imagination would see otherwise?

Everything your country does effects us, going into undreds of billions of debt over anunneccessary and unjustified war for your administrations own benefit, has a direct and advers effect in all that you conduct business with. And this includes ME, MY Family, My Freinds etc.

I paid $1.05Liter for gas last weekend, never did befroe the Iraqi invasion, in fact the price has literally DOUBLED since America's little population thinning tactics.

Do YOU really still believe this war is in YOUR best interests? Have you been asleep for a year or something?

How can you be so naive? Do you just plug your ears and close your eyes when unfavorable news is reported or something?

Give it a rest, you always ask otherpeople to defend thier own poins but I have yet to see you offer ANY substantial evidenc eot support a single comment you've ever made here.

I am sure the rest of the peers, including those who favour this war, will agree that it obviously has adverse effects on your neighbours and allies. Don't be such a fool!

Your country's frivolous spending eventually comes out of OUR pockets, got it yet?

Do you think that only Americans are affected by terrorism? I myself have been shot at, bombed and abused by crowds of people we have been trying to help. I have lost friends in circumstances I felt we should not have been in, but we were there anyway.

Your government walked into Afghanistan after Sept 11 on dodgy info. Then decided Saddam once had coffee with Bin-Laden so felt that was a good excuse to go into Iraq. When they discovered that was wrong it was WMD. Now that has been found to be wrong what will the next excuse be.

The only reason America and England have a vested interest in Iraq is oil. I have a colleque from South Africa that has been telling me of his first hand accounts of the genocide under Mugabis government. But because Zimbabwe has nothing we want we will stay clear and continue to let the people suffer while the UN talk behind their comfortable desks.

Time for both our Governments to grow up I think but that will only happen if the electorate grow up first.

We don't care what the world thinks. The world has some strange double standards. I don't see you commenting on Chinese human rights violations, Chechnya and Russian conflicts, French-African revolutions, etc. For the last time Fuck off!

Now, wipe the spit off the screen. Try and have a discussion without punching anything.

Though I will say that I thought that this was a thread about US actions in Iraq. And, as my country has troops there too, I'll say what I f*cking well like.

If you'd get your head out of you arse long enough to look around you might realise that everyone needs friends and you, the US, are in real danger of alienating everyone.

For instance, if you want to keep your borders safe then you have to accept that Canada and Mexico need to be on your side. Logic dictates to the Canadians that, given the option, the best place for mad muslim terrorists is in your country and not theirs. It's in their best interest to let 'em all through.

As for all of those other places, what are you thoughts? Let's get the baseline redneck viewpoint and we can go from there. I suppose you'll deal with all of them in turn in any manner that you choose.

Neil

then I should stop asking questions like these because obviously they are beyond your intelligence. But I have still a small sliver of hope for you...so here it is again.

NAME SPECIFICS OF HOW AMERICAN INVASION OF IRAQ HAS AFFECTED YOU SOMEWHERE IN MOOSECOUNTRY, CANADA!

If all you are stating is that the price of oil went up, then you are a bigger fool than I thought with clear lack of understanding of supply and demand (increased oil consumption by China and India anyone??) and of international markets. Please go and EDUMICATE yourself. Mmm..kk..thnx!

Your vague answers of economic ripples or whatever the hell you are talking about...well I have one word for you...its called REACH!(Since you might not understand American humor and wit either because you are slow or surprise!! you don't live here...I suggest you ask what REACH is to your so many American friends who you claim to have).

We keep coming back to the same question don't we? How does American foreign policy affect your family and friends or country any more so than any other country's foreign policy? Give me specifics...besides the latest prices on gasoline or toilet paper.

The interesting part about this whole thing is...you are the only one who bitches about Canadian trading getting the short end of the stick. I know you like to think your Canada is important...psst..I have news for you...its not...very soon it will be the 51st state of America. So get your Moose horns ready for an invasion...becuase according to your logic of American foreign policy ...America invades on self interest and consumption and your claims that Canada has all these natural resources...well we will be seeing you in winter then! BUHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/top/#2004

http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c1220.html#2005

It seems to me we owe you money...you don't owe us money. According to these statics (aka specifics) Canada is selling to US more than we are to them...so how the hell are you coming up with "US not living up to its bargain" crap??

http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/statistics/highlights/top/top0412.html

Golly gee here is more...Chew on it for a while and then read it (I heard that helps a lot) and then reply with the usual lies and truthspinning.

Spotted this today

http://story.news.yahoo.com/s/usatoday/armyoffers15monthhitch

is that, in fact, we still show military "etiquette" to those who would not do the same even though we're all losing our troops at an alarming rate.

Terrorist groups, not being government entities, are not bound to hold to the terms of the Geneva Convention and other agreements which guarantee the health, welfare and safety of captured military opposition.

Why do we afford them these considerations, when it's been proven they give no one else the same?

The British came into the American colonies, marching in straight line formations and fighting like "proper gentlemen". The American colonists had no such standard they felt they had to follow.

Why do we, the Americans, make the same mistake?

We should fight them like they fight us. If not, we're doomed to lose.

And so long as American allies are doing the same, you will continue to lose your military soldiers as well.

I hope, for the sake of all military personnel, that the military and government leaders get their heads out of their arses and learn their not going to win so long as they roll into towns in their armored personnel carriers, camouflauge, and flak jackets with all the finesse of an elephant on hallucinatory drugs.

Going after Saddam wouldn't have stopped terrorism from propagating in his country or any other. Wherever there are pissed off Muslims who think America its allies are the devil, they will be able to recruit new terrorists at will.

Two things we have to do is:

a) break the cycle of the ignorance that's rampant in the terrorist mentality.

b) fight the existing terrorists at their level, not one based upon a standard, predictable military strategy.

That will make more headway than chasing Saddam, Osama, and their henchmen all over the globe.

I know this will just dig my hole deeper, but oh well.

Oz, if you and everyone you know is so dependent on the US as you say wouldn't it be better to SUPPORT us to make sure we are successful in what we do because that will benifit you by us doing well? Isn't helping us helping yourself then? Doesn't that make more sence then to try to demoralize and critasize?

Just a thought.

The US Military is still in Afghanistan. I have friends over there hunting for "turds". I don't care if C-a-n-a-d-a supports us or not, they can't even decide who is in charge of there country.

...tring to tell people there opinion is the wrong one? How is this different then telling them to "shutup"? You just don't have the balls to come out and say it.

Or is that being "childish" as you say?

Without the 2nd there would be no 1st!!

The US, Canada, Britain, France are still in Afghanistan. There are riots there as we speak over allegations that US interogators at Guantanamo put Qu'ran in the toilet. Afghan police have killed a few rioters

Frankly that allegation sounds vaguely familiar. At the time of rebellions in India during the Birtish colonial rule, there was an uprising. There was a rumour circulated that the new paper rifle cartridges were greased with beef fat - a serious charge in a country where cows are sacred. This caused alot of Indian units to suffer desertions.

James

It isn't just Canada that is dependant on America, the reverse is also true. When our economy goes down, we do influence yours as well. We are you biggest trading partner - bigger than China or Japan or Britain or Germany.

For 50 years, Canada has sided with the US, and at times sided with the US over Britain (The Suez Crisis). We stayed out of Vietnam.

What you seem to imply is a one sided relationship - we should support you right or wrong. Sorry thats unrealistic - there will be times when our interests conflict or our perspective is different. We may be smaller, but we are a sovereign nation with our own policy.

Put yourself in our shoes, the US doesn't automatically support Canadian initiatives - and we have made many foreign policy initiatives in the areas of peacekeeping, foreign aid, international justice, and other areas. The US doesn't automatically support Canada - why should you expect Canada to do the same?

James

and being an anoying little yippy dog barking at our heals.

It is just like what goes on in this country, where people that think they are doing something good but just make matters worse. If you or anyone feeds into the negative image then YOU spread that image.

I have been to Canada enough to know that it isn't the eutopia that it is often portrayed to the rest of the world as.

Homelessness, unemployment, rampant polution.

While you do import better looking strippers than we do, I would say that is where a lot of the differnces end. That and we can order a beer by name instead of by "colour". (give me a blue) lol!

Undermining an ally isn't always the best aproach is what I am trying to say. Now if we had invaded CANADA, I could see a little bit of this (maybe) but to go out of your way to make someone who is suppose to be a friend look bad isn't much of a friend.

How would you react if a personal friend did this behaviour to you? You would realize this person isn't really your friend, wouldn't you?

Is that how we as Americans should take the intentional attempts to critisize us?

Just a thought between and about "friends".

didn't think you had that in you?

And yes, have you noticed the complete lack of outrage of the scum "insurgents" booby trapping bodies in complete violation of the Geniva convention? Of them bombing civilians and aid workers?

But that is ok with the rest of the world. Just don't make fun of the captives we have or their will be hell to pay.

And no, you do NOT give these combatants US lawyers or worry about infinging their "civil rights" as they are not protected under our bill of rights as enemies of the US.

Hang 'em high.

The US doesn't hesitate to criticize Canada. Often and loudly. So why would you ask us to be polite and restrained? If you want to have a friend be a friend.

I never said Canada was perfect. Of all the problems you've mentioned, I can show you worse in the US. That doesn't make it acceptable in either country.

Its a two way street. We don't owe the US a slavish loyalty. We support the US in many things, and our support is NOT reciprocated. The one time we disagree, you take it personally. If we felt the same way, we would be a lot more vocal than we are. But as realists, we know that there is more in common with us than divides us, and by the nature of geography, it is in our mutual best interest to learn to get along.

James

If you're criticizing those who support Bush and bashing Bush and his policies. Yet, you benefit from things the USA does. How smart do you think it is to bash those you want to allow free trade which benefits you?

You gotta lie to me more, baby! hahaha :)

I have heard many rantings about more than just Iraq. Look at the whole global vocalization over the last election. It had more going on than just Iraq. Some were almost foaming at the mouth that Bush could win the election.

I personally don't critisize Canada, nor do I hear it from main stream media. As I said repeatedly, I like canada. I go there a few times a year. Toronto is only a five hour ride, no biggie for me.

I know O'Reily has critisized you, and not ALWAYS without some reaons. I know, you don't LIKE him. Then don't listen to him. Lots of people don't.

For the most part the only thing I have heard bad towards Canada, Toronto specifically is the dumping of their trash, garbage, and sewage sludge in Michigan. And I fully agree with this critisism. And no, I don't care if you are taking some of our toxic or radioactive waste.

No one said anything about slavish loyalty, but that doesn't mean to air all dirty laundry on a global stage. And yes, I know not everyone in Canada is in need of their shots on subjects like this as Oz is, but it still gets really shrill sometimes.

And until their is an invasion from the north, what Canadians thing doesn't mean ANYTHING when it comes to our elections. I don't care how much of our news you watch.

Oz...when the terrorist crap happens Canada will get dragged in?

Hmm...7 terrorists crossed from Canada into the USA.

I think Canada's immigration policy pretty much does show some lacking in the security.

Besides...I don't advocate the US being a powerhouse, especially with Bush in office. He's a new napoleon. I'm glad for once we have 2 term limits on presidents.

But again, Canada nor the USA nor any other country is pure as the driven snow...save maybe...Madagascar.

As for Canada...I'll be visiting soon...so...hide your daughters... :)

Although I have a great natural ability to leave dialogue out of postings due to the fact I can't type as fast as I think...I am actually really smart.

And if elected leader of the world...I will make sure...everyone gets a free pack of batteries...and a Garfield portable radio.

I'm keepin the bich-ez for myseff! haha ;)

I'm RICK JAMES, BEEATCH!

When did that happen? McCartney murder? These guys are still out there killing people.

Although it would appear that they are no longer putting some sort of political facade on it.

to send to Iraq. You had a lot more allies in the Afghan invasion and others, Germans for instance, are sending additional troops in to there to allow you to pull out the forces.

Rather makes my point to Garion - friends are better than neutrals or enemies on both a personal and national level.

Never mind, it's Friday and I'm off home in another hour.

Neil :)

When America invaded Iraq it was to show people in non-democratic countries that freedom and democracy is the better choice.

We show them that our way of life is FAR mroe civil and free than thiers.

We show them that we have government protections that afford us our freedoms without fear of repercussions.

Now if we went in and TERRORIZED captives, a mirror image of what these peope have experienced, how could we EVER propose to be better than the rest?

In these cases we are trying to lead by example. Our government, our way of life, our humanity, does NOT allow us to traet any other human being in such a mindless and torturous way.

It would be much harder to enfirce our veiws of our way of life while acting in the same fashion as the repressors and terrorists we are there to remove.

It's called leading by example, something amiss in many companies these days. We are NOT animals, we are NOT terrorists, we do NOT allow people to be tortured. Anything else would be purely hypocritical and counterproductive.

WE resove issues through democratic processes, not by cuttngpeople's heads off, and this is the message people need to see in order for other countries to understand and hopefully grasp democracy.

Let's not start walking backwards in time and reducing ourselves to the mentality of those we fight against. That's just dumb.

When oen person offers a view and you offer counterpoints to enforce your own view, it is not telling people what to think, or telling themto shut up, it is showing alternative fact or opinion.

The original poster then has every right to rpovide even further proof or evidence, feelings, opinion, to support thier OWN claim.

Should we all just be happy 'yes men' that simply agree withwhatever is said whether we believe t or not? Just to keep some people happy that they had an uncontested opinion?

"When America invaded Iraq it was to show people in non-democratic countries that freedom and democracy is the better choice.

We show them that our way of life is FAR mroe civil and free than thiers.

We show them that we have government protections that afford us our freedoms without fear of repercussions.

Now if we went in and TERRORIZED captives, a mirror image of what these peope have experienced, how could we EVER propose to be better than the rest?"

We? A lot of "we"s in there now for someone who distances himself from American institutionalism and talks belittlingly of American foreign policies...hehehe.

Are you American now? Feeling lonely? Need a hug?

Welcome to the club, my brutha! Your Bush button and GOP bumper sticker are in the mail!!! ;)

I hear they're looking for some.

just go to http://www.whitehouse.gov ;)

..name calling if someone does not "debate" in the same manner as you. I believe I can state my opinion without posting supporting facts on it. It is an opinion and I don't need to show you way I have it. Are we to check our freedom of speach when we enter a thread with you?? You think you are clever trying to breakdown peoples post, but I see through you.

BTW, do they have a special class in c-a-n-a-d-a that teaches you to read into everything??

Figure it out yet??
With out the 2nd, there would be no 1st!

Debate that one.

If you are referring to the terrorist responsible for 9/11, not a one had crossed into the US from Canada.

As for OTHER terrorists coming fromCanada to the USA, you are missing a HUGE and very important piece of teh puzzle.

When you cross from Canada TO the USA, WHO allows you to pass? US border guards that's who,NOT Canadian border guards.

If YOU allow terrorists to cross from Canada into the USA than how is that OUR problem?

Plus it is all just BS that these terrorists crossed from Canada anyway.

As for Garion,

NAFTA is NOT a fair trade agreement, well it MAY be if it was lived up to. James has specifics of numbers and dollars (which eh ahs shown before) if you wish to persue that angle, he's the Canadian politics guru, not me. I live in a province riddled with unemployment due to the Free Trade agreement, I live less than half a mile form a US company that moved here due to the need for lopwer cost lumber, they put many people out of work, they closed more than one VERY productive mill, they bought thousands of acres of BC forest and BARELY live up to environmental restrictions while starving it of any possiblity of reforestation.

So YOUR company's have destroyed OUR economy ina rush to get more for less. The harder your economy gets hit, or is pissed away by your president, the harder WE get hit. The demand for lower proices continues, thus people I know lose work, lose thier llivelihoods and lose thier homes due to the constant need of mroe for less from the south. Whether fish, lumber, hydro electric power, natural gas, grains or oil, it is an increasing demand for more product at a lower price that is killing OUR resources in an attempt to continue fair trade. So when YOUR country purposely destrpys and squanders it's own economy, who do YOU think is directly effected by this? YOU LARGEST resource, Canada. Not teh UK, or Germany, or Japan, CANADA.

So now you have a country of 30 million people who feel that America's greed is ruining our livlihoods, putting Canadian companies out of business and causing a huge environmental effect on our natural resources. IF America wants to make things worse for themselves and increase the demand and reduce the prices (due to a beateneconomy) how the hell do YOU think it DOESN'T direct;y effect ME, my family and my friends?

Funny, but when I worked in the US there were a lot of people who saw how the US was beating these resources out of Canadians while harming our livelihoods. Perhaps you need to look out the west coast window one day and see exactly how reliant on our resources you really are one day, instead of plaing dumb and thinking you support the world as a whole.

I will not continue to answer your questions over and over again and hear you repeat yourself over and over again. You have proven your inability to comprehend long ago.

You want asingle example?

I have seen an entire town pretty much shut down due to the US pushing for more and mroe fishing rights in Canadian waters. One of the largest packing plants in Western Canada closed a few years back and it was responsible for employing hundreds of full time and providing student jobs all summer.

Entire comercial fishing fleets have been shut down due to the US pushing for more and mroe access to Canadian waters.

By the time you add the Native Indian PROTECTED waters and fishign openings, there is no way for a Canadian fleet or family ot survive as the cost for the catch is reduced more and mroe every year, the aility to sell that fish to the US market is removed and the fish are fewer and fewer as mroe and more US boats fish Canadian waters.

Are you trying to suggest that the war will have no economical effects on the US AND Canada that will further harm ths industry?

Try teling that to third generation fishing families who are now living on a mere puttance and have been unable to pay the leaseon thier boats, closed up shop and moved out of town with no hope of a future. Just make sure you do it from a safe distance, you think I'm pissed at US trade actions, you would need a rocketcar to get away from the mob that would chase you down the street.

The US/Canadian borders are always blamed for CANADA allowing people to enter the US, but there is a HUGE gaping hole in such an argument.

When you cross the border to the US, there are US guards at the border, US customs allows people into the USA, not Canadian customs.

Just like ANY country you enter, when you go from England to Canada, you don't find Britsh customs agents in Toronto when you arrive. The country you are ENTERING permits your passage, not the one you are leaving.

So all this crap about Canada letting terrorists enter the US is complete garbage. Not a single Canadian customs agent has EVER permitted passage to someone entering the USA, the US lets them in.

Plus it was proven before that the 9/11 suspects didn't enter from the Canadian border anyway.

By WE, I meant 'WE' the civilized world.

WE have to lead by example and not act like the animals we are trying to repress. The rest of the world IS stil fighting a war on terror in countries allover the world, where AlQaeda sects are being closely watched and monitored. The war on terrorism isn't just 'IRAQ'.

That isn't what your president or soldiers think at all.

Your president has said that he rlies on Canada's military presence. Candaian recon is in demand by forces all over the world, including US forces in Iraq.

It was shown that IF the US had been using canada's recon in Afghanistan several tank crews would be alive today. We have faster, stringer and more advanced recon vehicle than the USA and they are needed in time of war.

Our naval fleet was the main force that impeded the smuggling of oil and other restricted goods in teh Gulf, American sailors prised he efforts of the Canadian fleet, who had faster and more maneuverable (though aging) ships in the Gulf.

The mindset you have is one that kills people. 'We are tough enough to do it alone.'

News flash, no you're not, you realy on alliesfrom Canada and the UK, Germany, France etc. in times of war, solo you don't have such a great track record.

I haven't called anyone the names you seem to throw around so cleverly in your posts.

As for picking apart a post pont by point, iut has been proven ere before that simply sjaring ideas without pinpointing teh comments exactly does not work and only causes much confusion due to the limitations of the forum.

So while you intend on throwing names around and accusing people of anything you can dream up, you fail to recognize that it will be thrown right back at you, and when it is you get all righteous and pisse off without realizing you are just getting exact;y what you dish out.

You also refer to how I am dealing with OTHER people all the time, I don't see too many pople having a hard time speaking thier mind here, have I repressed you or something?

get with the program.

When you make absurd comments, it is to be expected that they will be analyzed and picked apart intricately point by point, that is the nature of debate.

Don't care for it? Only want to say what you feel andhave nobody counter your comments? Teletubbies must be on somewhere, just change the channel.

It's none of your business so just STFU! :D

[b]If a terrorist comes from Canada into the US it IS the FAULT of Canada for allowing them their in the first place.[/b] It IS easier to get in the US via Canada than to come directly in. That is how and why it [b]IS[/b] YOUR problem. Not long ago YOU were complaining about it taking more time to cross the borders in an attempt to keep the terrorists Canada allows into Canada up in Canada.
Your complaint on how this was hurting business with the US as people didn't want to cross over because it took so long.
Can't have it both ways, so where is YOUR intellectual honesty in this? Should we tighten the boarder MORE because it is our fault if someone comes through or should your country develop standards that STOP terrorists from coming into Canada in the first place? If there is a terrorist allowed into Canada, and them comes down across the boarder it IS YOUR FAULT.

And as for a few American COMPANIES taking over the industry, this is a result of the Iraq war how? This is a result of GWB and his policies how? Bush enacted what policy that allowed US companies to take BUY the lumber rights (not take). Who did they buy the lumber rights from? Maybe if Canadians paid half as much attention to politics in their own country they wouldn't complain that a company bought lumber rights instead of complaining that their government SOLD the lumber rights.

Take your problem back to your own back yard, because it isn't the US government that sold the rights to the lumber and put your friends out of work, but the CANADIAN government.

And as for your CLAIM that the lowering of prices against your beaten economy, this is all something that happened in the last year? No, it is a problem that has NOTHING at all to do with IRAQ.

Is everyone going to benifit from trade agreements? No, we lose our a$$'s to Mexico everytime. It makes people be more competitive or go out of business. The internet also played a big part in this.

As you said about the packing plant that closed up "a few years ago", again NOT a result of anything going on in IRAQ.

It seems that even thouh you didn't make any assumptions or share any conclusions in your original post, people WANTED to see a motive, people WANTED to discuss/argue these points about the war still (you were in the other political rant offs you know where THIS goes....nowhere).

But whether it was your intent or not, people MADE it your intent and now this is areally boring Iraq war discussion again and has the same age old arguments that have all been factually proven otherwise before.

I thought, oh no, here we go again. The 'Saviong our babies' speeches, the 'Anti-bush=terrorist' speeches etc.

But then to see anold friend popin with the HOW DOES THIS EFFECT YOUR and IT'S NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS crap was just too backwards for me!

My God, I can't believe people STILL have the same opinions as were shared when none of this information was available. Hasn't anyone avctually followed the war since it began? Hasn't anyone watched all the untruths and false info being uncovered over the last couple of years?

We've had the, 'you wouldn't understand terrorism on your own soil' BS, we even had the 'our torturing them, is okay if they are toruring us' BS.

Where are the 'HE has WMD and is going to attack comments this time?' Had a few SAVING OUR LIVES FROM THE TERROR comments, which still crack me up, but for te most part, you've started another one. Hardly as factual and proof ridden as past political discussions though.

I think the quality of point by point, proof and fact has been lost these days on TR.

Oh well, I don't think this one will break 2K though, but way to plant a seed and make it grow without watering it!! :)

If a terrorist exist in Iraq and YOU let them into America through American customs, is it Iraq's fault for letting them into your country? NO!

IF...and that's IF, a terrorist was to obtain route to America from Canada,it is 100% YOUR issue as YOU let them in.

You complain that they can enter our country but isn't YOUR border security allowing them free passage to YOUR country?

If you welcome someone into your home and they hurt you, is it the fault of the persons mother that they were allowed into your home?

We don't send people to the USA, you ALLOW them to enter your country. SO who REALLY has the weaker entry guidelines? Us for letting them into Canada or YOU for letting them into the USA?

Either way they have to make it past OUR borders AND YOUR border security too, so why is OUR border secuirty the one blamed and not your own? Do you have the theory that anyone coming to the USA from Canada MUST be okay because Canada let them in and already checked them for validity or are YOU supposed to do that at your own entry points?

It's not OUR fault if YOU let terrorist enter YOUR country. Again, that's like blaming Iraq for letting terrorists enter your country, or Afghanistan for 'letting' hijackers fly planes into your buildings after they have passed through US security checks.

It was YOUR security that was breached and THAT's where the terrorists gained access to YOUR country.

As for Canadians visiting your country, I have made no such comments that it is too hard to enter the US, just that nobody can be bothered to because of increased security that is harming bordering businesses. This also has nothing to do with letting terrorists into your country.

I've NEVER suggested reducing security, but the people at the borders have no idea what they should or shouldn't be focusing on, they have no data to refer to, they have no set of valid rules that will help, they just use more discretion.

I couldn't care less if it takes an hour to cross to the USA I don't physically work in the US that much anymore, it's YOUR businesses that suffer from YOUR security, not ours.

Not too many Americans looking to shop this side of the border, that I've ever seen.

As long as I get across in time for concerts I have no problems. But it ISN'T our security weakness, it's your own that PERMITS the entry of people into your country.

You can't peg these people at the border yourselves, yet you claim that we have weak security that lets them in our country. So what is it when YOUR security allows them entry to YOUR country? Trust in Canadian security? How about watching for terrorists yourselves instead of expecting everyone else to keep your borders safe?

If Canadian border patrols started to dictate who should and shouldn't be allowed to enter the US how would YOU feel? Not too happy I'd think.

Where's MY honesty?

I have stated that US businesses ae being crushed by a loss of Canadian shoppers due to increased security at the border. FACT

I have stated that terrorists enter the US through US Customs, not Canadian customs. FACT.

YOU had the issue with the bad guys, supposedly, entering your country, not I. It has also been proven that terrorists were NOT allowed to enter the US by Canadian border patrols. FACT.

Your argument is a non issue. It doesn't exist because we DON'T allow people into our country. FACT.

I have [b]NOT[/b] said security at YOUR borders should be tighter, I have also not said that security at your borders should be more lax. FACT.

I [b]HAVE[/b] said that the increased security has had a detrimental effect on cross border shoppers, which is simply undeniable. FACT.

I [b]HAVE[/b] said that this is not a Canadian issue as you all like to point fingers at other countries when you have these problems.

YOU are 100% in control of your borders, not us, okay? FACT.

As far as lumber, I never at ANY time suggested it was due to the Iraq war, those are YOUR words not mine. FACT.

My point is that when YOUR economy crumbles, we pay the price too. Lower prices for our imports to your country drives Canadians out of business, and creates opportunities for US corporations to take over the resources due to lack of competition. FACT.

As for OUR government,Canadians DO complain aboutthe government bending over for the US government on a daily basis. In fact, this is one of the largest issues Canadians have against the government here. FACT.

Your insinuations are way off on that one, it's one of our biggest political issues.

The problem is, they bend over due to increasing US demands for Canadian resources. FACT.

The price is lowered, companies are put out of business and the US companies take over. FACT.

Our government IS to blame for this, YOUR government is the catalyst that fuels it though with increased demands and lower prices paid. FACT.

Much like the WalMart farce (another reason many Canadians don't allow WalMarts to open in thier towns).
It's bad business, it's unethical business and in many cases thier business practice is illegal in Canada as outlined by Canadian Employment Standards. I've sat in on wuite a few WalMart cases in Canada (my brother is a coporate attorney and has represented some businesses fighting against WalMart), as well as other US corporations suits when they feel they can operate a business in Canada under the same guidelines as they do in the USA. Sitting in the courtroom when the dirty laundry is aired sure reveals the true motive of these corporations.

A recent experience had a company ask me to help them expand into Canada, after reviewing the pay plan I mentioned to them that it was illegal to operate that way in Canada. They packed up ad moved back to Washington shortly after. They will do what they want until they are shown that OUR country doesn't allow business to operate that way.

Now just to reiterate, I never mentioned ANYTHING about business takeover here over the last few years being a result of the Iraq war, read again.

I said that YOUR crumbling economy places an immense pressure on our own economy and livelihoods. As YOUR companies strive to meet demands at lower prices, due to a crumbling economy, OUR companies take a hit.

When YOUR president haphazardly goes and spends half a TRILLION dollars (of YOUR money) on an unjustified war that nobody supported, YOUR economy is adversly effected, and in turn so is ours.

The demands for lower prices and greater volume will increase, thus placing Canadian businesses into a position where they can no longer afford to operate and meet YOUR standards.

There are LONG term effects for these things, not just the short term, immediate impacts.

Unfortunately, your president seemed to give little attention to allied relations and foreign affairs before taking matters into his own hands and invading another country.

Yet you expect nothing but concern, support and courtesy towards your own affairs.

the 9/11 guys were living in various places in the USA at the time of the attacks, most on student visas. And those, I think there were 19, not 7.

I'm talking about 7 guys they have captured coming across with explosives and incindiary devices, including the guy planning to blow up LAX named Ressam.

Even the Canadian government admits they have an immigration problem and that their law is too lax.

I'll dig up info and find out where the 19 came to the United States from originally. I know one lived in Hamburg for the longest, but I am not sure how the others got into the USA before being here.

Apparently, the U.S. has been catching terrorists coming in from Canada for years now. Seems as tho there are about 20 reports so far of people know to be tied directly to Al-Qaeda living in Canada and being caught travelling into the USA between 1995 and 2003.

And BTW...I'm not saying the USA doesn't miss catching terrorists, because you can't catch/know all of them. But you don't see CBC news reports about Canadian officials catching them coming into Canada from the United States. Basically it's because of your immigration policies and regulations.

That's okay, though. I'm coming to visit my buddy Angus in Quebec anyways. Any terrorist pulls a box cutter on me, he better be fast and strong or I'll make it a permanent part of his duodenum.

Sorry though...none of that watered down Molson for me :)

If I ever move to Ireland (which is a possibility in about 2 years), I'll put in a good word for ya so you can sell albums over there in the shoppes ;)

You started out talking about America...then switched to we...thought you'd gone looney and become a Bush fan.

My bad. ;)

Had a problem with the first party thing there.

they didn't prove they didn't immigrate from Canada to the USA, but only that they didn't come right from Canada to hi-jack the planes as was first reported.

Several were students here, but I haven't found the documentation yet telling how they got here. It will be on file somewhere and public information. But, I will find it...just need the time.

Why would terrorists enter Canada from the USA? To blow up GM Place? We aren't claiming to be the leaders of teh free world, we don't flex our muscles and wave our flags in thier faces. The only time these countries hear from Canada is when we are providing aid and support to their people. We aren't a target of terrosism, yet.

BUT, we DO see how Canadian customs has stopped terrorists ENTERING Canada, we do see how our UK allies have worked WITH Canadian security to thwart terrorists from entering our country.

You only see th efew that actually do get throuhg the cracks.

The problem is, Canada has been a part of the British Commonwealth for many years, as hs half of theworld really. We accept free passage of fellow commonwealth residents with little more than a passport needed. Our immigration problems have been with allowing a huge influx of immigrants from commonwealth countries to enter and take up residence in Canada with little restriction. Terrorist entry is not the main issue here.

Unlike the USA, we have a much tighter lin with our allies as commonwealth nations and the human rights afforded to citizens of the commonwealth are a major factor in restricting thier entry.

Eg> With my UK passport, I can pretty much go where I like, when I like and stay as long as I like.

With a US passport, I have very few rights of entry into other country's, or continents. Without a working visa, travel visa etc.

With my passport, I can just hop on plane and go.

In fact it cites right in the cover:

"Her Majesty's Secretary of State;
Requests and requires in the Name of Her Majesty,
all those whom it may concern to allow the bearer to PASS FREELY WITHOUT LET OR HINDERANCE, and to afford the bearer such assistance and protection as may be neccessary."

Now if YOU had such a FREE PASSAGE and were restricted from entering a country, you would be rioting at the White House for the president to do something about other countries restricting your right of entry.

Now, picture yourself being a Canadian and having a long history of flawless relations with the UK and an unspoken bond between your nations. A man with a Turban and a UK assport wants to enter your country, it is illegal to restrict access unless for some really big reason, he has a British accent and speaks very eloquently to you while holding ALL neccessary documentation that shows he has free passage to your country.

HOW DO YOU DENY PASSAGE?

HOW DO YOU RETAIN HIM UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY?

WHAT TIPS YOU OFF THAT THIS PERSON SHOULD NOT PASS INTO YOUR COUNTRY?

Unless you have the guys photo on the wall with a DO NOT ENTER sign, you are infringing on people's rights.

The questions you SHOULD ask are.
"We are NOT a common wealth country, why do WE let these peopleacross without proper questioning? "

"Why do WE accept valid and legal government identification?"

I am not Canadian, I hold a British passport, why would I be allowed to enter the US and not my muslim friend?

I have some really funky immigration ID now though, that must cost a bundle to create, so the Canadian government has taken some very good steps at validating people's immigration status. I cannot reenter Canada without it, if I leave the country.

How about you guys?

There is no point.

YOU allowed terrorists to pass from Canada to the USA?

What point is THAT to seek out?

Dan, if they had all BEEN Candians that terrorized you, it still shows a weakness in YOUR borders andnot ours. For an update, Canadian immigration has come down VERY hard with all kinds of security checks. It took 6 months and several hundred dollars WITH paperwork and valid documentation after living here as a permanent resident from nearly 20 years, for me to get my OWN immigration status updated.

You cannot enter Canada as a Landed immigrant without a PR card now, If you have been an immigrant or permanent resident here for 50 years and you leave, you will not get back in without the new PR card.

Last time I flew to teh USA, December, I didn't even get asked for any immigration papers, I showed them a British passport and that's it.

When I drive across I am asked if I am Canadian, these days I say no, but I used to say yes. Either way, I am allowed to drive across without even being asked if I have landed status, PR status, what country I am ACTUALLY from or anything.

They look at you and say "Canadian?"
"Yes"
"What's your purpose for ebtering the USA today?"
"Shopping, Gas, music"
"Alright, have a great day then"

This is YOUR border security.

When I renter Canada through the same border, I am asked for a PR card (major documentation), how long I was in the USA, what I am bringing back and then still get waved over randomly for a further search and a deeper check into my ID.

I'd say the border crossign issueis yours, not our at all.

It's harder for me to return to Canada than to enter the USA.

I've let my conservative party membership lapse here, mainly because of the personal liberties issues - I don't care which sex someone has sex with - as long as its two consenting adults, go at it, and if you want to marry, go for it.

I don't think you can "betray" a political party by sticking to your ideals. I think political parties change and shift, and I have found myself as a member of a party that no longer supports the views that I joined the party to support.

Pork barrelling, inopportune tax cuts and war mongering are not specific to individual parties. Dems and Republicans there, as well as Liberals and Conservatives here, are all guilty of selling out principle to gain and keep power.

On tax cuts, I think we pay too much tax, but I am inclined to pay off a good part of long term debt before I initiate tax cuts. I don't believe in the voodoo economics of tax cuts creating greater wealth - reaganomics.

I have military in my family, and my wife's family and they all abhor war. My father in law, an arch conservative and retired Colonel, was very much against the Iraq war, and most of his retired military friends from the US, Britain, Germany and Canada agreed.

James

I manage European bands. The first band I ever got involved with is from Ireland.

I sell CD's all over Europe, Japan, Norh and South America.

Ireland and th eUK, is my biggest market, with Sweden Germany and Japan a close second.

South America sells better than the US, because of the differences in the industry. Plus money I earn IN England stays in England (and is worth a lot more and taxed less for not coming into Canada), US income is scraped away at untli I finally get a trickle back to Canada.

the US market for me is just another source of income padding, it pays US artists but they make more on overseas sales.

You are so easy to piss off and very predictable. Again you have read into my comments. I know what the canadian forces are doing there (remember I have friends there I talk to everyday). I should have said canadian people when I said I don't care if they support us.

The only thing you know about the war in Iraq is what you read in papers and hear on the news. I get to hear it from the soldiers on the ground. No editing, no sugar coating, the straight FACTS.

But don't ask me, ask Tom Ridge, or Attourney General Ashcroft, or read the report of the 9/11 commission.

http://msgboard.snopes.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=67;t=001603;p=1
http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/World/2005/04/20/1005773-cp.html
http://www.canadianembassy.org/ambassador/050419-en.asp

None of the 19 terrorists involved in 9/11 either lived in Canada or went through Canada to get to the US. Zero. Nada. None.

James

The air outr hereis about as fresh as it gets, certainly there is pollution, but a hardly a dent on what I've seen in TO or Montreal.

Is it because our Wahington neighbours are clearner?

Is it because the West Coast has been protected somewhat by California's clean air act?

Is it because we have an ocean and mroe trees?

I dunno, but it sure is beautiful out today, not smog in sight.

Even when in Vancouver, it is very minimal compared to other cities.

But I still smoke, and that's just got to stop!

Firstly, if you think I'm pisse doff, you have a lot to lean about me, I couldn't give a damn what you think, why would I be pissed off?

I get frustrated reading the same BS a year after it was all aired and ironed out with facts.

As for soldiers in Iraq, fist of all, you know absolutely NOTHING about me or who I know where and especially how or where I get my information.
Yet you assume you have beter knowledge than others, THAT's just ignorant.

You get what a few soldiers say, whether they are in active combat in dangerously volitile areas or not. I read the letters and see soldiers interviews too, funny thing is half of them see it one way, the other half see it differently. So that's again just a matter of opinion, and one that is biased with positive pro-war reinforcement daily to increase morale.

I also watch Middle Eastern news and ASIAN news reports on the war, Canadian and British reports as well as the heaps of US reports.

So rather than form my opinion based on the words of a few, who may or may not be seeing all sides, without listening to those who are dead confident that this is going to work, and is working, without having the military pump up the morale of my sources, I see conflicting stories from all over the world and look for the common ground beneath the spins.

It's always there, sometimes hard to find but the truth underlies many reports.

Obviously you don't have any friends that are the rest of the soldiers returning to say they would never vote Republican again, they don't belive in the war in Iraq, they can't see and end to ther comrades deathpn a daily basis.

How many hours have you spent sifting through the heaps of repots from the various US embassy's reporting to the US Congress on the White House Website?

Try looking around a bit instead of just down the tunnel of hope.

As for being easy, nice try, but you have a LONG way to go before I get pissed off.

There's a fine line between assertive and aggressive.

There's a fine line between flustered with the same old rhetorical BS and being pissed off at someone. You just can't seem to determine the differences.

When I am assertive and support a point, you say I am telling someone what to do and not accepting their right to free speech.

When I take a persons comments and reiterate them one by one with counter points and opinions, you say I am looking too deep into the issue?

You've got so much to learn here.

is that the McCartneys announced that the IRA had made this offer to them and they had turned it down, not the IRA. They would prefer to actually see justice served and the IRA would prefer to kill their own than hand them in. This was on the 10 oclock news awhile ago.

That's the thing, they still haven't gone away and they still hold a lot of control.

Do you even comprehend them? Where are you getting this information? For years, since before 9/11, the only way you can immigrate to Canada is to be either sponsored by a close relative (25% of immigrants)or be in the skilled labour/entrepreneurial class(60% of immigrants to Canda). There are temporary visas for students, care givers, long term tourists etc.

The numbers I have for the year 2001 state that
Canada had 250,000 permanent residents versus the US's 1.06 Millions, that the US had 420,000 illegal Immigrants, that on a per capita basis, the US had more temporary workers and about the same number of students. Canada had more refugees per capita (27,000 in Canada versus 66,000 in US). Canda accepted 57% of refugee claims in 2001 and the US accepted 53%.

By the way these numbers come from the CD Howe Institute, a conservative think tank in Canada.

I do know that Rassam came through Vancouver. As for the Khadrs were you aware they left Canada for Pakistan in the late 80s. They only returned now(the wife and son) because the son was wounded - and there are court proceedings to throw them out.

But you had 19 bombers get in from Germany and you think Canada is causing a problem?

You have hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of illegals come up through Mexico, and you think Canada is the source of your border problems?

James

HIS family insists that the IRA had nothing to do with it.

There is still SOME unsettlement, the IRA is SUSPECTED of its involvement in December's ?26.5m Northern Bank raid.

But this doesn't equate ot when I was hoe and watched them set off a bomb in Hyde park killing innocent citizens, the horses of the Queens guard on parade at a concert in the park.

When I was younger, my mother got off a train in London about 4 minutes before a bom bwent off killing citizens.

When the 'Good Friday' agreement was signed, it set up a power-sharing executive, with ministerial posts distributed by party strength, and elected assembly.

The deal was backed by voters in referendums in Northern Ireland and the Republic, which scrapped its constitutional claim to the north.

This CLAIM is the root of the warfare.

The after effects and minimal violence shown by the IRA has been isolated and is reprehensile by the Northern Irish. The IRA does not support or condone this activity and have been more than helpful in stopping these few offenders who act under the guise of the IRA.

I know you are but what am I?

We didn't do anything worng, YOU did.

etc.

I get to hear FIRST hand reports of what is going on down there. The last thing they talk about is policitics. You know why? Because it does not matter what party in in the white house, the would still be there fighting. I know soldiers who have ETS out of the Army and are joining again to help the fight.

We are talking about US SOLDIERS.

BTW, when you say "I have alot to learn" when you talk about me posting on these forms is that some kind of brainwash BS or are you just try to step on my rights of free speach.

You are boring me with the regurgitate BS you read and hear. Do you have your onw opinion?

Not impressed by Oz.

Oz, have a look

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/4542631.stm

Has the BBC got it wrong?

What skills would they walk away with after 15 months? Rifleman?

Kinda my point in posting it. The Army would appear to be getting nervous. The article says that the Navy and Air Force are not affected.

Both of your last two titles are comments from my posts to you. Try a little creativity.

You completely missed the point about "US SODLIERS", my point was that THEY HAVE to have a positive outlook, troop morale and positive reinforcement is drummed into all military personelle on a regular basis.

My point was that solders, sorry, US SODLDIERS also return sayign how it is all garbage, they would never vote for Bush again (after growing up as die hard Republicans) would never want to fight in such a retarded war again etc.

Once again, you DO get first hand information, the people offering that information are pumped up to build morale of COURSE you only hear the positive side from THEIR viewpoints.

YOU are simply ignoring all of the OTHERS that return and are admantly against it. OTHERS that are interviewed in the field who describe terrible situations and conditions they are subject to. DO you just plug your ears and hum when these reports, letters and interviews are shown?

THey complain about lack of proper pay, while risking thier lives to ensure safety to Haliburton workers who are paid QUARDOUPLE what THEY are paid to provide services within the compounds.

The letters home where soldiers are begging parents and family members to send them body armour and supplies that the US os not providing them with.

It's not all happy families, no matter who's letters you choose to read, you are seeing a PART of the picture, one that is VERY biased toward victory and success, just as they should and are expected to be.

I haven't said ANTHING about your right to free speech, that's YOUR hook everytime you spew some more crap.

The point is, opinion only counts as far as facts are concerned.

If you offer an opinion and I show alternative FACTS to counter it, I am hardly squashing you right to free speech.

Also you may need to better understand how that right is actually extended. It DOESN'T mean you can say whatever you want, whenever you want,to whomever you want, as many people seem to believe.

Nobody is trying to squash your freedom of expression or speech, I am just offering counterpoints to your own. Ever heard of debate before you stumbled on TR, or is this new to you?

Point is, if YOU make an assertion and it is not backed by fact, I am well within my rights to show an alternative assertion and support it with my sources, which you claim is hindering your free speech, I'd love to see that hold up in a courtroom.

As for learning how it's done. When I first came to TR I offered personal opinions based on conclusions I had reached from watching and reading news.

NONE of this was acceptable by Republican TR peers, these political forums need to be supported by facts and links to sources and itemized in order to hold any credibility on TR. People here, far more politicaly aware than you or I, will produce facts to suport thier claims, I have learned to do the same as a result of conversing with them for several years on just these issues.

This 'he said, she said' crap, isn't worth the keystrokes. Opinions don't mean squat in this case, fact is everything.

But if you want to write fairy stories, perhaps a childrens book publisher may be a better idea than in a forum where fact or fiction is the key issue.

Your personal opinion means nothing here.

A statement needs to be supported by reliable fact (not just letters from friends or a lefty or righty news report or newspaper).

Pull some supporting facts from The White House, from the US Embassy reports or something, "my friends say it's all peaches and cream" is hardly proof of anything but an opinion, and we all know what they say about opinions.

Thats the exact same source I just pulled my last post from.

hard headed. I get to TALK to soldiers everyday. They come on to forums I go to, sorry only for Active Duty and Veterans. I get to hear from Officers, Senior NCOs and lower enlisted and they say NOTHING about politics. You get my point!!!!!! Who do you hear from? Fresh recruits right out of basic who joined for the money??

Oz, you are spitting the same crap over and over again. You keep reading the letter to get you "information" and I will hear it from the soldier in a conversation. You seem to think I know nothing about what in going on in Iraq. I know they are unhappy, I know they are scared, but I also know the are proud to serve the military. Yes, there are the vocal minority you hear from that always bring politics into it. The last thing on a soldiers mind is politics.

Keep pumping your half truths out for the kiddies.

Get in the real world and talk to a soldier ONE on ONE.

You still continue to try and tell me how I should post. I will not be brainwashed!! I don't care how you were trained to post here, you have a weak mind and were not able to stand up to them.