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Do you think what the USA did is scriptural...or biblical...

Whould you be glad what happen if you were living in IRAQ....

Cheers...dstatic...

26 replies

by oz_media

Scriptural as in: of or pertaining to or contained in or in accordance with the Bible; "biblical names"; "biblical Hebrew"

or Scriptural as in: written or relating to writing

So is this your question,
"Do you think what the USA did is pertaining to or contained in or in accordance with the Bible...or biblical?"

Speaking as a NON-American, I see what BUSH did was an attempt to impress fear and then repress it's agressor.

Iraqi's think it's a biblical/political war I'm sure.

If I were an Iraqi, I would welcome the removal of Saddam, I would not welcome the occupation by Americans. Yes, there was an alternative.

by oz_media

Well lets see...
If the USA had waited, they would have allies.

Allied forces did not want to attack Iraq based on THEORETICAL WMD.

There was no doubt, that I've read, from ANY country as to whether or not Saddam needed to be removed from power and his rehime toppled.

You were poorly prepared, unsupported and now what, Americans are STILL dying (but the war's over so you don't need to pay your solders as much), this war will probably NEVER end. YOU have single handely opened the biggest can of worms on the planet, terrorism was already pointed at America, now it is completely focused on America. So, unless you intend permanent occupation of Iraq, there will be a new generation of Anti-American terrorists, then another, then another. Do you really expect Iraqi terrorists to forget once you've pulled out? You never forget YOUR history, those who helped you and those who didn't. What makes you feel Iraqi's will?

You are doomed for MANY MANY centuries to come, America has stood alone in the crowd and flexed her muscles while waiving her flag and killing Iraqi's. That'll be forgotten when, next month?

Iraqi's didn't see a Canadian, German, French, African or Autralian flag. They probably didn't even notice the British flag behind yours.

You waved your colors, YOU will pay. AGAIN!

by john_wills

First, the U.S. should not sell weapons to undemocratic states. Ten years of this policy turned all America except Haiti and Cuba into democracies, and the extension of the policy to the world would have similar, if less spectacular, effects.
Second, when the U.S. conquers a despotism it should hold elections promptly. Sometimes this may be delayed, as in Afghanistan, by the lack of administrative machinery, but Iraq was a pseudodemocracy and could have had real elections in 6 weeks. There is no need to develop a new constitution: use the old one with the undemocratic parts changed or deleted by conqueror's ukase; then let the democratically elected parliament decide whether further changes are appropriate.

by alex555

Being an Arab, I totally am glad by the removal of Saddam and I belive that most Iraqis were as well, but like you said, it shouldn't be replaced by the occupation of American's.
Another thing is that the way things happened was like a movie, I believed everthing was planned ahead of time and that they know exactly where Saddam is.
Just like we know that Bush didn't do what he did for fear of weapons of mass destruction, because as we know now, both Bush and Blair knew that Saddam does not have such weapons. Doesn't this seem funny how Bush also knew about Sept. 11 before it happened, but never did anything about it? Or the fact that all these "terrorists" (the most wanted), where previous agents, or U.S. trained soldiers? Not many people now his, but Bin Laden was trained by the U.S. and so was Saddam, and they are the ones that made them what they are now.

by oz_media

"Not many people now his, but Bin Laden was trained by the U.S. and so was Saddam, and they are the ones that made them what they are now."

I think that's common knowledge, even to Americans. It was in their benefit at that time, as usual there is no looking foraward, just what can we get now. Later, these decisions come back and bite them in the ass but that just gives them a reason to attack and kill a few more American soldiers.

I can only apologize for my neighbors and their insecurities that cause them to fight for fear whenever possible. That border may be close but the countries are miles apart in their thinking. If the Canadian government thought the way the American government did, we'd never be at peace and would constantly be at war like they are.

It is really nice to live in a peaceful country without the fear of attack, my family and friends are safe and happy and we can al enjoy out day without wondering how many friends just lost their sons or daughters and if we are going to be terrorised at any time. Many Canadians don't even know about Cretien leaving us as Prime Minister, they somply DON'T CARE and DON'T want to hear it.

I just hope that Americans realize that this war will probably NEVER be over, they will always be targeted, especially now that they've pushed the line. They can never relax in peace, they can't sleep without fear. No matter HOW many terrorists they kill, there will always be another to take over. In a way it's nice, it takes the attention of the other countries.

OM

by jardinier

Unfortunately these political discussions are dominated by Americans, with some input also from Canada, the UK and Australia. I implore TechRepublic members from other countries to express their views.

I would agree with OzMentalCase that the invasion of Iraq has done nothing to decrease terrorism, but quite the contrary. I would also agree that from the point of view of Muslims, extremist or moderate, the perceived enemy is Zionism, not Western Society. The State of Israel can only exist through massive financial and military aid from the USA.
It is not for the masses to know why the invasion of Iraq occurred in the first place. It has backfired so badly that I presume the strategy was based on false assumptions.

America is not a Christian country. It has always, to my way of thinking, been based on a desire to achieve increased wealth and power, both for the individual and the nation.

There are many good things which America has done, but I doubt that anyone would try and deny that the USA has continually meddled in the political affairs of other nations. Quite likely the suicide missions of September 11, 2001, were intended as a message to the USA to stay out of the affairs of other countries.

The mighty Roman Empire started to collapse because one ill advised, illicitly appointed power hungry emperor demanded more of the subjected nations than they were physically able to provide.

I am sure the debacle of the invasion of Iraq will diminish any trust and respect which other nations may have held for the USA. It may well prove the catalyst which will unseat America from its current position as the world's greatest economic and military power.

This will be a pity as, the nation which takes such pride in its stance for freedom and democracy, may be replaced with a less idealistic and more authoritatian allegiance of nations.

by john_wills

"America is not a Christian country". But Osama bin Laden obviously thinks it is. The people of, say, Pakistan, are not all good Muslims: they murder, fornicate and steal. Nevertheless we call Pakistan a Muslim country. The Israelis live by dispossession of the Palestinians, contrary to the Law of God as they understand it; they abort their children; they have gays in parliament. Still, we call Israeli society Jewish. When UTJ complains that the society is not Jewish, it means that the society does not conform to the Jewish ideal; still, it has that ideal rather than another. Similarly Pakistan has the Muslim ideal, and the United States has the Christian ideal, but is far from that ideal. There is something similar with persons: every Christian knows he should show up at church on Sunday, but he does not cease to be a Christian by spending the morning in bed instead, nor by cheating on his income tax, nor by adultery. So it is with societies.

by oz_media

"but he does not cease to be a Christian by spending the morning in bed instead, nor by cheating on his income tax, nor by adultery."

by jardinier

I don't think you would find too many Australians asserting that Australia is a Christian country, just because Christianity has the largest number of followers. Australia is predominantly an agnostic country, and no doubt viewed by Muslims as a lackey of the USA, rather than as a Christian country.

In Australia, Christians and non-Christians alike do not delude themselves that this is a Christian Country. Church attendances continue to fall rapidly, despite the burgeoning population caused by immigration.

Perhaps you would care to ask Anglican Archbishop of Sydney, Peter Jenson, why he set a goal of achieving 10 per cent of those living in the area covered by the Sydney diocese, becoming committed members of the church by the year 2010.

by patton_michael

You are jumping to conclusion. You dont know the future or all the facts. Neither do I. So your conclusion can be wrong.

by jardinier

Sure, I can't see the future, but sure as hell I can see the present. The situation in Iraq is daily deteriorating, and the invasion of that country is quite obviously NOT producing the envisaged outcome.

The US administration can extend the time-frame as much as it likes, but without assistance from other countries which voted AGAINST the invasion, the USA sure has a daunting task ahead of itself to produce a stable government made up of Iraqis, and not Americans.

by maxwell edison

The intentions are indeed to establish a government made up of Iraqi people, not Americans.

Moreover, I don't think that the "situation in Iraq is daily deteriorating". Although there are "bumps in the road", so to speak, I think that things are going as well as could be expected.

Do you not agree that this whole effort is years too late?

by oz_media

I'm not your BABE I'm not on drugs. Ok? One more time, I'm NOT your babe, I don't do drugs. OK?

Now, perhaps you can actually come up with something creative, feel free to shoot down my every word, it shows your inability to communicate, just come up with something new because you're getting really boring.

As for the threat, perhaps you should notify Homeland Security, then I could be screwed over and sent to a Syrian jail like Maher Arar too!

Or wasn't that covered in the American news.

by merchantbanker

Yikes ....

Well now Oz old bean, usually I mark you down as a barking lunatic of a poster, but I have to admit you've definately got the measure of events this time !

Well done.

It's a true disgrace what is happening in Iraq if you ask me. Even Rumsfeld (is that right?) is now calling it an 'occupation' and a 'war'. A bit of a change of tack there from the 'liberation' speeches I think.

Many Americans like to boast 'We will never forget' but guess what ... other people 'never forget' either. As we Brits found out in Ireland ... 25 years of troops settled nothing, and in the end you have to get round a table and talk. No money in that though eh ?

I'm with Oz on this one.

MB.

by jimhm

Why don't you ask an Iraqie who was a citizen under Saddam, Uday and USay - rules and the Bath party...

Why ask people that aren't there - and only have basis and opinions ...

Let history tell the final story ...

by jardinier

I have watched telecasts from various parts of Iraq throughout the war. When the allied troops first entered Baghdad, there were many Iraqis shown as saying: "Thank you Mr Bush." Within a couple of days, the more common message was "Yankee go home."

Yes, there was a temporary state of euphoria when it first appeared that the dictator had been killed or eliminated. But there has been increasing confusion in the land, with some depictions of how Iraqis are enjoying freedoms which they had not know for many years, with others bitterly opposing the occupation forces.

The sabotage of oil pipelines has meant that, for the time being, Iraq is actually having to import oil, rather than enabling the occupying force to use Iraqi oil revenue to rebuild the country.

Perhaps you didn't do too well at arithmetic at school, but you should at least have noted that a greater number of US troops have died since the official declaration of the end of the major phase of the war (on May 1) than during the initial invasion. While a regularly body count of US military personnel is reported, who bothers to report how many Iraqis have been, and are still being killed in a country that has no cohesive rule.

So I don't need to ask an Iraqi, Jim: I have seen more than enough of them express their opinions in front of television cameras.

I fail to see how anyone can say that the outcome of the invasion was as favourable as expected.

by maxwell edison

.
...President Bush made was the early declaration to the end of "major" combat operations.

I certainly know what he meant, as the surgical air strikes ended, major combat operations were completed, the Iraqi army was contained, and so forth. But he knew it would be a long and drawn out process; he knew there would be hit-and-run attacks; he knew there would be terrorist attacks. He certainly didn't do himself (or the war effort itself, because of the political hay others could make of it) any favors by making such a formal declaration.

I would have preferred different wording - a different message. Something like this:

"We are entering perhaps the most dangerous phase of our efforts to liberate Iraq from the clutches of the ruthless dictator Saddam Hussein and to establish the seeds of freedom for the Iraqi people. We have a long and difficult task in front of us, and there are many unknowns. There will be many obstacles, and there will be more sacrifices. But our cause is just, and our efforts are noble, and we are up to the difficult task at hand. Again, I welcome the leaders of those nations who initially opposed this undertaking to join us in the efforts to return Iraq to the Iraqi people. The results will not only benefit the good people of Iraq, but the world community as well........."

But on the other hand, it doesn't change what still needs to be done or the fact that it should have been done in the first place - probably years ago.

by jimhm

Oz - a person clams he was happy that Saddam was tossed out of power - and his sons are Cave temperature... but you go off slamming USA for something else ..

You read like a broken record and maybe should be turned over to the CBI and FBI for investigation ...

by oz_media

You obviously read one line of a post then form soe retarded opinion. Where do you get off calling yourself human? You claim I'm on drugs and should be reported but you don't have the first clue what is being discussed (by two other people, neither of them being JimHM)and jump in with some crap that makes you look as dumb as your counterparts.

Here's an idea, read the post, if you don't understand it, ask someone to explain it to you. You have the comprehension skills of a small child and constantly remind everyone of it by not understanding a post.

As for the FBI and CBI(?) (what's that the Central Bullshit Institute founded by your leader?)I'd be careful, they just may get you a form fitting white coat.

by jardinier

In order to answer yuour question, I would have to possess the gift of prophecy, which I don't. I very much doubt that even history will shed any light onto whether the timing of this event was the most appropriate.

by oz_media

I see that more "bumps in the road" have died SINCE the Iraqi war was declared over than during the initial conflict itself.

by john_wills

"Dirtistan is an X-Religion country" can mean at least 4 things:
1. Most of the people in Dirtistan live most of the time according to the ideals of X-Religion;
2. Most of the people in Dirtistan associate themselves with X-Religion;
3. Adherents of other religions view X-Religion as dominant in Dirtistan;
4. Even among practitioners of no religion or of other religions, social discourse usually assumes the practices and ideals of X-Religion as normative.
As an example of #4 I quote from a sermon I heard some years ago at a branch of Zen Center San Francisco: "All our members are Christians; even our atheists are Christians.". Let this serve also as an example of #3.

by jardinier

just turned in his grave at your absurdly inaccurate generalisation.

China provides a good example of just how wrong your assumptions are. Before the Communist take-over, three religions lived harmoniously together in China: Taosim, Buddhism and Confucianism (the latter being more of a system of ethics than an actual religion). Along came Mao Tse Tung. The official religion of all China was now atheism. As an illustation, most of the Chinese people I know who were raised under the Communist regime, have NO idea of their rich religious heritage.
Therefore, by your logic China is a "what" country?

The ire of Muslim extremists is, I suggest, focused on the non-Christian aspects of the Western lifestyle, [materialism, decadence for example] and on Zionism. I doubt that many Muslims are anti-Christian as such, as they freely acknowledge that both religions are branches from the same tree. The teachings of Muhammed were relevant to a particular peoples lving in a particular environment. Muhammed is regarded as a successor to Jesus, but not a total replacement.

You more than anyone are aware that Palestinians have no particular beef with the Jewish religion, but they do not appreciate having their land stolen by Zionist Jews.

And as for Iraq, it is a secular state so that, although the greater porportion of its inhabitants may be Muslim of one variety or another, it cannot be called a Muslim country.

by jardinier

Sorry to come down so hard on you John because I fully understand your model and think it is quite reasonable. But it would not apply to all countries.

Whilst I have never been to a Muslim country, I get the impression that the religion is more integrated with the general lifestyle than would be the case with most Western (Christian) countries.

As previously mentioned, I don't think it is the perceived religion (Christianity) which causes ire to Muslim extremists, but the general way in which certain countries conduct their international relationships.

I do recall one taperecorded threat which specifically referred to Zionists, with no direct mention of the USA or its allies.

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