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Iraq's "benevolent" liberators

By jardinier ·
Well if I had been subjected to torture and humiliation, I quess I would not feel particularly liberated. One Iraqi prisoner said that, while he had twice been tortured during Hussein's reign, the humiliation of having to be naked was far more hurtful than the torture to which he had been subjected under the dictator.

Of course you all know about the mistreatment of SOME Iraqi prisoners by SOME US military personnel. Why, even the President learned about it from TV, as his Defence Secretary had not deemed it necessary to inform him. In fact, with all the new evidence coming to light it seems obvious that the president is a mere puppet, with Brumsfield and others being the puppet-masters.

The reason I want to throw this issue into an open discussion is that I don't buy the "few bad apples" explanation of these abominable atrocities.

While tossing this around in my mind, the following possible explanations occurred to me:

1. There is something inherently flawed in the process of selecting and training US military personnel;

2. The soldiers, feeling frustrated that they are giving their lives in a lost cause, are using Iraqi prisoners as scapegoats to express their angst.

After M.E. has filled the page with quotes and URLs to discredit everything I have said, perhaps some other TR members will take the discussion seriously and offer other explanations for this behaviour.

Anyhow, my congratulations to the most righteous and noble country on earth for first, earning the scorn and distrust of the entire world, and now attracting the hatred of all the Arabic peoples.

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Not number 2

by Oz_Media In reply to Iraq's "benevolent" liber ...

Well I would say that if this is due to EITHER of your attributed reasons, than I would have to go with number 1.

THe US military is MASSIVE, it's force is not really any more experienced or able than say the UK or Australia for example but the sheer numbers will bring the enemy down, as we saw in WWII, the US effectiveness was due o the sheer numbers of servicemen who were entering a war with an enemy who was pretty much wasted and spread too thin due to the three or four previous years being at war.

The US enetered quite late into the war and had full momentum to help the Allies repress the Nazi troops. THis forced Hitler to regroup and withdraw MANY of his forces in an effort to amalgamate his force on a single objective, Russia.

The US has some very state of the art weaponry, as does it's alies but the 'number' of personnel outweighs any other army to date.

Perhaps due to the masses of citizens the US recruits it has also been deplying people without the proper screening and mental attitude required for such a sensitive operation as this.

Personally, although I think the men and women from all the countries in Iraq have done their best and worked to the best of their ability, they were far from prepared to face this issue and have suffered because of it. I remember hearing people say it would be over in no time, that the US would walk in and walk out after killing all these poor and useless 'so called' terrorist regimes, they were said to be cowardly and weak. Now I know GWB never said anything of the sort himself but the general mentality I have heard and seen is that The World's Best military from The World's Most Powerful country would have a field day of this.

Well I suppose it hasn't been so easy, the invasion was premature and poorly planned, the efforts have been MUCH harder than anyone predicted and the US is suffering because of it, whether economically, socially or physically.

This has draged the US name further down the mud than they have ever been seen before. Most, actually I cannot think of ONE person who didn't, feel negatively about the US before the invasion. This has just further dragged them downhill to become seen as too strong for their own good. It's almost like a madman havnig too much power, people just don't see the US the way they used to and even then it wasn't a great outlook.

Now I don't condem the PEOPLE of the USA but the mentality during this war as well as the arrogance and spite shown when others wouldn't join in the effort was enough to create further disdain for the USA. After these events have been aired, the general concensus around town is "typical, what did you expect from these guys?"

I haven't met anyone yet who feels the US made a good decision or is carrying out the mission effectively. You even mention the US around people here and they roll their eyes and say "whatever".

They had a bad name and have now made it much worse. For a bunch of people who feel everyone wants to be American, they couldn't be more wrong.

The actions of these MP's British and American are so outrageous that I think it will be MANY MANY years before the US gets any respect back from the world's citizens,that is if ever.

The general feeling i have received is that people HATE the US now, they really can't stand it, refuse to shop across the border as we had for so many years before this action. I remember a time when EVERYONE in Vancouver shopped in Bellingham and Seattle, it was fun, cheap, bigger and better.

Most people I know would not even consider crossing the border now, for example, I couldn't even begin to name the number of concerts I saw in Tacoma or The Gorge, it was THE thing to do,everyone would just hop across the border and see a show. Now with such paranoid border control and all the problems in the US, ticket sales for this years OzzFest at The Gorge are mainly US sales, whereas a few years ago it would be close to even Canadian & US ticket sales.

It sucks for the Americans who really are decent people but find themselves living in such a contorversial anddisliked country, for the others, well I guess they got what they deserved, a BAD rap.

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Actually Julian

by maxwell edison In reply to Iraq's "benevolent" liber ...

.
Like minded people as myself are probably the hardest affected by these reports (except, of course, any victims of such treatement). There's nothing about it to defend, and nothing to be proud of. And other than to say that I won't let my emotions cloud my judgement (but I hope that applies to everything), I can't really say much more about it, at least not at this point.

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The real problem here is

by HAL 9000 Moderator In reply to Iraq's "benevolent" liber ...

Not so much that this has happened but that there is now a valid point made that the USA is not at war on Terrorism but at war with Islam and this is a very dangerous thing to happen.

The sad thing here however is that the people who did as they where ordered to do are being hung out to dry but the real culprits will get away Scott Free as it is the "Intelligence Services" who no doubt out of an act of desperation tried to force people to tell them where things like WMD's where even though it now appears that they didn't exist.

What I found most offensive with what has so far been reported was the involvement of women in this as it is a major cultural thing in the Islamic world to be humiliated by a woman and these actions will only make Ben Laden and the splinter groups that sprang up stronger with a greater need to hurt America and its citizens.

Col

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Different Take

by TheChas In reply to Iraq's "benevolent" liber ...

My first take on the pictures that I have seen was (and still is) fraternity / sports team hazing!

In the US, hazing of new recruits and defeated opponents has gotten grossly out of hand.

The images that I have seen do not show humiliation as a means of torture. To me they show humiliation as a form of hazing the defeated opponent.

This is a flaw in the US character that is a direct result of the "God-like" status far to many people give to sports teams and heroes.

Cities and College campuses become scenes of near riots when the team either looses or wins the "big" game.

Each year at our high schools and colleges, the new class of freshmen have to endure escalating taunts and challenges. After all, the sophomores need to "prove" themselves by taking a step up from the treatment they received a year ago.

Perhaps the saddest part of this whole situation to me, is the tone of the response for the Bush Administration.

I know that I hear their words more critically than Max does. But, as I hear Bush and Rumsfeld, they sound more concerned and upset that the images have been made public than they are about the actual mis-treatment itself.

The proof of my concern will be if there is suddenly major restrictions on personal cameras for our soldiers.

Chas

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Plausible ...

by jardinier In reply to Different Take

As usual, you come up with a unique and insightful response. Yes, hazing could be a contributing factor.

Throughout my life I have observed the increasing tendency for a significant proportion of the population (probably most) to look up to pop singers, movie stars and sports heroes as their idols.

These idols play the same role as the Messiah, Jesus. By their sacrifice, hard work and sweat, they achieve goals unattainable by the average person.

What I find especially interesting is that these new "Messiahs" attain fame and fortune without actually producing anything. They provide entertainment, period.

So people look up to the entertainers have who have achieved "everything," but without actually producing "anything."

I think this represents a great spiritual sickness in the human race.

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Had to interject

by dwdino In reply to Plausible ...

A perfect quote came to me as I was once again confounded by your post.

"Truly, you have a dizzying intelect!"

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wasn't that..

by maecuff In reply to Had to interject

from 'The Princess Bride"?

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