Is there a Brink?

The brink in any situation occurs when the parties involved feel they have reached a point where the only options left are action or surrender. It is that put up or shut up point.

Can the brink ever be reached online? Can a poster become so caught up in a position that direct action to resolve a disagreement is the only course? Are posters who stop contributing victims of pushing another over the brink? Is the answer 42?

It is useful as a temporary lifeline in those situations where things have gone catastrophically wrong.

It is destructive when it is a way of life.

Everyone has a limit. That limit (or brink) may be physical, emotional or psychological. Pushing one over the brink can be triggered by events which may not appear rational to another. Physically, I can take any amount of pain normally, but you won't get me in a dentist's chair! Dentists push my 'physical brink'!

I can get quite heated in debates as I'm sure a few of you realise! What pushes MY brink? Having to argue the toss with someone who refuses to see a valid point of view and insists that their point of view is the only correct one. Or someone making an assumption or sweeping statement when in reality, they have not evaluated an arguement from all angles...someone for example who may state 'XP is a piece of crap' when their only experience of XP is a passing look over someones shoulder.

Some things make me more irate than others...like Americans ( or Germans or whoever...) assuming that what they have is better than the rest of the world...or even ignoring that the rest of the world exists. I have an American wife...but I don't like their tax or healthcare system. I love travelling in the USA but I wouldn't be seen dead in an American-made car. German beer is great, but their sense of humour is absent! Everything hasit's pros and cons...and people who can't see beyond the end of their own little existence and accept the fact that most of us have something worthwhile to contribute to the debates....thats what pushes me over!

There is something inherently wrong with the notion of a government taking one person's property (e.g. money) for the sole purpose of giving it to someone else who didn't earn it. Moreover, too many people have come to depend on that as a means of survival. And before anyone starts calling me mean-spirited and heartless, I will say this. I fully support the notion of caring for those who truly cannot care for themselves. (I'll define them later.) It's the free-loaders - whether they are freeloaders by choice or by virtue of brainwashing - that corrupts the system.

More to come......

>>IS there really such a thing as the brink?

Yes ;>

>>Can a situation escalate to such a level that no-one can stop it?

Yes, I believe there many situations no-one can stop, however, most situations can be altered by groups of people.The main difficulty here is often not knowing in the moment where the momentum of escalation has increased to the "brink". Thanks to the linear nature of time, we often claim historical knowledge of when the brink occurred, but there are usually many mitigating factors which lead there, and even with a few changes outside the focus may have led to quite different outcomes.

Welfare, hmmmmmm I like the idea of sharing and caring for each other. I also think that we really are all each others keepers and that the answer isn't really "42" (although I love the humor in asking the wrong questions!) but that we are all living on the back of the same dog and should be watching out for the dogs welfare inseperably as our own.

Of course if youare talking about government welfare programs, well the government screws up pretty much everything and welfare is no exception. The reason our government keeps having to fill this role though, is that we are a selfish, irresponsible and greedy lot overall, willing to allow suffering in our midst and do nothing about it personally. In fact, we usually do the opposite and insulate ourselves from it. Even our religion has become one of "Health and Wealth" theology. If you don't have health and wealth, you must not be right with God. I really think most people don't understand the life and suffering of Christ today when they claim Christianity, and if most people understood it deeply they would run screaming in a different direction. Maybe that is what has happened, as I think about it, we just call the opposite direction from emulating Christ's life and teachings "Christianity" in the west now. No wonder Ghandi said es

The Brink ? interesting question, one simple explanation to why people go over the brink and that is PASSION.

People go over the brink when they are passionate about a topic; say you are discussing Microsoft Pricing. Someone posts a very negative view of Microsoft as being a greedy and money hungry company. That would push some over the Brink that are passionate about MS, and others will join on both sides. It stops only when one or both camps are un-willing to change their minds, or points& counter-points become repetitive and no one is adding anything new to the discussion.

It?s the same for most Techrepublic discussions, (IT people are passionate about things ? passion makes for lively and interesting discussions) substitute the word - governments, freedoms, laws, religion, management style, ethics or morality for ?Microsoft? you will get the same type of debate going and it will stop when either of the parties feels they are beating a dead horse. (nothing more to add to the debate)

For example - I could post that ?Socialized healthcare leads to substandard and non-progressive care lacking technical abilities and research that a free market healthcare system brings to the world, and a free market healthcare system has leading edge technologies and research which provides better healthcare to its consumers? ? someone else would post back that ?Only to those that can afford it.? There is passion on each side of all coins ? and open debate and pushing the brink, shares ideas ? the parties may not agree ? may not accept ? at the end of the debate, they only agree to disagree.

Brink, As I understand the question, my answer would be that the 'brink' is reached when one or more parties to an argument / disagreement will Loose Control. When this happens, action replaces words, and emotions become the controlling factor. Anytime that someone operates their decisions upon emotions, they are opening things up for a world of hurt.

Hey Max, I completely agree with you (at this point) on the welfare issue. I have worked in places where people cannot care for themselvesbecause of physical or mental difficulties. These ones would need some type of financial / professional and medical welfare assistance. At the same time, I have worked with and among others who believe that the government (local, regional, or national) owes them a living. They remind me of the old story of the Grasshopper and the Ant. The grasshopper refused / chose to do any work and would have died, had the ants not helped him. The folks I have seen, also have choosen not to work and thencry to the government system to help them out. There is a verse in the Bible that says, If a man does not work, he does not eat. With other faiths, there are similar points in the writings. Welfare, as in the US, has gone way beyond the point of helping folks who refuse to work, simply because they choose not to work.

Now, as to how far will I defend this? That is the question of where the 'brink' is. For myself, I would not loose control of myself. I would defend my position, but not at the point of going over the brink.

Michael R.

You have an excellent point, many times I've gone too far in my VERBAL attacks on the USA. HOwever, I feel that I am often pushed near to 'the brink' when I am told that if it wan't for the US...(insert anything about life here)we would be sorry.
I am from the Isle of Wight, England originally and moved to Canada for business reasons.
I notice that although I used to be bugged for not pointing my pinky finger while drinking tea and constantly heard the "old chap" comments, Canadians welcomedme and never told me that I should be lucky they saved my ass, (even though Canada played a massive role in WWII).
When I opened my first US office in Oregon, I had many people saying England?, you're lucky, if it wasn't for us, you'd be speaking German (a long way from truth if you really look at the facts).
When I moved to L.A. to open my office there, the 'you're lucky' phenomenon tripled.
I finally started to detest anything American out of the sheer arrogance that was shown to me by theUS public. If it is big, we'll make it bigger, if it can be sold, we'll sell more and even if it is good, we'll make it better....uh...whatever.
I moved back to BC Canada, and run my US offices from here, what do you know, no more arrogance about what a fantastic country Canada is (and it really is). The people here understand that the government, is really F*&&D up. In England, same thing, in Germany, same thing. In the US, where they are under constant threat due to government actions toward other countries, they stand proud of any government no matter how corrupt. It seems to be a way of life, people believe in whatever faith and religions they choose, however, there is only one government and it is the right one that make th eright decisions.
Brainwashed? I don't know. Uneducated, I understand that's getting better now, I attended some schooling in the US and it was a one sided farce at that time.

If you read the post by the Guru again, you will see a mild but negative comment on America, Germany, and who ever. Nothing in there about GB, which I would think is the area where he could offer the most significant insight. I find that interesting, even intriguing.

Your follow up jumped to the conclusion that I was somehow annoyed or offended. Sorry to dissappoint you. So the UK is just as screwed up as USA, you know it, and are trying to fix it? Great! Enlighten this poor old son ofan immigrant on the problems and solutions. After all, this is a world forum, not a US forum.

Besides, it would be a way of helping Americans from "assuming that what they have is better than the rest of the world...or even ignoring that the rest of the world exists."

>It's hard to find decent root beer...Sainsbury's sell some but it's NOT commonplace!

Several years ago, Coca Cola purchased a company named Barqs, which sells the best rootbeer you can find. You might want to check into whether you can get Barq's rootbeer where Coke products are sold.

(By the way, Barq's is located in Biloxi, Mississippi, not too far from where I live. Of course, that has nothing to do with why I like it...)

I don't know how much travelling you have done and it is quite irrelevant, but you will find that this same attitude is shared in many countries, speak your mind, it doesn't matter because it is your mind. Other people don't take offense, based on the same set of ideals. This may also be why you find that in other countries you have found them arrogant, they are simply mirroring what they have been shown or led to believe Americans are, not that they are reacting to your opinion it is just that your opinion is constantly thrown at them from every angle when politics come up. I know when I visit other countries they are humble, welcoming and kind, they have a chip on their shoulders when it comes to America though and are ready to defendtheir opinions because they are constantly shot down for being self opinionated. I think it was the whole "we won the war" thing that has so many Allied countries looking down their noses at the US.
Don't keep feeding the fire, the US has some assets, England has helped the US Military efforts tremendously, Canada has helped the US economy and shared it's resources, Chinese have built Canada's longest railroad and even the Germans now support many US and English war efforts and potitical stands.
It is a big world, not just a big country.

Hi Duck. Almost immediately after I first joined TechRepublic, I encountered your very popular off-topic discussion: "Why?"
There have been many since, and it is obvious that IT people like to discuss non-technical issues with their peers. As "Terrorism" reached its personal brink and quietly died, I was hoping that someone would come up with a fresh off-topic discussion. You must have tuned into my thoughts, so thanks for this double-barrelled one "Brink/Welfare."

You always have something to say that is really nothing to say. you never have a point or conclusion, just nitpicking little points about someone's post. You never have a conclusion.

It reminds me of when my son was 4, we'd go to a rstaurant and he'd say "I don't like that" but when I asked what he wanted, there was that blank look.

So, get to your point, speak your mind and then STFU. What a floundering, pussy way to get your point across.

This is not intended as a turf war, just a curiosity.

-duck

I think it is a matter of perceived slight that causes the many times heated responses on these types of threads. I do not however regret anything I have read or said in such threads. In retrospect I see things I could have phrased differently. Ialso see the hooks that I missed when so vehemently firing off responses. As they say hindsight is 20/20.
That being said I have to tip my hat to Oz here. I thought him, pompous and disingenuous, he thought me overbearing and pugnacious. To thatend we both are mutually guilty. However I have also watched him help others along the way and defray the inflammatory statements, which made me, realize my mistake. To that I say good play, I do not often rescind myself. I am sure we will disagree, it is a given, but I think it is fair to assume the general discord will nopt be over petty matters any longer. However I could be wrong and this could just lead to even more escalation, that is the funny thing about the "Brink" it is always just around the corner, the trick is knowing which corner it is.

Well said Oz, well said.
-duck

Muffin Man:

I know how to cut and paste between DOS sessions. In fact, that's one of the primary reasons I am so sold on Windows.

But I want to see if anyone else knows how. I want to see how far back these young people go in their computer knowledge.

By the way, anyone know where I can find a modern version of QBASIC Gorillas?

"Now I know why they Bleep The Osbournes in the US, it is offensive to SOME viewers and would therefore result in hostility."

Oz: The reason we Bleep the Osbournes in the US is because they are totally trashy people, and we are trying to shield our kids at least a little from these evil people. However, I'm sure that you can find a cable channel which will carry the Osbournes.

They're bleeped only off of the airwaves. And this is to protect kids. There is really no other reason it is done.

The inconsistency, however, is that we allow people like Howard Stern to have his show, but not people like the Osbournes.

One thing I have found among non-Americans is that they often feel Americans are naive because of our moral stand on certain issues. I feel that this is arrogancy on the part of the non-Americans. The non-Americans should make an honest effort to understand why Americans take a moral stand on certain issues before they jump to the "naive" conclusion.

At the same time, Americans must not think of all of their achievements and conclude (and say to others) that they are better than everyone else.

One thing I believe Americans can do is to let non-Americans know, in a humble way, that in the US, EVERYONE can speak their mind without government restriction, and that everyone can live their lives according to their beliefs. But do it insuch a way that your letting the person know that you as the American would count it a privelege and an honor to extend these rights to him the non-American, because it is what is right.

By the way, do you guys ever get any work done? I see post after post from the same people!

Actually, I guess this counts as "enrichment".

We are having a baby in a couple of months. It may have American and British parantage but it will automatically be British by right of birth and fathers nationality and will have the right to live in the UK (or indeed anywhere in Europe). In order to attain US citizenship, there has to be a registration of foreign birth (fee payable), and a US passport has to be applied for (another fee, plus Embassy fees), but that won't make her 'American' in any way shape or form. She will have to claim US citizenship herself when she travels to the USA for the first time (another filing fee!) and it may still take time to then be granted citizenship unless she opts to become resident there....somehow I think we won't be bothering!

Yet 200+ years later, the US are still happy to grant Green Cards and citizenship by lottery to aliens from the oddest countries and allow them to settle in America...but make it very hard for a child born of an American parent overseas to attain the same rights!Whether the US 'system' is better or worse than the UK, I wouldn't like to say...but having the baby here costs NOTHING and the medical bills for her last child in the USA came to over $13,000.

Every nation/region/city has its good and it's bad points...that's my bottom line. What pushes me over the brink is people who righteously defend their own p.o.v. on one issue, and criticise everyone else, but don't acknowledge that some things OTHERS do better!

I'm just not that old yet.
Actually, I knew about the Novell/Word Perfect part and thus GroupWise was adopted by Novell, but my point should have been a little more specific in saying GrouopWise is being developed specifically to work with Netwarewhereas Outlook wasn't.
I was learning to fix cars when all that was happening, or maybe I was in England with a band, come to think of it, I might have been running a delivery company under contract for Ikea. I really don't know but I hate to sitstill and get stagnant at one career. Jack of all trades, master of nothing.

If you noticed it said toung and check - which here in the states means - Joking around (two countries divided by a common language)..

- You can't blame a lad for trying - You know mate - Whated to see how many would get fired up and dive over the edge - you got pretty close ...

Love the people - beer - and ladies - hate the form of government (king / queen / dukes stuff) - enjoy the other posts .. and come on back from the edge...

Now here's quite the tangent but oh well.

You may censor your television shoes and the games kids play and the violence they see on TV.
As soon as kids get into school, those rules are out the window.
I think it is better to expose kids to the real world, not the ideal world and teach them what is correct and what isn't.
as for the Osbournes being trashy, that's a metter of personal opinon. I may find your family trashy, yuo may find mine trashy, again this is a set of your OWN ideals.
I think the Osbournes are quite a normal and open family, they love each other dearly (probably more than most "normal" families), they act accordingly in public, no Ozzy doesn't let them swear like that just anywhere.
This is sorta ilke my saying that yuio teach your kids what is acceptable and where it is acceptable. In Ozzy's home, anything goes. In public, Jack is well behaved and quite polite as is Kelly and Sharon. The TV show, as much as we are led to believe is reality, is also played out to make it mroe appealing to the audience that is so hell bent on seeing them fight and swear.
If Ozzy woke up, scratched his nuts and sat down to breakfast, while Jack and Kelly smiled at each other and said good morning then went to the mall, it wouldn't sell to the target audience.
Just look at the Metal scene in the US, it is focused on rebelious teenage angst, and it sells.

I just read on eof my posts and think it is time to get some needed help.

GOD!! DOES ANYONE HAVE MAVIS BEACON TEACHES TYPING !!! Maybe I'll make that my next project, I'll learn to type instead of haphazardly mashing keys.

New Discussion Thread: Should TR provide a spell checker??

Jim, you have no idea how much I can laugh at before I reach the edge. In fact, I haven't lost my temper or been pushed over the edge since coming out of a coma in 89. SH*T just doesn't get to me that way. I'll argue with someone until I'm blue in the face, in many of my past arguments, I've had my partners looking over my shoulder and laughing along as I rant and rave at some of these guys.
I just don't let it bother me personally. Nothing better than a heated debate to get the blood flowing but it stops there. Just words on a screen.
As for the "tong in chek" is a US expression comment, the rest of the English speaking world has a similar phrase called "tongue in cheek".

Jim, you have a great day, thanks for joining in.
OM

I manage bands that are looking to escape the heavily wasted North American Industry and get signed to a working label in Europe.
There is absolutelu NO hope for most bands to get seen or heard here since the industry in completely controlled by the labels who in trun control the radio stations, retail stores etc.
if you are playing something that isn't mainstream flavour of the week, I hate to say it, but don't even try looking here. There is NO opportunity for discovery anymore since thelabels got rid of scouting. If you are interested in writing and playing music for the masses, you may have a shot if you're ready to sell yourself to a label and take 4-6 points on the sales. You will never actually see any money though.
If you want to work hard writing your own music and play live as much as possible, the european market is designed for hard wordking ORIGINAL bands that have talent.

Most of the old musicians from the 80's are still playing full time, just not out here.Alice Cooper's guitarist, Pete Freisen is laying down bed trcks and jamming in local pubs between Alice tours, Judas Priests former drummer Les Binks is helping a friend of mine get some great recordings done at his studio in southern England.
It'sall still alive and well, it just isn't here.

"I don't know what the taxes are in the UK, but I do know that in Denmark (also in Europe), where health care is also "free", you pay approx 46% of your income as taxes."

As an artist manager, I get taxed a LOT more than 46% on European income. It is a very heavily taxed industry. The average worker in England doesn't pay anywhere near as much in taxes as I do, but that is why all the bands and musicians head to North America and setup ersidences, to acoid the high industry taxation.
You're right, taxes in England suck, but, tax is included in retail pricing which is always nice.
A pro and a con.
Musicians also flock to Europe in droves to escape the pathetic industry here, artists don't make money (don't even start the Back StreetBoys or Brittany Spears thing they're rich but nowhere nearly as rich as they could be)the labels make it, then they pay the radio stations to play what they want to sell, and then the record stores stock, promote and advertise what the labels want them to sell, then you buy tickets at high prices for the shows that the labels want you to see etc.

As for the English economy, it is equal to but not better than ours, middle class people still live cheque to cheque but do a hell of a lot more with their money. People in England are at the bars seeing bends, and generally out enjoying themselves a lot more than North Americans, I know when I get back here, the pace seems so much slower compared to Camden where it never stops, with a pub ortwo on every street, a live band playing great music and patrons partying and dancing until the wee hours. Sure it happens here, but it's not even close to the rhythm of the English music/party scene.
I live in BC, and get heavily taxed for everything, can you believe a pack of cigarrettes costs $8.00 and up ! But you should see the view from my porch. Pros and cons, not just, we have the best a F*&K the rest.

Are you just looking for more people to agree with you now? C'mon, you did that on purpose...

No more trolling for responses, OM, OK?

1. Working with someone who makes it their sole purpose to prevent you from doing your job (to the point of permissioning you out of shares they created and insisted you use)

2. People who won't do their job, but won't let you do it either, causing the end users to "make do"

3. People who assume that because I am in a technical field I am male (tech support reps responding to email, in particular, are bad about this and I do not have a unisex name, either)

My point was not how you or I feel about certain moral issues, it was that the main reason that they censor the airwaves in the US is to protect children.

However, I do happen to believe that the Osbournes present an image and a role model which in my opinion is a bad example for children.

I don't know if you remember Dean Martin, but I had a similar opinion about Dean Martin. He generally looked drunk when he appeared on TV, even having a drink in his hand. I think that is a bad example for children, who, by the way, are noticing little things like this.

But don't worry, this kind of societal censorship is slowly disappearing. All you have to do is look at the immoral lives lived publically by professional athletes here in theUS, and how much of a pedestal they are put up on. (examples: Dennis Rodman and Allen Iverson)

Europeans think that we Americans are naive for having such moral standards. I say that Europe used to have such standards, but has abandoned them.

I really don't have any idea what you are talking about. You're almost as cryptic as Oldefar!!
If you have something to add, add it, if you have something to say, say it.

I really don't remember what part my post related to you, perhapse you could include that in your next post, along with anything relevant you might have to share.

As far as telling me to cease, are you now some form of moderator wannabe or something? I just don't know ho wany of this has pertained to you. If I have offended you somehow in one of my posts (nothing new) just tell me where, I'll either defend my opinion or apologize for offending you.

Other than that, it is not very nice to try and tell someone how they should be posting here, it is that kind ofignorance that pushes some people to the brink.

Now....do you have a point?

Hi Jim, not to try and start anything but you say,
"However, I do happen to believe that the Osbournes present an image and a role model which in my opinion is a bad example for children."

You are 110% correct except you should say for MY children. You have the right and the obligation to ensure your children are raised according to your own set of morals and standards, not the people who produce COPS or Jerry Springer. That is just censorship, as an American, I find it odd that you wouldn't scream injustice in having your constitutional rights ignored this way.

As for your statement;
"Europeans think that we Americans are naive for having such moral standards. I say that Europe used to have such standards, but has abandoned them"
I am sorry to say that in Europe, many people feel the Americans have NO standards or class to speak of and are a brash and arrogant society full of obese over-consumers. - This is the general response I get when in England, not my personal opinion.

Personally, I think you have validity to your point but it doesn't really address the issue of whether parents or the FCC should be responsible for how your children are raised to know right from wrong.

I would be most surprised if anyone following this discussion has not had first-hand experience of a friend or relative committing suicide.
I am fully aware that a high proportion of people who are psychologically robust cannot understand why anyone would take this ultimate step.
But it happens, and not just with sensitive people who find that they can't cope with the normal stresses of life.
I seem to recall that in the Wall Street crash, quite a lot of "strong people" jumped out of high buildings.
I don't have up-to-date information, but there used to be a high suicide rate amongst Japanese students because of the intense pressure to achieve the necessary results to gain employment.
Another instance in which "strong" people feel that they cannot continue is when, for one reason or another, they find themselves in an inescapable situation where they cannot produce the income to provide for their families.
Currently in New South Wales, Australia, the primary producers are facing the worst drought in about 100 years. I daresay this drought will claim many victims also.
So yes, there is a brink, and some people, for a variety of reasons, cross it in a rather permanent kind of way.

There would be strict rules of behavior, a curfew would be in place, etc. This wouldn't be a prison or a military boot camp, but it would have to be very strict, require discipline (or learned discipline), and be just undesirable enough for a personto want to get out of there as soon as possible, yet comfortable enough to make it tolerable - perhaps somewhere between being in the military and attending a strict boarding school. No one would be forced to stay, you could leave whenever you'd like. I could go on describing all the possible details, but I'm sure you get the idea.

A "phase-out" portion would include employment placement (either back home from where you started or just about any other place you'd like to go) as well as moneymanagement help. So when you "graduate", you will have learned some of life's necessary skills - including child care and responsibility, have a decent education (High School level, for example), a job, and a few dollars in the bank.

For the capable - but lazy - they'd have no alternative but self-responsibility. (Or sponging off family, etc. - or resorting to crime, which would be dealt with VERY severely.) For the one's who don't have the skills but don't want to attend, they'd have no alternative but to find a way on their own. (Which most would do, I'm sure.)

In theory, this would only be necessary for only a few dozen years, as the "cycle" would thereby be broken, the "system" could be changed over time, and the "freeloaders" would be weeded out or simply not tolerated and supported.

...and remember Quosh, Robinsons, Ribena to name but three cordials....then there was the entire output of Schweppes...lemonade, tonic, cherryade, orangeade and a dozen other flavours. Hartridges of Horndean in Hampshire have been making carbonated soft drinks for over 50 years and then there is R. Whites (the classic early 70's TV ad...' I'm a secret lemonade drinker....R. Whites)
Then again, Panda Pops have been going for some 45 years and they have at least 30 flavours!

With over 400 pubs on the Isle of Wight (more pubs per square mile and per capita of population than any other part of Europe and, I believe, North America) you should have been able to find more than just Canada Dry! Hmmm....Irn Bru and Tizer were consumed by MY parents as kids and me mum is pushing 60!!

Bods is alright, but if we're discussing the Isle of Wight, you'd be hard pressed to find a better pint than the offerings of 'Burts Island Ales', brewed in Ventnor. Just a shame the 3 mile ferry crossing over the water from my home in Southampton is so damn expensive!!! And as for HSB in Hampshire (Gales of Horndean)...sex in a glass!

Another advantage to the UK over N. America...our honourable 'Imperial Pint' is 20 fl oz and not 16!! This may also explain why our gallon is also 4.54 litres instead of the 3.7 litres in a US gallon.

I have no direct experience but I have had to deal with this as manager of those dealing with it.

The first problem is with the idea that the man is always at fault for a family breakdown and must be punished. Why else would the support be set to impoverish the man? Add to that the fact that the ex-husband is burdened with financial responsiblity even if it can be proven that the child is not his.

I happen to believe that we have a responsibility to our off spring. However the financial aspect of that can be set in a consistent and unbiased fashion regardless of current or future financial situation of the parents. That should be shared by the parents equally after a split, and if one side is unable to contribute for some time any difference made up by the other ought to be a loan.

Like so many others, you are being screwed. I hope the kids are yours at least.

>"the Osbournes present an image and a role model which...is a bad example for children."...you should say for MY children.

If we have a strong conviction about something, we need to stand by it. There are certain values which apply to all - we can all agree that Adolph Hitler was evil. Most issues aren't that clear, but if we never take a stand, then we don't have any values.

>censorship...I find it odd that you wouldn't scream injustice in having your constitutional rights ignoredI believe in free speech/press. However, free speech/press were meant to keep the govt in check, not to allow every pervert to display his wares publicly.

>in Europe, many people feel the Americans have NO standards or class to speak of and are a brash and arrogant society full of obese over-consumers.

A girl from Germany told me that Americans are naive. I never forgot that statement, nor how condescending she appeared when she said it. Are all Germans like her? Certainly not. But I don't know very many Germans, so I can't say that from first-hand knowledge.

They are showing their own arrogance by lumping us all together. Believe me, there is a WIDE variety of people in America.

We always get criticized for being the "policeman" of the world. How does that sync with "no standards"?

The "no class" idea sounds like French arrogance. They're the ones with no standards - let Hitler number 2 (Saddam Hussein) completely off the hook, and criticize us for taking him on!

>whether parents or the FCC should be responsible for how your children are raised to know right from wrong.

It really troubles me to see the moral freefall among the youth of America. And the problem is, most parents aren't monitoring their children. So do we let the whole country go down the toilet, or do we try to do something to stop the hemmorage?

Hi Jim, this discussion is getting lengthy so I think it's almost time to agree to disagree but you made some interesting points that I'd like to discuss further.

1) There are certain values which apply to all - we can all agree that Adolph Hitler was evil. Most issues aren't that clear, but if we never take a stand, then we don't have any values.

1a) I am sure that you wouldn't be comparing Ozzy Osbourne to Adolph Hitler, so I'll pass that off as a bad example.

2) I believe in free speech/press. However, free speech/press were meant to keep the govt in check, not to allow every pervert to display his wares publicly.

2a) "not to allow every pervert to display his wares publicly." At first I had to chuckle, then I saw your point but how does that address censoring Ozzy Osbourne, is he a pervert now? I think you're confusing him with PeeWee Herman.

3)They are showing their own arrogance by lumping us all together. Believe me, there is a WIDE variety of people in America.

3a) I agree and it is very sad that 2% of a country's people can set an example for the rest.
Mind you, the 'American attitude' or 'arrogance' is shown quite strongly in a previous discussion regarding the Iraqi destruction/war. Read - "The War is Over let the Peace Begin" for some prime examples of why people turn against America - actually it was a really stupid thread, you may want to skip it.
Myself, I LOVED the USA for along time, it wasn't until the last ten years that I saw things differently.

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