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Is there an absolute right and wrong?

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109 replies

by surflover

Closed to new repliesThis discussion is closed. It stays readable, but it takes no new replies.
In Max's spirited thread "I hate Democrats", a side discussion touched briefly on ethics and open vs. closed mindedness and the subject of right and wrong and I felt it should be it's own discussion...

109 replies

by master3bs

There are those that will tell you, "There is no such thing as absolute truth."

The problem is, whoever says that has just made an ABOSOLUTE statement that they ABSOLUTELY believe to be TRUE.

Truth exists and it is not subjective.

by geobeck

...and 42.7% of all statistics are made up.

...and Halloween and Christmas are the same holiday because OCT 31 = DEC 25.

by master3bs

than at least one statement would have to be absolute. Logically, you can't have it both ways

by jdclyde

think of one that I don't like of their classic music. not too hip on the newer stuff.

But you just can't beat 2112!

by jdclyde

to bother to find the truth and too dishonst to admit it.

No country or culture has a corner on this market either as there are stupid, uniformed people world wide.

Accept for Canada though. We have learned from OZ that they have all the answers and can see clearly now the rain has come....

People embrace ideas that support what they already believed or WANTED to believe all along. There are a lot of political "discussions" that takes place here that is all lies. For it to be a discussion, don't you have to be open to what the other side is saying, instead of coming in to beat on people with other ideas?

I see very few that are actually open to new ideas that don't fit with what they believed coming into the "discussion".

by m_a_r_k

[i]"stupid, uniformed [sic] people"[/i]

jd, I believe you are talking about military intelligence. You definitely need to invest in a spell checker. Although in this case, it wouldn't have done a damn bit of good. :D

by jdclyde

and no, not the one at the top of your pointy little head either.

We will save your lack of comprehension skills for another discussion, as well as my questionable communications skills? :p

As long as I am still right in my head, I am happy. :D

by m_a_r_k

There is only one absolute right and many shades of absolute wrongness. You are absolutetly right if and only if you totally and unequivocally agree with whatever unequivocally crazy thing I happen to be offering my opinion on. Any bit of wrongheadedness on your part constitutes some degree of not being absolutely right. Is all of this absolutely clear?

by geobeck

"Good is that which promotes life; evil is that which destroys life."

If you want to approach an absolute definition of right and wrong, that's about as good as you're going to get.

by jardinier

that "live" spelt backwards is "evil?"

Which is pretty much what Schweitzer was saying.

Of course this great man carried his "reverence for life" to extremes.

He is one of my mega-heroes. He is generally only known in his role of jungle doctor, but there is so much more that he accomplished in his life.

Highly recommended reading is his autobiography:
"Out of My Life and Thought."

by m_a_r_k

Oh but I absolutely understood what you were trying to say. I've gotten used to comprehending your written communication artistry. :D

by maxwell edison

.
In science it often happens that scientists say, "You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken," and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion.

--Carl Sagan

by jardinier

Well Carl Sagan must have had a defective memory. Many, many people change their religious and/or political allegiances during their life, and often several times.

The doctrines of religions also undergo changes, as do the policy platforms of political parties.

Are you familiar with the term: "Swinging voter?"

Ultimately it is the swinging voters who determine the result of an election. These are people who, for better or for worse, informed or ill informed, make a conscious decision to cast their vote according to how they perceive the overall political picture at a given time, as against those people who have an inflexible bias in favour of one party or another.

by jamesrl

Political parties are not stock entities, much as many of you would care to point the parties that you oppose. Political parties are made up of people, and people change, cultures change.

A good US example is southern democrats. For many decades, democratic candidates prevaled in the south, because the republican party was identified with Lincoln. That grew into a tradition where unlike other parts of the US, many conservatives or moderates were Democrats. But over the years, this too changed, so that the southern conservatives now vote Republican. Many credit Reagan with starting the change.

But people change too. George Wallace opposed desegregation as Governor and fought long and hard against it. He had a change of heart many years later and felt some shame and guilt. At the end of his life he was a proponent of civil rights and equality for all.

In Canadian politics, people do cross the floor from one party to another. They generally try to argue that the party has changed and that they are following principles. And parties fo fluctuate based on who is leader.

Religion is no different. The number of Budhists who are lapsed Christians is an indicator. People seem to more freely change churches today than they did many years ago.

James

by bob in calgary

There is no universal absolute right or absolute wrong, These are based on individual perception and individual truths and circumstances around those rights and wrongs.

For example you could say it is absolutely wrong to destroy life, What about wars, what about if someone was going to kill you or you're family. In that case it would not be wrong to destroy life.

by jdclyde

It is NEVER "right" to steal a TV after being in a flood.

It is NEVER "right" to break into jewelry stores and loot them during a race riot (LA after king trial)

So sometimes there ARE absolutes in the world.

by bob in calgary

To me those are pretty trivial, and not something i considered in the overall context of Absolutes.

Yes it is wrong but you would need to talk to the people doing it to see if they thought it wrong, Would you rob a jewelry store to buy food for your kids if they were starving?

Probably therefore as i said before nothing is absolute, it depends on circumstances and perceptions.

Just my opinion

by antuck

Come on your just saying that because it is true right?!

So based on what you said, it must NEVER be "right" to cry for help and then take "pop shots" at the people who come to help. And then cry that no one is helping you.

by bob in calgary

Depending on circumstances, It is, I also enjoy a nice tasty steak, which an Alberta steer was killed for. And don't you think that potatoes have there life destroyed when you boil them.

by maecuff

I accidently step on ants and therefore, have destroyed a living creature. But, I don't think that makes me evil. Now, when I get the magnifying glass out...that's a whole different story.

by master3bs

If right and wrong are based on individual truths and perceptions, than the biggest; strongest; fastest individual makes all the rules.

If Bob decides it is ok to kill Sam, then it doesn't matter what Sam feels is right or wrong. If Bob has the ability than Sam dies despite Sam's individual truths.

Take it further. If indivdual truths rule than Bob can't be tried for that. He can't be punished in any way because Bob's truth is he is innocent of any crime.

In our society Bob would be tried for it and probably convicted. He would still face whatever sentence is given him despite his individual truths.

by bob in calgary

The question was regarding absolute right or wrong, my comment was around the word absolute and not if there is right and wrong.
To imply something as an absolute would negate mitigating circumstances.

by maecuff

Please..PLEASE don't ever say 'taters' again. It completely destroys my image of you.

by bob in calgary

However it would be totally out of character for you to streeeeeeeetch a posting made on here.

so maybe you were serious.

by m_a_r_k

[b]right: [/b] [i]adjective.
1. Conforming with or conformable to justice, law, or morality: do the right thing and confess.
2. Fitting, proper, or appropriate: It is not right to leave the party without saying goodbye.
3. Most favorable, desirable, or convenient: the right time to act.[/i]

Based on this definition, there is no [b]absolute[/b] right or wrong. Conforming with, appropriate, favorable, convenient. All are subjective and value judgments.

by master3bs

Conforming to Justice
Conforming to Law
Conforming to Morality

You can't conform to justice, law or morality if they don't exist.

by jdclyde

IF they precieve something to be bad is not the determination of if something is bad.

If your starving, steal the food that you need.

Ask the members of NAMBLA if they feel they are doing anything wrong, and it doesn't change if it is wrong or not.

Ask a KKK member if they feel what they are going is wrong, and again it doesn't change if it is wrong or not.

Sure, there are many grays in the world, but not everything is gray. There really are some black and whites.

Why do people that belive in executing a fetus belive it is wrong to execute a violent criminal? And it goes the other way too. Why is one killing right and the other wrong? Opinion makes it correct?

by Member 25348569

Why do people who would do [b]anything[/b] to stop the "execution" of a foetus believe that it is acceptable to execute a violent criminal?

Well, because we are all complex, rationalising beings and life is never really about absolutes other than the absolute certainty that death will come to us all.

On that cheery though, I'll go back to reconfiguring the SAN....

Neil :D

by jdclyde

(Answering you neil, but not directed at you)

Many people say they rationalize, when all they do is back peddle on any issue. When you compromise, you are saying your beliefs and convictions are not worth following?

The "many scales of gray" thought process is a big part of the problem with the world now. When YOU refuse to stand up and say something is wrong because your afraid you might hurt someone elses feelings, then the quality of life goes down.

As the discussion showed months ago, having morals and convictions does NOT mean you are pushing your "religious values" on people because many of the same morals are consistant among religious and non-religious civilized people.

And this is not including what people do behind closed doors with farm animals. That is their concern, not mine. As long as they don't take it out to the front yard.

by jardinier

Buddha observed a number of monks walking up and down intellectualising.

He said (something to this effect): "While you are walking about having a mental wank, you are crushing to death countless tiny creatures."

by jardinier

No doubt one or more persons will find a flaw in this maxim which I invented:

"The absolute truth is that nothing is absolutely true."

by itgirli

Fact of it is, we, as a general populace, seem prone to disagreement. Every one of us has an opinion and every one of us thinks we are right. I believe that over time, we have remained as stubborn and narrow-minded as we have always been. Pandora's box was opened and we reap the ruin. Is there an absolute right or wrong? How will we ever know, since we, without merit, choose to judge each other by our own ideals. Perhaps if we could come together as a society we could seek out the higher learning that could lead us to such an answer, though I doubt that will ever come. Everything is subjective. Some will make their own decisions and establish their own point of view. Many will not even care. Look at the world. never a century without war in one place or another. We will never agree and such is our fate.

by jdclyde

because I agree with you?

Is the problem that people have ideals, or that people don't share the same ideals?

by itgirli

Life would hardly be interesting. I think people should hold different ideals, but they should also be openminded enough to respect other people's ideals as much as their own as long as those ideals do not go along with the basic evils of society (killing, raping, stealing, etc.)
There should be a moral good common among the people, but we'll never find it.

by m_a_r_k

Nice speech, girli. I have no idea what it means, but it was a nice speech anyway. You're Thomas Paine reincarnate. Except that you're not Thomas Paine. Maybe you're Girli Paine. Not that you're really a pain or anything. You're kinda fun actually. I've said it before and I'll say it again, you should run for public office. If you can whip up (or plagiarize?) a few more speeches like that, you'll have the voters' heads mesmerizedly spinning and you'll be able to ride to office on a wave of emotion. :D

by itgirli

I'm from an Irish family. The Irish are notorious for such speaking/writing abilities.

by m_a_r_k

I can't remember the name or artist of this song but it's pretty relevant to this pointless discussion. It's is bugging the crap out of me. The name of the song is bugging me, not this discussion. The word's "you could be wrong, you could be right" repeat several times through the song. It's sung by a male singer. It's at least 15 or more years old. The song, not the singer. Well, the singer is over 15 also but I was actually referring to the song. I did a Google search and it found several hundred hits for a song named "I Know My Time Is Coming". I'm not sure if that's the right song or not. I need to hear the damn thing to know for sure. I never could figure out who the singer is. What in the world is "Zwan"? The word "Zwan" keeps showing up along with this song.

by maecuff

Billy Joel has a song that has those lyrics. For your sake, listen to something else and perform a music exorcism.

I get earwigs all the time. It's funny until it keeps me up at night.

by m_a_r_k

Hmm, I dunno. The sounds in my head don't remind me of Billy Joel. It has a bit of a rougher edge. What's the name of Billy Joel's song with those lyrics?

by surflover

the Night gallery episode where the earwig gets put in the worng man's ear?... and after being one of the only people to survive it's journet through his brain, they discover it was a female... laying eggs along the way !!!!!

Rod serling did a great job with that show...

by surflover

"something so right" in my head... now I've got an "earwig" as Mae put it... but at least it's not a Billy Joel song :^O... sorry girli, I'm not much of a Billy Joel fan...

by maecuff

I think it's the "you may be right, I may be crazy..blah blah blah.." It ends up with him saying "you could be wrong but you could be right" over and over.

And now THAT is stuck in my head. sheesh

by jdclyde

happy happy joy joy happy happy joy
happy happy joy joy happy happy joy

Did that help?

by itgirli

That's the name of it. Great song. "You may be right, I may be crazy, but it just may be a lunatic you're looking for...." I'm sorry. I'm a huge Billy Joel fan. End of the song goes "you may be wrong or you may be right" over and over and over. I find him to be a very talented musician, but not so much a great functional alcoholic. Watch out for that tree! (wait isn't that George of the Jungle, or maybe Michael Kennedy.....)

by m_a_r_k

That may be the [i]lunatic[/i] you're looking for but it's not the [i]song[/i] I'm looking for. I know that Billy Joel song. It's not the song in my head. Arrgh! This is killing me.

by itgirli

Friday night I crashed your party
Saturday I said I'm sorry
Sunday came and trashed me out again
I was only having fun
Wasn't hurting any one
And we all enjoyed the weekend for a change

I've been stranded in the combat zone
I walked through Bedford Stuy alone
Even rode my motorcycle in the rain
And you told me not to drive
But I made it home alive
So you said that only proves that I'm insane

You may be right
I may be crazy
But it just may be a lunatic your looking for
Turn out the light
Don't try to save me
You may be wrong for all I know
But you may be right

Remember how I found you there
Alone in your electric chair
I told you dirty jokes until you smiled
You were lonely for a man
I said take me as I am
Cause you might enjoy some madness for a while

Now think of all the years you tried to
Find someone to satisfy you
I might be as crazy as you say
If I'm crazy then it's true
That it's all because of you
And you wouldn't want me any other way

You may be right
I may be crazy
But it just may be a lunatic your looking for
It's too late to fight
It's too late to change me
You may be wrong for all I know
But you may be right

You may be right
I may be crazy
But it just may be a lunatic your looking for
Turn out the light
Don't try to save me
You may be wrong for all I know
But you may be right
You may be wrong but you may be right
You may be wrong but you may be right

by m_a_r_k

Not the song in my head. The song in my head definitely has the verse "you [u]could[/u] be wrong, you [u]could[/u] be right". Not "may be" but "could be". Here is the only song I found from Google. I don't know who sings it or what it sounds like.

i know my time is coming around
i know my time is coming around
i know my time is coming
i know my time is coming around
i know my time is coming around

i know my time is coming
i know my time is coming around
it's coming around
i've seen a new day dawning
i'd give my life this morning
i know my time is coming around

you might be right
you could be someone in my life
you could be wrong, you could be right
you do what you want
you've always done just what you want
you could be wrong, you could be right

i know my time is coming
i know my time is coming around
i know my time is coming around
i'd give my life for someone
to say i died for someone
i know my time is coming around
it's coming around

so long blisters bled outside
call out the races, forget who we were
i really tried to be someone you can love
better than a simple man
with some help from the lord above

you might be right
you could be someone in my life
you could be wrong, you could be right
into the light
you've always wandered towards the light
into the light, into the light

to want, to wait
to always hesitate
to love, to love you
to beg, to steal
to scrape for what you feel
to love someone
someone like me

i know my time is coming
i know my time is coming around
i know my time is coming around
i've seen a new day dawning
i'd give my life this morning
i know my time is coming around
it's coming around
it's coming around
coming around, it's coming around
around, it's coming around

you might be feeling all they love, forever
you might be feeling all they love, forever
it's coming around
you might be feeling all they love

by jdclyde

it is time for the "leaders" to stop creating this victom syndrom that is responsible for the sorry shape that the poor poor are in?

Just a little personal responsiblity goes a long way, and it even gives people some PRIDE (remember that word?) in who and what they are.

Want what you have, not have what you want. Stop watching TV and the commercials that tell you that you need to have the lastest gyzmo.

Somewhere down the line people forgot to just be happy with what they have instead of lusting for what someone else has. I personally am looking for a SMALLER house, now that the wife is gone, instead of moving to a bigger better thing. Keep it simple so I don't have to work all the time to pay for the toys I wouldn't have time to use.

As long as I have some jager in the freezer, redbull in the fridge and a sunny day to play golf with my boys, I am happy.

by surflover

No girlie... Mark has an "earwig" (as Mae put it)... do you remeber the origin of "earwigs"?

by m_a_r_k

That leads back to the whole "right or wrong" discussion. I thought of the song first so my song is the right song. :p

by m_a_r_k

The name "earwig" is said to originate from an old belief that earwigs crawl into people's ears and lay eggs in the brain. Earwigs do tend to prefer being in hidden places, and on very rare occasions have been known to find their way into a human ear canal, but only as far as the eardrum and certainly never into the brain. The name actually comes from the ancient use of pulverized earwigs as medicine to treat diseases of the ear, resulting in the Late Latin name auricula. When much later the origin of the name was forgotten, a false explanation was found. Another explanation is that it is an alteration of "ear-wing", after the shape of the hind wings when unfolded, but it's important to note that the Oxford English Dictionary states unequivocally that the name is derived from Old English words for ear and wiggle "from the notion that it penetrates into the head through the ear."

by surflover

Gallery episode about earwigs?... it was classic, the guy pays a "hit man" to put one in the ear of his lover's husband to get him "out of the way"... the thing gets put in his ear by mistake, but he live through it... then when it pops out the other side, they discover it was a female and ways laying eggs along the way... :^O

it ended there :-)

by m_a_r_k

Surfer, I'm a youngster; not old enough to remember much about "Night Gallery". I was probably about 10 yrs old when it aired. I do remember a little about it but not much else. I've killed too many brain cells, broken too many broken bones and had too many near-death experiences in the intervening years to remember much about my youth.

by maecuff

I'm refering to the never ending jukebox that I have playing in my brain. And when I say never ending, I mean it. There is never a time that I don't have something playing. The bad part is, I have NO say over what is going to play and many times, it's horrible songs that drive me nuts. For instance, right now, I have "How do you do" by Mouth and McNeal playing. It's a wretched song. I'm going to have to put some music on to either drown it out or redirect to better music...

by jamesrl

..without (naa naa, naa naa)hearing (naa naa, naa naa) that (naa naa, naa naa) song(hey thats what I'm living for).

Thanks alot....

James

by surflover

I used to love his music till I moved to the Keys... then I heard so much of it I began to loath it... but the strange thing was, if I even thought of one of his songs, it would take over the music box (I suffer the same malady) and block everything else from getting in...

by maecuff

I'm originally from Cincinnati where it is required to see Jimmy Buffet at least once a year in concert. I did my time. I've got London Calling playing right now and am doing just fine..

by jdclyde

I love you
You love me
We're a happy family
With a great big hug
And a kiss from me to you
Won't you say you love me too?

I love you
You love me
We're best friends
Like friends should be
With a great big hug
And a kiss from me to you
Won't you say you love me too?

Now, which would you prefer, Ren and Stimpy or Barney? I am also known to sing "winter wonderland" in the middle of august.

Glad I could be there for you!

by maecuff

it is to do this. My boss gets great enjoyment from sending me an email with the lyrics to Islands in the stream or Kung Fu fighting, knowing that it will torment me until I find a way to turn it off.

The Barney song is really a low blow. I'm going to have to think of a creative way to get even..

by m_a_r_k

If he really wanted to torment you he'd send you some songs by Barry Manilow or The Captain and Tennille (sp?).

by antuck

I guess it could be pot shots. I always thought pop because of the popping noise from a gun. Well really it's not a popping noise but it's not a pot noise either :) Now you have me thinking...

by surflover

pot?shot also pot shot

n.
1. A random or easy shot.
2. A criticism made without careful thought and aimed at a handy target for attack: reporters taking potshots at the mayor.

[So called because such a shot is fired by a hunter whose main purpose is to get food for the pot.]

by maecuff

A way to permanently block Muskrat Love and Copa Cabana, so I think I'm safe on that front.

by justathought

The question was not "is there a right or wrong"
that would have been open to many categories, as of course it al depends of beliefs, cultures, one's judgement, and in the end there are to some degrees categories where it could be said that yes there are such a concept to right and wrong

However by adding the word "absolute", the author of the discussion has given us an extra task of deep thoughts, nothing can ever be totally absolute in the sense, however it is still (if not absolute) an air of mostly right or wrong as we all know in ourselves what is (in any or most situation) right or not.

An amazing question really, when one explores it, for there is no absolute right or wrong so to speak but there is a mostly right and a mostly wrong.
Not just from what we have learnt or our culture but from what we feel within ourselves, yes OK our background influences our answer, however the real answer comes from within , we have learnt how we would want to be treated, what hurts us and what pleases us, how it makes us feel, and from this we define our own limits of right and wrong, all to a different degree and circumstances but some sort of what is acceptable and what is not.
Hence perhaps, no "Absolute" but "a mostly" and if not entirely to some degree the scale tips for all of us to a level where even if not to the same degree or on the same subject we all have :a mostly right or wrong but not a total absolute.

An other interesting point is that if we come to a conclusion that some right or some wrong could be said to be almost absolute, have you noticed how within ourselves we try to discover the circumstances that could bring a balance on the opposite side, somehow we leave a door open that it cannot be absolute because in such and such situation it could be seen as the right or wrong thing.

The mind that never stops giving us the opposite riddle does not take kindly to anything absolute, a good thing really, for is it why we are always searching and learning, it cannot be a cutting point that cannot be explored further.

by surflover

Now you've got that stupid song in my head too...

THAT WAS LOW :^O...

I'm going to find my headphones and listen to some parrot head crap ...that stuff gets stuck forever... but at least barney will be DEAD! :^O

by maecuff

Jimmy Buffet is a good replacement? Sheesh, you can't come up with something better than that?

by maxwell edison

.
My problem isn't with absolute right and wrong, as much as it is with absolute truth and falsehood. Abortion, for example, could be an absolute wrong thing to do in one person's eyes, but not in another's. And in such a case, one must force the other into capitulation, one must convince the other to change his opinion -- change his concept of an absolute right and wrong, or they must agree to disagree.

If a person freely admits and defines what their absolute right and wrong might be, even though I may disagree, it's easier to have an understanding, and it's easier to see a distinction. Showing one's true colors and letting the chips of opinion fall where they may is the more honest thing to do, at least in my opinion, whereas the chameleons around us who are coy and evasive, or who state a falsehood to support themselves are the ones who come across as dishonest.

In another thread, for example, some guy said this. "..... the word 'homeland', selected by our president because of the strong emotional weight it carries, was also used by other enlightened regimes like Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union. What was wrong with "Domestic Security"?

Okay, dude. That might seem like an "absolute right"" in your feeble brain, but it can't possibly be an absolute truth. Unless, of course, this guy is privy to the private thoughts and reasoning of another person. Moreover, when a person points out "a truth", such as, ..... "It was actually Senator Joseph Lieberman (D-Conn.) who introduced the 'Department of National Homeland Security Act' to the Senate in October 2001. And President Bush was initially opposed to it. But anything 'homeland' originated with that bill", ..... it illustrated how divides are born.

Those two positions can't really be an "agree to disagree" type situation, but rather one where somebody is stating a falsehood to support what he might consider the "right" thing to do. And in the spirit of illustrating that Carl Sagen quote I previously posted, I can't imagine the person who stated the falsehood would come out and say, "That's a good point; I didn't know that; okay, you convinced me, and I'll never say that again."

Instead, people choose to support a lie because the lie supports what they consider the "right thing". It's these types of people with whom I have no patience. And it's these people who, in my estimation, simply cannot be taken seriously. For they have not even the slightest concept of absolute right and wrong, at least the way I see them.

by surflover

a few years ago, I worked with a woman who tried to convince me (and everyone else in the office) that the "true enlightenment" was that there is no right or wrong, and that if everyone believed whatever they wanted and was "true" to themselves the world would be at peace...

after listening to this drival on more than one occasion I pointed out to her that many people's beliefs would require that she be irradicated for that point of view (I used Islam as one example as the Koran states that non-muslims are to be converted, enslaved or killed, but I could have chosen many others)...

although this didn't seem to disuade her much... she still carried "crystals" in her pocket because they made her smarter, and slept under a pyramid to absorb it's wisdom while she slept... :^O

by jamesrl

I will admit I am right there with you on the "Homeland" security bit. That is to my estimation lazy thinking - it denies the applicability of context.

But when I suggest nuance, I think people fall into lazy intellectual traps. It is easier for them to say murder is always wrong, than to try and understand the subtleties and nuances.

For example; I think the murder of a physically abusive husband by a battered wife may be wrong or may not be wrong, depending on the psychological state of the wife. I wouldn't give the wife a free pass on the first occasion (the wife has options to leave etc), but I do think that over time after a series of beatings, the person receiving the abuse may undergo a psychological change and may not be able to think with the mind of a "rational" person.

Am I being a chameleon because I despise murder for reasons of greed, lust envy etc., but may under some circumstances excuse it in the case of a severley battered wife (or husband, it can happen). Or am I looking at things as not always so black and white.

Don't get me wrong Maxwell, while you and I disagree, I don't think you are guilty of this kind of "lazy" thinking. But there are those on both sides of many of the hotly discussed issues, who too easily fall into simplistic patterns of response. All government is not bad, all business is not bad, all managers are not bad, all unions are not bad(cough, cough I have a hard time admitting that). It is easier to stereotype than to look at people's actions, intents and motives with a critical eye.

James

by maxwell edison

.
You and I have disagreed on more occasions than not, but neither of us have fallen into the trap of "lazy thinking".

Very good term, James, lazy thinking. Unfortunately, it describes a lot of people.

by surflover

when referring to a group they are making a serious error... Lazy thought is a good label... All of us have the tendency to categorize the world around us, that's how the brain stores information... but generalizations are dangerous

by jdclyde

I have never bought into this, as it is impossible to prove one way or the other.

If someone is being beaten and to defend themselves end up killing someone, that I see as self defence.

Unfortunately, many times there isn't an easy way for the woman to leave and so it is easier to kill the person than to go to a womans shelter.

Not everything in life is Black and white, but that doesn't mean everything is gray, as the "progressive liberal" movement in the US would have you believe.

When we had the LA riots, it was unexcusable to loot and ransack the city like they did. Then the jeliousy that inspired the corean shops to get cleaned out was way out of hand. The poor poor blacks in LA were "outraged" that the corean families came over with little to nothing but through hard work built up their own businesses while the black community was content to spend decade after decade on welfare and do nothing to advance their own lives.

When a minor murders someone, they should get a slap on the wrist and be set free when they turn 21? I don't think so.

When people say it isn't "fair" to require drug testing for anyone recieving public assistance, where is the logic there? If someone is unemployed and taking drugs (by spending OUR tax dollars to buy them) how likely are they to EVER get a job?

by surflover

I found a Paul Simon CD that is very calming... Like I said in my post, I'm not a Buffet fan, but his stuff will wipe out anything else in the earwig... even Barney... :^O

I like most "creative" music... Nora Jones is haunting, Jack Johnson is great, some of Sting's CDs he made after going solo are very good... but having grown up in the 60s, I sill listen to the Stones, Beatles, Yes, Emerson Lake and Palmer, ZZtop, Skynrd, CSNY, Hendrix, Santana (his new stuff is good too), The Doors, Springsteen, Dave Mathews, and others...

I like Jazz too, but things like Boz Skaggs, Grover Washington and Diana Krull just cant "stick" to the earwig that well... :^O

by surflover

I grew up in Detroit where you had to see Bob Seeger, Jethro Tull and Grand Funk Railroad at least twice a year...

But I did like GFR's cover of "Locomotion" :^O

by m_a_r_k

My gosh you're such a suck-up!

You and 900 million other human beings have "some" Irish in their family. I have nary a bit of Irish in me. I'm damn proud to be 100% German-American.

by jamesrl

Lets take the burning bed case.... Now if someone defends themselves from battery and kills the batterer - yes fairly clear thats self defense.

But what if the person being battered doesn't take action during the heat of the moment. What if it happens after things have cooled down. The person being battered may still have reason to fear for their life. The legal concept of Mens rea (to know to do) comes into play. That means they can't be held accountable if they weren't conscious of the decision. Hence if by being battered, verbal abused etc to the point of diminished mental capacity(ability to think clearly and rationally) I can buy the argument that its possible they could be "not guilty" of murder even though its cold blood. But does that state exist if there has been just one incident of battery? I would suggest that there would have to be a clear and consistent pattern.

But I do agree there are absolutes. LA riots - no need to loot - they were not saving their lives. Stealing food after Katrina? Depends on the circumstance. Stealing jewellry after Katrina - not justified, ever.

I don't think everything is grey.

In Canada, we have been trying minors for a long time. There was a famous case in the 60s where a 14 year old went to jail, was released in the 80s, and recently totally vindicated. In most provinces, the crown attourney can petition the court to have the young offender considered an adult and a judge decides based on a number of factors.

I would suggest that drug testing for welfare is good - and not that we cut them off, but we make them take a mandatory program to get clean. In Ontario, we have a program (workfare) fashioned after some US states where after a time they either have to work at a gov't sponsored job at a private company, or take some paid for training to upgrade their job skills, or just simply stop getting benefits. Its not perfect, but it works better than the old system. Its a hand up, not a hand out to use an old phrase.

James

by jdclyde

although for if the "battered" person is "guilty" or not is NOT what I am talking about. I am talking about what I feel is right or wrong, not what someone can get away with using legal loopholes and psycho mumbo jumbo.

Yes, we have the same workfare system in Michigan. It is the same system that worthless human Michal Moore blames for why the little 5 year old girl was shot in Flint a few years back. The mother of the boy that did the shooting was working to pay her bills (like the rest of us) and used that for an excuse to leave her boy in the crackhouse where he found the gun. (bowling for columbine, what a piece of "rubish"!) I am a firm believer that a person that workes has more selfrespect than someone that just sits around and waits for that welfare check to come rolling in. It is also better for the state and everyone in it. If the people want/need the money, there is always a park that needs to be cleaned up or something that would benift the comunity.

Did you know there are thousands of battered women every day?
And to think, I've been eating them plain all these years! ;)

by surflover

:^O

I'm not sure of how many "ethnicities" got into the bloodline in europe... all I know is the father's side is swiss, mother's swiss-german, my mom's grandmother was 1/2 Irish, and my dads grandmother was Nez-Pierce (first generation in the US)... far as I can tell the rest were swiss...

by m_a_r_k

Or in other words, you're a mutt, sufer. (j/k Mutts make the best pets.) haha