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Is using hotspots legal?

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by mpd881

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I just received a call from a friend who lives in the boonies, and has no access to the internet. He said he comes into the closest town and parks next to an office building that uses wireless networks, late at night so as not to use any bandwidth they might need. He is able to get online there and does nothing illegal/immoral on the internet. He was wondering if there is anything illegal about doing this. There have been police that eye him suspiciously, but so far they haven't spoken to him about it. I thought I'd heard somewhere that it was illegal to do that, but looking on the message boards here, it seems it's ok. Any help I can give my friend before he ends up in jail would be great.

Thanks

Bob

82 replies

by oz_media

YOu say your "friend" is not doing anything wrong by using bandwidth at night, you and he are both wrong.
I don't know what country you are in, but most ISP's (especially business class) provide bandwidth on the basis of KB's or Megs transferred, not the old dialup unlimited, but monitored business class.
In the case of ISDN, it is usually based on time ie: 75hrs IDSN PRI access =$150.00/mo therefore, your friend is stealing from that company and is subject to a criminal offence of theft under (in Canada, theft under $2000.00)

If the company pays for business class ADSL, the charges are usually based on bandwidth used per month,
ie: 10 Gigs of ADSL @ 1.5 Mbps = $80.00/mo, overage of the initial 10 Gigs costs $50.00/Gig.

Now your friend is stealing again and is subject to the same penalty.

Any netwrok administrator that monitors his bandwidth will notice this usage and will eventually attempt to track it.
there have been a few posts in this forum ergarding unwanted network logins and I feel several are due to sutuations such as the one that your friend is creating.

In short, he PROBABLY won't be caught but a sharp NetAdmin will have hime pegged in no time. What he is doing is stealing, theft, unwarranted usageor whatever you may want to call it. It is illegal and punishable by the criminal code. No different than stealing a cable or satellite signal.

by thechas

Like many aspects of new technologies, there may not be a local law that makes what your friend is doing a crime, YET!!

As business leaders discover problems that cost them money, they in turn contact their legislatures and request laws to stop the activity.

There is also the chance that there is a version of the SDMCA in force in your area that may cover your friends activity.

In the US, a sharp prosecutor looking to test the law may consider charging your friend under some provisionsof the Patriot Act.
What your friend is doing can be considered hacking.

As OzMedia stated, the company could consider your friends actions to be theft, and may bring a civil suit against him.

Of course, the fact that your friend can just drive up to this building and access their wifi network shows that the business has a security problem.

Chas

by oz_media

"Of course, the fact that your friend can just drive up to this building and access their wifi network shows that the business has a security problem."

Sounds like a title for a new discussion.
I think it's been done to death though, before my coming to TR. Almost as bad as the redundant, WHY XP discussions. Can't wait for M$'s nest OS!

by iceman

Very illegal,

You may wish to inform him that if the company are using there own DNS servers, they could catch him straight away, simply by the access time stamps for the dnsserver. They will simply have a policeman waiting for you next time.

Plus charge you for all the usage, dating back as far as they can match the traffic.
Ouch...

Peter

by maxwell edison

The practice is called "war driving".

Is war driving illegal? Some argue that the burden of securing a network is on the owner of the network, like satellite broadcasters.

It is not illegal to view satellite programs that have not been encrypted, but it is illegal to crack encrypted broadcasts.

Source: http://tinyurl.com/egv7

Some more interesting articles:

http://tinyurl.com/egti

http://tinyurl.com/egsx

http://tinyurl.com/egty

Companies sell products to help do it. Here's one such company:

http://tinyurl.com/egtq

My guess is that it is probably not specifically illegal, unless a person is cracking encrypted code. I suppose I don't know for sure, but I would, however, hate to be the target of the first test case.

by oz_media

"My guess is that it is probably not specifically illegal, unless a person is cracking encrypted code. I suppose I don't know for sure, but I would, however, hate to be the target of the first test case."

As I'ev mentioned before, my brother is acorporate attorney for the CRTC as well as several branches of Rogers Canada. This same situation has been brought in front of the courts before and the 'hacker' lost.
Please excuse my misuse of the term hacker, but that's the closest thing (otherthan thief) that comes to mind. In the case I'm referring to, the culprit had taken an incoming ADSL line and demarked it to a separate patch panel that he in turn ran into his office next door. The action was physical in that he spliced a cable. In THIS case the action is physical in the sense that the user DRIVES to a specific business to steal their bandwidth. If he was sitting in a park, playing solitaire and all of a sudden noticed he had access via WiFi, it could be considered accidental and up to the ISP or the company to realize the signal is being broadcast.
If you visit the area for the specific reason of stealing bandwidth, you wouldn't have too much to go against a decent attorney.

AGAIN, this is in Canada, I know many of our laws are very different than yours. You can be sure that any business worth a few $$ is gonna have a better attorney than you and will definitely pay to win just to make a point.

I'm no angel, believe me the music industry has NO angels (sorry to burst your bubble Jim), but this is theft. As a kid, I wouldn't have cared as an adult, he's lucky it isn't my bandwidth.

OM

by jim phelps

>I'm no angel, believe me the music industry has NO angels (sorry to burst your bubble Jim)

What about Pat Boone? He did a commercial for Milk long before milk was "cool".

And did you know that Pat Boone refused acting roles if the role involved him kissing a woman? He didn't want to kiss a woman who wasn't his wife.

by zlitocook

Wireless connection areas it is not illegal, you are just testing the area and do not use any bandwith. I am always looking for free connections to the internet and there are more and more companys providing it for free. They use adds to pay for it.If you use the connection to get on line and not to get in the network I would not worry about it! But a small town cop may not see it that way.

by djent

In the USA wireless uses public general use bandwidth and is fair game to all, much like citizen band 10m. Anyone that does not encrypt it is a fool and asking to be hacked. Unfortunatly the hardware vendors do not warn of dangers or provide encryption sufficient to prevent abuse. All the security measures required for wired networks apply to wireless plus encryption. Don't drop your soap in a public shower.

by maxwell edison

...in the links provided - at least as far as this discussion goes.

Ultimately, a court would decide whether or not this activity is legal. But this isn't a court, but rather a general discussion.

Instead of simply saying, yes it is, no it's not, how about providing links to sources that suggest one way or the other?

This link: http://tinyurl.com/egv7 suggests that it is probably not illegal IF you don't crack encrypted code. (I'm not saying I agree or disagree, but it's the only one Iran across that even mentioned the legality issue.)

Any more links to add support to a suggestion?

by oz_media

I dodn't include any links in my posting becasue:
1) I live in Canada, laws are VERY different

2) I've seen the court ruling first hand myself, sorry they didn't provide me with a link to their paperwork, guess that's next though.

3) If this information is publicly available on the Internet, the POSTER should have been researching that information as well as posting for personal opinions here. I understand that you may be able to find info that someone else may not, but that's when I would include a link. Not just to support my opinion, it's my opinion take it for what it is, just like most websites are someone elses opinion, unless we must take info posted on websites verbatim.
I suggest as far as LEGALITY is concerned, check with your local state laws, that information is publically available to all.

To call this type of access "Using a hotspot" isn't too accurate in my mind either. In Canada, they have tested several "Hotspots" and are thinking of adding moer as a local public service.
IE: Vancouver International Airport is currently a Hotspot, the Waterfront Train station is another public access Hotspot. Driving up to someone's business in the middle of the night and stealing their PAID signal, I don't see as a public Hotspot. Secondly, why doesn't he do this at noon, the company network probably wouldn't be too busy if people are out for lunch or maybe the offernder knows he is not doing the right thing to begin with. Does he dress in black with a balaclava too?

by hal 9000

It is certianly bordering on the illegal I casn't remember exactly when but some time last year some security experts where trying to break into a companies wireless network {they where employed to make sure the network was secure} but unfortuantly for them an office of the FBI was in the same building and they accidently blundered into this network. These 2 guys where very rapidly surrounded by FBI Agents with their weapons drawn and there was a lot of explaining to do.

But the thing that interestes me here is the fact that he can do this as there are some very basic security problems present in the system for him to be able to do this and worse still the Sys Admin doesn't seem to be picking this up so the company has to wear some to the problem here as well.

by oz_media

If you leave your car unlocked with the keys in the ignition, it is a prety stupid and insecure way to leave your property that you have worked hard to obtain. Does that then give me the right to steal it?

If you leave your wallet on the table in the office, may I steal it?

If you left your keys in your front door ay night, would I be welcome to enter your house and make a sandwich?

Then why is a company's failure to secure their bandwidth an invitation to steal it?

by sue.ritter

If you stood out on the sidewalk and opened your wallet and started throwing your money everywhere would it be illegal to pick it up. Probably not. You'd probably get busted for littering instead. If you stand on the street with a sign that says "Free Car" and hand someone your keys, would that be stealing.

I think someone would have a tough time calling this type of connection illegal. If you are not physically breaking in or stealing and just sitting in your car using your laptop andtheir wireless connection is basically "bleeding" right out into the street then I can't see how it would be illegal. Plus you could always make the case that you are not hacking and you are on public property not the companies private property so any connection that you happen to pickup while sitting in your car on public property is perfectly legal.

by tedw_sd

The point being if we are creditable we would not act as criminals.
We must and as we teach our children be respectful of others property in this case resources.

by tomsal

..not to start a war over this but as someone who has lots of friends, family and a few acquaintenances in nearly all the major military branches ans well as law in force (state troopers, local (township) cops, FBI, CIA, USMC, Army and Coast Guard) -- FBI Agents would be severly overstepping their bounds for drawing their weapons if all they had to go on was that someone was messing with their wireless network. They have procedure and protocol to follow just like "normal" law enforcement personnel do (ie. "cops").

Also, no federal law enforcement (includes FBI, CIA and DEA) agency uses wireless network for official work of any importance level beyond "low". There is actual written guidelines and policies (varies on agency) that prohibits any data beyond "low" importance from transmitting over wireless networks.

by hal 9000

I don't know about what the actual facts where as for some fairly obvious reasons they where never covered only the story which was in one of the Computer Mags on a topic aboput wireless security. From memory it wasn't even an atticle but aa short side note. Unfortunatly I haven't been able to find the thing again or I would post a link to it here.

But the main point I was trying to make is there are some very basic security issues here that should be addressed.
1 The simple availability ofgaining access to the network

2 The way this is allowed to continue

and lastly

3 No one seems to be picking up on this intrusion into the network as the hole is still there.

If it was my responsibility I think I would fire myself for incompendence.

What's your take on this Tom?

by maxwell edison

It's illegal in Hong Kong:

http://tinyurl.com/ejhh

Could (and did) get someone arrested in Houston - believed to be the first case of its kind in the US.

A Houston computer security analyst has been charged with hacking after demonstratingthe insecurity of a county courts wireless LAN:

http://tinyurl.com/ejhi

Same story - different twist:

http://tinyurl.com/ejhk

However, he was acquitted:

http://tinyurl.com/ejhl

I got a headache reading the following, but the key factor seems to focus on suffereing some kind of loss:

http://tinyurl.com/ejhn

Another hacking case acquitted:

"The First Circuit held that the unauthorized browsing of taxpayer files, although certainly inappropriate, cannot without more sustain a federal felony conviction in this case."

http://tinyurl.com/ejho

Hacking 101 anyone:

http://tinyurl.com/ejht

Okay, my research is finished. but I still don't know the answer. However, as it pertains to the original question, it seems that a precedent has been set with this Houston case, and in the absence of a SPECIFIC law that prohibits such activity, it seems that the "no harm, no foul" rule might apply. (But I wouldn't want to defend myself for doing it.) I might also suggest that I think a law will be (or very recently already has been) passed prohibiting this activity, perhaps in the name of National security. In my research, I ran across one person's opinion that said, "Al Queda is probably war driving America as we speak". That's a scary thought.

My conclusion: There's a HUGE opportunity for network security experts to fill a need that seems so widespread.

by admin

1. re:"A Houston computer security analyst has been charged with hacking after demonstrating the insecurity of a county courts wireless LAN:"

It should be illegal to be a dumbass.

2.re:" http://tinyurl.com/ejhn " It should be illegal to make court language illegible to the common person.

3. re: ""The First Circuit held that the unauthorized browsing of taxpayer files, although certainly inappropriate, cannot without more sustain a federal felony conviction in this case."" it should beESPECIALLY illegal to be a dumbass network administrator.

4. re: "Hacking 101 anyone: " It should be an automatic recovation of citizenship and a trip to Guantanamo Bay for any Network Administrator NOT to be an ethical hacker.

5. It should beillegal to make a discussion an extended research project!!!!! hehehehe (just kidding Max :)

by maxwell edison

There have to be better ways for me to spend my time........

.........like marketing myself as a network security expert. (You know, find a need and fill it.)

by ozmedias

Nobody is standing by the building with a sign advertising FREE Internet services. This signal is coming from Inside private property. I believe in this case, the user is parking in a buildings parking area after hours. In MOST cases depending onthe site layout itself, this is PRIVATE PROPERTY. I know if you park in my parking lot at night, the police will promptlt ask you to move on as it is private property that I lease to run my business from.

"Plus you could always make the case that you are not hacking and you are on public property not the companies private property so any connection that you happen to pickup while sitting in your car on public property is perfectly legal."

What you were driving down the road, your WIFi monitor said you have access, so you stop and use it? Better have a better lawyer than I do.

This brings me to the end all. No matter how right you "FEEL" you are, not matter how many scenarios you can produce, when it comes to corporate law, the law is on the side of the corporation, bottom line is that you don't need a good case and neither do I. In the matter of corporate law, the winner is almost ALWAYS the one who could provide the better lawyer.
Depending on the company you INFILTRATE(I like that word)you will need a LOT of money to pay for that lawyer.

The examples I gave are exact examples that have and will be used in court regarding a similar situation in the past. This is an invasion of company privacy, trespassing, theft and a massive list of other infractions.

by jim phelps

If you drive your truck right behind an 18-wheeler, and therefore benefit from the air draft which will pull your car along, are you stealing fuel from the truck driver?

If you fill up your car at 5 AM rather than 5 PM, and therefore benefit fromthe greater density of the gasoline (more will fit into your tank for the same money), is that stealing?

If you work the "cash" vs "tag only" line to your advantage, cutting in front of people continually till you get through the toll gate, is that illegal?

These things may be aggravating to some or to many, but I don't think there is anything illegal about the situations I've described.

However, "hotspotting" is a grayer area. I don't think using the bandwidth is illegal, but entering their network would be, if indeed those two issues can be treated separately.

by oz_media

In my post I used examples of personal property being stolen on the basis that "it wasn't nailed down, so I'll take it" as some of the arguments have seemed to point at this as a justification for stealing PAID network bandwidth.

Bandwidth is aproduct, just because you can't eat it, hold it or smoke it, doesn't mean it isn't a product that somebody pays for and owns the right to SOLE usage. If a company buys something and you help yourself to it, that is theft. This company hasn't controlled who can access the product but that doesn't make it legal for someone to use it - I.E. If someone leaves a car unlocked with keys in the ignition, it doesn't mean you can help yourself to it, even if if it is in a public street, you're still stealing property from someone.

Now that the IT market is dominated by people who use variables for reasoning instead of logic, it seems that EVERY problem has a "grey area". "It wasn't REALLY murder because if....or it is possible.....or another way of looking at it.

Bottom line, "someone was killed, somebody else killed that person and it was you."

Almost anything can be personally justified by agled reasoning, in this case, we are NOT talking variable or possibilities.
Many people seem to have looked at this as though it is being spilled onto the street and wasted, like an apple truck rolling over on a highway "grab em while you can". This is a paid for product that belongs to another company, your using it costs the company money.
The company has paid for something out of company funds. The provider has delivered it to the company, the company is then allowed to use it however it sees fit. YOU DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO TAKE IT THOUGH!!!

by jim phelps

Oz:

I think someone is pretending to be you. Have you seen the name two postings up? OzMEdias

Seriously, there are lots of gray areas in life. I believe that if our actions cost someone something, and they wouldn't approve if they knew about it, then that would be wrong.

However, if you are continually overanalyzing every single situation, to be sure that you aren't doing wrong, then you are going too far in that direction.

I simply do my best to do what is right, and if I believe that I'm doing wrong, I change my ways. And I do analyze my actions, I just try not to overanalyze them.

by admin

Because of liability we can't do employee sales anymore so we took them to a spot near the parking lot but on our property and set them down 'cuz we were tired and would complete taking them to the recycling area later and they all disappeared. I'm gonna kill wipe those bastards that took them up with a baseball bat (the true American sport- baseball!) now that I understand that since we paid for them, they were in fact STOLEN, I'm gonna make an insura

by admin

Because of liability we can't do employee sales anymore so we took them to a spot near the parking lot but on our property and set them down 'cuz we were tired and would complete taking them to the recycling area later and they all disappeared. I'm gonna kill wipe those bastards that took them up with a baseball bat (the true American sport- baseball!) now that I understand that since we paid for them, they were in fact STOLEN, I'm gonna make an insura

by admin

Because of liability we can't do employee sales anymore so we took them to a spot near the parking lot but on our property and set them down 'cuz we were tired and would complete taking them to the recycling area later and they all disappeared. I'm gonna kill wipe those bastards that took them up with a baseball bat (the true American sport- baseball!) now that I understand that since we paid for them, they were in fact STOLEN, I'm gonna make an insura

by generalist

In the example provided, the access to the wireless network was intentional. The person doing the access is skirting the edges of legality.

I just wonder that the law says about accidental access. Let's say that you like working outdoors duringwhen the weather is good. You haul your wireless laptop out to a picnic table and start it up while talking on the phone. As long as you get to the web page you use, you don't notice which wireless network you use.

You may think you are using your own network but are actually connected to another. It is kind of like trespassing in an area where the property lines are vague and the 'No Trespassing' signs are too small or missing altogether.

by admin

would determine whether you in fact where a threat or not and thus determine your fate. This way we could nab the ilk of fanatical religious and other terrorists, and yet let the common citizen go with a small fine to help fund our anti-terrorism efforts.

by oz_media

I this case, the user is deliberately driving to a location for the specific purpose of using bandwidth that he knows comes from an uinprotected wireless network. Not just a fluke connection when he already has one.

by admin

Sorry, I think I saw one of them and hit "enter" a few times grabbing my bat, anyway, the printers are down now so I'll finish this later.

by oz_media

I have my notebook setup under a similar alias, don't ask why, it's just the way it worked out at the time.

I'm not trying to overanalyze people's answers but I was getting frustrated at someone saying I used poor exaples and then went on to listexamples that were completely out of whack and didn't make any sense at all.

I think the best and most relevant example here is a bank machine. If i was at a bank machine and instead of it neatly sorting and sliding my bills into the slot, it started just spewing my money all over the place and people started picking it up, they are stealing my property.

If te bank machine gave you $10,000.00 instead of the $10.00 you wanted, this would also be stealing. People are trying to justify this bandwidth theft based on the fact that it is not secured or "NAILED DOWN". I feel that it doesn't need to be, and so do MOST laws, I'm not sure about the state laws in this particular case, the product is owned by a company and stolen from the company's place of business. It is the same as stealing a cell phone signal from someone.
although some may raise the MORAL issues of if it is there, I can take it, this is not a moral issue it is a criminal offence to steal someone else's property. This signal is paid for and therefore OWNED by the company, not the user.
Sorry if I pushed your buttons Jim, I just didn't like the way some people TRIED to justify their actions by looking at possible grey areas in a black and white isssue.

by oz_media

If your PC's were stolen EVEN from your parking lot, at least where I live, that is theft.
A company I used to be contracted to had the bitchy bosses wife handling operations. You couldn't get ANYTHING past her without it being a waste of compeny money. Right down to double sided printing to "save paper", even though we stressed the point of recycling paper that way trashes the printers, but that didn't matter it was wasted paper.
We had an old 486 that literally died, dead HD, outdated sound and graphics cards etc. I used it for spare parts when needed (if they actually worked) when they did inventory, she freaked out wondering what had happened to the PC. I told her it died and wasn't worth a dime so I parted it out to save new parts orders and time.
She had ro contact the insurance adjuster and change the claim values to suit a dead 486 with nothing installed ($1.50?). Bottom line, it is company property and insurable against theft etc.

For some reason, morals and legalities have slipped out the window in the IT industry when it comes to issues like this. Don't make youself the next inmate due to grey area reasoning in a blck and white situation.

by jim phelps

Oz:

You didn't push my buttons. I was actually trying to push your buttons.

All in fun, you understand.

by oz_media

Funny you mentioned Pat Boone, he was Ozzy's last neighbor, this the opening tune to the Osbournes is Pat Boone's version of Ozzy's "Crazy Train".

They were actually quite good friends that worked together on several songs along with Lemmy Kilmeister of Motorhead. Go figure, eh?

by syadm

The ISP:s are the ones who have a good reason to be angry.
The person who uses the "free" hotspot saves money which the ISP should have received in another way from that person.
I wonder if the company who shares it?s Internet access to everyone like this has the right to do so witten in their contract with their ISP.
What if your neighbour put up a big whitescreen in their garden, started to show a movie and the local police hammered on your door asking to see the receipt of payment for your view? I would never stop laughing.
IMHO it is completely the NetAdmins responsibility to restrict access to all resources within their domain, including WLAN. All else is politics.
If the Admin fail to do this then the Admin has gone haywire and all you can do is shorten the suffering.
Take him out on the backyard and shoot him and bury him on a shaded place, well away from servers, routers and POP sites.
R.I.P.
Be sure to mention the poor fate of the old Admin while screening/hiring a new Admin.
This will save time and ammo :-)

BR
/Tom

by oz_media

Can you imagine if that's how the world really worked?
I mean, an ISP just spewing a signal to anyone? The ISP shouldn't care at all, ADSL is billed by usage not time. ISDN is billed by time, in which case the overage is billed to the customer.
You're right about the Admin, he's letting it leak and costing his company money.

As for the whole pay-per view thing, it's only legal if the person projecting it isn't charging for it.

by admin

You've hit the proverbial nail quite solidly on the head IMHO Tom. Good Job! :)

by thechas

After looking at a number of the posts to this discussion, the real problem that this issue brings up is the current state of moral decay in the US, if not the world.

There is a 'revisionist' morality that follows the principle that if an activity is not specifically illegal, AND no one is watching, then what I do is fine.

The first tenant of liberty is responsibility.

If you do not want your freedoms restricted, it is your responsibility to use them with do respect for the freedoms ofothers.

Anytime you use someone else's property without their permission, you are violating the respect that that individual deserves.

Be it accessing an unprotected wireless LAN, or downloading music files, the activity can not be justified on a moral basis of mutual respect for others.

If you do not respect others, how can you respect yourself?

The question we need to ask, is:
If this was my work product, property, business, network, etc, would I want someone to do with it what Iam doing with it?

If you would not freely allow anyone who wanders by to access your wireless LAN, why would you think it acceptable to access someone else's wireless LAN?

Every posting here that gives reasons why you should be able to access an unprotected WLAN is "situational ethics".

Unless a life is on the line, situational ethics should never apply!

Chas

by oz_media

I dunno how many posts I put up here after researching Canadian Laws (asking my brother, same thing). Your post hits it where it hurts, LIBERTY!! Well done Chas, I could speak legally for days and not get through. One mention of Liberty and the whold thing comes into moral perspective. Actually, I am stunned at all the people who justlfy their actions based on the inability for the lan admin to not secure the LAN, which is so irrelevant it isn't funny.
This practice is illeagle yet a simple poke at morals seems to straighten out any doubts of legality issues.
Cheers!

by jim phelps

I have to agree with Chaz and Oz.

We have become a society (not just the US, but Western society in general) which gets away with as much as it can. As long as I can double talk my way through the situation, then I "got over".

Not to hit a real hot button with some (and therefore get the eveready bunny running, eh Oz!), but Bill Clinton, in his Monica Lewinsky situation, used every trick in the book to wiggle out of that one. In the end he succeeded because of gutless democrats in the US Senate. He actually broke the law (and I'm not referring to his escapades with Monica, but rather lying under oath and things like that), and was impeached (put on trial), but escaped punishment.

And now there are a lot of young Americans who have seen the President do it, and now they are encouraged that if they can fast talk and wiggle their way out of something, then they "got over" and everything is ok.

"What, tap into a wireless network and use someone else's resources without authorization? Of course! I'm doing nothing wrong, because no one will ever know or catch me."

"What, keep the extra change the cashier inadvertently gave me? Of course! I'm doing nothing wrong, because no one will ever know or catch me."

If I ever caught my son or daughter keeping the extra change, I'd march them into the store and make them apologize to the store manager, and hand over the money.

These days, though, parents aren't doing that with their kids, and so the kids never learn, and that's the primary reason we have so many dishonest adults.

by syadm

Chas wrote:
"There is a 'revisionist' morality that follows the principle that if an activity is not specifically illegal, AND no one is watching, then what I do is fine."

When yuo need a toilet in a hurry, is it(morally) ok to just walk in and use the first free toilet on any hotel or gas station?
You are using someones toilet because it is available, and not explicitly forbidden to use.
Im not sure if it is ok but i am sure that most of us has used that option several times.
Now..
When someone gains acess to Internet via a DHCP on a poorly secured WLAN them people here are very thoughtful about the moral. Hmmm..
Whats the big difference?
In a near future i hope to see Internet access via WLANs as public service, maybe even free of charge(sponsored), in the nordic region where i live.

WLAN can be secure, and big too. Pls see the article in following link(PDF).
http://www.radionet.fi/res/292/Vantaan_Energia_Eng.pdf

BR
/Tom

by jim phelps

Perhaps you could use the "I-LU" (pardon my spelling, Brits) and kill two birds with one stone! (public toilet and internet connection all in one)

Wasn't that a hoot!

Personally, I wouldn't use such a thing, because there's no telling how dirty were the hands which used the keyboard and mouse before you.

by thechas

Comparing the use public and semi-public restroom facilities to accessing someone else's WLAN is an excellent example of the exact moral decay I was referring to.

In the US anyway, it is established practice that unless posted otherwise that any restroom accessible from a public area of a business can be used by any member of the public.

When you get in areas where this PRIVILEGE is abused, you start to see signs (often on the front door) stating that there are NO public restrooms.

If you use a restroom where you are not a customer, and the business has posted a no public facilities sign, you can be liable for trespass.

The logic flaw is that you cannot conclude that because service a is available and allowed, service b if available is allowed.

We have become too enamored with the ends justifying the means, and finding ways to justify our immoral actions.

If we all acted in a just and moral manner that respects the rights of others, we would need no laws or law enforcement.

Laws and restrictions of freedoms happen when someone who is politically connected feels that they have been wronged.

Chas

by mpd881

Thank you all for your input. While I'm still a bit confused over all of it, I think I'm going to inform him that he'd be an idiot to try it. Until there is something more definate on the books as to whether or not it is legal, he's best to stop.

I think the point that had the biggest influence is the question of how the company is being billed. If it is for the amount of total bandwidth used, I would consider that stealing. Since he really has no idea (without asking, and that is just asking for trouble)the best bet would be just to knock it off and find a public library.

Although, what do you all think about him calling the company and telling them that the internet is insecure, so the admin can fix it?

Bob

by oz_media

" Although, what do you all think about him calling the company and telling them that the internet is insecure, so the admin can fix it? "

A VERY nobel idea. The company may even ask him a few questions about his accessibility and end up tellinghim (due to his unpluged situation) that he is welcome to use it after hours, you never know, people in rural communities are often a little friendlier and welcoming to their neighbours than in larger cities.

by jim phelps

>Although, what do you all think about him calling the company and telling them that the internet is insecure, so the admin can fix it?

>>A VERY nobel idea. The company may even ask him a few questions about his accessibility and end up telling him (due to his unpluged situation) that he is welcome to use it after hours, you never know, people in rural communities are often a little friendlier and welcoming to their neighbours than in larger cities.

They might throw him in jail, too, forhijacking their signal.

If I was the guy who had hijacked the signal, and then I realized that what I did was wrong, I'd simply stop doing it, and keep my mouth shut. I'd be thankful that I didn't get caught doing something really dumb, and I'd then try to disappear into the ether...

by hal 9000

I have to agree fully here with Jim it is the moral decay that is the biggest threat to our society.

Unfortuantly it appears to be getting worse rather than betterso I don't know where it will all end up.

But it is time for a change to occureand the sooner the better.

by oz_media

That's absolutely F'n hilarious Jim.
The "New Intel I-Loo"
"Word while you Turd", "SPAM from the CAN", I LOVE IT !!

Personally, I think comparing theft of a company's internet signal and using a public washroom are not even slightly similarin any way.
The signal isn't being advertised on the company's front door as an ALL ACCESS AREA!

by cactus pete

I just want to get the opinion from both sides a little more clear on this...

I kinda like the washroom comparison, actually. A hotel will usually allow anyone to walk in and go to just about any of the 'common areas' with no concern. That probably means the lobby's washrooms, too. But they don't advertise that they have public restrooms. It's a sort of unsaid complimentary thing. [Of course, there are probably actually laws stating that they have to be there, and public, but this is getting beyond my point.]

Now, don't we - in the IT industry - refer to the signal as "advertising" the network? There really isn't a way to know that a company doesn't intend the signal to be public, in fact. And the wavelength is public, if I'm not mistaken. [Someone please let me know if I am mistaken.]

That aside, simply grabbing the advertised connection is not illegal. Your machine automatically accepting DHCP registries is not illegal.

And in fact, I submit that if you were stopped in traffic in front of this company [maybe the road is blocked by a moose/car accident], with your laptop open, and your email client open, and suddenly you get a new mail notification because you've automatically connected to the internet through this wireless signal eminating from an unsecure network... I don't think anyone would be convicted in this case. No, it's really not likely, but it's plausible.

So, where would this become breaking the law? Obviously, it's immoral to repeatedly return to the site and knowingly take advantage of the system. But exactly where does it become illegal, assuming that the company pays a flat monthly rate to the ISP?

by thechas

Here in the US, there are many forms of open communications where it is illegal for a third party to intercept and monitor the signal. Unless, you have permission from 1 of the parties, or a court wire-tap order.

This is true for cordless phones and cell phones.
(This is why there are gaps in what frequencies a personal radio frequency scanner can receive.)

As far as the public airways go, I don't see where a wireless network would be any different.

If you stumble onto the signal, disconnect as soon as you are aware that you have tapped into an unknown network.

The exact point of illegality would be somewhere between when you became aware that you were connected to someone else's network, and returning to the area to see if you could access the network again.

Chas

by cactus pete

Also, it just sorta popped into my head, in the [admittedly extreme] case presented above, would anyone feel compelled to pull their wireless card out, pull into the parking lot, and pull out a loonie [or a couple of quarters] from their pocket and give it to the company for inadvertently using some of their bits?

by oz_media

"And in fact, I submit that if you were stopped in traffic in front of this company [maybe the road is blocked by a moose/car accident], with your laptop open, and your email client open, and suddenly you get a new mail notification because you've automatically connected to the internet through this wireless signal eminating from an unsecure network... I don't think anyone would be convicted in this case. No, it's really not likely, but it's plausible."

You're right, but that isn't the case at hand.

"Now, don't we - in the IT industry - refer to the signal as "advertising" the network? There really isn't a way to know that a company doesn't intend the signal to be public, in fact. And the wavelength is public, if I'm not mistaken."
Seeing as the examples are so far fetched now, If I was working outside with ny notebook connected by a long CAT5 to the LAN and then locked up while leaving the connection dangling out the window, (told you it was far fetched), would that be giving your or as you say "Advertising" a free signal for all to use? Of course not.

"So, where would this become breaking the law? Obviously, it's immoral to repeatedly return to the site and knowingly take advantage of the system."
This is EXACTLYwhat the user is doing.

"But exactly where does it become illegal, assuming that the company pays a flat monthly rate to the ISP?"
As I've said before, MOST managed business DSL lines, are NOT billed on a flat monthly cost but by usage. This may cost the company hundreds of dollars each month, I consider taking money from anyone, unless offered, theft. I think most people and certainly judges do too.

by oz_media

Many people have said it would be considered legal if the person was unsuspecting and inadvertently picking up the signal. A somewhat weak argument AFTER being caught and not reporting it.
I think that stand would have some strength to it if you had actually reported, driving by and getting a signal. The user doesn't need to mention that he has been using the signal, just that he noticed it is there and perhapse it is from their building. This more informative approach should be acceptable. Plus you are doing the good deed this way and will look like an upstanding neighbour as opposed to a sneaky theif who didn't say anything.

by cactus pete

If some conscience-clearing is all that's desired, just place an anonymous call, or create a fake hotmail account, etc... You don't get the potential present of them allowing you to continue hijacking the signal, but an offer like that might just be to see if your MAC address matches what they've been seeing in the logs...

by oz_media

"but an offer like that might just be to see if your MAC address matches what they've been seeing in the logs"

I really don't think this company would even know they have log files.
I still don't see the fear of walking up to the owner opening up you rnotebook and saying "Hey, look at this!" Then surf to a porn site of your choosing and say "Hey, you know this is through YOUR network?, You might want to look into that, I can help secure this if you like."

Not enough salesmen, too many techs here or what ?? Given the amount of scratching and clawing most of you have to go through to get new hardware or software approved, I figured your presentation and sales skills would prevail over an anonymous email from a BS account. C'mon guys!!

by hal 9000

Is it is in a rural area and in these areas most people know each others business anyway. But having said that the police probably haven't asked him what he's doing because they already know who he is and consider him as an upstanding memeber of thecomunity.

The only honerable thing to do here would to inform the business and let them fix the mess up. All to often in these type of business someone is appointed as System Admin without having any qualifactions and they learn as they go along.It is most likely that so far no one has noticed what been going on as they don't know how to read the logs or whatever and in this case they don't know how to tie the system down.

Or then again some person working there could have put in a transceiver without the Sys Admin knowing. ANyway the thing should be tied down if only for the sake of the company.

by oz_media

"Click START before you Fart" , "Stack Dumping and Wiping for the Gastronomically Challenged", "Enabling right-click flushing 101", "Locking out intruders-the pay a penny method", "diving in to a new project - sink or swim" aaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrgh....too much information...just can't compute.

by cactus pete

Perhaps this is a regional difference, but every DSL subscription I've seen [I'm in the US] has been flat rate. For that matter, most business class lines [not ISDN, of course] these days are. No, not all, but most, I think in the US are flat rate.

If Bob mentioned where he is, I don't recall it, so I'm babbling from my own point of view.

So my question still stands - Exactly when/where does the law get broken if the ISP is charging a flat rate? I'm not asking when is it immoral, but illegal.

For instance... He's wandered into the network coverage. OK. He's got his laptop on and the wireless connection is available. OK. His machine has accepted network connectivity [IP address, etc]. OK? He's on the web, getting email or whatever. Not ok, likely. He comes back everyday for a week because he noticed this site gives him free internet access. Not OK.

Where does anyone else draw the line? I'm not sure, so I'm asking.

by cactus pete

The admin(s) might not even know that the wireless network is there! Who knows if some half-knowledgable user didn't figure that he could just install it himself and keep the AP out of sight...

by oz_media

I think there are a few ISP who offer unlimited monthly usage for DSL yet I don't see anyone staying in business too long doing this for a managed service. I can get an unlimited Telus line (even the business lines) for about $40.00/mo. They are acrappy local Telco though, you get what you pay for.

Our business class ISP offers service right down the West coast, Canada>USA. They offer 10gigs of Managed/Guranteed bandwidth for $80.00/mo. but overage is billed.

Even @Home CABLE lines here have a 20GIG maximum. If you go over they usually send you a notice the first one or two times, after that, they send the $400.00 invoice out.
It all used to be done on an unlimited system, but since Kazaa and Hackers got into peoples PC's bandwidth has become restricted.

I know that people have limitations on bandwidth in some parts of the US as well, a friend was running a server for file sharing in Iowa, once his bandwidth went over 20GIGS/mo, he got an invoice for over $300.00 worth of overage along with a nasty "shut down your file sharing or you will be cut" message.

by oz_media

For the amount of people that read while sitting on the LOO, I am surprised we don't have the Internet enabled lavatory yet! The lid could lift forward instead of backward. You would straddle the seat and the underneath of the lid would have a 12"touch screen LCD, read the paper, do the crossword, surf porn, play games.

So, get to the drawing board and see what you can come up with.

Thanks alot Jim, I'll be on that one for a while now!

guess it gives a whole new meaning to "I PEE Telephony." ....sorry

by zlitocook

But the makers of WIFI cards and access points should ship with security on. Most if not all ship with it off, because they think the people buying it are not smart enough to use it if its on. I can stop at a secured WAP and in a few ticks, use a few freeware programs and be into the WLAN. I do not do this to get any info from the site! I am a person who likes to learn new technology and keep myself informed. I am not a hacker/cracker! I just like/need to keep up with any new technology.

by zlitocook

There is and will be hundreds if not more in the next few years. They are free and are around schools, libarys, airports ect., With the new WLAN you can use it up to 3 miles now.

by oz_media

We have several public access points that Bell Canada had set up as a test here.

far from the discussion though.

by thechas

I have to agree with dpetrak, the Admin and owner may be totally in the dark about the wireless network.

I was imagining a dedicated smoker who no longer is allowed to smoke in his office setting up a WLAN so that he could use his laptop in the smoking room.

So, yes it would be a good idea to inform the company of their security leak.

I think that you might have to call the company and ask to speak with the IT manager or network Admin.

Many firms pitch snail mail with no recipient name.

E-mail would only work if the firm has a web site with a mail link.
(Otherwise, you would need to browse the network to get someones address.)

I know first hand that many firms won't let you past the receptionist without a name and appointment.

(Funny to think that they might have better security to stop a visitor then they have on their network!)

Chas

by tedw_sd

You are off track the WLAN owner did not advertise.
The use of the network was not freely advertised
as you would throw money in the street.
If you displayed your wallet but did not throw the money in the street it would be theft if someone took the money.

by mpd881

I got an email from him and he said he'd "take it under counsel". What else could I expect.

He then told me of a plan to get a DSL account and talk a local business (coffee shop etc) into letting him set it up there and connect a wireless AP there for the community to surf for free. He claims he spoke with the ISP and they have no problem with that (sounds a bit fishy to me).

His main concern is: If a less-than-savory individual comes into the coffee shop or whatever it will be, connects to the internet and downloads kiddie porn or solicits some juvenile into running away with him, will he be held liable? The account would be under his name with, likely, no chance of tracing it to the other person. My gut instinct would be, yes, he could in some way be held liable. What do you all think?

He compared it to someone getting shot in your yard. Even though it's (the yard) there because of you, you can't be held responsible if someone else, without your knowledge/permission, does the shooting. Personally, I think that is hogwash.

by hal 9000

I wouldn't like to pay the legal bill to try to prove it. But he is wrong in comparing it to someone getting shot in your yard while it is true that you can't be held responsible for someones else actions if however that person was shot with your firearm then it would be a whole different ball of wax and this is what would be happening in this case. It would be his account that had the data transfered to it and it would be him held resonsible for what was going on.

It need not be kiddy porneither as there are a whole lot of things that could upset the wrong people like some deranged person sending an E-Mail threating to fly a plane into some building or something like that he would then have a lot of explaning to do and it wouldn't then matter in which country he was in.

by maxwell edison

I'm rather skeptical, and I don't necessarily believe everything I read. Just because this guy lives out in the boonies, doesn't mean he has NO Internet options. What about satellite? I don't know for sure, but is there anyplace on the face of the earth that couldn't get satellite access? What about in the U.S or any other major country? Quite frankly, I don't buy the premise of the question. Maybe he's too cheap to buy it, but I'd bet he could if he wanted to.

Is it ethical to take something from someone without their permission or knowledge - even if no harm is done? Well, that's a no-brainer. Of course not. Just because I don't have signs or a fence around my yard, doesn't mean you can use it. You shouldn't use my yard or my network.

Is it legal? It's interesting to see the comments that suggest that laws may or may not define something as legal. In the U.S., it actually works the other way around. Everything is legal (or constitutional) unless specifically stated otherwise. Are there specific laws that state a person can't tap into a wireless computer network? I'm no lawyer, but I don't think so. I suppose there are some other laws that "could" apply, but I don't think there's anything specific, at least not that I found. I even found a reference to a person being arrested (see above posts) and who appeared in court for such a thing - and he was acquitted. (And this was the only one I found.) Could the guy get arrested by some young and zealous cop on some obscure charge, spend the night in jail, share the toilet in the corner with a bunch of thugs and drunks, sleep all night - awake - watching his backside, and be forced to post bail the next morning - only to have the charges dismissed by a district attorneywho doesn't want to spend the county's resources on a "test case"? Yup.

Bottom line: Buy a satellite dish.

by jellimonsta

Maybe the punishment for this kind of action should simply be a night in jail with a bunch of drunks and thugs?
What is the price on a rectum these day?! :oP

by oz_media

"spend the night in jail, share the toilet in the corner with a bunch of thugs and drunks"

We're really not all that bad. You don't even have to worry about leaving the seat down, there isn't one. Drunk and thugs make great friends sometimes.Maybe even a new application for MS I-Loo!You could search for leagal advice while paying the price.
I'm gonna let that one go sooner or later.

by deadly ernest

technically, as previously pointed out, it is theft of a resource. However, in some places the current laws do NOT cover such resources. I know in NSW, Australia the state govt is looking at how to word such an issue. Recent laws re hacking into someones databases would cover charging your friend if he did that, but using an unsecured connection to access the Internet falls into a grey area in NSW at present as the company has to inform him that he is NOT to use their link without approval before they can do much more until the laws catch up with the situation.

Don't worry it wont be long before it will be a hanging offence.

by oz_media

"We've found a witch, may we burn her?" Monty Pythons, The Holy Grail

If I was to catch someone, behind my house, using my Wireless access point, I'd burn the loser as he stood.

Of course, I'd be thrown in jail, this is Canada, we can't set fire to someone for trespassing as you can in some countries. It would be nice to do though, it costs ME money, why should I let someone use my access?

by hal 9000

Why put yourself in the position where someone can steal from you in the first place?

Yes wirless are handy but they arn't secure and even Symantec at a recent Intruders Conference insists that they don't consider Wireless networks as a secure structure and they don't even recomend any of their software to prevent this from occurring or for that matter logging the intrusion.

by oz_media

I agree 100% did I say something to make you ffel otherwise? I've always stated that wireless is insecure, but scooping bandwidth from someone who pays by the gig is theft. If it is bought by me, and then taken from me without me knowing, that is theft. If I leave my keys in the car, does that mean you can take it?

by djent

No! It means you are a fool and somebody will take it, so don't leave your keys. The justice systems will never stop theft, only punish some of the theives.

by oz_media

Using Hotspots is the same as stealing property from someone. IT IS THEFT, full stop.

by hal 9000

That you have not only bought a car that doesn't require keys but aslo has no form of locking ability either.

I know that you don't use wireless but those that do get what they desirve and there have been a few places where I've gone into and found Wireless cards installed by users so they can gain access tothe network/internet connection without the Admins Knolledge. These are generally installed in a old LT and placed in a suspended celling or some other similar out of the way place so now a necessary tool is also a PDA with wireless conectivity so I can walk around a business just to check out that I can't get access to the netork. It is amasing what some workers will do just to gain some form of recompence from their bosses which they are under the mistaken belief that they desirve.
Perhaps that what is going on here but I still stand by my original comment that someone should inform the company and if they are at all worried they will take the necessary steps to secure their system.
This is a perfect example where lack of knolledge isn't bliss.

by oz_media

You seem to pretty much agree with the masses that it is wrong and something should be said about it. I think that with the cost of access dropping so uch these days and DSl in almost every home in North America (or at least it seems that way) that there is even a need to steal bandwidth. What do you gain? It's like the whole hacker thing, a freidn of mine is a security programmer that writes some of the most robust PKI code around. He is sought out worldwide and highly esteemed as the guy to secure your bank, law firm government network etc.

He is also a highly active hacker that will get into EVERYTHING you can think of. He simply opens the door, looks around and says "hey I did it again". Although this is criminal, he is not costing anyone money or causing any grief, in and out, done deal.

I see the same with Wireless with a few exceptions, people get access just to say "hey I found access" they may surf a bit but surfnig from your car isn't fun. The main thing is that they are costnig people money by using PAID bandwidth. To this I say, shoot the bastard. OK,, slap on the wrist, but say something.

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