IT Employment
I am curious as to what others think of War driving or hacking wireless networks. Here is what I mean: If I drive around with a wireless anttenna and discovery an open network and decide to explore it for educational purposes. And possibly use some bandwith for internet.
Is this illegal?
by generalist
I would say that driving around and finding open wireless networks would be legal. After all, some groups are intentionally setting up open wireless networks for their 'customers' and their customer base is wide open.
What you do with the network connection is another story. Limited Internet work on 'safe' topics would be fine as long as you don't abuse it with massive downloads. Using it to set up a porn site or access 'restricted' topics would be unethical and possibly illegal.
Of course, it will start to vary from place to place as problems are encountered. And it is likely that a hodgepodge of conflicting laws will be established as a result of lawmakers responding to the problems.
Just wait until you have a case where a wireless signal crosses jurisdictional borders that have vastly different laws on wardriving. It could be 'amusing'.
If you just happend to pick up a signal and use it to browse the internet, I dont think that is illegal. It is always possible the network is there for public use anyway.
However, if you start browsing around the network looking at machines andtheir contents, then that is going to cross the line, even if you mean no harm and are just curious.
by thechas
In my opinion, persons who seek out and hack into data networks should be drawn and quartered.
There is no legitimate reason for you to seek out anyones wireless network.
As in all areas of new technology, the laws lag behind the technology.
Let me ask you, how would you feel if just anyone stopped by your house and looked through your personal papers and possessions for "educational purposes"?
Other then the fact that you did not physically enter the building where the wireless network was connected, there is no significant difference.
There are laws in the US that pertain to using various communication resources without the consent and permission of the owner of the resource. It would not be much of a stretch to apply some of these laws to hackers sniffing out open ports on wireless networks.
With the Patriot act, and other Homeland Security legislation, your activities can be classified as hacking. As such, you could be subject to Federal prosecution.
Chas
by tomsal
Drawn and quartered, that's gotta hurt!!!
But I share the general sentiment of TheChas.
However, its a little different with wireless networks because I'm one of those diehard believers that wireless STILL isn't secure for anything, therefore I don't consider wireless a "real" or genuine option for any network connection intended for any level of serious business related application.
Its a tech hobbyist toy right now, or a great way to not have "ugly wires" connect your kids computer to AOL so they can do important stuff like chat for 5 hours a day. ;)
PS. Anyone who calls themself an IT professional and purposefully uses AOL as their ISP should also be drawn and quartered. ;)
But anyway, its different with wireless because a part of me has this "what did you expect" mentality towards people who build business networks on current wireless technology. I kind of feeling like saying "DUH!" to them when they go be red with anger that someone hacked into their network from the parking lot across the street.
That's why I fight wireless use here -- the sales people think its cool, but they don't know technology or have any clue about security issues.
by dennisbv
by thechas
While I applaud your attempt at 'public service', you need to at least refine your methods.
If you can come up with a method to 'politely' notify the network owner of their security problem, I might accept your methods.
Part of the problem is that many of the wireless networks are being set up by users with no knowledge or idea of the problems they have created.
First, we need to dispel the myth that wireless networks are secure simply because they can be.
Next, how about requiring a cert for anyone purchasing wireless hardware?
That would go a long way on solving the ignorance issue.
Still, the issue remains that if you get the attention of the wrong individual, you could be declared a hacker per the "Patriot Act".
Chas
by cactus pete
I agree that stealing is wrong, and that people should secure their networks, but I brainstormed this idea:
If it isn't illegal for someone to look through your window, or that of a commercial entity [like a bar] and watch your TV, then would it be difficult to enforce someone looking in your wireless connection and seeing what they can see?
by jkaras
Well I feel that your anology falls under the category of peeping tom/voyuerism. The difference is, that on a network it is personal information that is not intended for the purpose for public knowledge. This information could be used to exploit forgain, vs a public broadcast shown on everyone's tv. Everyone will agree that it is creepy to peer into someone's space for amusement (despite reality tv boom), it's about intent not the action that is in question. What's your purpose for peering into someone's window? Or a network? It certainly isnt about curiosity, it's intrusion, breaking and entering thrill. Ego that you possess superior knowledge to get in get out without them knowing (territorial pissing like graffiti leaving a mark if detected that cannot be traced to you)If you want to be a bad boy so bad break into a house and stare down a shotgun barrel of a pissed father and say "I was just curious to test security, I ment no harm."
I might be a little harsh on your anology, but I can see how it would be very difficult to prosecute looking in and not taking any info, if that was your intent of your posting. If it was....hmmm...You got me there but still believe it cannot be proven that hacking into another's network was byaccident, but on purpose making you guilty of intrusion. OOps I slipped into my computer and whammo I connected to this other network, or there was a power surge and.. or my favorite I was creating a new connection and put a 5 where a 3 should have been... excuses never work.
by mrafrohead
We are talking FEDERAL POUND ME IN THE ASS PRISON OFFENSE.
Personally, I think that anyone that is using a Wireless network and is not smart enough to secure it, deserves to have their bandwidth leeched.
But my opinion and the law don't alwaysagree. And this time, the law will get ya if you're caught.
Remember, after the Patriot Act. Hackers are now "terrorists". Terrorists are subject to "special" circumstances and courts and all that great stuff.
Person to person, dork around with their networks till they figure it out and secure them. Weak networks work against all of us when they're broken into and used against us. The "admins" need to secure their stuff and you're "borrowing" thier bandwidth may get them looking and then to actually fix the problem.
Just DONT get caught!
Mrafrohead
by ron vought
by admin
usually. Most isp's have restrictions on who can access the internet you pay for if you l;ook closely, many now say you cannot let it be used publically via wireless even with permission. Check the fine print.
I don't think the poster was loggingon to the internet ever or even trying to get free access. The WAP at the business sent out a signal that said: "woohoo! Look at me! I'm open!" so the poster went and looked and sure enough it was. Was it a public network since it broadcast itself as an open network? The poster looked to see, and then when they realized it was a BUSINESS network not intended to be open they walked out. They never hurt anything, tried to access the internet ever or used anything. It's like going through an open door in a mall and realizing you've stumbled into the kitchen, so instead of stealing the knives, he asks whether he should tell the cook the door is unlocked so no one else comes in and steals something. I would say tell the cook, but since in this case it's a network admin and they are usually bastards, I would say maybe he should be careful. This hardly makes him a criminal though.... This poster did exactly the right thing. It's not his fault that the admin is a totally incompetant loser and IME these are exactly the sorts of admins that get the most uptight- the totally incompetent ones that want the government or some big shining man with a big gun to save them from the problems that 15 mins. with a brain would have prevented. This kid should get a medal for this behavior. they are learning, they caused no damage, and this person obviously has a good conscience.
by admin
"There is no cut and dry answer to this question, but simply driving around a
city searching for the existence of wireless networks, with no ulterior
motive cannot be deemed illegal. However, if you are searching for a place to
steal internet access, or commit computer crimes then the wardriving you
performed was done in a malicious manner and could be treated as such in
court. Don't forget in the US, simply receiving radio transmissions on the
Cellular telephone frequencies (895-925 MHZ)is illegal, a similar law could
be written to discourage this, but this isn't likely.
As with any questionable activity, there are always two sides. Whether you
agree or disagree with the whole practice makes no difference to me, but in
the future, legal proceedings and violations may be related to wardriving.
Technology is not bound to ethics. It is the application and use (or abuse)
of that technology that brings ethics into it. To get back to the question
this technology is not really new (802.11 IEEE Standard - 1997), but this is
the peak of it's popularity. And at this peak it's good to get the kinks
worked out, and the security of wireless Ethernet is a pretty huge kink.
WEP(Wired Equivalent Privacy) uses up to 128-bit RC4encryption, but it was
implemented wrong, so now it makes no difference whether or not you use it,
it's vulnerable. There are few built-in mechanisms that provide security, not
broadcasting the ESSID is a start, but a sniffer can pick it up, anything
else is left to other 3rd-party devices. "
^From www.wardriving.com
by dave.mc
The actual attempt to sniff a network can be viewed as illegal. The attempt to access the network is illegal.
It get ugly when the company near you has a more powerful access point than your own, and an open network. Is the incidental use of thebandwidth illegal or not?
by admin
by your definition illegal? If there is no breach of internet access agreements etc., and a coffehouse or person runs a publically posted free facility, are you breaking the law to seek it out? win XP "sniffs" by default, is this illegal? Not even getting into the (in)sanity of 2.4 as an rf for business use, I didn't think it was illegal by any means to recieve a public network transmission, especially one that may or may not be private.
I don't have a publically broadcasted message tellingeveryone my front door is not only unlocked, but wide open, but if I did, certainly some of the responsibility if someone stole something would be mine. It is somewhat an attractive nuisance to broadcast a signal advertising that you are open and then cry foul.
On the other hand, once you see it is locked or private- Stay Out! It's not that hard to set up the initial transmissions to do this as an admin.
Some waps are like public parks, some are like private residences or businesses. Driving by and looking for the public areas certainly should not be illegal IMO.
by admin
My own opinion, this will be regulated as cell phone technology is at some point. Probably will need to move to a different frequency though...
Remember that networking is often a 2 way street. Do it on the sidewalk near my house, or even with adirectional antenna and I'm pretty secure from having you ever touch the rest of my network, however, be warned, I am logging and monitoring you as well when you log into my system. That open wap is sweet like suger and draws in all sorts of information I would never get otherwise. Eventually, I want to help develop a program that downloads automatically from all your open shares upon login- so...... I'm sure others are doing this as well. Wardrivers think when they log in they are taking something, but actually an open wap is a way to get stuff from you too! Be aware of this, that open wap at a business could have more on you than just your mac address and theChas is right..... there will most likely be enforcement someday. If it's like Napster, you and your portabox could be hunted down like criminals if you go beyond the entrance and especially if you damage\steal anything- including internet access.... soo..... consider all this and make your own decisions :)
by mrafrohead
Admin
I think you're telling us that you're running a honeypot to watch users as they log into your network???
If so - please read this as it may pertain to you in your situation. I know, it's off topic, but at the same time, it may not be.
http://www.securityfocus.com/news/4004
Also - with what you're saying that you do there Admin. That's a pretty damned neato idear, and I'm a thinkin' that I may have to give that a whirl myself. I haven't thought of it from that angle. But now that you got me thinking about it. I wouldn't mind seeing who is trying to watch also ;)
Mrafrohead
by admin
More like an open sharing platform, a docking of ships perhaps. We both get to find useful or useless information, files etc. and of course, as in all of life, are free to chose what we protect as private and what we share as public.
When I go to a civic function, or the workplace, I may share personal information, but not private information. Some people may be more open than others, and some too open or too private, but everyone is a mix.
It is not that I wish to trap you, or brand you with a mark or have you arrested etc. and are looking for things to back up my suspicians, in this way it is not a "honeypot". I just look at it as someone stopping by for a chat in the wired. They decide what is public and private and I respect that. I will not crack or push it beyond what they have chosen to share openly.
Perhaps though, after reading the article, I will now post a logon banner saying some like the beginning of many CounterStrike games: "By logging on you are agreeing to having your hardisk scanned...." or something to that effect :)
by jkaras
by generalist
Intentional wardriving has a set of implications for the person doing the wardriving.
But what about those people who, in the comfort of their own home, find that they have wireless access as the result of a neighbor setting up a wireless network. They effectively have an access point shoved into their face and have to take measures to avoid it.
In theory, current and future laws will handle such access so that accidental wardrivers aren't punished and that wireless access providers don't swamp their neighbors. But I suspect that there will be cases where accidental wardrivers will get into trouble because they cause problems while trying to figure out what the heck is happening to their normal wireless access.
The only way I see you being an accidental wireless bandit is if you set up your own wireless network but pick up a neighbors.
Nobody accidently buys a wireless card and installs it without a WAP or Wireless router.
The only exception would beyou take home your laptop from work, or buy a new laptop with it build in. Either way, you are still joining that wireless network on purpose.
by generalist
The exception that you mentioned describes a situation I encountered recently.
A relative computer novice was allocated a wireless laptop for their use. The laptop picked up the wireless connection of a neighboring organization's network. Giventhe novice's skill level, it is quite likely that he would have accessed the other network thinking it was the proper one.
I suspect that there are a number of cases like this where people who are not trained in networking are accessing the 'wrong' wireless networks accidentally. I also suspect that there are a number of cases where the people providing wireless network access are not expert enough to add the proper controls.
That should, in time, change as people learn more. But even then, accidents happen.
by djent
by james goerke
Here's my take on wardriving. WAP are programmed to use a range of frequencies which fall under the FCC part 15 rules. Basically, it says that any and all devices must be able to accept any and all interference, even if its not wanted. Now, this is accept, not admit. So, if, for example, a resident sets up a wireless network off the cable modem in their house and does not secure the network with proper administrative and security measures then they are effectively saying it is alright for anyone in the public to be admitted to their network. So, now comes the moral dilema. If a hacker finds a open network, are the files available on that network admittable as well. Well, I personally believe in personal responsibility for everything, so if a hacker finds your network open and obvious then its your fault. Now, if a hacker finds your network and breaks your security and then steals your files then thats a crime. Bottom line is, if you leave your network open, under current FCC law, its fair game for anything and anything that happens to your bandwidth/data is your responsibility since you were the one that let your network open. However, if your network is accessed against your will and your data comprimised then I believe you have legal grounds for punishment of the attacker.
James
by jereg
The wireless network device is designed to be a short distance, public broadcast. It can, and should, be able to have any compatable device connect to it. That's what makes networking possible. It what you do with it that matters.
Some years ago, we sometimes used a baby monitor at home. It seems that a house a few doors up the street used the same system. When ever we turned ours on, we heard them. This was as designed, short distance broadcasting. The monitor had a channel switch, so we would change to another channel. They heard their baby, we heard ours. Anyone driving past with a moble receiver chould hear either of us.
The point is, driving past, and picking up a signal is within the design paramaters. But if you do ANYTHING else,you are trespassing and/or stealing. For instance, looking through files is just like going into a house and looking through drawers. That's a no-no. Same with using bandwith. If my system runs slower because you're taking my signal, I've suffered damages, and you are responsible.
by mrafrohead
One of the things that I was reading is that by the end of this year I believe, wireless devices will actually start to ship with their security enabled as default instead of as an option to be enabled. That will probably help out quite a bit as right now, out of the box most of these Wireless networks are totally insecure until they're programed.
I'm sure most of us know not to use the defaults, but there are tons of "new" users that will see this type of network as easy to use and convenient. Just put this card in this computer and plug the router in add a net connection and tada - all done. Router does all the work to configure itself and now the users connected to the net thinking that they're nice and secure when they aren't because they didn't set that feature in the settings.
Soon enough though, things will change and that will probably cut down on a lot of these problems.
Mrafrohead
by tkilleen1
by admin
And if you do set it up yourself you are CLEARLY a criminal.
Should be the same way for business or private wifi. Let the public folks stay on 2.4- it's a public band. Move everyone else to a licensed band, it would solve everything.
All of usin Computer Networking seem to try to apply internet law and protocol to wifi. It's actually a Radio Frequency problem at it's heart IMO.
by mallardtooxx
I think instead of a cert someone should be a licensed FCC operator to get WIFI equipment. There are sooooo many different bands on the radio waves that you could nearly never find one with a wireless reciever just toolin around town. Let the public run on 2.4 along with cordless phones, baby monitors, and some radio controled planes. The business community will have to switch but hey isn't that always the way?
I think that is a smashing idea.
-duck
by ron vought
by admin
Uh, uh *red in face* ok, you definately got me!
I read an earlier posting about this and didn't recall the use bandwidth for internet use part in this posting- my bad!.... anyway, yep. it says to me that to drive around and look for open ways to use the internet that are obviously not meant to be public, well, that is illegal. And of course, if I was at an RV park and someone invited me over sometime and I went over and the door was unlocked and no one around, I wouldn't go through their stuff for education.... same manners with wireless IMO.
I just don't want to see the free wireless community projects crushed in the name of attempting to secure a public rf band for business. I like free public network projects, and they certainly can be legal as far as I can tell.
Anyway, a sincere Thank-You for the correction! :)
by admin
There are places to gain public access legally.
College Campuses. In many areas there are colleges that specifically allow anonymous public access.
Also check: Coffeeshops, LAN gaming centers\clubs, Libraries and of course, do some searches inyour area for wifi community projects. Portland Oregon for instance has a community scene as does San Fran off the top of my head. Of course there is the one at Burning Man for a week :) Also, there are a lot of smallish private ones, and word of mouth, warchalking.org etc. allows people to upload their sites so when you are driving around you can check movie schedules etc.
Just remember to be polite, and don't break into or launch illegal activities from the network kind enough to provide it- they will be forced to remove access if it is abused. If I was on a community wifi connection and they had a security problem, telling them would probably go a lot farther than say, telling a bank IMO, but use your own judgement.
Also, remember, sessions are a 2 way street! Protect your privacy and share what is public and you want to share! You will find that not only the netadmins but other guests on an open wap will potentially be looking back at you! :)
~ Have fun, be safe!
by cactus pete
I think I recall that most laws allow someone to stand on the street and look at your house - whether you like it or not. It is up to you to prevent them from seeing inside...
Conversely, you can be found guilty of public indecency by walking around your home naked, if it is easy for others to see inside [glass house].
So I'm just translating a little when I think there has to be an effort made to block access to your wireless network... If you leave it open and others can see it, it's your fault.
Also, think of me walking through your hypothetical backyard - I trip over a hose and fall into your swimming pool, hitting my head on the edge on the way down... I drown.
It's your fault for having an unsafe area - even if you posted a NO TRESPASSING sign, you failed to have an adequate fence to keep me from entering the dangerous property.
The laws are insufficiently behind the technology right now.
If only the law made users take courses in security before implementing their new technology... Or require a permit for construction the network...
by cactus pete
I'm only suggesting that it's not illegal to browse an open network.
Having to go so far as to 'hack' to gain access, or actually taking secured information, would certainly be illegal.
by jkaras
by cactus pete
Yes, you're right, it would be illegal to take the money. Would it be illegal to copy the money? To count it? To look at it?
Granted, copying money IS illegal, but you get the idea, I think.
Counting it without touching it would probably beperfectly legal - while picking it to do so might become a crime. At that point, possesion has changed.
Would taking a picture of the cash be illegal?
Some parts of this are clear and easy to understand. Some others are somewhat less so.
This discussion is closed to new replies.
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