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Israel and Palestine.

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by jardinier

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The latest development in this conflict has left me flabbergasted to the point where I can't think of anything sensible to say, but I am sure others have plenty to say.

The best I can offer is that the problem seems to have started with the establishment of the State of Isreal on land that was actually a part of Palestine.

So it's over to you political whizzes.

12 replies

by john_wills

The true Israel is the church commonly called "Catholic". The state of the true Israel is therefore the Vatican City State. As for the problems caused by the foundation of the Israeli state in the Holy Land, we must remember that the movement for that foundation goes back somewhat further. It is not simply a desire for a homeland for the Rabbinical Jewish church, along the lines of Utah at one time for the Mormon church, because in 1903 the World Zionist Congress was refused an offer of the Uasin Gishu, a then uninhabited area in East Africa. What precisely had the Palestinian nation done before 1903 to provoke the wrath of the Zionists? More precisely, what had the Palestinian nation done to provoke some Rabbinical Jews into Zionism?

by jackofalltech

Would both of you two anti-semites go somewhere else and trade your weird versions of history with each other.
The catholic church is NOT the true israel, God made that unconditional promise to Abraham and his descendants through Isaac (not Ishmael).

Ralph

by jardinier

In 1947 the United Nations voted to establish separate states for Jews and Arabs in Palestine. The state of Israel was declared in 1948, and wars have been continally fought since that time as to which parts of the land should belong to the originalPalestinian Arabs, and which to the mostly immigrant Jews.
The term semite refers to the language rather than the people. Jews and Arabs are both Semitic peoples.
I fail to see how you deduce that I am anti-semitic, which I am not.

by john_wills

The promise was made to Abraham and his spiritual descendants. However, if you want to suppose a promise of Eretz Israel to a national or racial group you should consider that the national descendants of the Biblical Israelites are the modern Palestinians. However, such a promise was not made: Israel is a people that does not count itself among the nations (Nm 23:9, confirmed in many pssages). So, back to the question: what do some Rabbinical Jews - who, like Catholics, claim on spiritual grounds to be the true Israel - have against the Palestinians? Something that happened before 1903, I mean.

by jackofalltech

The Jews don't have anything against the other ethnic groups living there, in fact, in 1948, they begged them to stay and help build the nation. If it weren't for the crazy cowards going around killing innocent civilians, there WOULD be peace there. Why isn't anyone condemning Jordan (the OTHER nation created in 1948) for refusing entrance to the refugees? By the way, there have ALWAYS been Jews living in the land of Israel whether ity was called that or not.

I know I can't change your closed minds and you're entitled to your own weird opinions but please at least stick to the facts of history here or go somewhere else.

Ralph

by john_wills

The Zionists in 1948 expelled people deliberately under the notorious "Plan Daleth". The story that they begged the natives to stay was invented in the 1950s. The main violation of peace at present is that a lot of people are being kept out of theirown private property on racial and religious grounds. Now, as to the older history, the Rabbinical Jewish church was founded in the first Century, in parallel with the Christian church. The Rabbinical Jewish church has probably never been a majorityin Eretz Israel. Certainly Galilee was majority Christian quite early, and Palestine as a whole was majority Christian by 200. Obviously there is an attachment among Rabbinical Jews, as there is among Christians, for Eretz Israel because of the history, common to both, before the Common Era. But Rabbinical Jews seem to have had no great interest in Eretz Israel for quite a long time - there was not even a Chief Rabbinate of Eretz Israel until the 1920s. The Jewish Patriarchate in the 1st Century received permission from the Roman Emperor to rebuild the Temple, but did not even move to Jerusalem let alone start stone-by-stone rebuilding. In the 16th Century the Ottoman Emperor Suleiman the Magnificent, fearing a new Crusade, encouraged non-Christians to settle in the Jerusalem area; it is from this time that the cult of the Western Wall dates, and, I suppose the "old Jewish Quarter". But the Zionist movement is something quite distinct and, unless we can blame the Palestinians for something done in the previous centuries, the 1903 decision must be considered unjust.

by john_wills

The Hashemite Kingdom of Trans-Jordan was founded quite some years before the Partition of Palestine. The Partition resulted in on the one hand the Provisional Government of the Jewish State in Eretz Israel, from which the Israeli state descends; and on the other hand the ambitiously named Government of All Palestine. Neither recognized the legitimacy of the other, but the latter was prepared to work peacefully towards reunification of Palestine, whereas the former, besides expelling Christiansand Muslims from the territory assigned to it, invaded territory assigned to the latter and expelled still more Christians and Muslims. After some truces, all but the last of which the Zionists broke in 1948, the Hashemite Kingdom "temporarily" tookover administration of most of the GAP's remaining territory and Egypt gave protection to the GAP in the Gaza Strip, the only part of Palestine over which it ever exercised real control. The PLO is the juridical descendant of the GAP. Neither the Israeli nor the Jordanian citizenry constitutes a nation (Hebrew: goy; Greek: ethnos) within the Biblical sense. Schaefer's reference to Jordan is really an irrelevance, and I sketch the history in the hope that we can ignore it from now on.

by merchantbanker

As far as I know Israel has occupied chunks of someone elses country and should leave. This is the modern world and I wish everyone would stop pointing at the Bible and spouting 'but it says here'. Israel has NO special rights to anything, and nor does anyone else. It's just another country that should abide by the International law, seeing as it has the nerve to call itself 'civilised' Palestine matters just as much as Israel does. Just withdraw from the stolen land and the Arab world will deal with Hamas etc ... and by the way, the suicide bombers are CIVILIANS but Israel responds with it's ARMY and regularly slaughters innocent Palestinians. Not too fair huh ? But the Israelis seem not to understand that word, thinking I supposethey are god's chosen ones ... please !

Come on then ... call me an Anti-Semite ... but I'm not. I'm on the side of justice and fairness and I'm allowed to disagree with someone I think is wrong without getting some stupid label put on me. Jews/Arabs/Christians/blah ... we're all the in the same boat.

by john_wills

The Palestinians are Semitic. The majority of "Jewish Israelis" nowadays may also be Semitic, I am not sure; but the founders of the Zionist movement and of the Israeli state were Eastern Europoean Jews, and so of Slavic and Turkic ancestry; they usually a Germanic language.

by john_wills

The Muffin Man talks of giving stolen territory back to the community which owns it. A more important kind of stolen property is the private property of many families stolen by the Israeli state and then rented via the Jewish National Fund to peopleclassified as "Jews". Most of the owners of this property are being kept in involuntary exile, but there are even many Christians and Muslims in the 1948 territories who are being kept off their property. When the stolen private property is returnedand rent paid for the time the owners have been kept away from it the question of interstate boundaries will be resolved comparatively easily.

by jardinier

A good point, John. I think all the Bible-based historical stuff just confuses (some people) and gets their backs up unnecessarily.
Now wouldn't it be nice if "white" Americans were as tolerant towards the descendants of the slaves whom their forefathers stole from Africa; transported in a brutal fashion; and used as free labour to build up their economy; as they are to the large immigant Jewish population which is so integrated into Amercan society?

by admin

settlement from Palestine. I was filled with a great hope that peace was perhaps possible for the first time upon hearing the news.

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