29 replies
by jamesrl
Are you hoping for the realization of all the conditions to enable the rapture?
Or are you simply curious.
No society is perfect. Isreal is not exempt from being run by humans with all the problems of human frailties.
You could ask the same kind of questions about any country in the world.
James
by john.a.wills
by rknrlkid
Israel is an independent nation. As such, their business is their business, not ours.
Other countries (almost all in the third world) are MUCH more corrupt/immoral than Israel. I consider the bloodbaths in Africa to be much more worrisome than the problems in the middle east, from a human rights perspective.
(The remainder is a rant, it has nothing to do with the original post or poster.)
This is one thing I hate about the "international community" concept. Everyone is involved in everyone else's business. When this happens, nothing gets accomplished, because everyone is too concerned with public opinion to make rational decisions. The United States is a good example of that. Goofy congressmen are more concerned about what world opinion is than in solving the real problems. Because of this, the focus is OUTWARD rather than INWARD. The vital domestic needs of the country are overlooked in favor of foreign policy (which many times we have no business being involved in anyway).
by tig2
They generally do.
That's the great thing about the Miscellaneous thread. Anything goes. And I mean ANYTHING.
Think of it as the "watercooler". No subject that can pass the smut filter can be discussed. We have discussed politics, religion, cancer, hugging your cat in the workplace... you name it. Some of it gets to be a bit heavy but all well intentioned.
by protiusx
Your assumption is that the Nation of Israel is a Theocratic one and you are incorrect. Israel has never been nor was it ever intended to be a Theocracy. You are confusing Jews and Israelis. A Jew is a religious person who practices Judaism. An Israeli is a person who lives in and is a citizen of Israel.
"Following World War II, the British withdrew from their mandate of Palestine, and the UN partitioned the area into Arab and Jewish states, an arrangement rejected by the Arabs. Subsequently, the Israelis defeated the Arabs in a series of wars without ending the deep tensions between the two sides. The territories occupied by Israel since the 1967 war are not included in the Israel country profile, unless otherwise noted. On 25 April 1982, Israel withdrew from the Sinai pursuant to the 1979 Israel-Egypt Peace Treaty. Israel and Palestinian officials signed on 13 September 1993 a Declaration of Principles (also known as the "Oslo Accords") guiding an interim period of Palestinian self-rule. Outstanding territorial and other disputes with Jordan were resolved in the 26 October 1994 Israel-Jordan Treaty of Peace. In addition, on 25 May 2000, Israel withdrew unilaterally from southern Lebanon, which it had occupied since 1982. In keeping with the framework established at the Madrid Conference in October 1991, bilateral negotiations were conducted between Israel and Palestinian representatives and Syria to achieve a permanent settlement. In April 2003, US President BUSH, working in conjunction with the EU, UN, and Russia - the "Quartet" - took the lead in laying out a roadmap to a final settlement of the conflict by 2005, based on reciprocal steps by the two parties leading to two states, Israel and a democratic Palestine. However, progress toward a permanent status agreement was undermined by Palestinian-Israeli violence between September 2000 and February 2005. An agreement reached at Sharm al-Sheikh in February 2005 significantly reduced the violence. The election in January 2005 of Mahmud ABBAS as the new Palestinian leader following the November 2004 death of Yasir ARAFAT, the formation of a Likud-Labor-United Torah Judaism coalition government in January 2005, and the successful Israeli disengagement from the Gaza Strip (August-September 2005), presented an opportunity for a renewed peace effort. However, internal Israeli political events between October and December 2005 have destabilized the political situation and forced early elections, scheduled for March 2006. " - A Brief history of Israel.
While there is no formal constitution the Israelis recognize that some of the functions of a constitution are filled by the Declaration of Establishment (1948), the Basic Laws of the parliament (known as "Knesset"), and the Israeli citizenship law. The legal system is an amalgamation of English common law, British Mandate regulations, and, in personal matters, Jewish, Christian, and Muslim legal systems; in December 1985, Israel informed the UN Secretariat that it would no longer accept compulsory ICJ jurisdiction. The Executive branch of the government is filled by the President, Prime Minister and the Deputy Prime Minister. The Legislative branch consists of the Unicameral Knesset which has 120 members who were elected by popular vote.
by john.a.wills
by protiusx
The "Israel" of the bible was a man who was born Jacob and was renamed by God. He had 12 sons who became the "Children of Israel" and their descendants became the "Nation" of Israel. It is not a church but a group of people who are descendants from Jacob.
The Modern day Israel is a nation and is recognized as such by the UN and the vast majority of nations around the world. The fact that Hamas does not "recognize" Israel means absolutely nothing. Hamas is a terrorist organization that has made it very public that their intent is to destroy the nation of Israel, kill every Jew and eliminate them from the face of the Earth.
Lastly, by definition any government in which the divine power governs an earthly human state, either in person or, via its religious institutional representatives, either replacing or dominating the organs of civil government as clerical or spiritual representative is a Theocracy.
people who stay bribed, a better class of prostitute and to be a little less sexually repressed.
Relaxed honesty that's the ticket.
by john.a.wills
What went wrong with his dream is what goes wrong with any other fanatic's.
It was HIS dream, somebody else's nightmare.
I struggle to see any value in picking out Kuk's dream specifically.
Any other popular charismatic or influential leader, has seen their dream fail to get the acceptance they hoped, and if they were around long enough, would see it adapt to societies needs not theirs, possibly in way's they found unacceptable.
Christian tolerance, turning in to tolerance of homosexuality for instance. That adaption, drives some completely buggers.
by john.a.wills
by jamesrl
that you can apply lessons from one society to another, and I would suggest to you that its very difficult, if not impossible.
Canada and the US are as much alike as you can imagine - we share a huge border -so much common geography, we share the same language (mostly), the same economic system, the same judicial system, very similar governmental systems. Yet for all of that when we try to imitate or copy things that have worked in the US (workfare etc) it doesn't work out the same way.
There are so many variables, its very difficult to compare.
James
by jeffykins
This subject has been an ongoing interest of mine, and it's been discussed around the dinner table in my home with dozens of people. I've heard a LOT of different theories, of course, and they boil down to a few.
Which one(s) you like depend on your outlook. Here are some theories I've heard that all pass the "with the right world view, this makes total sense" test; personally, I think it's a combination of all of these, but your mileage will probably differ:
1) It got off to a bad start, since from the first he made agreements with the (atheist) Socialists, whose influence the state is continuing to struggle with. (Ever notice that Socialist and recently Socialist states are often the most corrupt?) Many say the U.N. only voted to establish Israel in '48 because the Soviet bloc thought, being Socialist, they would be natural allies.
2) By not paying attention to God's expressed instructions (detailed in the Bible) for how Jews are supposed to act in the holy land, they lost His protection and became subject to the curses He specified (Bible, again) as the (natural?) consequences of their failure to hold up their part of the bargain.
3) Rav Kuk's dream was unrealistic: that you can have a theistic state filled with educated middle class people in this day and age is just not feasible.
4) In order to "cozy up to" the U.S., who has militarily and economically helped Israel greatly over the decades, their society has become increasingly Americanized over the years. As with many imitators, they got our vices even more strongly than we (the U.S.) have them, in some cases. When I was in Israel (during the Y2K turnover, actually), one of the most popular shows on TV was "Dallas."
5) Movements usually deviate from the course set by their founder after he's removed from the scene. Just look at the US civil rights movement: (US Rep.) John Lewis is probably the only one of Dr. King's close circle alive with his honor intact. The movement has literally accomplished every one of the goals Dr. King spoke of, so they had to find new problems to address, or else go get jobs.
6) As Israel became more prosperous and there was less "scratching for survival," people became less focused on building the nation and more on their personal comfort and other "bourgeois" concerns. Witness now that Israel's #1 export is Israelis: for a few years ('til 10 years ago) I lived in Birmingham, Alabama, where I met DOZENS of Israelis. Now, if there are dozens of Israelis living close enough to the midde of nowhere, how many must there be in the U.S.? Remember, Israel is a country of maybe 8 million people: it's less than 50% bigger, by geography and population, than the Atlanta metro area. When I ask Israelis why they left, it's almost always: "life there is too hard; it's easier here." So they turn 18, do their 1 year of military service, take a trip to India, and move here.
by onbliss
by jeffykins
From what I can tell, it's from a sense of missing "spirituality."
Public schools in Israel are still like those in (other) Socialist countries. That is to say, similar to American schools in scrupulously avoiding any mention of God, but doing a much better job with Science and Math.
They have no clue that their great grandparents were persecuted for their beliefs that include a well-developed spirituality (since only Madonna seems to emphasize it publicly), so they look to the East. (Not just Israelis: the vast majority of American Buddists are Jews.)
A sad fact: a crew of social scientists did a survey: they went to a few Israeli public schools, and asked the kids how many had had a bar or bat mitzvah celebration in a synagogue. A small minority had, and large minority didn't even recognize the word for synagogue!
One result of the religious folks in Israel all sending their kids to private schools is that it's common for a "secular" Israeli to reach the age of 18 never having met a religious Jew. They're more likely to meet a Christian missionary!
What's REALLY sad is the government's reaction: they want to make it illegal for missionaries.
by john.a.wills
by jeffykins
Just like every other "ism" I can think of, from Feminism to Objectivism (100%, both), Socialism was, from the start, populated by a wildly disproportionate number of nonreligious Jews.
Indeed, "Marx" is a Jewish name, and I'm pretty sure Carl's grandfather was a Rabbi from a prominent family. (Don't have time to check right now.) The Socialists borrowed greatly from the Communists, no? Truth is, I think a classic Israeli Kibbutz would fit very nicely into either "ism". They even had communal child raising and meals, with both parents working.
Considering that less than 1/2 of 1% of the world's population (<20M/>4B) are Jews, a HUGE number of the early Socialists were. (Outside of England, some parts of Europe thought of Socialism as a Jewish thing.) Indeed, the typical European Jewish community was composed of 3 or 4 large groups: Religious (Chasidim) and/or Religious (not Chasidim), Socialist, and Zionist. In many towns, the Socialists outnumbered the Zionists.
Indeed, most of the early emmigrants from Europe (when they could still leave) were Socialists, and not really Zionists. The joke in Miami (where you can still find enough survivors to joke about it) is that the Zionists mostly perished in the "camps," because they stayed behind encouraging everyone else to go to the Holy Land, so the U.S. and Israel now have mostly the decendants of the Socialists. This, like most Jewish humor, is pretty much true. Most of the religious community perished, as well, since they didn't listen to the Zionists, and only a very small number of Rabbis and heads of Yeshivas told people to leave.
Which ones are very easy to tell today: just look for populous groups of Chasidim and European Yeshivas that are now open in the U.S. or Israel: Satmar, Bells, Lubavitch chasidim, and the Mir and Ponevitch yeshivas. That's about all that really survived in significant numbers, out of many dozens of groups of chasidim and dozens of yeshivas. A tiny percentage of everyone else survived the "camps." A few, like the Square Chasidim, managed to rebuild in the U.S. or Israel from the tiny number of survivors.
There are lots of theories as to why so few religious figures told their followers to leave while they still could, but none that I like well enough to repeat.
Some theorize (see my India comment) that a Jew, when not well educated in his or her own religion, has a yearning that they will inevitably find SOMETHING to fill. I'm partial to this theory, myself, as I'm a scientist at heart, and it explains a lot.
According to this theory, whichever "world saving ism" is ascendant at the time will attract a lot of nonreligious Jews, and that seems to have been pretty much the case, for the past 150 years or so anyway.
[Edited to fix bad typing]
by jeffykins
Canada / U.S. (your example) is actually a closer pair than most of those that the questioner (sorry; I'm bad w/names) listed.
On the other hand, it's an interesting question, regardless of its flawed motivation.
by onbliss
Okay. I did not know that Israelis went to India to seek spirituality. It is news to me.
[i]the vast majority of American Buddists [b]are[/b] Jews.[/i]
Are you saying Amercian Jews converted to Buddhism?
by jeffykins
They are Jews at the time they adopt Buddism, and I believe that both Buddists and Jews still consider them to be Jews after. (The Buddists, of course, consider them to be "enlightened Jews," while Jews, understandably, consider them to be "sinning Jews.")
Christians and Moslems will probably have trouble understanding this. Sorry.
by john.a.wills
by jeffykins
Things change.
If you've been trying to convert Jews for 2,000 years with very little success, it's understandable if you have no enthusiasm for it.
On the other hand, if you just started 20 years ago, which (roughly) coincided with a sea change in the knowledge level of Israelis (and Jews worldwide) in their own religion, and you find they're somewhat susceptible, you might be encouraged.
by john.a.wills
by protiusx
by john.a.wills
Nm 23:9 is clear enough. By and large, when the Bible calls Israel a nation God is annoyed with us. The Davidic Kingdom was an ecclesiastical state, not a national one.
By the way don't tell lies, even about Hamas: the desire to end the Israeli state is not a mindless desire to kill Jews, and Hamas has offered recognition on condition that the exiles be allowed home, which common decency demands.
by protiusx
You stand on a single scripture. How about Gen 32:28
Gen 32:32
Gen 35:10
Gen 35:22
Exd 19:6
1Ch 17:21
Psa 83:4
and so on and so on.
I won't even address the last statement. Hamas much like Hezbollah are murders, kidnappers and thieves. They care nothing of neither their own brethren nor the lives of others.
by john.a.wills
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