13 replies
by jimhm
The new "Blue Collar" workers of America better take a good hard look at our brothers and sister of yesterdays "Blue Collar" group and learn the hard lessons that they taugh us. If not they raised a stupid bunch of kids.
"Oh - we are to important to mess with... They can replace me - I know all the systems... We are American workers we make the best..."
Steel - Automative - textiles - you name it - the workers of yesterday have shown us the way... if we listen to them... and learn from their mistakes - but so far not many have listened...
Remember - "There is power in the millions of voices - but only when those voices become the POWER OF ONE!"
by jamesrl
I was a manager at one organization, where I had 3 teams, 2 of which were teams of desktop technicians. One of the desktop teams was unionized, at a site where many professionals(engineers, high skill technical jobs etc) were unionized. At the "other" site, where I was located, the engineers were unionized but only the IT folks who were engineering grads were in the union.
Our non-unionized folks were happier. They had more latitude in their job, developed more personal responsibility, got along better with management. The unionized folks had to deal with some issues in a longer more involved method(greivances) than we had to. When the engineers at the "non-union" site went on strike, our staff who belonged to the same union were seething mad. They made sure before they went on strike that they had plans for good handoffs, and they called their collegues to make sure everything was ok.
The unionized team I had spent a lot of time and effort trying to get their union local to work better with them, then spent more time decertifying them and creating their own union.
If someone else in their job classification level who had more time on the job was laid off, they could bump them out and onto the street. Merit had little to do with it.
James
by jimhm
I am normally a non-professional-unionized shop also. I was a supervisor of the third shift computer operations of a unionized shop. And dealing with the union was always fun, sometimes they saved a poor performer worker thier job - other times they corrected a management injustics..So there are its good points and bad points -
But never in the past would I have believed that management would dump so baddly on the professionals that support there efforts. It all began with forced overtime which were unpaid/uncompansated - to layoffs of the older employee to hire a younger cheaper ones.
Management has begged and requested this Professional-Union for the past 5 - 7 years from the poor treatment of thier professional staffs.
As the poster said we were the Future Blue Collar worker - it is such a true statement... what management is doing to us they did in the past to the mill workers, truck drivers, and everyone inbetween.
Now its our turn - we are the professionals without us the computers don't run - the network doesn't work - the systems don't get developed - profits are made - So Mr. and Ms. Executive lets try this again.. it is time to unite across America and across the world..
Judging by the other replies so far my opinion will fall
in among the minority views. Nevertheless a discussion
in which everyone agrees isn't so much as discussion
as it is a mutual fan club. Hopefully my contribution
will add some flavor to this subject.
First I think it's important to point out that I am 46
years old and have been working in the IT support field
for 20 years. I had numerous jobs in other blue collar
positions prior to starting my IT career. Some of those
jobs involved joining a union. So I have direct
experience of the subject.
I believe that history clearly shows that unions are
necessary. Yes I said that they ARE necessary. Pure
capitalism inevitably leads to people becoming wage
slaves. The pressures of the job market do NOT assure
people a reasonable wage or civilised working
conditions. That said I'll now present my point.
I've worked in a number of unionised shops. In all
cases I found that the union had an overall negative
effect on the job experience. The relationship between
managers and union members was always hostile.
Managers and union members always played games
about what would and would not be done by any
individual. This "You can't make me./Yes I can."
attitude created an undercurrent of hatred that
permeated everything that you would do all day long.
Managers would think of unpleasant or pointless tasks
for union members to do. Union members would
always talk among themselves about retaliation of one
form or another. It didn't take long before I would hate
going to work spending the shift doing something that
I knew the next shift would undo or some other
pointless pass time.
Union contracts often have provisions which state that
malfeasant employees cannot be fired. Having this kind
of situation only demoralises the other people around
the bad person. There is no structural incentive to do a
good job. The productive employee is often chastised
by his/her peers for doing a full day's work. I have
often heard the expression "This isn't piece work."
meaning "Slow down. You're making the rest of us
think you're a brown nose." Doing to much work was
likened to being disloyal to your peers.
Unions create a new level of political power in the
workplace. The shop foreman could be your friend or
your enemy. The shop foreman in one place that I
worked was just a patsy for management. He was a
liability to the union employees. Other places I've
found the shop foreman to be ineffective or the union
itself to be ineffective. I had one job where my job
didn't enjoy the benefits of the union contract even
though I had to join the union and pay dues. I read the
contract. It clearly identified my job as being exempted
from certain benefits that the other employees enjoyed.
Lastly many heavily unionised fields have seen jobs
outsourced to foreign countries. The IT industry is
already experiencing this. Unionising will only speed
this process and will convince employers that would
have kept their jobs in the United States to outsource
to India. Software development is currently
experiencing this. It would not be difficult to outsource
system administration. Instead of hiring a system
administrator an employer could have the brain work
done overseas and have a lower paid computer
operator on hand to press the power button when
requested.
In summary I believe that unions may look attractive
in hard times but they ultimately cause a lot of
problems. I would resist any effort to unionise the IT
support industry. We're not making minimum wages.
We're not working in a dangerous environment.
Unpaid 'overtime' is a misconception. We are paid a
higher salary, in part, to compensate us in advance for
working extra hours.
by jimhm
I must agree and have been there and seen the down side to unionized shops. Have had all the fun being in management and dealing with them.
But - right now management is pitting Tech worker aganist tech worker - here is a job paying $25,000 who will take it.. "We can Outsource to India, we can contract to CGE&Y or ABC or Accunter or someone else!"
They continue to Cutting back in the IT area then expect us to working more for less. More hours, no raise more work tighter schedules. They will not spend the money to purchase productivity software to aid in development - but want stuff written in Web-time.
I don't know about you but I like playing with my kids... Not watching them sleep! Home after bedtime out of the house before they wake - thats BS - I got a life and I will live it ... I signed for 8 hours a day period not 20...
OK - so you are paid extra each month - take the total hours you worked last year - divide it into your salary... interesting isn't it - now take that same number subtract 2000 hours - divide that into your salary - now take that number by 1.5 times the other hours - and see the number.
Last year my salary went down from the previous year - when you calculate it by the hours worked. And they want more hours this year... sorry - not giving it... fire me - already have my lawyer ready for it...
Some times - you have to take all the bad of a union to get the good. And I am 52 with over 33 years of IT experence!
by husp1
by zackysdad
by protiusx
by apotheon
Consider whether your health might be in danger before doing so. Union members have a history of beating the crap out of scabs.
Aside from that, I says screw the union if you need the job.
by john.a.wills
by protiusx
by jdclyde
I can advance based on my merits, not based on how long I have been punching the same clock.
I can get promoted based on my merits.
The unions are for the below average worker that will not be able to keep their job based on just their work ethics and abilites.
There was a time when unions served a great purpose and they changed the way companies delt with employees. Now the unions have discredited themselves by taking on the bad cases, or slow downs of work because they are only paid to do X pieces an hour.
The other side is most of your smaller unions don't give a rip about you or your rights, their job is to keep the dues coming in.
Worked in union shops and will never do it again.
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