General discussion


Lie or Die?

By jkaras ·
Well Tookie Williams was put to death the other day. He was a man that caused all sorts of violence and crime thoughout his young life. Justice finally caught up with him and he was taken off the streets being imprisoned. He was credited with starting the gang, the Crips.

It is my opinion that he was deserving of the death penalty for the crimes and the legacy he promoted. I am not sure whether the "specific crime he was accused of was accurate or not in light of so many over turned cases of mistaken identity through DNA results or what have you. Our justice system also uses trumped up charges to further the prosecutor's career at the expanse of another's future. Sure people who break the law should be punished, but punished accordingly, fairness is not in our justice's equation.

Basically what I am pondering about is whether a person who attempted to atone for past crimes still deserves death. Tookie wrote children's books to help curb the desire to make the same mistakes that he made in his youth believing that gangs were the way to go. What example is it to others that remain criminals? I feel that many criminals continue to do bad things because they feel once they went down a path, made on bad decision that they are forever damned and never try to be a better person spirialing downward into a path of destruction because the our world doesnt forgive or forget, even after the debt to society is paid.

Do I believe in the death penalty? Yes, I do unfortunately because certain people deserve the ultimate price to be paid for the harm they have commited. Is it more revenge, than practical? Yes, I admit that and the treat of the ultimate price helps curb most of the populace to behave. I am curious though is his example of death better or worse? Gang members seeing a dominate figure who tried to atone still got put to death. Would they increase violence seeing no hope in life rather than turn their lives around increasing their downward spiral? Do politican's look better by no showing compassion? This doesnt fix any problems and might increase them giving politicans more fuel to their fire of need? I see more to this situation than a simple verdict, what do you see? Any opinion is welcome.

This conversation is currently closed to new comments.

Thread display: Collapse - | Expand +

All Comments

Collapse -

Finding god in your heart

by Dr Dij In reply to Lie or Die?

does nothing for the victims. finding god in your heart (or any other redemption) is very subjective. if we let people go 'because they've been re-deemed' there will spring up a shyster industry in prison that will bring a convincing 'redemption' to anyone who wants to get out. I do however think we should try to rehabilitate people in prison, and maybe separate them to some degree from the other criminals.

did he kill those people? maybe (in addition to being convicted of the killings and withstanding appeals). as founder of a street gang, it was probably just scratching the surface with what he was convicted of.

did he actually do anything else horrible not mentioned? probably, as founder of the crips. they generally do many killings and other horrible things, and are only convicted of a few, due to codes of silence.

how about black people, instead of losing sleep over him dying, tell their kids: this is what happens to you when you take up a life of crime.

some white person executed by state? I'm not going to protest. get over the permanent victim complex and improve your lives and keep your kids out of gangs.

I can't get over the stupidity of sticking up for these A** criminals. there was some motorcycle guy in tampa I think, years ago, on stolen bike, doing 120 in police chase and crowd riots to support this lame brain?

Collapse -

Take responsibility for your actions

by jdmercha In reply to Lie or Die?

Life is not fair.

If you kill someone, be prepared to be killed.

Collapse -


by tryten In reply to Lie or Die?

I believe that the redemption that these people find is for themselves. They are basically staring down the barrel of a gun and will have to answer for what they have done and dont like the idea of possibly having to spend eternety in ****. So they try to absolve their sins by finding God and trying to tell others that they are truly sorry for what they have done and that others shouldnt follow in their footsteps.

Well, if they were truly sorry they would have turned themselves in, which happens on occasion, but not often enough to be considered seriously in this comment. The fact is someone had to take the time to stop you from what you were doing because you had no remorse and no guilt for what you have done. This covers 95% of the cases out there.

As for Tookie, finding God and writing childrens books still doesnt give back to the victims what was taken away from them. It doesnt stop the hundreds of kids that already followed in his footsteps and are causing the same pain that Tookie caused to others.

Honestly, if he had not of gotten the death penalty the only other suitable punishment would be to serve consecutive life sentences for every man, every woman, and every child thats lives were ruined or taken away by a member of a Crip. With no contanct to the outside world in solitary confinement to make him feel the emptyness and how alone these mothers and father feel when they are told their son/daughter was killed by gang violence or that when their son/daughter tell their parents they are joining a gang and will be home when they feel like it.

I have no pity for gang members and their lifestyles. They chose the life, let them deal with it. If mommy and daddy dont love you enough, deal with it. If you feel like you need to protect yourself, join the military, hey the army and marines will take just about anything they can get. If you are not old enough to join the military I hear McDonalds is hiring.

This may be a little extreme but I belive that of you join a gang you should automatically get the death penalty no matter what crime you commit.

Collapse -

feeling kind of mellow?

by jdclyde In reply to Die

much tamer than in the other discussion. Did you find a nice sunbeam and it has you feeling all mellow?

I think people hung on the wall in shackless should become fashionable.

Collapse -


by tryten In reply to feeling kind of mellow?

Yes, I have found my "happy" place.
Oh, wait.... nevermind just got a call.
It seems that someone cant figure out how to send multiple attachments, hmmm this will only be their 5th lesson.
OHHHH the inky shroud of hatered falls over me again.

Think I am gonna send them seperate pictures of a boot and an a$$ and let them figure it out.

Collapse -

It's a shame

by Cactus Pete In reply to Lie or Die?

I don't ever support the death penalty. I will never kill another person unless it saves others' lives - immediately. I'm sure that can be parsed quite a bit, but I'll stand behind the general idea of it.

Killing a criminal, for anything, is not the best answer. It is pretty easy, and it gives some satisfaction to a few people. But the easiest and best-feeling way isn't always the right way.

When does the death penalty kick in? When you kill 4 people? How about just 1? What about why or how brutally you committed the crime. Maybe just execute them if they really liked the feel of murdering. I don't buy into that. It's all too arbitrary.

Along those lines, what if you just wanted to kill 5 people, but you failed. Why is it different if you were just too unlucky or too incompetent to carry it out?

And what happens when the system gets it wrong? At what percentage of wrongly convicted innocents do we say, "Oops, maybe we should think about this again..."?

And what if the person you execute wanted to be executed? Are you really punishing them? So if a terminally ill patient who knows they are about to face an agonizing end of life for possibly many years goes on a rampage, they can die. But if they are good people, we force them to a cruel existence? Again, it doesn't sit well with me.

The criminals, or those convicted as such, should be forced to make the world (or community) a better place. Pick your method. Perhaps breaking rocks all day... Perhaps stamping license plates. Perhaps sifting through refuse for recyclable goods. Maybe as genetic test sites... I don't know. But they are of more good alive than dead, and killing them doesn't make the world better or safer than it was.

Yes, many people point to the idea that the death penalty is a deterrent towards future crimes. Someone show me how this has helped anywhere. We're still killing people and crimes are still being committed.

Why wouldn't 100 years of grueling work be more of a deterrent than death? When you're dead, life is easy...

And as for "Tookie"... He was worth more to society alive than dead. I didn't hear the Governor address that issue. So what if he never admitted guilt, and therefore never showed remorse? He was activily trying to prevent others from committing crimes like he had done. Let him write books, make speaches, whatever. Tack on to that a 1000 license plate quota and two weekends of highway cleanup per month until death and let humanity benefit.

Death lets people off too easy when they are guilty. And it's far too harsh for any possibly wrongly convicted innocents.

Collapse -


by puppybreath In reply to It's a shame

doing as you suggest would just bring more charges of "cruel and unusual" punishment from the bleeding hearts. Those poor misguided murderers shouldn't be forced to work, after all they're locked in prison for the rest of their lives.

And what about those that refuse to work? Are you going to add more years to their life sentence?

Sorry, but I believe that you are responsible for your own actions and you have to pay the price for your crimes. It's bad enough that we taxpayers had to pay for this killer to live for 20+ years. I don't want to have to pay for his room and board for his entire life. If he's convicted, give a fixed amount of time for appeals (2 years, 5 years, who knows?) and then fry him.

They don't deserve to live. They made their choice, their victims didn't.

Collapse -

What's worse

by Cactus Pete In reply to But.....

Death or forced labor?

Fine, they don't want to work, now they're lab rats.

What is more cruel than Death? Torture? OK, so don't torture them. But they can be of use, in SOME way, to society. Death is too easy.

And how many innocent people do you suppose have been put to death? How many guilty people have been over-sentenced with the death penalty?

Is even one ever OK? If so, would two be fine? Where is the line, and why do you place it there?

Collapse -


by puppybreath In reply to What's worse

I can see the protests now if you tried to force lab experiments on them. They can only be of use to society if they want to be and they've already proven that they're anti-social.

Let's assume that we go with your plan. I'm wrongly convicted of murder and sentenced to life. I refuse to work since I'm innocent. Now I'm used for lab experiments even though I've done nothing wrong. Your system is no better than mine.

Each system has flaws and no system will ever be perfect, but I would rather execute them and resolve the issue rather than putting them in prison for 40 years. Their victims didn't get that 40 years, why should they?

Collapse -

Not the point

by Cactus Pete In reply to Sure...

You terminate someone's life by sending them to the chair, or the chamber, whatever. It doesn't really help anything.

I demonstrated that there are alternatives. Once there is agreement that people should not be put to death, we can argue exactly what else to do with them and how to handle them.

Related Discussions

Related Forums