Collapse - anti-Semitism by john_wills · 16 years ago In reply to Light is Shed on Middle e ... "been there" is guilty of anti-Semitic bigotry. It has usually been the Zionists who have started hostilities, most notably in 1903, 1948, 1956, 1967 and 1982. In particular, the Israeli state is keeping large numbers of people away from their private property on the grounds of nationality and religion, i.e. because the Palestinians, besides being the first Jewish nation, were the first Christian nation. The Israeli state's economic success is based on U.S. subisdies of ca. $3m/day. But during the 19th and early 20th Century the sub-province of Palestine, with its successful agriculture, was the economic underpinning of the Ottoman province of Syria. What the Palestinians would have achieved if the Zionists had left them in peace is a matter for "parallel world" fiction, but it would have been something great. On the side, Arafat was democratically elected, and some of his family property has been stolen by the Israelis for expansion of the Wailing Wall area. Let us have no more bigotry, let us get our facts right, and let us not misunderstand the religious issues. Collapse - You throw out a lot of dates by road-dog · 16 years ago In reply to anti-Semitism Now please shed a little light on what you mean.1903, 1948, 1956, 1967 and 1982Israel wasn't a country in 1903I assume that with 1982, you cite the Israeli strike on Iraq's nuclear reactor (osirak)Please describe:-Zionist, by your definition-What Zionist Aggressions occurred in the years you cite-How disagreeing with you constitutes bigotry Collapse - dates by john_wills · 16 years ago In reply to You throw out a lot of da ... Zionism is the movement commonly so called, the activities and aims of a series of leaders from David Alroy to David Ben-Gurion and beyond with the foundation and pereptuation of the Israeli state and the concommitant perpetration of the Nakba.In 1903 the World Zionist Congress definitively decided to dispossess the Palestinians. Herzl was in favor of accepting a British government offer of the then uninhabited Uasin Gishu in East Africa, but Weissmann tore the map of East Africa from the wall and won the vote in the Congress.In 1948 the UN partitioned mandated Palestine between an Arab state and a Jewish state, withe the provision that no-one would lose civil or political rights from being on the side of the partition assigned to the other group. The Zionists started mass expulsion of Christians and Moslems even before the partiton date and on the partition date, following their "Plan Daleth", invaded the territory assigned to the "Arab State", expelling people and twice breakingtruces to dispossess more people.In 1956 the Zionists tried to complete the Nakba by attacking the teeny independent part of Palestine, i.e. the Gaza Strip, the West Bank and Egypt. In 1967 there was a succesful reprise of the 1956 attempt.In 1982 the Zionists invaded Lebanon to massacre and disperse the Palestinians living there.I have not said that anyone disagreeing with me is a bigot. What I have written in this screed is not opinion but verifiable history. I am willing to learn of some evil done by the Palestinians justifying the 1903 decision. Collapse - Biased references by Oldefar · 16 years ago In reply to dates A search on the referenced information seems to lead only to either Palestinian sponsored or Israeli sponsored sites. Each has its own biased interpretation of the events that took place leading to the creation of Israel.On a side note, discarding the Mandate of 1903 and the other work done by the League of Nations not only elminates the legitimacy of Israel, but eliminates Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Lebannon, Iraq, etc. I believe these areas would revert to Turkish territory. Of course, we could step back a bit further and turn the whole area over to Greek control, or further back still and put Italy in charge.On the other hand, we could acknowledge a long history of conquest and theft has led to the current world state, withno clean hands left anywhere, and move forward from where we are. A beginning is the recognition that individuals have a right to exist, and that among us still are those who would choose to enslave others for personal gain. If I treat those I deal from a basic position of fairness, and expect others to do the same towards me, those of us who respect others far outnumber those who do not and we can oppose them together. Collapse - PoliticsRepublic.com by Jim Phelps · 16 years ago In reply to You throw out a lot of da ... I thought this was "TECH" republic, not "POLITICS" republic! Please, let's keep the politics out of this web site. I don't want that kind of thing to overrun a very valuable web site. Collapse - This topic is Miscellaneous by road-dog · 16 years ago In reply to PoliticsRepublic.com Political discussion threads are symptomatic of great interest in current events. We can always pursue the Certification Vs. College debate after the war.we technical folks do have things that we feel are important and need articulation that arenot technical in nature. Roll with the flow, this too shall pass. Collapse - Yep by MallardtooXX · 16 years ago In reply to This topic is Miscellaneo ... Besides, those of us who are embroiled in these debates are still answering the questions of those of you who are not so if we can do both then you can do more than look at the hot discussions page. Have a shot of windex and chill, things will always be addressed, just not in the order you might like. That is our choice, not yours.-duck Collapse - You are out of your mind! by JackOfAllTech · 16 years ago In reply to anti-Semitism and you don't know history.The area that most people today call Palestine was nothing but a wasteland inhabited by nomad tribes until it was given BACK to the Jews in 1948. At that time the Israelis BEGGED the locals to stay and help them rebuild the land.Another thing to consider is that the 'Palestinians' DO have a land of their own - Jordan. Unfortunately, it was taken over by another mad Sheik and HE refused to allow refugees from Israel in.'Palestinians' are neither Jewish nor Christian, if they were they would live in peace with their neighbors when at all possible as the Bible teaches.Ralph Collapse - bad language by john_wills · 16 years ago In reply to You are out of your mind! Palestine was one of the most prosperous parts of the Ottoman Empire.It was NOT given BACK to the Jews: it was partly given in sovereignty to to people who had no historical rights there except that the Palestinians had once been of the religion the newcomers claimed to be. The israelis have no national historical right in Palestine.Any ****-by-**** account will tell you that the Israelis were expellling Christians and Moslems even before Partition. There were massacres of some villages, and these massacres were publicized in the hope of frightening the others out. A large proportion of Palestinians are Christian. Palestinians were the first Christian nation and, before that, the first Jewish nation. They are willing to live in peace, but the Israelis keep them in exile, insist on holding the already stolen land, and keep on stealing yet more land. Collapse - confusion of concepts by john_wills · 16 years ago In reply to You are out of your mind! On second thoughts I can do more than correct facts: I think that rdschaefer's understanding rests on two doctrines. Firstly, he believes that the promises God made to Israel in the Bible were made to a nation; secondly he believes that the Israelisare the national descendants of the Biblical Israelites. Now, Israel did grow to a great nation(Hebrew: goy) in Egypt, but on passing Sinai it ceased to be a nation (Nm 23:9), remaining a church. My book Albatross 0-595-19418-4 goes into this a little further. For the second matter, the Israelis are of various national origins, but their ancestral conversions to a branch of the religion of Israel mostly occurred long after Bible times. The national descendants of the Biblical Israelites are thePalestinians, the first majority-Jewish nation and the first (ca. CE 200) majority-Christian nation. With these two misconceptions corrected I think rdschaefer will be able to restate his position.