Linux in the real world
This is page 2 of the discussion. Read the opening post
Linux
This is page 2 of the discussion. Read the opening post
I always provide a router that can handle the DSL logon/authentication issues. Then it just becomes a DHCP matter at the client end. Works well, even if only one PC is involved. Has the added advantage of one less thing for the client CPU to be wasting cycles on.
(And on Windows installs: NO SBC/Yahoo "content" or advertising on the browser.)
by raven2
I used to work for a retailer. We had retired a stack of HP Vectras that had been running Suse Linux and some POS software or the other.
One of our server guys thought he'd try to load Gentoo-is-cool!! on a Vectra to use as an intranet server. Started compiling on a Monday afternoon, and I think it was serving web pages the following Saturday.
I was sure impressed, let me tell you.
by apotheon
by raven2
I believe in the KISS principal.
I have a dumb 4 port ethernet hub that two computers attach to. That in turn is attached to the vendor supplied DSL box. I will get the exact models and post those later today. I know the hub is basic, and I do not think the DSL box has much.
The Ubunto Live CD was having some problem seeing the network. Ethr0 and 1 would not configure under the Systems tab in Gnome.
I had a bit of a problem getting this machine to work with the DSL box under Windows XP; It has an builtin MB ethernet connection (Epox MB, AMD 64 3000 cpu) I think the builtin is running a Nvidia chip. That connection would never work right, so I added a ethernet card that works.
I am going to repartition the HD to give me space to install the Linux system and then install Debian 3.1 if I have the correct version for AMD 64 cpu.
by apotheon
Hubs don't tend to play well with DSL, and even switches are often less than fully functional, if there isn't a local router involved. The problem is largely with the way the network is set up on the ISP's side: they make things difficult for running multiple systems.
The problem that arises is that you only have one DSL account (I assume), and as such they only give you one IP address. A hub or (basic) switch thus can't help much because multiple systems plugged into a hub or switch will need multiple IP addresses.
You need either a NAT device of some kind or a router/gateway, so that the ISP only sees one device at your locality. This is true no matter what OS you're using.
by raven2
by raven2
I have sorted out the hardware issues on a 300htz Celeron 13GB system. Debian 3.1 Sarge is up to the console level. Now I get to learn how to install packages and get it all tidy.
The network part is still a dark hole. I need to get the cable strung so I have a connection and then I get to see if it can find the network / internet.
Wish me luck, I seem to be midway between 3 Lunix user groups. Maybe I can find a local wizard.
by apotheon
To look for a package, do a search by what sort of software you're seeking. For instance, if you want a text editor, you could try searching for "editor". If you want a word processor, you could try "word processor". If you're looking for OpenOffice.org, you could search for it with something like "openoffice". The quotes shouldn't be necessary unless your have spaces in your search term.
The command to perform the search is [b]apt-cache search[/b]. For instance, if you're looking for a word processor, you might try this:
$ [b]apt-cache search "word processor"[/b]
If you're looking for OOo in particular, you might try:
$ [b]apt-cache search openoffice[/b]
If you find something in a list of search results that catches your eye, but you want to know more about it, you can use apt-cache for that as well. For instance, in searching for a word processor, you might come across abiword (my personal favorite word processor at the moment, when I have to look at Word documents and the like). To see more about abiword without installing it or searching the web, you could use the [b]apt-cache show[/b] command, like so:
$ [b]apt-cache show abiword[/b]
The output of that command is as follows on Debian Sarge/stable 3.1:
[i]Package: abiword
Priority: optional
Section: editors
Installed-Size: 6620
Maintainer: Masayuki Hatta (mhatta)
Architecture: i386
Version: 2.2.7-3
Replaces: abiword-common (<< 2.0.14-1), abiword-gtk, abiword-gnome
Depends: libatk1.0-0 (>= 1.7.2), libc6 (>= 2.3.2.ds1-4), libenchant1, libfontconfig1 (>= 2.3.0), libfreetype6 (>= 2.1.5-1), libfribidi0 (>= 0.10.4-5), libgcc1 (>= 1:3.4.1-3), libglade2-0 (>= 1:2.4.2-2), libglib2.0-0 (>= 2.6.0), libgtk2.0-0 (>= 2.6.0), libice6 | xlibs (>> 4.1.0), libpango1.0-0 (>= 1.8.1), libperl5.8 (>= 5.8.4), libpng12-0 (>= 1.2.8rel), libpopt0 (>= 1.7), libsm6 | xlibs (>> 4.1.0), libstdc++5 (>= 1:3.3.4-1), libx11-6 | xlibs (>> 4.1.0), libxft2 (>> 2.1.1), libxml2 (>= 2.6.16), libxrender1, zlib1g (>= 1:1.2.1), abiword-common (= 2.2.7-3)
Conflicts: abiword-gtk, abiword-gnome
Filename: pool/main/a/abiword/abiword_2.2.7-3_i386.deb
Size: 2340758
MD5sum: 27dd095ebe465f4b615483487c716f43
Description: WYSIWYG word processor based on GTK2
AbiWord is the first application of a complete, open source office
suite. The upstream source includes cross-platform support for Win32,
BeOS, and QNX as well as GTK+ on Unix.
.
This package contains the AbiWord binary built with GTK2.[/i]
It uses GTK, which annoys me a little, but at least the interface doesn't require Java like OOo's does.
The other apt command set, aside from apt-cache, that is likely to be of great use to you is apt-get. The apt-cache commands access a locally stored cache of data (thus the name) about available packages. The apt-get commands get data and packages from some other source, defined in your /etc/apt/sources.list file. These other sources might be a local apt archive mirror, a set of Debian install CDs, or an apt archive accessible through the Internet. I tend to use the hell out of the Internet-based archives, personally, though as I roll out more Debian systems at work (knock on wood) I'll want/need to set up an apt archive mirror on the LAN. In any case, as I said, apt-get is used to get data and packages from your defined apt archives (thus the name).
Finally, there's apt-source, which is used to get and install source packages, but we'll ignore that one for now: you can happily get along without that for a long time to come, most likely.
Once you've used apt-cache to figure out what package you want to install, you can use apt-get to install it. For instance, if you want to install abiword, you'd use the following command:
# [b]apt-get install abiword[/b]
The hash mark "#" at the beginning of that line indicates a command prompt that ends with "#" (for most Linux systems, that's the default end-character of a bash prompt when logged in as root), whereas the earlier use of the "$" character indicated that the dollar sign, instead, was the prompt ending character. This is to indicate that, for instance, apt-cache will run as pretty much any user, but apt-get requires administrative rights, and you must thus run it as root.
The apt-get command has a lot more capability than that, however. For instance, if you're [b]get[/b]ting from an Internet-based archive, you'll want to udate your local cache regularly (perhaps daily). To do that, you would (unsurprisingly) use the [b]apt-get update[/b] command, like so:
# [b]apt-get update[/b]
Yes, it's that easy.
The next thing you'll probably want to use is [b]apt-get autoclean[/b], to clear out any older package references in your local cache that are no longer relevant. Finally, there may be new versions available for packages you already have installed. If you're using Debian stable (currently stable is v3.1, aka Sarge), you will almost never find that there are new versions aside from security patches and similarly critical updates, and as such it's a very good idea indeed to check for new package versions with the stable release.
To check for, and install, package updates, you'd use [b]apt-get upgrade[/b]. No additional arguments are needed. As with install, update, and autoclean, above, you have to be root to use the upgrade command.
When you run [b]apt-get upgrade[/b], it will spit out a list of packages that can be upgraded to a newer version. It will then ask whether you want to continue with the upgrade. In general, you should probably just press the Enter key (the question will be followed by [Y/n], indicating that you can answer either with a "y" character or "n" character for "yes" or "no", with the capitalized Y indicating that it's the default so that simply pressing Enter will be the same as entering "y"). This allows it to install all the indicated package upgrades.
You can also choose "n", for "no", of course. If you see some package in there that will upgrade something you don't want upgraded (you'll surely know when you need to choose a "no": it's like the old comment about products without pricetags, where if you have to ask, it's too expensive). If you decide you want to upgrade some packages but not others, you can always learn how to "pin" certain packages, set them to not upgrade, and so on. This is a slightly more complex task than I intend to discuss right now, and is likely unnecessary for you. You can also simply refuse batch upgrades like that and, instead, upgrade one package at a time. Using [b]apt-get install[/b] on a given package can be used to upgrade it if there's an upgrade version available.
To remove packages (the opposite of installing them), you would use [b]apt-get remove[/b] (surprise, surprise), like so:
# [b]apt-get remove openoffice.org[/b]
If you want to get rid of all the configuration files used by that package, you'd use the --purge switch, like this:
# [b]apt-get --purge remove openoffice.org[/b]
I generally recommend doing that, unless you think you'll be reinstalling the package later and will want the same configuration options to apply (after you've changed preferences for the application in question).
That's pretty much it. To search for a package, use apt-cache search. To get more information about it, use apt-cache show. To update your cache, use apt-get update. To install a package, use apt-get install. To remove one, use apt-get remove (or apt-get --purge remove). Et cetera.
There's another tool of immeasurable value, called debfoster, that you might want to install.
# [b]apt-get install debfoster[/b]
As you install packages over time, occasionally run debfoster at the command line (just enter [b]debfoster[/b]). This is used to present you, one at a time, with a list of installed packages that you may want to either keep or remove. This is one way you can avoid having to memorize every single package you have installed on your system in case you might some day want to remove one of them.
It will give you information about each installed package that looks something like this:
[i]bastille is keeping the following 7 packages installed:
libbit-vector-perl libcarp-clan-perl libcurses-perl libdate-calc-perl libnetwork-ipv4addr-perl libunix-syslog-perl psad
Keep bastille? [Ynpsiuqx?], [H]elp:[/i]
To tell it to remove a package (as if you'd entered apt-get --purge remove), press the N key. To keep it, and cause debfoster to not ask you about it next time, either press the Y key or simply press Enter. To get more information about the package before you make a decision, use a question mark (hold down Shift and press the key with / and ? on it, just like you were typing a question mark in a word processor). If you want to skip this one, so that it's not removed but you are asked about it again the next time (something you'd do if you're not sure yet whether you want to keep it), press the S key. For help on how to use the debfoster options, you can use the H key.
All of these options are available to you, as you might notice from the above-quoted output from debfoster. That "[Ynpsiuqx?], [H]elp:" bit gives you a string of letters, plus an H for help, as options. The Help key tells you very briefly what each of those letters does. If you want to quit debfoster without continuing, such as when you've told it to remove something you don't want removed or to keep something you don't want kept, you can use the Q key, then you can start over by running debfoster again.
So, the most important stuff for a beginning Debian user:
apt-cache search
apt-cache show
apt-get update
apt-get upgrade
apt-get install
apt-get remove
debfoster
By the way, if you get results that are too damned long to read easily in your console window from [b]apt-cache search[/b], you might try piping it through a pager, such as less:
[b]apt-cache search editor | less[/b]
Between "editor" and "less" is the "pipe" character, also known as the "vertical bar" to Windows users. It's typically on the same key as the backslash. In bash, the pipe character is used to "pipe" one command's output through another command. Thus, if you want to send the output of a very long list of packages from an apt-cache search to a pager like less so you can scroll up and down through the list, you can use the pipe character to do that. I typed it with spaces between the pipe character and the words on either side, for clarity, but you don't necessarily have to have those spaces there.
I hope that helps.
by raven2
Penguin wings of course,
Thank you for your time and thought. I have printed out the post so I can keep it next to the box. I will get some time soon to work on the system, I am really looking forward to having a Linux internet connection and some exploring time.
by filker0
Not even Visio can do all of those -- I use Visio on a fairly regular basis, and find that it will arbitrarily decide to reroute my connectors, ignore text label formatting (above/below/middle on connector labels), or move whole blocks of my diagram to odd places (sometimes out of the viewable area). It does this most often when I read a saved document in, but sometimes while I'm editing a diagram. Further, it sometimes decides that I've got a sharing violation when I try to save my file to another name, forcing me to update my original drawing. Other times, it just refuses to write the diagram to either the original file or to a new one, local or network drive might make a difference, but once it decides not to write on one, it doesn't write on the other, either.
Visio is a good tool, but it's got more bugs than it ought to, and MS seems to be more interested in making it bigger (adding features) than making the existing features, and the program as a whole, work consistently and reliably.
by apotheon
Ahem. Thanks, I think.
I'm glad that was of use. I'm here if you need more help.
by filker0
If the IT infrastructure is based on Microsoft technology and if they've been trying to keep up with Microsoft's tools, migration to non-Linux clients (or servers, for that matter) may be more difficult, as MS tends to lock you into their technology in subtle ways. Even something as simple as HTML pages that have been edited by FrontPage may contain mark-up that presents differently on MSIE vs. all other browsers even after you've turned off all of the browser-specific settings in FrontPage. Any application that depends on .NET, Active-X, XSLT, or MS specific JScript or SQL to perform client/server operations will have to be carefully clensed and tested.
The best strategy for an enterprise wishing to migrate from MS to Open Source is to first migrate the back-end apps, one at a time where possible. Once the back-end is non-MS, the client ({desk,lap}top) can follow. Each application can be weaned from MS-specific technology, and only when all of them are weaned can the deployed enterprise client systems be switched over wholesale.
In a large enterprise, this is expensive and may take a lot of time. In my opinion, it's worth it. A CTO at a company, or the head of IT if that's not the CTO, must always be aware that a decision to adopt a proprietary "innovation", such as .net or some of the stuff being pushed for Longhorn may lock the enterprise into that vendors solution for the long haul.
Disengaging from a proprietary technology that has insinuated itself througout your enterprise will always be costly and painful.
by wboyland1
by filker0
Shortly before 1986 (1981-1985) I worked for DEC (Digital Equipment Corp.), and they had a few Unix versions -- Ultrix 32, and Ultrix 16. Later they had OSF/1 and True64, I believe. In any case, I can't imagine that there was an OS that was a cross between Unix and DOS at that time named "dec".
DEC had a number of other operating systems that don't really meet your description. What kind of hardware did this OS that you remember run on?
DEC also had an OS called VMS; could that be the one you're thinking of?
DEC was purchased by Compaq (late 90's?), which merged with Hewlett-Packard last year. The VMS operating system was overhauled (during the Compaq years?) into OpenVMS. I believe most of the DEC product lines were allowed to die, living on only through third-party maintenance contracts.
by filker0
OpenVMS was developed before the Compaq take-over; it was developed in the process of porting VMS to the DEC Alpha processor. Previous versions of VMS (or VAX-VMS) were VAX processor specific.
Other DEC supported operating systems: RT-11, RSX-11 (S, M, M-Plus), IAS, POS, RSTS/E, Vax-Elan (embedded), Tops-20. I suppose I ought to include OS/8 and WPS/8 as well. They had CP/M / MS-DOS based systems as well.
None of the above were particularly Unix like.
The DECUS library contained a number of tools that let you create a Unix-like environment on various non-Unix PDP-11 and VAX operating systems, and there was a supported Unix-like environment that ran under VMS, giving a greater level of compatibility. I don't recall the name of the product, but the Configure tool checks for it and comments favorably when it determines that you're not using it.
by raven2
And the winner is Hardware.
The current state is a Debian Linux install that will take me to the console, but gives me a blank screen with gnome. I will try reinstall of gnome.
gnome works with a Live CD of Ubunto.
I may try clearing out gnome and going with kde.
The video card I am using is a Mach 64, I have a S3Virge available to try. Do I need something with more video RAM? 16m 32m 64m what works?
by apotheon
You could always try a minimal install of Debian from the very beginning, without using tasksel, aptitude, or anything else to install anything more than the base system during OS install. Then, when you can boot to a console, use apt-get to start installing the software you want to use. It's a little more advanced to do it that way than to let tasksel install whatever it thinks is appropriate for a "desktop" system (for instance), but it has always worked for me, and makes me much happier with the end product than I would be with some other schmuck's wildest guesses as to what a common end-user might like.
You should be able to run a Debian install, even with GNOME or KDE, on 8MB of RAM. If it's not running properly, your problem is something else.
by raven2
I will clean off the partitions and try this. I am using old hardware, and am somewhat leary of hardware conflicts / issues.
To put this on record. Celeron 300a, Abit BH6 MB, 128k RAM, 13GB HD, Mach64 video, generic ethernet card, Cl Soundblaster 16 audio card, floppy, and CD Rom.
The video card appears to be ok on the Linux hardware lists, but some folks seem to have had couple of problems.
I have parts for another system: either a Celeron 533 or a Pentium 3 600, Abit BE6 MB, 2 4GB HDS,up to 256 RAM, a Nvidia AGP 128 video card, other bits and pieces.
I am not sure of any of the parts, most appear to be good, however . . . ?
by dmarston
This thread (and countless others like it) is a prime example of why Linux (any and all distros) will never become the dominate O.S. for everyday users.
With all its power and configurability comes it's weakness. Let's face it, Aunt Betty and her quilt knitting friends will NEVER edit config files or compile source code. Nor do they want to! (The same can be said of most business users, the Accountants, Salesmen, H.R. folks, etc. etc.)
Like you said, average users want to be able to turn it on, read email, print pictures, and create documents. M$ Windoze and Mac accomplish this flawlessly. RedHat is getting closer to this level of "newbie proof", but even RH needs tweaking to get everything to work right. And unless you?re a geek, most Linux documentation might as well be written in Swahili. (Ironically, in some distros you have to be a geek even to find the documentation by using the CLI MAN commands)
A while back I read a piece about some guy trying to print to a shared printer (on XP), it went on to describe his efforts digging through the documentation, setting up SAMBA, dealing with dependencies, etc. until he got it working.
Super! He got it working!
Unfortunately, he left Aunt Betty WAAYYY back there somewhere in the MAN pages; Way before he figured out he needed SAMBA, let alone figuring out dependency trees.
If Little O?l Betty can?t just "point and click" and have it work, she WILL use something else.
The same thing goes for installing applications. In Windoze, you put the disc in, double click ?setup.exe? and it auto-magically does its thing. Linux users have to deal with dependencies, Tar balls / RPMs /packages, kernel versions, compiling from source, etc. etc. etc.
So herein lies the point; If (and only if) Linux programmers start thinking about Aunt Betty and her book club buddies, Linux will always be for "Geeks Only".
YES, Linux is better
YES, Linux is more secure
YES, Linux is cool
YES, M$ Windoze sucks
NO, Linux (as is) can not, and will not become mainstream.
So, To all developers (and end users who influence developers);
Just because some functionality can be added in, doesn?t mean that is should be added in.
Get a picture of the most computer illiterate person you know, tape it on your monitor, and with every piece of your software ask yourself? would (insert name) understand this??
Think about USEABILITY first! Then you can give the options for advanced functionality and tuning. Just because your printing software can support 14 different formats, doesn?t mean the end user should have to choose among them (Aunt Betty would be lost with such a choice, and would give up long before digging through documentation)! If the printer hooked to the computer can only use format # 3, then show (and default) to format # 3!
Aunt Betty has no clue what any of these things mean or do, and she DOESN?T CARE! She wants to print this weeks quilt pattern. That?s it, Period. Whether or not this driver supports 47 different configurations or not, is absolutely irrelevant to her.
(This applies to ALL software, I know I?m picking on printing, but only because it illustrates the point well)
Once your software is ?Aunt Betty proof?, and accomplishes its primary goal (i.e. the printer auto-magically prints), then you can make the advanced features available through either config files or plug-ins or whatever.
Secondly, make the documentation ?Aunt Betty proof? by using plain English and make it easy to find!
Thirdly, Make installers that include everything your software needs to run!
If you can?t grab it off the shelf, rip off the shrink-wrap, and install it, neither will Aunt Betty!
Well, that?s my rant.. :P
by apotheon
When you've supported as many end-users trying to install Windows from scratch, or trying to resolve issues when hardware gets replaced, as I have, then perhaps you'll realize that Windows is at best no better than Linux for issues like this.
"[i]Aunt Betty and her quilt knitting friends will NEVER edit config files or compile source code.[/i]"
They'll never hack the Windows Registry, flash BIOS, or resolve driver conflicts through the Device Manager, either. The real difference is in the fact that it's harder to find vendors that sell complete systems with Linux pre-installed and pre-configured.
"[i]in some distros you have to be a geek even to find the documentation by using the CLI MAN commands[/i]"
Funny, I never realized you had to be a "geek" to type "man" and hit the Enter key. That's news to me. In any case, I'd rather have obscure documentation than none at all.
"[i]A while back I read a piece about some guy trying to print to a shared printer (on XP), it went on to describe his efforts digging through the documentation, setting up SAMBA, dealing with dependencies, etc.[/i]"
Funny, with Red Hat using KDE (for instance), I just click Control Center > System > Printing Manager and use the GUI printing configuration tool; this is very like the way Windows handles it. On Mandrake with KDE it's slightly more complex: I open the Mandrake menu and go to System > Configuration > Configure Your Computer > Hardware > Printers (which is made a little more obvious by the fact that the icon for Hardware shows a printer). It's similarly easy in GNOME. While I wouldn't throw a user who'd only used Windows previously into CLI printing configuration without waterwings, even it is not too difficult on distributions like Debian (my favorite).
"[i]The same thing goes for installing applications. In Windoze, you put the disc in, double click 'setup.exe' and it auto-magically does its thing.[/i]"
Jeez, that sounds pretty much like a pain in the arse. You have to have a CD? I just type "apt-get install [packagename]" in Debian, or "urpmi [packagename]" in Mandrake, or "yum install [packagename]" in Fedora Core, and it installs, dependencies and all. Even better, unlike with Windows applications, installing a new one using "apt-get install" doesn't tend to break other applications that use some of the same libraries (DLLs in Windows-speak).
"[i]Just because some functionality can be added in, doesn?t mean that is should be added in.[/i]"
Gee, I've been saying that about Microsoft for years, and they're still not listening to little old me. Next time you decide to say something like that, maybe you should have a look at the broken-ass mess of "features" that MS calls "Office" first.
"[i]Once your software is ?Aunt Betty proof?, and accomplishes its primary goal (i.e. the printer auto-magically prints), then you can make the advanced features available through either config files or plug-ins or whatever.[/i]"
Well, good. Then we're done. See above, re: KDE and GNOME configuration of printing. By the way, "config files . . . or whatever" is what's going on behind the scenes, just as Windows Registry settings, MIME type configuration, DLL dependencies, and so on are going on behind the scenes when you configure printers for Windows. This isn't "extra functionality" that gets added on later. This is what makes it all work in the first place. The point of using plain text config files rather than a Windows Registry is to make it easier for an expert to troubleshoot when Aunt Betty completely screws something up.
"[i]Make installers that include everything your software needs to run![/i]"
Ooh, bloat. Good plan. More complexity. Less secure software is fun. More broken software is fun. Oh, yeah, and even Windows doesn't do this as much as you think. Luckily, unlike Windows, major Linux distributions provide massive software package repositories that allow you to ignore things like dependencies and just say "install this thing", and it installs and automagically works. I'm guessing you haven't actually tried this stuff out, though.
"[i]If you can?t grab it off the shelf, rip off the shrink-wrap, and install it,[/i]"
Why would I want to do all that? I can just skip the "grab it off the shelf" and "rip off the shrink-wrap" steps and go straight to "install it".
by raven2
The first automobiles were a hodgepodge of sometimes weird control systems. Aircraft were more complex and featured some tweaky ideas.
Computers speak binary, and if you think about it there are at least 6 levels of translation between the average user and the place where things are really happening. Everything inbetween is "virtural".
We have focused on a concept of performance because what has driven the development is largely the visual interactive part of the pardigm. And not the, "Here is a very usable system that has a word processor and email functions that is secure, robust, and self repairing." idea. If just 10% of the money and sweat that has been used to develop games was put into the second goal we would have an "Aunt Betty" system available for $9.99 at your local store.
Linux is not for the mainstream for the same reasons that learning to fly is not for the mainstream. Is Aunt Betty a pilot? Would you trust her in a cockpit, shoot, do you trust her behind the wheel of a car?
Linux is growing up. There will be wrong turns, incorrect decision, and problems. If you have the inclination join those who are trying it out. At least we do not have broken bones when our "follies" crash.
The world is becoming more complex, partially because of computers. What we dream today becomes our reality.
by apotheon
by joeaaa22
This discussion is closed to new replies.
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